From:  Nathan Aherne 
Subject:  [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 18:05:45 +1000 

Hi All,

I am not sure who to offer this to.

As a newbie to Paparazzi I have experienced many issues with using Paparazzi. I 
am not new to Linux and I am not new to coding but I am new to the Paparazzi 
code. The biggest issues I have had with using Paparazzi (which are the same as 
almost every newbie) are documentation and understanding of the Paparazzi 
autopilot. Even adding a Getting Started Section where new people can get 
started would be great. The other things that would have helped me are better 
documentation of the underlying code so I can understand for instance what 
NavSetGroundReferenceHere() does (and all other user callable routines) and 
examples of XML code for flight plans etc. Something that would have helped me 
more was a forum instead of a mailing list to search, because a forum makes 
more logical sense when reading it. Having a forum also allows other newbies to 
help each other.

To summarise - The biggest barriers to newbies is the huge learning curve 
required to get a working Paparazzi system.

I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our hosting 
and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for example 
Dekiwiki. If the devs want to take up my offer, please contact me on this email 
address and we can work out the details. Maybe this is not what you want, if 
you have any other ideas on how I can say thanks and help you attract new 
users, I am all ears.

Please don't take the above as criticism of anything. I am offering because if 
you had not offered Paparazzi as a free product, then I would have spent a 
fortune on a [vendor name] and been sorely disappointed, so you saved me from 
spending a fortune and being disappointed, but not from being frustrated. I 
believe Paparazzi is the best Autopilot available, but the barriers to entry 
are so high that people are getting scared away from using it and its such a 
terrible travesty when that happens.

Kindest regards,
 
Nathan Aherne
Reddog Technology
Web: www.reddog.com.au
Email: address@hidden
Mob: 0402 555 080

From:  antoine drouin 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 10:24:46 +0200 

> [...]
> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our hosting 
> and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for example 
> Dekiwiki.
>

Is the current wiki ( http://paparazzi.enac.fr ) mediawiki not a real
wiki ? or what feature do you think it misses ?

Poine

From:  Nathan Aherne 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 18:31:47 +1000 

Hi Poine,

I am not sure what you are adding to the conversation other than being 
unconstructive? To answer your question, Mediwiki is not a real wiki in the 
sense that its not easy to use and its features are limited. Whats the point of 
something if its hard to use and has limited features?

Kindest regards,
 
Nathan Aherne
Reddog Technology
Web: www.reddog.com.au
Email: address@hidden
Mob: 0402 555 080

On 03/05/2010, at 6:24 PM, antoine drouin wrote:

>> [...]
>> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our 
>> hosting and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for 
>> example Dekiwiki.
>> 
> 
> Is the current wiki ( http://paparazzi.enac.fr ) mediawiki not a real
> wiki ? or what feature do you think it misses ?
> 
> Poine
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel

From:  antoine drouin 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 10:36:39 +0200 

it was a genuine question and I do not have the impression of being
unconstructive. I was genuinly asking what "feature" do you think it
misses and in which sense do you find it hard to use

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
> Hi Poine,
>
> I am not sure what you are adding to the conversation other than being 
> unconstructive? To answer your question, Mediwiki is not a real wiki in the 
> sense that its not easy to use and its features are limited. Whats the point 
> of something if its hard to use and has limited features?
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Nathan Aherne
> Reddog Technology
> Web: www.reddog.com.au
> Email: address@hidden
> Mob: 0402 555 080
>
> On 03/05/2010, at 6:24 PM, antoine drouin wrote:
>
>>> [...]
>>> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our 
>>> hosting and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for 
>>> example Dekiwiki.
>>>
>>
>> Is the current wiki ( http://paparazzi.enac.fr ) mediawiki not a real
>> wiki ? or what feature do you think it misses ?
>>
>> Poine
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>

From:  Nathan Aherne 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 18:43:32 +1000 

Now you have said it that way:

Its hard to use and could do with a simpler layout, it has many features 
missing and does not look pretty. The whole setup of the Paparazzi Website is 
confusing.

Maybe I should use an analogy - Ubuntu is based on Debian but which one has 
done more for Linux? Answer: Ubuntu. 

The reason it has done more for Linux is that it looks easier to use, it is 
easier to use and looks more professional, plus it has a community behind it 
that actively helps newbies. Those newbies in turn help other newbies and the 
project grows from there.

Kindest regards,
 
Nathan Aherne
Reddog Technology
Web: www.reddog.com.au
Email: address@hidden
Mob: 0402 555 080

On 03/05/2010, at 6:36 PM, antoine drouin wrote:

> it was a genuine question and I do not have the impression of being
> unconstructive. I was genuinly asking what "feature" do you think it
> misses and in which sense do you find it hard to use
> 
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>> Hi Poine,
>> 
>> I am not sure what you are adding to the conversation other than being 
>> unconstructive? To answer your question, Mediwiki is not a real wiki in the 
>> sense that its not easy to use and its features are limited. Whats the point 
>> of something if its hard to use and has limited features?
>> 
>> Kindest regards,
>> 
>> Nathan Aherne
>> Reddog Technology
>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>> Email: address@hidden
>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>> 
>> On 03/05/2010, at 6:24 PM, antoine drouin wrote:
>> 
>>>> [...]
>>>> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our 
>>>> hosting and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for 
>>>> example Dekiwiki.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Is the current wiki ( http://paparazzi.enac.fr ) mediawiki not a real
>>> wiki ? or what feature do you think it misses ?
>>> 
>>> Poine
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> address@hidden
>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel

From:  CÚdric Marzer 
Subject:  RE: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 11:17:52 +0200 

Dear Nathan,
If you read through  the posts you will notice that many people offered to
make new forums, new wikis, etc. They put some time into putting it online
and...nobody used it...
The system as it is now has its weaknesses but works very well and all the
information can be found at one place.
Yes the learning curve is steep but we are not talking about a wordprocessor
here but about a system that is much more complex in essence. 
Actually I found it rather easy to make it work in comparaison with systems
I used before and it flew ok the first time I was in the air. You just have
to read carefully the wiki and understand what you are doing. 
To make it short : the people that have experience with the paparazzi like
it and the idea is not to offer a "plug and play" system anyway...
Good luck with your system and don't hesitate to post any question if you
need.

From:  Nathan Aherne 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 19:28:46 +1000 

Hi Cedric,

I thought this may have been the case, thanks for clarifying the Paparazzi Dev 
stance.

Does someone have a document that outlines all the user callable routines in 
the XML configuration files and what they do because I am really stuck on this.

