MEETING
BEFORE THE
CALIFORNIA AIR RESOURCES BOARD
LINCOLN PLAZA
AUDITORIUM
400 P STREET
SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 8, 2000
8:30 A.M.
Vicki L. Ogelvie, C.S.R.
License No. 7871
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MEMBERS PRESENT
Alan C. Lloyd, Ph.D., Chairman
Dr. William A. Burke
Joseph C. Calhoun
Dorene D'Adamo
Mark DeSaulnier
Dr. William Friedman
C. Hugh Friedman
Matthew R. McKinnon
Barbara Patrick
Barbara Riordan
Staff:
Michael Kenny, Executive Director
Tom Cackette, Chief Deputy Executive Officer
Mike Scheible, Deputy Executive Officer
Lynn Terry, Deputy Executive Officer
Kathleen Walsh, General Counsel
Marie Kavan, Board Clerk
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I N D E X
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Page
Proceedings 1
Call to Order 1
Opening remarks by Chairman Lloyd 1
AGENDA ITEMS:
00-8-3 Continued Public Meeting for the
Biennial Review of the Zero
Emission Vehicle Regulation
Introductory remarks by Chairman Lloyd 1
Public Comment:
Michael Coates 1
Tom Darlington 8
Steve Heckeroth 12
Robert Marez 19
Virginia Jarrow 21
Tim Carmichael 25
Bill Mason 29
Greg Hanssen 35
Lisa Rosen 41
Gerald Allen Green 45
William Korthof 47
Gary Graunke 52
Stephen Casner 55
Ed Blackmond 56
David Raboy 60
Jerry Pohorsky 64
David Packard 67
Bill Frederick 72
Michael Lechner 73
Enid Joffe 77
Steve Oddo 81
Todd Dowling 83
Paul E. Pulliam 88
Peter Welch 91
Tim Frank 108
Tom Adams 111
Bill Magavern 113
Andrew Frank 115
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I N D E X (Continued)
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Page
Rue Philips 119
Harvey Eder 122
Lisa Wurio 124
Ruben Willmarth 125
Dale Foster 127
David Miller 129
Peter Price 132
Chung Lui 134
Sandra Spelliscy 136
Adjournment 185
Certificate of Reporter 186
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 --o0o--
3 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: The meeting of the California
4 Air Resources Board will now be in session.
5 Please come to order. Today is a continuation
6 of yesterday's Board Meeting.
7 We start with Michael Coates.
8 MR. COATES: Good morning.
9 I'm reporting on two studies that we did, but
10 I've clocked my speech and both of them are under four
11 minutes. I hope that fits in the time frame here.
12 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Your reputation has preceded
13 you as going beyond what you say.
14 I put you on first because you have time
15 constraints. We have time constraints, too.
16 So, please exercise yours.
17 MR. COATES: Would you like me to give them
18 individually and pause for questions?
19 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: No, I think proceed and then
20 we will take the questions at the end.
21 MR. COATES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
22 appreciate the opportunity to appear before the Board.
23 I'm Michael Coates, the Director of the Green
24 Car Institute. We are a non-profit group, specializing
25 in education and advocacy on automobiles and the
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1 environment.
2 We just completed a study, The Current and
3 Future Market for Electric Vehicles for the Electric
4 Transportation Coalition.
5 I will briefly present some key findings.
6 Most importantly, our market research shows a strong
7 market for electric vehicles in California right now.
8 Our studies found that there are 150,000 to
9 225,000 consumers ready to buy EVs currently, and we
10 estimate that there will be 12,000 to 24,000 fleet
11 customers annually by 2003.
12 Collectively, that dwarfs the State's
13 estimated production requirement of about 22,000
14 vehicles for 2003.
15 Our market research was performed by the
16 Doring Company, one of the most respected and
17 experienced companies doing retail and automotive
18 research.
19 The study surveyed 934 prospective new car
20 buyers in California, plus or minus three percent.
21 In the survey, we found that 33.4 percent of
22 California new car buyers wanted to buy an EV for their
23 next vehicle.
24 Using very conservative methodology, which
25 assumes an EV is not the only car in the household,
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1 that no household has more than one EV, that means 12
2 to 18 percent of the new car buyers annually would
3 choose EVs.
4 Those who wanted to buy EVs were aware of the
5 range limitations of the vehicle but have said that
6 they could live with a 60 to 80 mile range vehicle.
7 Another, fourth, preferred a vehicle with a
8 100 mile range. Most consumers understand that EVs
9 cost more, and 70 percent said they are willing to pay
10 a premium for the vehicle.
11 We also found what appears to be limiting the
12 current market, other than lack of product, two things
13 are holding the EV buyers back.
14 One, body style. EV buyers want four and five
15 passenger sedans, typically with four doors. No EV is
16 configured like that or on the consumer market now.
17 Two, leasing. Only 23 percent of EV buyers
18 want to lease. More significantly, 39 percent said
19 they would switch to a gas vehicle if leasing were the
20 only purchase option as it is now.
21 The remaining 38 percent would consider a
22 lease, but they prefer to buy an EV.
23 In studying the fleet market, we found it to
24 be dominated by three groups, government, business, and
25 rentals.
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1 EVs are making end roads in many government
2 fleets, but high prices, lack of product, and the
3 limited range of vehicles are making them a tougher
4 sale in many commercial fleets.
5 Further, analyzing the Southern California
6 Edison survey of municipal government fleets, we found
7 24 percent of the reporting cities already had 10
8 percent of their fleets as EVs. More than half of the
9 rest had 1 to 9 percent of their fleet EVs.
10 These municipalities are the low, low hanging
11 fruit for the EV fleet market, along with the state,
12 federal and utility fleets.
13 To sum up, by conservative estimate, we feel
14 there will be a California EV market consumer fleet for
15 between 163,200 and 250,800 vehicles annually in 2003,
16 assuming the appropriate vehicles are properly marketed
17 in the state.
18 The second report was Future EV Pricing, also
19 for the California Electric Transportation Coalition.
20 Briefly summarizing our findings there, part
21 of this was based on a previous study on the same
22 subject, Pricing for Success, using auto industry
23 models to review electric vehicle costing and pricing.
24 That study was done four years ago and formed
25 some of the background for our current study. We have
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1 several main findings.
2 One, while their standard automobile costing
3 and pricing practices, they are not uniformly applied,
4 and different manufacturers have different practices,
5 So cost and price are determined within the context of
6 a company's internal and external marketing goals.
7 Two, the EV cost presented and prices used to
8 market EVs over the past few years appear to be high,
9 probably saying more about the companies' feelings
10 about proposed government regulation than about
11 electric vehicles themselves.
