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BUITA.BU.EDU!nat%drao.nrc.CDN%ean.ubc.ca
From: nat%drao.nrc....@BUITA.BU.EDU (Natalie Prowse)
Newsgroups: comp.society.futures
Subject: long-distance monitoring
Message-ID: <48*nat@drao.nrc.cdn>
Date: 14 Apr 88 02:30:00 GMT
Sender: dae...@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: The Internet
Lines: 16

It has recently come to my attention (from a very reliable source), that
long-distance phone calls from Canada to the U.S. are monitored.  According
to my source, a U.S. agency runs several Crays which do speech recognition
and analysis, monitoring calls between Canada and the U.S. (and other 
countries too, I would suppose).  This  system searches for specific 
keywords and records conversations which contain information which would
be of interest to this (and other?) government agencies.  Having not been on 
the net that long, I am curious as to whether or not this has been discussed 
before.  Is it true, partially true, or a complete falsehood (an "urban myth")??  
It certainly is possible, which disturbs me greatly.

If it is true, will my message be intercepted on the net, and never reach 
this list??.....

					Natalie Prowse
				Dominion Radio Astrophisical Observatory
				Penticton, B.C., Canada

Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att-cb!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!mailrus!ames!pasteur!ucbvax!BU-CS.BU.EDU!bzs
From: b...@BU-CS.BU.EDU (Barry Shein)
Newsgroups: comp.society.futures
Subject: long-distance monitoring
Message-ID: <8804151949.AA15453@bu-cs.bu.edu>
Date: 15 Apr 88 19:49:27 GMT
References: <8804151130.aa03631@note.nsf.gov>
Sender: dae...@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: The Internet
Lines: 16


I suppose part of the problem for NSA et al is not so much hiding the
fact that they are doing such snooping but hiding any actions they are
taking based upon such information (for historical reference, the US
and Britain decided to not take some actions in WWII that had some
fairly serious consequences because it would lead Germany to the
inescapable conclusion that their codes had been cracked, I think this
happened with Japan also.)

Sure, some things can be done, but at some point taking action against
citizens or other agencies might lead to the question of how certain
information was obtained. It seems like a tightrope walk, either you
tip your hand or you limit yourself to only use information which
doesn't tip your hand as to how you got it.

	-Barry Shein, Boston University

Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!isishq!doug
From: doug@isishq.UUCP (Doug Thompson)
Newsgroups: comp.society.futures
Subject: Re: long-distance monitoring
Message-ID: <39.22719274@isishq.UUCP>
Date: 24 Apr 88 04:59:56 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 221/162 - ISIS International, Waterloo ON
Lines: 79


 
 UN>From: nat%drao.nrc....@BUITA.BU.EDU (Natalie Prowse) 
 
 UN>It has recently come to my attention (from a very reliable source), 
 UN>that 
 UN>long-distance phone calls from Canada to the U.S. are monitored. 
 
Interesting. If you have it from a *reliable* source you probably know 
more about it than anyone else :-) -- what's the source? 
 
 UN> According 
 UN>to my source, a U.S. agency runs several Crays which do speech 
 UN>recognition 
 UN>and analysis, monitoring calls between Canada and the U.S. (and 
 UN>other  
 UN>countries too, I would suppose).  This  system searches for specific 
 UN>keywords and records conversations which contain information 
 UN>which would 
 UN>be of interest to this (and other?) government agencies.  Having 
 UN>not been on  
 UN>the net that long, I am curious as to whether or not this has 
 UN>been discussed  
 UN>before.  Is it true, partially true, or a complete falsehood 
 UN>(an "urban myth")??   
 UN>It certainly is possible, which disturbs me greatly. 
 
Well, I've heard lots of talk of this, and often  from people with the 
U.S. *.mil arpa addresses. They were talking about the net being 
monitored. Clearly, it's not all that hard to do. A while back, some 
people started deliberately filling their signature files with USSR, 
ASSASSIN, HIJACK, etc. etc. etc., with the explicit intention of 
swamping any such monitoring device. 
 
Whether there is deliberate spying or not, I think you have to be aware 
that unless you have a good encryption system, there is no such thing as 
a private message in the net. System administrators can (and do) read 
msgs on their way through. 
 
I try to take the approach of never saying anything I wouldn't be 
prepared to repeat in any situation. What bothers me about security 
surveillance is the lack of checks and balances. What I'm confident 
would be acceptable discource among most of my countrymen may not be 
acceptable to some NSA fellow if it happens to involve such subversive 
ideas as fostering good relations with other countries, such as the 
USSR, or preserving Canadian independence against American cultural 
aggression. To you or me these might be pretty innocent ideas, but 
imagine what an Ollie North could do with them! 
 
 UN>If it is true, will my message be intercepted on the net, and 
 UN>never reach  
 UN>this list??..... 
 UN> 
 UN>                                        Natalie Prowse 
 UN>                                Dominion Radio Astrophisical 
 UN>Observatory 
 UN>                                Penticton, B.C., Canada 
 UN> 
 
Well, it got to Waterloo, but of course didn't have to cross the border 
to do it. No, they wouldn't likely intercept, just put you on a list to 
watch, and if you ever applied for certain kinds of jobs . . .  
 