Kindest regards,
 
Nathan Aherne
Reddog Technology
Web: www.reddog.com.au
Email: address@hidden
Mob: 0402 555 080

On 03/05/2010, at 7:17 PM, CÚdric Marzer wrote:

> Dear Nathan,
> If you read through  the posts you will notice that many people offered to
> make new forums, new wikis, etc. They put some time into putting it online
> and...nobody used it...
> The system as it is now has its weaknesses but works very well and all the
> information can be found at one place.
> Yes the learning curve is steep but we are not talking about a wordprocessor
> here but about a system that is much more complex in essence. 
> Actually I found it rather easy to make it work in comparaison with systems
> I used before and it flew ok the first time I was in the air. You just have
> to read carefully the wiki and understand what you are doing. 
> To make it short : the people that have experience with the paparazzi like
> it and the idea is not to offer a "plug and play" system anyway...
> Good luck with your system and don't hesitate to post any question if you
> need.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel

From:  antoine drouin 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 11:38:59 +0200 

Nathan

I don't want to discourage you and I'd be glad if you make the wiki
"better", whatever that means.
If you're going to switch to another wiki, it's fine with me, but I
think the amount of work involved in migrating is important.
What I would like to avoid is that the information gets spread in
different places.

I don't think there is a documentation for all the user callable
flight plan routines - and they get added by people writing navigation
modules.
You're very welcome to ask questions on the list and write a wiki page
about that. I think the authors will be pleased to answer your
questions,
and maybe once the documentation is in place they'll update it as they
add new functions.

Regards

Poine


On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
> Hi Cedric,
>
> I thought this may have been the case, thanks for clarifying the Paparazzi 
> Dev stance.
>
> Does someone have a document that outlines all the user callable routines in 
> the XML configuration files and what they do because I am really stuck on 
> this.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Nathan Aherne
> Reddog Technology
> Web: www.reddog.com.au
> Email: address@hidden
> Mob: 0402 555 080
>
> On 03/05/2010, at 7:17 PM, CÚdric Marzer wrote:
>
>> Dear Nathan,
>> If you read through  the posts you will notice that many people offered to
>> make new forums, new wikis, etc. They put some time into putting it online
>> and...nobody used it...
>> The system as it is now has its weaknesses but works very well and all the
>> information can be found at one place.
>> Yes the learning curve is steep but we are not talking about a wordprocessor
>> here but about a system that is much more complex in essence.
>> Actually I found it rather easy to make it work in comparaison with systems
>> I used before and it flew ok the first time I was in the air. You just have
>> to read carefully the wiki and understand what you are doing.
>> To make it short : the people that have experience with the paparazzi like
>> it and the idea is not to offer a "plug and play" system anyway...
>> Good luck with your system and don't hesitate to post any question if you
>> need.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>

From:  Nathan Aherne 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 19:57:43 +1000 

Hi All

I have tried to add pages to the wiki and I have tried to add documents and 
link to them but I have not been able to get it to work. This is why I am 
frustrated with the current Paparazzi website and offered to donate time, money 
etc to the community so over time it can be fixed.

I should clarify that I never wanted to build a community of my own, that was 
not the goal, I just wanted to donate stuff to the Paparazzi community if they 
wanted to attract more new users.

Kindest regards,
 
Nathan Aherne
Reddog Technology
Web: www.reddog.com.au
Email: address@hidden
Mob: 0402 555 080

On 03/05/2010, at 7:38 PM, antoine drouin wrote:

> Nathan
> 
> I don't want to discourage you and I'd be glad if you make the wiki
> "better", whatever that means.
> If you're going to switch to another wiki, it's fine with me, but I
> think the amount of work involved in migrating is important.
> What I would like to avoid is that the information gets spread in
> different places.
> 
> I don't think there is a documentation for all the user callable
> flight plan routines - and they get added by people writing navigation
> modules.
> You're very welcome to ask questions on the list and write a wiki page
> about that. I think the authors will be pleased to answer your
> questions,
> and maybe once the documentation is in place they'll update it as they
> add new functions.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Poine
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>> Hi Cedric,
>> 
>> I thought this may have been the case, thanks for clarifying the Paparazzi 
>> Dev stance.
>> 
>> Does someone have a document that outlines all the user callable routines in 
>> the XML configuration files and what they do because I am really stuck on 
>> this.
>> 
>> Kindest regards,
>> 
>> Nathan Aherne
>> Reddog Technology
>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>> Email: address@hidden
>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>> 
>> On 03/05/2010, at 7:17 PM, CÚdric Marzer wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear Nathan,
>>> If you read through  the posts you will notice that many people offered to
>>> make new forums, new wikis, etc. They put some time into putting it online
>>> and...nobody used it...
>>> The system as it is now has its weaknesses but works very well and all the
>>> information can be found at one place.
>>> Yes the learning curve is steep but we are not talking about a wordprocessor
>>> here but about a system that is much more complex in essence.
>>> Actually I found it rather easy to make it work in comparaison with systems
>>> I used before and it flew ok the first time I was in the air. You just have
>>> to read carefully the wiki and understand what you are doing.
>>> To make it short : the people that have experience with the paparazzi like
>>> it and the idea is not to offer a "plug and play" system anyway...
>>> Good luck with your system and don't hesitate to post any question if you
>>> need.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> address@hidden
>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel

From:  Chris Gough 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 22:21:20 +1000 

Nathan,

Hi there neighbor, I'm just down the road in Canberra; but I'm coming
from a similar place to you in more ways than one. I'm also a Linux
veteran with 10+ years in software development. Unlike many Paparazzi
users, I don't have a background in electronics, aeronautical
engineering, control theory or embedded systems. My paparazzi journey
has been a steep learning curve. I don't interpret this as a
deficiency in the documentation or communications technology, it's
because it's hard. Just because it's Linux software doesn't make me an
expert, I enjoy the challenge.

The paparazzi developers do enough by continuing to improve this great
free software that works. The debian packaging and documentation are
convenient for me, and the community provides generous support. I
couldn't ask for any more from them, thank you!

If you want to push paparazzi "across the chasm" of technology
adoption from experts (and determined geeks) to FPV pilots, AP
enthusiasts and others with less technical capacity, it will take a
lot more than new wiki features and a some HOWTO documents. Playing
devil's advocate, why should anyone bother? what's in it for the
existing Paparazzi community?

An online training program might help new users up the curve. More
packaging and distribution work on live CDs or VirtualBox images might
lower the bar. Done right, those are significant efforts. Why not just
explain what the user callable routines do in the wiki? Or chuck a few
shrimps on the barbie and call a meeting of the East Australian
Paparazzi Fan Club - I'll be there with bells on.