12 Historically, low volume vehicles that are
13 significant part of a company's image or corporate
14 positioning, as EVs clearly are, we see corporate
15 subsidies, and we're not held to the same return on
16 investment standards as other vehicles.
17 Three, prices supposedly represent a vehicle's
18 public value. They are subject to change due to market
19 conditions, competition or change in corporate goals,
20 but are usually quite fluid, particularly at the time
21 of product launch.
22 Four, manufacturing the materials cost, there
23 is little direct relationship to retail prices in
24 today's globalized automotive world.
25 Otherwise, for example, General Motors who
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1 sells Cadillac Sevilles for no more than twice what a
2 Chevy Cavalier costs rather than the four times it
3 sells for in the current market, if manufacturer and
4 component cost were so critical to pricing, the
5 Cavalier would probably cost more, and the Seville
6 would cost substantially less.
7 Our study also found several new trends in the
8 auto industry that should help mitigate some EV cost
9 issues.
10 One, advances in manufacturing and development
11 technology are cutting time to market and increasing
12 the flexibility of production facilities, allowing them
13 to accommodate different vehicle programs like EVs.
14 Use of suppliers' subassemblies promises to
15 drive down development and manufacturing costs and open
16 the door to potential standardization of components
17 that could lead to further cost reductions.
18 Three, the rapidly converging technology
19 fields of computers, electronics, and advanced
20 technology, such as fuel cell research, impacts each
21 other and driving technology while lowering cost at a
22 rate far exceeding normal automotive development.
23 Four, the environmental impact of the vehicle
24 is being talked about beyond government and
25 environmental group circles for the first time in a
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1 significant way.
2 The leaders of auto companies are pledging to
3 make fuel efficiency and environmental impact a valued
4 feature of vehicles, which should lead to more consumer
5 awareness of this issue.
6 Our study points out that since the days of
7 Henry Ford, auto marketers have asserted that if you
8 charge a reasonable price for a product, you can
9 actually create a market.
10 Honda and Toyota, in introducing their hybrid
11 electric vehicles seem to be following this advice.
12 They have set prices at a point where they
13 have found significant consumer interest in the
14 vehicle, even though they are selling the cars for less
15 than the cost to produce them.
16 Given the clear signs from market research
17 that shows the strong consumer market for electric
18 vehicles, this is the kind of marketing initiative
19 needed to launch the EV market.
20 Thank you very much.
21 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Thank you very
22 much.
23 Any questions?
24 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you, Professor
25 Friedman.
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1 Carolyn Scott.
2 Carolyn Scott not here.
3 Tom Darlington.
4 MR. DARLINGTON: Good morning. My name is Tom
5 Darlington.
6 I'm with the Air Improvement Resource. I'm
7 making my comments on behalf of General Motors, the
8 Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers.
9 We were asked to review the methods used to
10 calculate the emission benefits of electric vehicles in
11 Chapter 9 of the Staff Report.
12 My overall view is it is a fair representation
13 of the benefits of EVs for hydrocarbons and NOx. I can
14 not make the same comment about CO2, carbon dioxide,
15 yet, because we haven't had a chance to review the
16 staff's CO2 estimates for EVs.
17 But for hydrocarbons and NOx, it's a pretty
18 good estimate, with one small exception that I would
19 like to bring to your attention, and that is that there
20 are non fuel background emissions from hydrocarbon
21 emissions from all vehicles.
22 All vehicles include a small non fuel
23 background, these emissions come from the tires, paint,
24 upolstery, that kind of thing used in the vehicle.
25 The staff report for emissions for gasoline
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1 vehicles include these non fuel background emissions,
2 because they are included in the basic test to do
3 evaporative tests, but omits these emissions from
4 battery electric vehicles.
5 Now, the EV evaporative emissions the staff
6 will tell you we believe should be changed from zero to
7 some estimate of a non fuel background.
8 The manufacturers have submitted data some
9 time ago, not for this particular purpose, but for the
10 purpose of setting a zero fuel evaporative test
11 requirement that indicates these emissions are in the
12 order of 200 to 300 milligrams or .2 to .3 grams, and
13 it appears in the staff's estimate that the staff's
14 estimates of these emissions is about .02 grams per
15 mile, the same amount estimated for PZEVs, which must
16 meet a zero evaporative standard in order to be called
17 a PZEV.
18 If you'll flip two pages please. This upper
19 graph shows the end log emissions comparison for the
20 different vehicles, just as it is in the staff report,
21 although it's a little inverted, with battery emission
22 vehicles being, of course, the lowest for hydrocarbon
23 emissions.
24 If you can move that bottom graph up, if you
25 add a small amount of non fuel background to the
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1 battery electric vehicles, you get this bottom chart
2 that shows the emissions from the hydrocarbon emissions
3 from these vehicles are just a little bit higher than
4 estimated.
5 What we are asking the staff to do is revise
6 the report and include some estimate of non fuel
7 background emissions for electric vehicles, whatever is
8 appropriate, just the same as done for gasoline
9 vehicles.
10 Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: A question on the second
12 chart, you increase the battery electric vehicles
13 because you have direct emissions, I thought you said
14 indirect emissions?
15 MR. DARLINGTON: It should be indirect.
16 The indirect emissions are really upstream
17 fuel cycle emissions, so those are not increasing. The
18 direct emissions are exhaust plus evaporative
19 emissions.
20 Yes, I am increasing the direct emissions
21 here.
22 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: You are suggesting here is we
23 should make clear that those are zero as well, make the
24 direct emissions zero as well?
25 MR. DARLINGTON: No.
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1 What I'm suggesting is the direct emissions
2 for battery vehicles should be higher than zero.
3 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: If we dictate they should be
4 zero, they will be zero.
5 MR. DARLINGTON: I'm not following you.
6 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Currently they are not
7 addressed.
8 If we say we need to make them zero, currently
9 we are claiming they are zero, but they are not really
10 zero.
11 Your point there is that we should address
12 that. The way to address that is to say, okay, they
13 should be standard, they will be zero.
14 MR. DARLINGTON: I'm not sure that will work.
15 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Is that a separate issue?
16 MR. DARLINGTON: Yes, that is a separate
17 issue.
18 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you.
19 Yes, Mr. McKinnon.
20 BOARD MEMBER McKINNON: Sir, so I'm clear on
21 what you are representing here, when you say non fuel,
22 you are not talking about tailpipe.
23 You are saying non fuel, including fuel tanks,
24 fuel lines?
25 MR. DARLINGTON: When I say non fuel, I mean
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1 none of those hydrocarbons ever come from any kind of
2 fuel source in a battery electric.