Moscow Washington Communist Capitalist Cuba El Salvador Nicaragua Arms Legs 
 
-- Well, that should trip the Cray :-) -- if anybody *is* listening, 
drop us a line and join the fun :-) 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Fido      1:221/162 -- 1:221/0                         280 Phillip St.,   
UUCP:     !watmath!isishq!doug                         Unit B-3-11 
                                                       Waterloo, Ontario 
Bitnet:   fido@water                                   Canada  N2L 3X1 
Internet: do...@isishq.math.waterloo.edu                (519) 746-5022 
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

---
 * Origin: ISIS International H.Q. (II) (Opus 1:221/162)
SEEN-BY: 221/0 162 172 

Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!tada
From: ta...@athena.mit.edu (Michael Zehr)
Newsgroups: comp.society.futures
Subject: Re: long-distance monitoring
Message-ID: <4848@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Date: 25 Apr 88 03:36:32 GMT
References: <39.22719274@isishq.UUCP>
Sender: dae...@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: ta...@athena.mit.edu (Michael Zehr)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Lines: 18

In article <39.22719274@isishq.UUCP> doug@isishq.UUCP (Doug Thompson) writes:
> 
>Well, I've heard lots of talk of this, and often  from people with the 
>U.S. *.mil arpa addresses. They were talking about the net being 
>monitored. Clearly, it's not all that hard to do. A while back, some 
>people started deliberately filling their signature files with USSR, 
>ASSASSIN, HIJACK, etc. etc. etc., with the explicit intention of 
>swamping any such monitoring device. 

I've noticed this too, and I've oftened wondered exactly what those
people were trying to do.  Presumably, they object to the US form of
government and want to see America infiltrated/weakened/whatever.
So, to those of you out there who do this: am I right?  Or won't you
admit to being anti-US?  

(Yes I realize I'm going to get flames about this... I'm expecting
it.)
-michael j zehr

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CGL.UCSF.EDU!hoptoad.UUCP!gnu
From: hoptoad.UUCP!g...@CGL.UCSF.EDU (John Gilmore)
Newsgroups: comp.society.futures
Subject: Re: long-distance monitoring / NSA monitoring
Message-ID: <8804271048.AA05139@hop.toad.com>
Date: 27 Apr 88 10:48:57 GMT
References: <39.22719274@isishq.UUCP> <4848@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Sender: dae...@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: The Internet
Lines: 38

ta...@athena.mit.edu (Michael Zehr) wrote:
[discussion about NSA monitoring of phone calls, keywords on the nets, etc]
> I've noticed this too, and I've oftened wondered exactly what those
> people were trying to do.  Presumably, they object to the US form of
> government and want to see America infiltrated/weakened/whatever.

I was one of the people who started this.  Yes, I object to the US form
of government, the form that makes the government think it has the
right to spy on anybody (its own citizens, foreigners, it doesn't
care).  I want to see America strengthened, not weakened, though.  I
think an America where the government actively published cryptographic
research would be stronger -- what if we had a U.S.D.A. of crypto,
where you would send in a soil sample and they would tell you a good
kind of crypto to use on it, with references to your local public
library books.  And you could believe them!  [What an amazing idea,
being able to believe what government representatives tell you!  It's
almost as radical as believing that the cop down the block is your
friend.  Was this ever true?  It sure isn't today.]  Suppose the NSA was
constantly testing your communications security, but when they found
that they could decode what you were sending, they would tell you, so
you could fix it?  This is the model we try to hold up to young system
crackers, but we spend literally untold millions of dollars of tax
money building an agency for cracking security -- which uses the
information for its own benefit, with no benefit to the public or the
owners of the information.

I think an America where its citizens did not have to fear the
intrusion of the government into their personal business would be
stronger.  I think that an open society, with a free interchange of
ideas, is stronger than a society where what you are allowed to know is
limited by what they think you need to know.  I think that an open
market is stronger than export controls, protect-you-from-yourself
laws, and government price-fixing of RAM chips and drugs.  I want to
see America infiltrated by people like the Foundling Fathers, who
thought hard about the dangers in centralized power [having experienced
it first-hand], and who designed and built a society that intelligently
weighs the benefits of central control against the risks.

Does that answer your question?

Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!tada
From: ta...@athena.mit.edu (Michael Zehr)
Newsgroups: comp.society.futures
Subject: Re: long-distance monitoring
Message-ID: <4930@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Date: 28 Apr 88 00:18:49 GMT
References: <39.22719274@isishq.UUCP> <4848@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <453@white.gcm>
Sender: dae...@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: ta...@athena.mit.edu (Michael Zehr)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Lines: 4
Summary: sorry folks


Sorry for my posting.  I didn't think about it in advance and thus didn't
realize it was inappropriate.
-michael j zehr

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