Chris Gough

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am not sure who to offer this to.
>
> As a newbie to Paparazzi I have experienced many issues with using Paparazzi. 
> I am not new to Linux and I am not new to coding but I am new to the 
> Paparazzi code. The biggest issues I have had with using Paparazzi (which are 
> the same as almost every newbie) are documentation and understanding of the 
> Paparazzi autopilot. Even adding a Getting Started Section where new people 
> can get started would be great. The other things that would have helped me 
> are better documentation of the underlying code so I can understand for 
> instance what NavSetGroundReferenceHere() does (and all other user callable 
> routines) and examples of XML code for flight plans etc. Something that would 
> have helped me more was a forum instead of a mailing list to search, because 
> a forum makes more logical sense when reading it. Having a forum also allows 
> other newbies to help each other.
>
> To summarise - The biggest barriers to newbies is the huge learning curve 
> required to get a working Paparazzi system.
>
> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our hosting 
> and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for example 
> Dekiwiki. If the devs want to take up my offer, please contact me on this 
> email address and we can work out the details. Maybe this is not what you 
> want, if you have any other ideas on how I can say thanks and help you 
> attract new users, I am all ears.
>
> Please don't take the above as criticism of anything. I am offering because 
> if you had not offered Paparazzi as a free product, then I would have spent a 
> fortune on a Micropilot and been sorely disappointed, so you saved me from 
> spending a fortune and being disappointed, but not from being frustrated. I 
> believe Paparazzi is the best Autopilot available, but the barriers to entry 
> are so high that people are getting scared away from using it and its such a 
> terrible travesty when that happens.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Nathan Aherne
> Reddog Technology
> Web: www.reddog.com.au
> Email: address@hidden
> Mob: 0402 555 080
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>

From:  Nathan Aherne 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 22:42:43 +1000 

Hi Chris,

Howdy neighbour! I bet you its cold down there at the moment?

What about a bootable USB drive? Its simpler than a virtual machine and its 
updatable unlike the CD.

I think some people took what I said as a chip at the developers or me telling 
people how to run the project. This was never my intention. There were a number 
of places I was coming from when I wrote that email:

There is a large learning curve for new people. I think technical people often 
forget how hard it is for non technical people to "get it".

UAVs are a very fast growing sector of the aviation industry (maybe even the 
fastest) and more and more private companies are going to want to use them. 
When the person with the money (usually the manager) looks at a project they do 
not see the code or the possibilities they see a look and feel (what they call 
professionalism). The only thing they have to get that look and feel is the 
Paparazzi website. Ardupilot, Attopilot, Micropilot, MNAV all have websites 
that look much better than the Paparazzi code.

Kindest regards,
 
Nathan Aherne
Reddog Technology
Web: www.reddog.com.au
Email: address@hidden
Mob: 0402 555 080

On 03/05/2010, at 10:21 PM, Chris Gough wrote:

> Nathan,
> 
> Hi there neighbor, I'm just down the road in Canberra; but I'm coming
> from a similar place to you in more ways than one. I'm also a Linux
> veteran with 10+ years in software development. Unlike many Paparazzi
> users, I don't have a background in electronics, aeronautical
> engineering, control theory or embedded systems. My paparazzi journey
> has been a steep learning curve. I don't interpret this as a
> deficiency in the documentation or communications technology, it's
> because it's hard. Just because it's Linux software doesn't make me an
> expert, I enjoy the challenge.
> 
> The paparazzi developers do enough by continuing to improve this great
> free software that works. The debian packaging and documentation are
> convenient for me, and the community provides generous support. I
> couldn't ask for any more from them, thank you!
> 
> If you want to push paparazzi "across the chasm" of technology
> adoption from experts (and determined geeks) to FPV pilots, AP
> enthusiasts and others with less technical capacity, it will take a
> lot more than new wiki features and a some HOWTO documents. Playing
> devil's advocate, why should anyone bother? what's in it for the
> existing Paparazzi community?
> 
> An online training program might help new users up the curve. More
> packaging and distribution work on live CDs or VirtualBox images might
> lower the bar. Done right, those are significant efforts. Why not just
> explain what the user callable routines do in the wiki? Or chuck a few
> shrimps on the barbie and call a meeting of the East Australian
> Paparazzi Fan Club - I'll be there with bells on.
> 
> Chris Gough
> 
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> I am not sure who to offer this to.
>> 
>> As a newbie to Paparazzi I have experienced many issues with using 
>> Paparazzi. I am not new to Linux and I am not new to coding but I am new to 
>> the Paparazzi code. The biggest issues I have had with using Paparazzi 
>> (which are the same as almost every newbie) are documentation and 
>> understanding of the Paparazzi autopilot. Even adding a Getting Started 
>> Section where new people can get started would be great. The other things 
>> that would have helped me are better documentation of the underlying code so 
>> I can understand for instance what NavSetGroundReferenceHere() does (and all 
>> other user callable routines) and examples of XML code for flight plans etc. 
>> Something that would have helped me more was a forum instead of a mailing 
>> list to search, because a forum makes more logical sense when reading it. 
>> Having a forum also allows other newbies to help each other.
>> 
>> To summarise - The biggest barriers to newbies is the huge learning curve 
>> required to get a working Paparazzi system.
>> 
>> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our 
>> hosting and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for 
>> example Dekiwiki. If the devs want to take up my offer, please contact me on 
>> this email address and we can work out the details. Maybe this is not what 
>> you want, if you have any other ideas on how I can say thanks and help you 
>> attract new users, I am all ears.
>> 
>> Please don't take the above as criticism of anything. I am offering because 
>> if you had not offered Paparazzi as a free product, then I would have spent 
>> a fortune on a Micropilot and been sorely disappointed, so you saved me from 
>> spending a fortune and being disappointed, but not from being frustrated. I 
>> believe Paparazzi is the best Autopilot available, but the barriers to entry 
>> are so high that people are getting scared away from using it and its such a 
>> terrible travesty when that happens.
>> 
>> Kindest regards,
>> 
>> Nathan Aherne
>> Reddog Technology
>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>> Email: address@hidden
>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel

From:  antoine drouin 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 15:07:15 +0200 

Let's form the Paparazzi website designer team and take over the world :)
Nathan, you lead ?