3 They would come from the tires, paint,
4 upholstery, all the polymeric compounds used in there,
5 and some of those things are reactive and go into the
6 atmosphere and create ozone.
7 BOARD MEMBER McKINNON: Thank you.
8 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Next we have Steve Heckeroth,
9 then Virginia Jarrow, and then Bill Mason.
10 Is Carolyn Scott here now?
11 MR. HECKEROTH: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and
12 fellow protectors of our air.
13 I was told I could show slides, but the system
14 did not work out since the screen was in front of you,
15 so I hope you will not penalize me for the time it
16 takes to set up here.
17 My name is Steve Heckeroth. As a Solar
18 Designer for 30 years, I have worked in both my private
19 and professional life to find alternatives to fossil
20 fuel use.
21 In 1992 encouraged by the self mandate, I
22 founded a company to build EVs.
23 This is my first EV. It's a conversion of a
24 type 3 Carmengia.
25 I was on the Planning Commission in Mendocino
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1 County and served a term. This is 75 miles away from
2 my home, over a 3000 foot grade, and my little
3 home-built EV made that trip, and unfortunately the
4 Planning Commission meetings usually lasted eight
5 hours, so I had time to charge while I was there and
6 make the return trip over the 3000 foot grade.
7 My opinion is that anybody that has to travel
8 more than a 150 miles a day is doing something wrong.
9 EVs will satisfy everybody who has rational
10 commute distance needs.
11 My company also built quite a few other EVs.
12 The best one was the conversion of a Porsche Spyder.
13 This vehicle went zero to 60 in eight seconds,
14 top speed of about 130 miles an hour, and had a 120
15 mile range.
16 The key to range is weight, incidently, and I
17 think that all the figures that you have been given are
18 based on the weight of a current vehicle, which is
19 grossly overweight.
20 This vehicle, instead of using lead acid
21 batteries, instead of using three kilowatt hours per
22 mile, uses two kilowatt hours per mile.
23 Ralph Nader, in John Shafers car, this is
24 1997, he was still a little concerned about the no
25 shoulder harness in the vehicle, but this year he drove
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1 in the same car, and he was completely satisfied with
2 the vehicle.
3 Maybe it has something to do with him running
4 for President.
5 I rode a bike the five miles from my parents'
6 house where I was staying during the hearing to here,
7 and I found it was a very easy commute.
8 It was an electric bike, so I'm not even
9 sweaty, and it took me about 15 minutes to get here.
10 So, I think there are a lot of alternatives in
11 Sacramento that could be used.
12 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Go through the
13 rest of them really quick.
14 MR. HECKEROTH: This is the racing model of
15 the Porsche.
16 It's still winning competitions six years
17 after we made it. It won at the Tour De Sol, the
18 acceleration and at the slalom.
19 This is my three kilowatt solar ray on my barn
20 that I charge my electric tractor and my electric car
21 off of.
22 Here is the first model of the electric
23 tractor, which off road electrics should be in the near
24 future, because there is a lot of problems with off
25 road emissions as well, and there is a lot of necessary
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1 uses for off road vehicles, like farming.
2 I am trying to develop the farming tractor.
3 I've done five prototypes now.
4 This is my new solar ray. This is a
5 technology I wish I had the time to tell you about.
6 It's developed by Unisolar, produces 50 kilowatts off
7 these roofs on 12 different projects last year, using
8 the California Energy Commission Rebate.
9 This is another project I have purchased
10 electric bikes from seven different manufacturers and
11 tested them to find out which was the best, and this is
12 a solar charging, mobile solar charging station for
13 electric bikes.
14 So, we can take them around to different
15 communities and introduce people to this new incredible
16 technology.
17 I want to focus my testimony today --
18 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: You better focus quickly.
19 You are on the red. Please, we have a lot to
20 get through here yet. We've got nearly 40 witnesses.
21 MR. HECKEROTH: Sorry.
22 With all due respect, sir, I think we spent
23 hours yesterday listening to manufacturers who spent
24 millions of dollars to try and defeat the mandate, and
25 standing in front of you is a manufacturer who spent
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1 five times my yearly income trying to comply with the
2 mandate.
3 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: I hear what you are saying,
4 but on the other hand, the auto manufacturers are also
5 the ones who have to face the major burden, so I think
6 it's only appropriate.
7 MR. HECKEROTH: I will speed through it as
8 quickly as possible.
9 My testimony today focuses on two overlooked
10 areas where action by the ARB could make the mandate a
11 much more effective tool for improving the air quality.
12 These are standardized charging infrastructure
13 and elimination of vehicle weight limit.
14 Some EVs offered by the auto industry feature
15 inductive chargers, which are unnecessary added
16 expense.
17 I believe the auto industry is only using this
18 kind of technology to control the charging
19 infrastructure so they could make the case that EVs are
20 not ready yet.
21 Beyond that it gives them the ability to
22 design for failure. When GM was choosing a charging
23 port, they were careful to select one that could pose a
24 fire danger in extreme situations.
25 Then, at the opportune time, when they had met
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1 the conditions of the MOA, they used this potential
2 fire opportunity to recall all the EV 1s.
3 This fire hazard, in doing that, they drew
4 attention again to the safety questions about EVs.
5 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: With due respect, what should
6 we do?
7 MR. HECKEROTH: We should do a standardized --
8 on my EVs, I use typical 110 charging plugs that will
9 serve a 3 kilowatt charging, or you can use a 30 amp,
10 220 charging plug for 5 kilowatt charging, or you can
11 use a 50 amp, 240 plug for 10 kilowatt charging.
12 These are all plugs that you can buy in the
13 hardware store. They require nothing the size of a
14 refrigerator to carry around with your car.
15 To understand the absurdity of this situation,
16 imagine that everyone had to carry their own nozzle
17 around with them, and also with the situation of the EV
18 1, you have to carry around this gas pump the size of a
19 small refrigerator to fill up your car, and the only
20 justification for that is to be able to fill your car
21 under water.
22 Also, this EV mandate only applies to vehicles
23 that weigh less than 3750 pounds. As a result, the
24 auto industry aggressively marketed vehicles that weigh
25 more than 3750 pounds, bought out heavier models so
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1 that they would not be counted.
2 For example, the Jeep Cherokee weighed 2800
3 pounds in 1990, and over 3800 pounds starting in 1993.
4 The Toyota 4Runner weighed 3600 pounds in
5 1990, and over 4000 pounds in 1993.
6 The Ford Explorer was introduced at 3800
7 pounds in 1991.
8 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: I think this was pointed out
9 to us yesterday by UCS.
10 MR. HECKEROTH: I pointed it out at the last
11 hearings, too.