On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> Howdy neighbour! I bet you its cold down there at the moment?
>
> What about a bootable USB drive? Its simpler than a virtual machine and its 
> updatable unlike the CD.
>
> I think some people took what I said as a chip at the developers or me 
> telling people how to run the project. This was never my intention. There 
> were a number of places I was coming from when I wrote that email:
>
> There is a large learning curve for new people. I think technical people 
> often forget how hard it is for non technical people to "get it".
>
> UAVs are a very fast growing sector of the aviation industry (maybe even the 
> fastest) and more and more private companies are going to want to use them. 
> When the person with the money (usually the manager) looks at a project they 
> do not see the code or the possibilities they see a look and feel (what they 
> call professionalism). The only thing they have to get that look and feel is 
> the Paparazzi website. Ardupilot, Attopilot, Micropilot, MNAV all have 
> websites that look much better than the Paparazzi code.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Nathan Aherne
> Reddog Technology
> Web: www.reddog.com.au
> Email: address@hidden
> Mob: 0402 555 080
>
> On 03/05/2010, at 10:21 PM, Chris Gough wrote:
>
>> Nathan,
>>
>> Hi there neighbor, I'm just down the road in Canberra; but I'm coming
>> from a similar place to you in more ways than one. I'm also a Linux
>> veteran with 10+ years in software development. Unlike many Paparazzi
>> users, I don't have a background in electronics, aeronautical
>> engineering, control theory or embedded systems. My paparazzi journey
>> has been a steep learning curve. I don't interpret this as a
>> deficiency in the documentation or communications technology, it's
>> because it's hard. Just because it's Linux software doesn't make me an
>> expert, I enjoy the challenge.
>>
>> The paparazzi developers do enough by continuing to improve this great
>> free software that works. The debian packaging and documentation are
>> convenient for me, and the community provides generous support. I
>> couldn't ask for any more from them, thank you!
>>
>> If you want to push paparazzi "across the chasm" of technology
>> adoption from experts (and determined geeks) to FPV pilots, AP
>> enthusiasts and others with less technical capacity, it will take a
>> lot more than new wiki features and a some HOWTO documents. Playing
>> devil's advocate, why should anyone bother? what's in it for the
>> existing Paparazzi community?
>>
>> An online training program might help new users up the curve. More
>> packaging and distribution work on live CDs or VirtualBox images might
>> lower the bar. Done right, those are significant efforts. Why not just
>> explain what the user callable routines do in the wiki? Or chuck a few
>> shrimps on the barbie and call a meeting of the East Australian
>> Paparazzi Fan Club - I'll be there with bells on.
>>
>> Chris Gough
>>
>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I am not sure who to offer this to.
>>>
>>> As a newbie to Paparazzi I have experienced many issues with using 
>>> Paparazzi. I am not new to Linux and I am not new to coding but I am new to 
>>> the Paparazzi code. The biggest issues I have had with using Paparazzi 
>>> (which are the same as almost every newbie) are documentation and 
>>> understanding of the Paparazzi autopilot. Even adding a Getting Started 
>>> Section where new people can get started would be great. The other things 
>>> that would have helped me are better documentation of the underlying code 
>>> so I can understand for instance what NavSetGroundReferenceHere() does (and 
>>> all other user callable routines) and examples of XML code for flight plans 
>>> etc. Something that would have helped me more was a forum instead of a 
>>> mailing list to search, because a forum makes more logical sense when 
>>> reading it. Having a forum also allows other newbies to help each other.
>>>
>>> To summarise - The biggest barriers to newbies is the huge learning curve 
>>> required to get a working Paparazzi system.
>>>
>>> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our 
>>> hosting and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for 
>>> example Dekiwiki. If the devs want to take up my offer, please contact me 
>>> on this email address and we can work out the details. Maybe this is not 
>>> what you want, if you have any other ideas on how I can say thanks and help 
>>> you attract new users, I am all ears.
>>>
>>> Please don't take the above as criticism of anything. I am offering because 
>>> if you had not offered Paparazzi as a free product, then I would have spent 
>>> a fortune on a Micropilot and been sorely disappointed, so you saved me 
>>> from spending a fortune and being disappointed, but not from being 
>>> frustrated. I believe Paparazzi is the best Autopilot available, but the 
>>> barriers to entry are so high that people are getting scared away from 
>>> using it and its such a terrible travesty when that happens.
>>>
>>> Kindest regards,
>>>
>>> Nathan Aherne
>>> Reddog Technology
>>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>>> Email: address@hidden
>>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> address@hidden
>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>

From:  Chris Gough 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 23:11:51 +1000 

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> Howdy neighbour! I bet you its cold down there at the moment?

Perhaps by Sydney standards, but there probably won't even be a frost
tomorrow morning.

> What about a bootable USB drive? Its simpler than a virtual machine and its 
> updatable unlike the CD.

I'm downloading Garth's VirtualBox torrent at the moment - You make a
thumb-drive appliance and I'll try it out too :)

Since upgrading to a modern laptop with more ram than I know what to
do with, virtual machines don't seem  quite as comlicated.

> I think some people took what I said as a chip at the developers or me 
> telling people how to run the project. This was never my intention. There 
> were a number of places I was coming from when I wrote that email:

They'll get over it :)

> There is a large learning curve for new people. I think technical people 
> often forget how hard it is for non technical people to "get it".

Sure, some unicorn worshippers just can't think through a problem with
logic - but my point is that even being "a technical person", if you
are missing more than a couple of key concepts (like me) then some
confusion is inevitable; you are going to have to do some work if you
want to understand.

> UAVs are a very fast growing sector of the aviation industry (maybe even the 
> fastest) and more and more private companies are going to want to use them. 
> When the person with the money (usually the manager) looks at a project they 
> do not see the code or the possibilities they see a look and feel (what they 
> call professionalism). The only thing they have to get that look and feel is 
> the Paparazzi website. Ardupilot, Attopilot, Micropilot, MNAV all have 
> websites that look much better than the Paparazzi code.

Agreed, but why should I care? That's a serious question.

Chris Gough

> Kindest regards,
>
> Nathan Aherne
> Reddog Technology
> Web: www.reddog.com.au
> Email: address@hidden
> Mob: 0402 555 080
>
> On 03/05/2010, at 10:21 PM, Chris Gough wrote:
>
>> Nathan,
>>
>> Hi there neighbor, I'm just down the road in Canberra; but I'm coming
>> from a similar place to you in more ways than one. I'm also a Linux
>> veteran with 10+ years in software development. Unlike many Paparazzi
>> users, I don't have a background in electronics, aeronautical
>> engineering, control theory or embedded systems. My paparazzi journey
>> has been a steep learning curve. I don't interpret this as a
>> deficiency in the documentation or communications technology, it's
>> because it's hard. Just because it's Linux software doesn't make me an
>> expert, I enjoy the challenge.
>>
>> The paparazzi developers do enough by continuing to improve this great
>> free software that works. The debian packaging and documentation are
>> convenient for me, and the community provides generous support. I
>> couldn't ask for any more from them, thank you!
>>
>> If you want to push paparazzi "across the chasm" of technology
>> adoption from experts (and determined geeks) to FPV pilots, AP
>> enthusiasts and others with less technical capacity, it will take a
>> lot more than new wiki features and a some HOWTO documents. Playing
>> devil's advocate, why should anyone bother? what's in it for the
>> existing Paparazzi community?
>>
>> An online training program might help new users up the curve. More
>> packaging and distribution work on live CDs or VirtualBox images might
>> lower the bar. Done right, those are significant efforts. Why not just
>> explain what the user callable routines do in the wiki? Or chuck a few
>> shrimps on the barbie and call a meeting of the East Australian
>> Paparazzi Fan Club - I'll be there with bells on.
>>
>> Chris Gough
>>
>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I am not sure who to offer this to.
>>>
>>> As a newbie to Paparazzi I have experienced many issues with using 
>>> Paparazzi. I am not new to Linux and I am not new to coding but I am new to 
>>> the Paparazzi code. The biggest issues I have had with using Paparazzi 
>>> (which are the same as almost every newbie) are documentation and 
>>> understanding of the Paparazzi autopilot. Even adding a Getting Started 
>>> Section where new people can get started would be great. The other things 
>>> that would have helped me are better documentation of the underlying code 
>>> so I can understand for instance what NavSetGroundReferenceHere() does (and 
>>> all other user callable routines) and examples of XML code for flight plans 
>>> etc. Something that would have helped me more was a forum instead of a 
>>> mailing list to search, because a forum makes more logical sense when 
>>> reading it. Having a forum also allows other newbies to help each other.
>>>
>>> To summarise - The biggest barriers to newbies is the huge learning curve 
>>> required to get a working Paparazzi system.
>>>
>>> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our 
>>> hosting and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for 
>>> example Dekiwiki. If the devs want to take up my offer, please contact me 
>>> on this email address and we can work out the details. Maybe this is not 
>>> what you want, if you have any other ideas on how I can say thanks and help 
>>> you attract new users, I am all ears.
>>>
>>> Please don't take the above as criticism of anything. I am offering because 
>>> if you had not offered Paparazzi as a free product, then I would have spent 
>>> a fortune on a Micropilot and been sorely disappointed, so you saved me 
>>> from spending a fortune and being disappointed, but not from being 
>>> frustrated. I believe Paparazzi is the best Autopilot available, but the 
>>> barriers to entry are so high that people are getting scared away from 
>>> using it and its such a terrible travesty when that happens.
>>>
>>> Kindest regards,
>>>
>>> Nathan Aherne
>>> Reddog Technology
>>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>>> Email: address@hidden
>>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> address@hidden
>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>

From:  Nathan Aherne 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 3 May 2010 23:28:56 +1000 

Hi Chris,

> Agreed, but why should I care? That's a serious question.

While I am not a fan of money and the negatives it brings this world, it makes 
the world go around. When you attract paying customers, it means people value 
the product (generally). 

Say for instance one of the Paparazzi users got a job implementing a new UAV 
project (lets say his names Simeon). When Simeon goes into a presentation to 
his boss to present the available autopilots for their brand new $100,000 UAV, 
Simeon is going to need as much backup as possible. If the boss chooses 
Paparazzi then he has a vested interest in the success of the Paparazzi 
software. This means Simeon has time to work on the Paparazzi code so the 
Paparazzi community benefits from his code and skills he gain while on the job. 
This is why you should care, actually you are probably benefiting from the 
commercial use of Paparazzi now.

Kindest regards,
 
Nathan Aherne
Reddog Technology
Web: www.reddog.com.au
Email: address@hidden
Mob: 0402 555 080

On 03/05/2010, at 11:11 PM, Chris Gough wrote:

> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>> 
>> Howdy neighbour! I bet you its cold down there at the moment?
> 
> Perhaps by Sydney standards, but there probably won't even be a frost
> tomorrow morning.
> 
>> What about a bootable USB drive? Its simpler than a virtual machine and its 
>> updatable unlike the CD.
> 
> I'm downloading Garth's VirtualBox torrent at the moment - You make a
> thumb-drive appliance and I'll try it out too :)
> 
> Since upgrading to a modern laptop with more ram than I know what to
> do with, virtual machines don't seem  quite as comlicated.
> 
>> I think some people took what I said as a chip at the developers or me 
>> telling people how to run the project. This was never my intention. There 
>> were a number of places I was coming from when I wrote that email:
> 
> They'll get over it :)
> 
>> There is a large learning curve for new people. I think technical people 
>> often forget how hard it is for non technical people to "get it".
> 
> Sure, some unicorn worshippers just can't think through a problem with
> logic - but my point is that even being "a technical person", if you
> are missing more than a couple of key concepts (like me) then some
> confusion is inevitable; you are going to have to do some work if you
> want to understand.
> 
>> UAVs are a very fast growing sector of the aviation industry (maybe even the 
>> fastest) and more and more private companies are going to want to use them. 
>> When the person with the money (usually the manager) looks at a project they 
>> do not see the code or the possibilities they see a look and feel (what they 
>> call professionalism). The only thing they have to get that look and feel is 
>> the Paparazzi website. Ardupilot, Attopilot, Micropilot, MNAV all have 
>> websites that look much better than the Paparazzi code.
> 
> Agreed, but why should I care? That's a serious question.
> 
> Chris Gough
> 
>> Kindest regards,
>> 
>> Nathan Aherne
>> Reddog Technology
>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>> Email: address@hidden
>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>> 
>> On 03/05/2010, at 10:21 PM, Chris Gough wrote:
>> 
>>> Nathan,
>>> 
>>> Hi there neighbor, I'm just down the road in Canberra; but I'm coming
>>> from a similar place to you in more ways than one. I'm also a Linux
>>> veteran with 10+ years in software development. Unlike many Paparazzi
>>> users, I don't have a background in electronics, aeronautical
>>> engineering, control theory or embedded systems. My paparazzi journey
>>> has been a steep learning curve. I don't interpret this as a
>>> deficiency in the documentation or communications technology, it's
>>> because it's hard. Just because it's Linux software doesn't make me an
>>> expert, I enjoy the challenge.
>>> 
>>> The paparazzi developers do enough by continuing to improve this great
>>> free software that works. The debian packaging and documentation are
>>> convenient for me, and the community provides generous support. I
>>> couldn't ask for any more from them, thank you!
>>> 
>>> If you want to push paparazzi "across the chasm" of technology
>>> adoption from experts (and determined geeks) to FPV pilots, AP
>>> enthusiasts and others with less technical capacity, it will take a
>>> lot more than new wiki features and a some HOWTO documents. Playing
>>> devil's advocate, why should anyone bother? what's in it for the
>>> existing Paparazzi community?
>>> 
>>> An online training program might help new users up the curve. More
>>> packaging and distribution work on live CDs or VirtualBox images might
>>> lower the bar. Done right, those are significant efforts. Why not just
>>> explain what the user callable routines do in the wiki? Or chuck a few
>>> shrimps on the barbie and call a meeting of the East Australian
>>> Paparazzi Fan Club - I'll be there with bells on.
>>> 
>>> Chris Gough
>>> 
>>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> 
>>>> I am not sure who to offer this to.
>>>> 
>>>> As a newbie to Paparazzi I have experienced many issues with using 
>>>> Paparazzi. I am not new to Linux and I am not new to coding but I am new 
>>>> to the Paparazzi code. The biggest issues I have had with using Paparazzi 
>>>> (which are the same as almost every newbie) are documentation and 
>>>> understanding of the Paparazzi autopilot. Even adding a Getting Started 
>>>> Section where new people can get started would be great. The other things 
>>>> that would have helped me are better documentation of the underlying code 
>>>> so I can understand for instance what NavSetGroundReferenceHere() does 
>>>> (and all other user callable routines) and examples of XML code for flight 
>>>> plans etc. Something that would have helped me more was a forum instead of 
>>>> a mailing list to search, because a forum makes more logical sense when 
>>>> reading it. Having a forum also allows other newbies to help each other.
>>>> 
>>>> To summarise - The biggest barriers to newbies is the huge learning curve 
>>>> required to get a working Paparazzi system.
>>>> 
>>>> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our 
>>>> hosting and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for 
>>>> example Dekiwiki. If the devs want to take up my offer, please contact me 
>>>> on this email address and we can work out the details. Maybe this is not 
>>>> what you want, if you have any other ideas on how I can say thanks and 
>>>> help you attract new users, I am all ears.
>>>> 
>>>> Please don't take the above as criticism of anything. I am offering 
>>>> because if you had not offered Paparazzi as a free product, then I would 
>>>> have spent a fortune on a Micropilot and been sorely disappointed, so you 
>>>> saved me from spending a fortune and being disappointed, but not from 
>>>> being frustrated. I believe Paparazzi is the best Autopilot available, but 
>>>> the barriers to entry are so high that people are getting scared away from 
>>>> using it and its such a terrible travesty when that happens.
>>>> 
>>>> Kindest regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Nathan Aherne
>>>> Reddog Technology
>>>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>>>> Email: address@hidden
>>>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>>> address@hidden
>>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> address@hidden
>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel

From:  Chris Gough 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Tue, 4 May 2010 00:54:40 +1000 

More on this...

> Say for instance one of the Paparazzi users got a job implementing a new UAV 
> project (lets say his names Simeon). When Simeon goes into a presentation to 
> his boss to present the available autopilots for their brand new $100,000 
> UAV, Simeon is going to need as much backup as possible. If the boss chooses 
> Paparazzi then he has a vested interest in the success of the Paparazzi 
> software. This means Simeon has time to work on the Paparazzi code so the 
> Paparazzi community benefits from his code and skills he gain while on the 
> job. This is why you should care, actually you are probably benefiting from 
> the commercial use of Paparazzi now.

You are right of course, but Paparazzi is one ongoing technical
success who's value is not driven by commerce.

If you look at the most successful open source companies, they are
generally in the packaging and distribution business. They might hire
a few core developers, but that's only to manage risk, control opinion
leadership and boost their credibility. In the process of tweaking
value out of existing components, they make the software much more
appealing to people who make superficial decisions (high impact web
sites, persuasive spin, scalable training/support, buzz).

For the most part, the Paparazzi web site looks like it is by and for
the technical types who actually use it.

Chris Gough

> Kindest regards,
>
> Nathan Aherne
> Reddog Technology
> Web: www.reddog.com.au
> Email: address@hidden
> Mob: 0402 555 080
>
> On 03/05/2010, at 11:11 PM, Chris Gough wrote:
>
>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>
>>> Howdy neighbour! I bet you its cold down there at the moment?
>>
>> Perhaps by Sydney standards, but there probably won't even be a frost
>> tomorrow morning.
>>
>>> What about a bootable USB drive? Its simpler than a virtual machine and its 
>>> updatable unlike the CD.
>>
>> I'm downloading Garth's VirtualBox torrent at the moment - You make a
>> thumb-drive appliance and I'll try it out too :)
>>
>> Since upgrading to a modern laptop with more ram than I know what to
>> do with, virtual machines don't seem  quite as comlicated.
>>
>>> I think some people took what I said as a chip at the developers or me 
>>> telling people how to run the project. This was never my intention. There 
>>> were a number of places I was coming from when I wrote that email:
>>
>> They'll get over it :)
>>
>>> There is a large learning curve for new people. I think technical people 
>>> often forget how hard it is for non technical people to "get it".
>>
>> Sure, some unicorn worshippers just can't think through a problem with
>> logic - but my point is that even being "a technical person", if you
>> are missing more than a couple of key concepts (like me) then some
>> confusion is inevitable; you are going to have to do some work if you
>> want to understand.
>>
>>> UAVs are a very fast growing sector of the aviation industry (maybe even 
>>> the fastest) and more and more private companies are going to want to use 
>>> them. When the person with the money (usually the manager) looks at a 
>>> project they do not see the code or the possibilities they see a look and 
>>> feel (what they call professionalism). The only thing they have to get that 
>>> look and feel is the Paparazzi website. Ardupilot, Attopilot, Micropilot, 
>>> MNAV all have websites that look much better than the Paparazzi code.
>>
>> Agreed, but why should I care? That's a serious question.
>>
>> Chris Gough
>>
>>> Kindest regards,
>>>
>>> Nathan Aherne
>>> Reddog Technology
>>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>>> Email: address@hidden
>>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>>>
>>> On 03/05/2010, at 10:21 PM, Chris Gough wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nathan,
>>>>
>>>> Hi there neighbor, I'm just down the road in Canberra; but I'm coming
>>>> from a similar place to you in more ways than one. I'm also a Linux
>>>> veteran with 10+ years in software development. Unlike many Paparazzi
>>>> users, I don't have a background in electronics, aeronautical
>>>> engineering, control theory or embedded systems. My paparazzi journey
>>>> has been a steep learning curve. I don't interpret this as a
>>>> deficiency in the documentation or communications technology, it's
>>>> because it's hard. Just because it's Linux software doesn't make me an
>>>> expert, I enjoy the challenge.
>>>>
>>>> The paparazzi developers do enough by continuing to improve this great
>>>> free software that works. The debian packaging and documentation are
>>>> convenient for me, and the community provides generous support. I
>>>> couldn't ask for any more from them, thank you!
>>>>
>>>> If you want to push paparazzi "across the chasm" of technology
>>>> adoption from experts (and determined geeks) to FPV pilots, AP
>>>> enthusiasts and others with less technical capacity, it will take a
>>>> lot more than new wiki features and a some HOWTO documents. Playing
>>>> devil's advocate, why should anyone bother? what's in it for the
>>>> existing Paparazzi community?
>>>>
>>>> An online training program might help new users up the curve. More
>>>> packaging and distribution work on live CDs or VirtualBox images might
>>>> lower the bar. Done right, those are significant efforts. Why not just
>>>> explain what the user callable routines do in the wiki? Or chuck a few
>>>> shrimps on the barbie and call a meeting of the East Australian
>>>> Paparazzi Fan Club - I'll be there with bells on.
>>>>
>>>> Chris Gough
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure who to offer this to.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a newbie to Paparazzi I have experienced many issues with using 
>>>>> Paparazzi. I am not new to Linux and I am not new to coding but I am new 
>>>>> to the Paparazzi code. The biggest issues I have had with using Paparazzi 
>>>>> (which are the same as almost every newbie) are documentation and 
>>>>> understanding of the Paparazzi autopilot. Even adding a Getting Started 
>>>>> Section where new people can get started would be great. The other things 
>>>>> that would have helped me are better documentation of the underlying code 
>>>>> so I can understand for instance what NavSetGroundReferenceHere() does 
>>>>> (and all other user callable routines) and examples of XML code for 
>>>>> flight plans etc. Something that would have helped me more was a forum 
>>>>> instead of a mailing list to search, because a forum makes more logical 
>>>>> sense when reading it. Having a forum also allows other newbies to help 
>>>>> each other.
>>>>>
>>>>> To summarise - The biggest barriers to newbies is the huge learning curve 
>>>>> required to get a working Paparazzi system.
>>>>>
>>>>> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our 
>>>>> hosting and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for 
>>>>> example Dekiwiki. If the devs want to take up my offer, please contact me 
>>>>> on this email address and we can work out the details. Maybe this is not 
>>>>> what you want, if you have any other ideas on how I can say thanks and 
>>>>> help you attract new users, I am all ears.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please don't take the above as criticism of anything. I am offering 
>>>>> because if you had not offered Paparazzi as a free product, then I would 
>>>>> have spent a fortune on a Micropilot and been sorely disappointed, so you 
>>>>> saved me from spending a fortune and being disappointed, but not from 
>>>>> being frustrated. I believe Paparazzi is the best Autopilot available, 
>>>>> but the barriers to entry are so high that people are getting scared away 
>>>>> from using it and its such a terrible travesty when that happens.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kindest regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Nathan Aherne
>>>>> Reddog Technology
>>>>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>>>>> Email: address@hidden
>>>>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>>>> address@hidden
>>>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>>> address@hidden
>>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>> address@hidden
>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> address@hidden
>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>