12 But if we could eliminate that weight limit, I
13 think it would do more than anything else to get the
14 SUVs off the road and replace them with zero emission
15 vehicles.
16 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you.
17 Questions?
18 Thank you.
19 Virginia Jarrow, then Bill Mason.
20 I apologize for the change, hold on. I do
21 have Robert Marez, representing Senator Boxer. Mr.
22 Marez has requested 9:00, I'm sorry it is late sir.
23 MS. JARROW: It'll take me just one moment.
24 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Virginia, can you just hold
25 on one minute?
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1 I have a representative from Senator Boxer
2 lined up.
3 After he speaks, we will hear from you.
4 Thank you. Sorry for that.
5 Mr. Marez, thank you for coming, and I
6 apologize, I am five minutes late here.
7 MR. MAREZ: No problem.
8 Thank you very much for the opportunity for
9 letting Senator Boxer give her point of view on this
10 issue.
11 She is in Washington, D.C., but she wanted us
12 to read a letter to the Board from her.
13 So, Emily will read the letter while I pass it
14 out.
15 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much indeed.
16 MS. FRANCKE: Good morning.
17 Dear Governor Davis, I am writing to you to
18 convey my support for California's Zero-Emission
19 Vehicle program. I encourage you to strengthen it
20 during this year's Biennial Review.
21 The ZEV program is necessary for California to
22 meet its air quality goals established by the Clean Air
23 Act.
24 Not meeting this goal will result in the state
25 losing federal transportation funding. Currently, air
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1 pollution from cars and trucks accounts for
2 approximately 60 percent of the state's total air
3 pollution.
4 At the same time, the number of vehicles and
5 vehicle miles traveled in California is increasing.
6 Without continued investment in new vehicle technology,
7 California will not reach its air quality goals.
8 Not only will the state lose federal
9 transportation funding, but our citizens' health will
10 be threatened.
11 Over 95 percent of California's population is
12 exposed to unhealthy levels of ozone, which exacerbates
13 asthma and other lung diseases. Children are
14 especially at risk for acute respiratory illness.
15 The ZEV program will help to decrease these
16 illnesses.
17 I urge you to continue a strong Zero-Emission
18 Vehicle program in California. Our citizen's health,
19 environment, and quality of life depend on it.
20 Sincerely, Barbara Boxer, U.S. Senator.
21 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
22 Thanks to Senator Boxer for taking the time to
23 write the letter.
24 Okay. Virginia, and then after that, Bill
25 Mason, and then Greg Hanssen.
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1 MS. JARROW: Yes, my name is Virginia Jarrow,
2 and I was trying to sympathize with Senator Feinstein,
3 so I wrecked my toes, and that's the reason for the
4 cane.
5 I brought a copy of The Sacramento Bee,
6 because it's very interesting, the headlines, one is
7 Pain at the Pump Flares Up Again, and the next is
8 Recession Fears Rise with Oil Prices, and I think this
9 has a lot to do with what's happening here now.
10 With my testimony, I'm with Consumers
11 Coalition in California, and we are based in Southern
12 California, and Consumers Coalition has testified
13 before the California Air Resources Board and the
14 California Energy Commission as far back as the 1980's,
15 addressing issues that affect the consumer.
16 Our testimony included participation in the
17 task force of the Office of Appropriate Technology.
18 CCC has also been active before the California
19 Energy Commission, the California Public Utilities
20 Commission, and the California Senate and Assembly
21 addressing energy issues effecting California
22 residence.
23 CCC has also testified before the Department
24 of Corporations on health and welfare conditions
25 impacting HMOs and hospitals. Because of our testimony
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1 and research that we are testifying today, our issue is
2 the mandate of 2003 for Zero-Emission Vehicles.
3 In 1996, while CCC was serving on the Ford
4 Arbitration Board, electric vehicles were offered to
5 the members to test drive. The members loved them.
6 In 1998, the most popular car at the auto
7 show, which General Motors puts on every year, was the
8 electric vehicle.
9 In the year 2000, the electric vehicle tent
10 was empty. No car available and no explanation
11 offered. CCC contacted the Saturn dealer in the South
12 Bay for a demonstration drive and the lease and rental
13 terms.
14 We were informed that we'd be contacted. No
15 contact was ever made.
16 Sports pages, magazines and televisions run
17 stories about this new technology, but are the cars
18 coming on-line?
19 The auto manufacturers would have us believe
20 that the requirements of putting the vehicles on the
21 road cannot be reached.
22 There is a push to move the 2003 mandate to
23 2010. The 2003 mandate must be preserved or CCC
24 believes that California will see the determined
25 activism from consumer advocates and environmental
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1 health groups. It further delays their experience.
2 Forecast project that California's population
3 will increase by one percent annually, and doubled by
4 2040. Yet today, 95 percent of the population live in
5 areas that fail the clean air standards.
6 Gasoline and diesel powered cars and trucks
7 produce nearly two-thirds of the smog forming
8 pollutants. Emission controls have reduced the
9 pollutants, but the air is still too dirty to breathe.
10 Are we going to wait for a major class action,
11 such as the tobacco industry is now experiencing, or
12 are we going to get the Zero-Emissions Vehicles on the
13 road?
14 The manufacturers would have you believe that
15 the solution to the battery problem and the charging
16 problem is not possible before the year 2010.
17 Why are there two charging systems?
18 Both have the same time to charge, both have
19 similar costs.
20 Why is there no standardization?
21 There is a similar argument in the
22 standardization of the batteries by the manufacturers.
23 Why can't they be the same and fit universally
24 as batteries do in the present day cars?
25 With standardization, the cost of batteries
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1 would drop and the batteries would become affordable to
2 the consumer.
3 The electric car is mandatory for breathable
4 air in California.
5 Why are the automobile companies still
6 building prototypes, denying the driving public access
7 and insisting there is no public interest?
8 CCC sincerely hopes the CARB will preserve the
9 mandate of 2003 and get the car on the road.
10 Senator John Burton has introduced a limited
11 tax credit bill to drivers of electric vehicles. Also
12 on the Legislature, our regional trailer bills to
13 convert diesel trucks and cars as of July first, this
14 year's ZEV vehicles will be able to drive in the fast
15 and diamond lanes with one passenger.
16 During the recent heat wave, Los Angeles DWP
17 was fined $14 million for increasing the pollution from
18 the Skatergood and Harbor plants.
19 The funds were earmarked to be used to promote
20 clean air by converting diesel trucks to cleaner fuel
21 and putting electric cars and buses on the road.
22 Los Angeles Department of Water and Power must
23 also put scrubbers on their generating plants by 2003.
24 This is progress, but with 70 percent of the noxious
25 fumes produced by smoggy vehicles, is not enough.
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1 California needs to require the auto
2 manufacturers to meet the 2003 mandate so that we all
3 may breathe again.
4 Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
6 Given the number of witnesses, we will cut
7 back the time to three minutes. Please, if people can
8 just relay new information to be provided.
9 So if you could please adjust the timer for
10 that case.
11 Our next speaker will be Tim Carmichael, from
12 the Coalition of Clean Air.
13 Tim I see you up there. The clock is
14 starting.
15 Then Eugene Dunlap and Bill Mason. Sorry,
16 Bill, I had to change it. Tim has a time constraint.
17 MR. CARMICHAEL: They changed my flight
18 because I was told that I was going later, but this is
19 fine. Thank you very much.
20 Good morning, Members of the Board. My name
21 is Tim Carmichael. I'm the Executive Director of the
22 Coalition of Clean Air.
23 I just have a couple of brief comments.
24 Real quickly, I want to run through a couple
25 things on perspective which I think is critical for
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1 your deliberation.
2 We've heard a lot about the cost of the
3 vehicles. We haven't heard enough about the cost of
4 health care associated with air pollution in
5 California.
6 I think you need to weigh the cost of
7 regulation imposed on companies that are regulated in
8 this state. The priority has to be protecting public
9 health from air pollution.
10 Second point is, we hear a lot about 20,000 or
11 25,000 vehicles, and it sounds like a big number if you
12 let it stand alone. If you divide it by 6, the 6
13 manufacturers you are regulating, and you compare it to
14 1.5 million vehicles, cars, SUVs and pickups sold in
15 this state every year, it's not a very big number.
16 The other thing I want to mention on
17 perspective, is the pressure on these companies to
18 perform in the near term, quarterly profits, stock
19 performance, that is the way our economy is going.
20 There is a lot of pressure on these companies
21 to show performance, generate profits right now.
22 This program is about the long term. It's not
23 about this quarter or next quarter. This program is
24 about 10 or 20 or 30 years.
25 The future of transportation not only in this
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1 country but across the globe.
2 I want to run through a couple of key points
3 that we would like you to instruct staff to include in
4 their review of this program, a clear message to the
5 staff that this program is here to stay.
6 I think the biggest weakness of the program in
7 the last 5 years has been the uncertainty, and we have
8 seen that reflected in the industries limited action.
9 Second point, growing the program over time.
10 Have the staff look at the benefits of increasing the
11 requirements over time.
12 Look at plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.
13 This can be a key part of the solution as this program
14 expands.
15 What can we do to make sure those are part of
16 the vehicles developed?
17 What can this agency and others in this state
18 do on the demand side?
19 What can we do at the city level, at the state
20 level, to make sure the demand grows?
21 There are incentives, there are city
22 ordinances, there are buy down money that we can get
23 through the Legislature.
24 Have a look at that.
25 Then we do not want this program to be
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1 dominated by city cars. Those have a place, certainly,
2 but this program also needs full-sized cars, and we
3 need that to be part of the program if it's going to be
4 successful over time.
5 As we heard from many people, four door, five
6 passengers, four-door, four passengers.
7 Last point I want to leave you with, one of
8 the proposals that comes up again and again is to scrap
9 this program or reduce it significantly, and one of the
10 things you are going to be wrestling with and your
11 staff is going to be wrestling with, is what is the
12 appropriate number?
13 I just want to leave you with this thought.
14 The more you reduce the number, the more you work
15 against the primary concerns, that is the cost of the
16 vehicles.
17 The more this number comes down in the
18 requirement, the fewer vehicles produced and the less
19 will benefit from economies to scale.
20 We urge you to maintain and expand it over
21 time. That I think will address one of this Board's
22 primary concerns of the cost of vehicles and ensuring
23 they will come down over time.
24 With that, I thank you very much and
25 appreciate your attention.
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1 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you, Tim.
2 I appreciate you keeping your comments brief.
3 Thank you.
4 Questions or comments?
5 Eugene Dunlap, then Bill Mason, then Greg
6 Hanssen.
7 Eugene?
8 Last time, Eugene?
9 Okay. Go to Bill Mason, Greg Hanssen and Lisa
10 Rosen.
11 MR. MASON: Good morning. My name is Bill
12 Mason.
13 I am a resident of Thousand Oaks, in Ventura
14 County. I'm a retired automotive engineer with 30
15 years experience in the auto industry, General Motors
16 and Volvo.
17 I've had the experience of successfully
18 driving a first generation GM EV 1 for over 32,000
19 miles in 31 months. Since June, I've driven my
20 generation 2 EV 1 over 5000 miles.
21 Over the years, I've observed firsthand GM's
22 reactions to emission regulations, safety, and finally
23 fuel economy.
24 By the early 70's, I was directing a full time
25 research program in vehicle ergomanics at GM.
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1 There never had been a consistent measure of
2 which to determine the value of a given percentage
3 reduction and drag. Since the CAFE requirements were
4 based on chase dynamometer driving schedules, we
5 finally had a fuel metric.
6 For every 10 percent reduction in drag, you
7 can improve fuel economy by 3 or 4 percent. What
8 really caught the attention of management though, was
9 that for every 10 percent reduction in drag you could
10 reduce, it was equivalent to reducing the mass of a car
11 by 100 kilograms.
12 This meant the styling and ergomanic design
13 became integrated activity, something that would never
14 have occurred without CAFE regulations.
15 Early in my career I remember attending a
16 seminar by the head of GM's engineering staff.
17 I owned a 1965 Corvette at the time, which was
18 the first American car to be equipped with disc brakes,
19 and I had the audacity to equip the car with radial ply
20 tires.
21 Full of first hand experience, I asked GM's
22 Chief Engineer why we weren't using disc brakes and the
23 radial ply tires on GM cars, his answer was quick and
24 simple, American cars were too heavy for disc brakes
25 and radial ply tires.
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1 Of course, history and a good dose of CAFE
2 regulation proved him to be very wrong.
3 I also remember a story about GM's reluctance
4 to increase tire inflation pressures to improve fuel
5 economy out of fear of reduced ride quality.
6 In frustration, ride and handling engineers
7 arranged a driving test for several GM execs at the
8 Milford proving ground. Selected cars were equipped
9 with tires inflated to 35 psi, along with minor tweaks
10 to the suspension.
11 Much to the delight of engineers, the execs
12 were not able to detect the high pressured cars and the
13 stage was set for higher tire pressures and improved
14 fuel economy.