From:  David Carlson 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Mon, 03 May 2010 18:04:51 +0300 
User-agent:  Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100423 Thunderbird/3.0.4 

So I'm just a superficial decision?  Ouch.  :)

On a more serious note, when I first started with paparazzi, I did have a lot 
of questions. I don't blame this on anybody or anything besides my just 
being new to the platform. I didn't understand exactly what all the config 
files did (airframe, radio, flight plan, etc.) nor exactly where to start. 
The information was all out there, mostly on the wiki, but I had to read the 
whole thing before I began to understand. 

Because of this, I think a "Getting Started" guide could be very helpful. 
I've tried to sit down and write one, but I started so many years ago that I 
don't really remember what hangups I had. I would note, however, that it was 
very helpful to actually read most of the wiki as it helped me understand 
_much_ better how the system worked. The one worry that I would have about 
an easy to use getting started guide is that a lot of new-comers may use that 
and skip over the rest of the information. 

Buzz

On 05/03/2010 05:54 PM, Chris Gough wrote:

...
appealing to people who make superficial decisions (high impact web
sites, persuasive spin, scalable training/support, buzz).
...

From:  Nathan Aherne 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Tue, 4 May 2010 02:27:01 +1000 

I have started a Getting started page with all of the things I would have liked 
to have had explained to me when I started.

http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Getting_Started

Its not even close to complete and I don't really have anywhere logical to link 
it. Maybe someone could choose a suitable location? I will continue to update 
it over the next week or so.

Kindest regards,
 
Nathan Aherne
Reddog Technology
Web: www.reddog.com.au
Email: address@hidden
Mob: 0402 555 080

On 04/05/2010, at 1:04 AM, David Carlson wrote:

> So I'm just a superficial decision?  Ouch.  :)
> 
> On a more serious note, when I first started with paparazzi, I did have a lot 
> of questions.  I don't blame this on anybody or anything besides my just 
> being new to the platform.  I didn't understand exactly what all the config 
> files did (airframe, radio, flight plan, etc.) nor exactly where to start.  
> The information was all out there, mostly on the wiki, but I had to read the 
> whole thing before I began to understand.
> 
> Because of this, I think a "Getting Started" guide could be very helpful.  
> I've tried to sit down and write one, but I started so many years ago that I 
> don't really remember what hangups I had.  I would note, however, that it was 
> very helpful to actually read most of the wiki as it helped me understand 
> _much_ better how the system worked.  The one worry that I would have about 
> an easy to use getting started guide is that a lot of new-comers may use that 
> and skip over the rest of the information.
> 
> Buzz
> 
> On 05/03/2010 05:54 PM, Chris Gough wrote:
>> 
>> ...
>> appealing to people who make superficial decisions (high impact web
>> sites, persuasive spin, scalable training/support, buzz).
>> ...
>>   
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> address@hidden
> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel

From:  Nathan Aherne 
Subject:  Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Offer from a thankful new user 
Date:  Tue, 4 May 2010 01:08:35 +1000 

Hi Chris,

You are also right! There are many ways to look at things and I agree with your 
point. I also disagree with it because what I am proposing is not a big change 
from what Paparazzi is currently doing. Making it more marketable to a less 
skilled person does not change the focus of the project or change its technical 
value, it simply attracts more users who in turn make the project more 
successful (generally).

Why make it difficult just because? It makes no sense.

I made my offer because I thought the project might want people with different 
skills to add to it, whatever those skills are. Paparazzi is not just about 
code and hardware, its about passion for the goal as well as the journey. I am 
passionate about the goal and the journey, but I am never going to be able to 
code a complex routine, so I offered my individual skills and money.