15 In the late 60's when Japanese automakers were
16 beginning to significantly penetrate the California
17 market, the attitude in Detroit was that California's
18 infatutation with Japanese cars was just another West
19 Coast fad that would soon fade away.
20 In 1983, I was transferred to California to
21 help at the GM advanced concept center. In June of
22 '85, Paul McCreety approached us to collaborate with
23 Aerovironment and JPL on an electric vehicle project
24 called the Electrospirit.
25 We recommended to GM management in Detroit
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1 that we take on the project. However, GM declined.
2 Two years later, Paul McCreety quietly struck
3 a deal with GM-owned Hughes, and the Electrospirit
4 eventually surfaced at the L.A. Auto Show in 1990 as
5 the GM EMPAC.
6 In 1986, I joined Volvo at its Monitoring and
7 Concepts Center. Our job was to provide Sweden with
8 the first-hand view of the market technology and
9 regulatory activity in the U.S. from a California
10 perspective.
11 One of my early projects was to provide
12 advanced product design direction for Volvo in the most
13 environmental constrained future scenario that we could
14 imagine.
15 We came to the conclusion that serious hybrid
16 electric vehicles with significant all electric range
17 were the best answer from a technical point of view,
18 and in 1992 at the Paris Auto Show, we introduced the
19 Volvo environmental concept car, the series hybrid
20 electric vehicle with an all electric range of 60
21 miles.
22 This five passenger, four-door vehicle had a
23 drag coefficient of .23, only 20 percent greater than
24 GM's EV1, and was not fitted with a smooth under body.
25 Low CDs are possible for four-door sedans
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1 without the extreme shaping suggested by the EV1.
2 Compared to mass, ergonomic drag has an
3 undervalued effect on the driving range of a pure EV,
4 especially real world driving range.
5 In fact, the EV1, largely due to good
6 ergomanics, not low mass, achieves real world range in
7 excess of all of its competitors, even using Panasonic
8 lead acid batteries.
9 I don't believe that the ARB got a good return
10 on its real world driving range for its MOA investment
11 in advanced battery technology.
12 Most of these batteries were installed by the
13 OEMs in inefficient but expedient vehicle platforms.
14 For example, pickup trucks, a van, and a sport utility.
15 By the mid 90's, Volvo had an active program
16 to bring a series hybrid to the market as early as
17 1998. In '96, with preproduction prototypes already on
18 the road, the program was cancelled.
19 Certainly there were cost and marketing
20 issues, but I don't believe those were the primary
21 reasons.
22 Volvo believed that hybrid electric vehicles
23 with significant all electric range should receive ZEV
24 credits. As a bridge to a wider market acceptance of
25 pure EVs, Volvo believed that a series hybrid should
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1 get more ZEV credit than an EV with comparable range
2 because it would be likely driven more.
3 Unfortunately, such credits for those types of
4 hybrids were not recognized by ARB until mid 1998, and
5 more important, Volvo's upper management had become
6 convinced that the 2 percent ZEV sales mandate for 1998
7 would be put on hold, and furthermore, that the 10
8 percent mandate for 2003 would ultimately go away.
9 In summary, based on my 30 years of experience
10 in the auto industry, for its own good, the industry
11 needs to be prodded and pushed into the future by
12 forces other than from within itself, or from its
13 customers.
14 The auto industry does not like the idea of
15 technology forcing legislation, but without such
16 legislation, I believe that the U.S. and European car
17 makers would not be nearly as competitive as they are
18 today.
19 In 1996, Volvo was able to predict the delay
20 of the mandate for 1998, and for 2003 they were
21 convinced that it would go away.
22 I hope that by the end of today you prove them
23 wrong.
24 Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much, Bill.
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1 Yes, Dr. Burke.
2 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: I was listening to the
3 testimony in the back, and I would like to make a
4 correction.
5 When the lady with the injured foot was
6 testifying, she said that the fine that the VWP
7 received was $14 million.
8 In fact, it is variable range fine that we are
9 looking at, $28 million fine, and we plan on putting
10 every dime of that money into applicable municipal
11 projects to improve the environment and specifically
12 with electric vehicles.
13 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you. Next is Greg
14 Hanssen and Lisa Rosen.
15 MR. HANSSEN: Good morning.
16 My name is Greg Hanssen. I'm an EV 1 driver.
17 First off, I'd like to say that I think all
18 this commotion about the charging standard is probably
19 a little over blown.
20 I don't think it's that big of a deal. We
21 would not be here today if it were not for the
22 resounding success of the General Motor's EV 1, and the
23 Honda EV Plus, success perhaps not among the general
24 public, which had no idea that the cars existed or were
25 completely oblivious to how this radically different
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1 type of transportation could benefit them.
2 Success among the people who are willing to
3 take a chance on a totally unfamiliar technology. A
4 few of the current drivers would have pictured
5 themselves in an EV five years ago, and most were at
6 least a little apprehensive about taking on a vehicle
7 that seemed to be so restrictive.
8 These are only anxieties soon turned to
9 enthusiasm though, as people gained experience with
10 their EVs.
11 If the EVs had flopped with these customers,
12 there would be no question about the potential EV
13 market.
14 The problem that the automakers face today is
15 that they've created vehicles that are too good. Much
16 to their dismay, the drivers actually preferred their
17 EVs over their internal combustion vehicles.
18 Rather than becoming a commuter car, the EV in
19 many cases has become the vehicle of choice. We have
20 come a long way since 1996, and I'm not talking about
21 the tremendous advances in lead acid and nickel-metal
22 hydride technologies.
23 Compared to the vague and ineffective
24 advertising tried in the first few years, we now know
25 what kind of information the consumer requires before
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1 he or she can make an educated buying decision.
2 Let me give you an example. With my second
3 generation EV 1, I can drive well over 100 miles on my
4 nightly home recharge, despite the seemingly unending
5 daily range, I still enjoy visiting some of my favorite
6 charging stops for lunch, even though I don't really
7 need the charge.
8 I still get asked the same questions though,
9 most notably, how long does it take to charge? What a
10 dumb question.
11 This person must think I spend a lot of time
12 at this restaurant.
13 Let's see, 120 mile range, then four hours to
14 charge, so, every two or three days, you have to stop
15 and sit here for about four hours.
16 That's how it would be in a gasoline car if it
17 only went 120 miles and took four hours to refill.
18 I realized what a different perspective people
19 might get with an extended EV test drive if they didn't
20 have the convenience of a home charger.
21 What a great fun car, but what a pain to fill
22 up.
23 How could we possibly see electric cars if the
24 public is stuck in a gasoline paradigm and has never
25 experienced the convenience of cost effectiveness of
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1 home recharging.
2 Home recharging is just one of the many
3 advantages the EV has over the ICE. Less maintenance,
4 smoother, quicker, more quiet ride are the other
5 selling points.
6 But even more importantly, the buyer needs to
7 understand their own driving requirements which is rare
8 in a world where the ability to drive four-by-four off
9 the pavement is advertized as the freedom which few
10 actually experience.
11 Freedom from gasoline should be the message in
12 an EV advertisement. Selling an electric vehicle to
13 anyone other than the gutsy early adopter requires a
14 good deal of extra work, and the automakers understand
15 this now.
16 Clearly the buyer has to understand the basic
17 principles of home recharging and daily range before
18 any flashy advertising can begin. Instead of facing
19 this huge education challenge head on, the automakers
20 would rather say that there is no market at all, or
21 that the technoenviro early adopters are all you're
22 going to get.
23 They have even gone so far as to prove market
24 studies that say that the average consumer would need a
25 $28,000 subsidy to switch to an EV.
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1 What they don't point out, though, is that
2 this study attempts to move half of the population to
3 an electric vehicle.
4 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Greg, can you wrap up there?
5 MR. HANSSEN: Okay.
6 0.1 percent of the market is obviously willing
7 to pay a health premium for an EV, so the question
8 becomes, what incentive would we require to reach 1 to
9 4 percent of the buying public over the next 3 years?
10 The study showed that people that understand
11 the environmental benefits of EVs are only required a
12 $19,000 subsidy, which is amazing considering how
13 little the public seems to be willing to go green.
14 The other studies that have actually educated
15 the participants to the advantages of the EV and how it
16 would benefit their daily driving routine have shown
17 much greater acceptance of EVs, in many studies
18 exceeding 10 percent on the new car market.
19 I feel that public education has not been
20 given the attention that it so desperately requires.
21 Incentives are nice, but a $30,000 car that
22 nobody knows or understands is not going to sell much
23 better than a similar $35,000 car.
24 Contrary to what the automakers say, there
25 really is a sizable market for EVs as a complimentary
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1 vehicle in a multi vehicle household.
2 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: I have to ask you to cut off.
3 MR. HANSSEN: We just need to figure out a way
4 to let the public understand what EV drivers have
5 already learned, and to that effect we have started a
6 production electric vehicle drivers coalition
7 consisting of 120 EV drivers whose goal, from aside to
8 maintaining the mandate, is to reach out to the public
9 and share our understanding with them.
10 With the help of the existing EV drivers, I've
11 no doubt that the automakers, the Legislators, the
12 utility companies and environmental groups can all work
13 together to get this message out and make this a
14 success.
15 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you. That was a long
16 sentence.
17 Lisa Rosen. I can't over stress the point is
18 I cut back to three minutes. I really appreciate you
19 taking the time to come, but if you can endorse
20 somebody else's comment, you are going to get brownie
21 points here.
22 If you have some new information, that is
23 important. The fact that you are here will register
24 very strongly.
25 Going on too long, we get concerned with the
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1 time that is being eaten up.
2 MS. ROSEN: Good morning.
3 I'm Lisa Rosen, and I'm a technophobe.
4 Nevertheless, I drove from Southern Califonia in my EV
5 to urge you to continue the mandate.
6 I'm here because of your success in securing
7 production EVs.
8 I'm a law enforcement bureaucrat and I would
9 never have driven one if it had not been for them.
10 In 1997, our family leased our first EV, a
11 Honda, and the process was exhaustive and demeaning.
12 The credit information that they wanted to know about
13 our family went way beyond anything I've ever seen in a
14 credit application, and then an employee came out and
15 inspected our house. It was more like an adoption than
16 a lease.
17 Eventually they persuaded me to drive the car.
18 It was not something I was interested in at first, but
19 then I got hooked.
20 Our family ended up leasing three EVs, and we
21 have driven collectively over 120,000 miles in them, so
22 we are fairly experienced.
23 Because of the recall in the end of the lease,
24 our family of three drivers is now down to one EV, and
25 so there is a certain amount of competition that goes
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1 on.
2 But we don't fight about it openly. Instead,
3 there are these passive-aggressive exchanges and people
4 talking about taking a bicycle and like that.
5 When we go out to drive in this one EV, there
6 is this all this jockeying about who gets to drive.
7 As I have heard here, people get approached if
8 they drive an EV all the time by the public who really
9 still do not get it. I have given out the information
10 now for three years, and I am tempted now to give a
11 different response and say, it goes much faster than I
12 want to go, it goes much farther than my trip to work,
13 it charges in much less time than I take for sleeping,
14 and it plugs in a lot faster than you go to the gas
15 station.
16 Besides which, it has a gauge that shows the
17 power supply, the range, the efficiency, and it also
18 tattles on the last driver.
19 First, the cost was hard to justify. I always
20 drove cheap cars and had trouble adding up the costs.
21 After you add up just purchase, but service repairs,
22 parts, oil changes, smog checks and fuel cost, the EV
23 comes out looking a whole lot better.
24 Only the initial outlay was higher than a
25 comparable car, and the energy savings are
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1 considerable, even when we had three EVs charging, our
2 highest electric bill for the time of use meter was
3 like $70.
4 Even if EVs were not a bargain I still want to
5 drive one. I know that computers track all our
6 spending, and it seems to me that every dollar spent is
7 a message sent, and the message I want to send is about
8 conservation.
9 The uncertain future of the mandate has
10 troubled me, especially after I heard some of the poll
11 results provided by the manufacturers.
12 I overcame my own shyness enough to set up a
13 booth with a sign. Most people were positive. Some
14 lacked the words to compose a letter themselves, but
15 were very glad to sign a statement of fact in support.
16 The majority of the people I spoke to agree
17 that the government should continue to address the
18 issue of air quality by this means.
19 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Wrap up, please.
20 MS. ROSEN: Oh, yes.
21 Sometimes when I see SUVs going down the
22 freeway, they remind me of a dinosaur parade, and
23 clearly people drive cars for a lot of psychological
24 reasons unrelated to practical needs, except for those
25 who value noise, pollution, or waste, EVs can certainly
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1 do the job.
2 Manufacturers tell us that EVs can't be part
3 of a responsible program because of the cost benefit
4 ratios. I can't argue with their technical and
5 economical analysis, but I think it might be beneficial
6 to question some of their underlying social assumptions
7 and point out that oil and tobacco companies are now
8 expected to remediate some of the damages they caused.
9 Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you. What part of
11 Southern California did you say you were from?
12 MS. ROSEN: Orange County.
13 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you.