Kindest regards,
 
Nathan Aherne
Reddog Technology
Web: www.reddog.com.au
Email: address@hidden
Mob: 0402 555 080

On 04/05/2010, at 12:54 AM, Chris Gough wrote:

> More on this...
> 
>> Say for instance one of the Paparazzi users got a job implementing a new UAV 
>> project (lets say his names Simeon). When Simeon goes into a presentation to 
>> his boss to present the available autopilots for their brand new $100,000 
>> UAV, Simeon is going to need as much backup as possible. If the boss chooses 
>> Paparazzi then he has a vested interest in the success of the Paparazzi 
>> software. This means Simeon has time to work on the Paparazzi code so the 
>> Paparazzi community benefits from his code and skills he gain while on the 
>> job. This is why you should care, actually you are probably benefiting from 
>> the commercial use of Paparazzi now.
> 
> You are right of course, but Paparazzi is one ongoing technical
> success who's value is not driven by commerce.
> 
> If you look at the most successful open source companies, they are
> generally in the packaging and distribution business. They might hire
> a few core developers, but that's only to manage risk, control opinion
> leadership and boost their credibility. In the process of tweaking
> value out of existing components, they make the software much more
> appealing to people who make superficial decisions (high impact web
> sites, persuasive spin, scalable training/support, buzz).
> 
> For the most part, the Paparazzi web site looks like it is by and for
> the technical types who actually use it.
> 
> Chris Gough
> 
>> Kindest regards,
>> 
>> Nathan Aherne
>> Reddog Technology
>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>> Email: address@hidden
>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>> 
>> On 03/05/2010, at 11:11 PM, Chris Gough wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>> 
>>>> Howdy neighbour! I bet you its cold down there at the moment?
>>> 
>>> Perhaps by Sydney standards, but there probably won't even be a frost
>>> tomorrow morning.
>>> 
>>>> What about a bootable USB drive? Its simpler than a virtual machine and 
>>>> its updatable unlike the CD.
>>> 
>>> I'm downloading Garth's VirtualBox torrent at the moment - You make a
>>> thumb-drive appliance and I'll try it out too :)
>>> 
>>> Since upgrading to a modern laptop with more ram than I know what to
>>> do with, virtual machines don't seem  quite as comlicated.
>>> 
>>>> I think some people took what I said as a chip at the developers or me 
>>>> telling people how to run the project. This was never my intention. There 
>>>> were a number of places I was coming from when I wrote that email:
>>> 
>>> They'll get over it :)
>>> 
>>>> There is a large learning curve for new people. I think technical people 
>>>> often forget how hard it is for non technical people to "get it".
>>> 
>>> Sure, some unicorn worshippers just can't think through a problem with
>>> logic - but my point is that even being "a technical person", if you
>>> are missing more than a couple of key concepts (like me) then some
>>> confusion is inevitable; you are going to have to do some work if you
>>> want to understand.
>>> 
>>>> UAVs are a very fast growing sector of the aviation industry (maybe even 
>>>> the fastest) and more and more private companies are going to want to use 
>>>> them. When the person with the money (usually the manager) looks at a 
>>>> project they do not see the code or the possibilities they see a look and 
>>>> feel (what they call professionalism). The only thing they have to get 
>>>> that look and feel is the Paparazzi website. Ardupilot, Attopilot, 
>>>> Micropilot, MNAV all have websites that look much better than the 
>>>> Paparazzi code.
>>> 
>>> Agreed, but why should I care? That's a serious question.
>>> 
>>> Chris Gough
>>> 
>>>> Kindest regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Nathan Aherne
>>>> Reddog Technology
>>>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>>>> Email: address@hidden
>>>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>>>> 
>>>> On 03/05/2010, at 10:21 PM, Chris Gough wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Nathan,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi there neighbor, I'm just down the road in Canberra; but I'm coming
>>>>> from a similar place to you in more ways than one. I'm also a Linux
>>>>> veteran with 10+ years in software development. Unlike many Paparazzi
>>>>> users, I don't have a background in electronics, aeronautical
>>>>> engineering, control theory or embedded systems. My paparazzi journey
>>>>> has been a steep learning curve. I don't interpret this as a
>>>>> deficiency in the documentation or communications technology, it's
>>>>> because it's hard. Just because it's Linux software doesn't make me an
>>>>> expert, I enjoy the challenge.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The paparazzi developers do enough by continuing to improve this great
>>>>> free software that works. The debian packaging and documentation are
>>>>> convenient for me, and the community provides generous support. I
>>>>> couldn't ask for any more from them, thank you!
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you want to push paparazzi "across the chasm" of technology
>>>>> adoption from experts (and determined geeks) to FPV pilots, AP
>>>>> enthusiasts and others with less technical capacity, it will take a
>>>>> lot more than new wiki features and a some HOWTO documents. Playing
>>>>> devil's advocate, why should anyone bother? what's in it for the
>>>>> existing Paparazzi community?
>>>>> 
>>>>> An online training program might help new users up the curve. More
>>>>> packaging and distribution work on live CDs or VirtualBox images might
>>>>> lower the bar. Done right, those are significant efforts. Why not just
>>>>> explain what the user callable routines do in the wiki? Or chuck a few
>>>>> shrimps on the barbie and call a meeting of the East Australian
>>>>> Paparazzi Fan Club - I'll be there with bells on.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Chris Gough
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Nathan Aherne  wrote:
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am not sure who to offer this to.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As a newbie to Paparazzi I have experienced many issues with using 
>>>>>> Paparazzi. I am not new to Linux and I am not new to coding but I am new 
>>>>>> to the Paparazzi code. The biggest issues I have had with using 
>>>>>> Paparazzi (which are the same as almost every newbie) are documentation 
>>>>>> and understanding of the Paparazzi autopilot. Even adding a Getting 
>>>>>> Started Section where new people can get started would be great. The 
>>>>>> other things that would have helped me are better documentation of the 
>>>>>> underlying code so I can understand for instance what 
>>>>>> NavSetGroundReferenceHere() does (and all other user callable routines) 
>>>>>> and examples of XML code for flight plans etc. Something that would have 
>>>>>> helped me more was a forum instead of a mailing list to search, because 
>>>>>> a forum makes more logical sense when reading it. Having a forum also 
>>>>>> allows other newbies to help each other.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To summarise - The biggest barriers to newbies is the huge learning 
>>>>>> curve required to get a working Paparazzi system.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I run a technology company in Australia and I would like to offer our 
>>>>>> hosting and skills to get a website setup, forums and a real wiki, for 
>>>>>> example Dekiwiki. If the devs want to take up my offer, please contact 
>>>>>> me on this email address and we can work out the details. Maybe this is 
>>>>>> not what you want, if you have any other ideas on how I can say thanks 
>>>>>> and help you attract new users, I am all ears.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Please don't take the above as criticism of anything. I am offering 
>>>>>> because if you had not offered Paparazzi as a free product, then I would 
>>>>>> have spent a fortune on a Micropilot and been sorely disappointed, so 
>>>>>> you saved me from spending a fortune and being disappointed, but not 
>>>>>> from being frustrated. I believe Paparazzi is the best Autopilot 
>>>>>> available, but the barriers to entry are so high that people are getting 
>>>>>> scared away from using it and its such a terrible travesty when that 
>>>>>> happens.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kindest regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nathan Aherne
>>>>>> Reddog Technology
>>>>>> Web: www.reddog.com.au
>>>>>> Email: address@hidden
>>>>>> Mob: 0402 555 080
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>>>>> address@hidden
>>>>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>>>> address@hidden
>>>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>>>> address@hidden
>>>> http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> address@hidden
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> address@hidden
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>> 
> 
> 
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