14 Scott Gaidano, Russell Levine, and Brian
15 Coburn.
16 Scott, not here.
17 Russell Levine.
18 Russell, going a second time.
19 Is Russell here?
20 No, gone.
21 Brian Coburn?
22 Gone.
23 Making the Board Members happy here.
24 Tim Hastrup?
25 Tim, if you are here --
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1 Gerald Allen Green, and then William Korthof
2 and then Gary Graunke.
3 MR. GREEN: Thank you for the opportunity, Dr.
4 Lloyd and Members.
5 I am an EV 1 driver.
6 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Can you pull the mike up a
7 little bit closer?
8 Thank you.
9 MR. GREEN: I am an EV 1 driver, and I got my
10 EV during the first month they were available.
11 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Timer, please.
12 MR. GREEN: I quickly found out that it met
13 most of my driving needs.
14 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: For the court reporter, would
15 you just identify yourself please.
16 MR. GREEN: Sure. Gerald Green, and I am an
17 EV 1 driver.
18 So, we fell in love with the car even though
19 the batteries weren't what GM purported them to be, it
20 still met our needs.
21 Then after three years and after we got
22 Panasonic batteries installed, it went about 80 to 100
23 miles and that was more than enough, but then it was
24 recalled.
25 So, like a lot of disappointed people, even
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1 though I was offered a generation 2 EV 1, with lead
2 acid batteries, I opted to get on the list to wait for
3 the return of my EV, which I'm told will be still some
4 months, and we have waited about five months already.
5 When we do get the car back, it will be for a
6 two-year lease. Now, that lease will run out in 2002.
7 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Have you been promised in a
8 specific month to get the car?
9 MR. GREEN: No.
10 They were pretty wishy-washy about when. But
11 they said it could be the end of 2000 or early 2001.
12 So, if we get the car then for two years, that
13 two-year lease runs out, what are we going to do?
14 We are committed to have some kind of
15 environmentally friendly car, but what is going to be
16 available in 2003?
17 But I think if you were to, the lead acid with
18 Panasonic batteries is fine for us, and I'm sure for
19 many, many people, if you were to give credit for cars
20 like that, the EV 1 was built for lead acid and they
21 work fine for us, if you give some kind of a credit for
22 them, more than you do now, I think that would
23 encourage them to do so.
24 Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you.
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1 Next is William Korthof, then Gary Graunke.
2 William.
3 It would help if you could get in line when
4 your name is called.
5 MR. KORTHOF: William Korthof, I live in
6 Southern California. I am an EV driver.
7 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: What part of Southern
8 California?
9 Dr. Burke wants to know.
10 MR. KORTHOF: L.A. County. Pomona,
11 California.
12 I appeared at both CARB EV public review
13 workshops this year to hear testimony and present my
14 thoughts as a California resident and electric vehicle
15 driver.
16 Interesting, I was able to drive to both of
17 the Northern California and Southern California
18 workshops, as well as this one in an EV, entirely
19 electric vehicle.
20 Until recently, the 450-mile trip to
21 Sacramento would not have even been a consideration for
22 a battery electric car.
23 The progress of the widely appealing market
24 electric vehicle has been rapid and promising in spite
25 of the meager and reluctant efforts by the car
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1 companies and the limited investment in key battery
2 technology.
3 We are still missing many key components,
4 including fast charging, but EV technology is more than
5 ready for the 2003 mandate.
6 Neither of the hybrid models offered so far
7 have electric componentry relevant to all electric
8 capability.
9 Any vehicle that does not support ZEV range on
10 the flood cycle should get no ZEV componentry credit.
11 Any PZEV using an ICE drive system will decay with age
12 and use.
13 The 150 mile emission warranty is a very weak
14 safety net. Over the lifetime, PZEVs will change
15 ownership, eventually being owned by less affluent
16 owners who may not be able to afford necessary
17 maintenance.
18 Cars will be improperly maintained, emission
19 systems will be tampered and modified and key
20 components will fail at some rate.
21 PZEVs have similar risks of becoming gross
22 polluters as any other conventional car. A single
23 PZEV, turned gross polluter can easily spew 1000 times
24 its compliance level emissions, easily doubling its
25 lifetime emissions over just 150 miles.
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1 Remember, cars don't last just 150,000 miles
2 anymore. A car put on the road today will last 10, 15,
3 20 years.
4 A single car that becomes a gross polluter for
5 1000 miles makes up for the emission benefits for many,
6 many other cars that are supposedly compliant with
7 PZEV.
8 One of the key values of the original ZEV
9 mandate was its emphasis on technology that does not
10 risk emission system decay.
11 The PZEV program should phase out credit for
12 technologies at any risk of emission system decay.
13 This issue is particularly relevant to me, because I
14 live in a mixed income neighborhood, there are many
15 cars, many owners that can not afford the repairs that
16 are needed on them.
17 Many cars that would have been in compliance
18 with LEV or previous regulations have now become gross
19 polluters, they routinely drive around with the owners
20 not able to maintain them.
21 Only 1 of 7 MOA models is even designated with
22 efficiency in mind, weight and ergonomics, ergonomics
23 in particular.
24 The key element for maximizing range,
25 improving battery utilization, reducing recharge time,
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1 none of the vehicles even offer integrated charging.
2 First integrated demonstrated in 1989 EMPAC,
3 which would have enabled faster charging, higher
4 efficiency, greatly reducing infrastructure costs, and
5 nearly eliminate charger cost and weight.
6 I want to move over to some new information
7 based on the PZEV. I just want to briefly summarize a
8 study that was done by the Production Electric Drivers
9 Coalition.
10 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: How long will it take you to
11 summarize that?
12 MR. GREEN: Less than two minutes.
13 I just want to read these findings off,
14 because I believe they directly conflict with some of
15 the studies that were done by some of the car
16 companies, particularly Honda, and Honda did a survey,
17 these have been submitted in writing.
18 I just wanted to highlight a couple of points.
19 Number one, drivers were asked, over 100
20 drivers were asked and responded to the survey and one
21 of the questions was, have you purchased a second EV at
22 the end of your lease?
23 Only one person out of the 134 responded that
24 they had not purchased another vehicle, leased another
25 vehicle or were going to lease another vehicle, only
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1 one person was not going to.
2 How many times do you use the freeway?
3 99 percent of the people who responded to this
4 survey said that they use the freeway at least once per
5 week. This is particularly relevant in Southern
6 California.
7 With respect to NEVs, 90 percent of the
8 respondents responded that they would not be interested
9 in an NEV.
10 These are EV owners already. These are people
11 who are already predisposed to driving an electric
12 vehicle.
13 They asked about a city EV. 51 percent said
14 they might be interested as a second car. They might
15 even consider it as a primary car to replace their EV.
16 A non ZEV hybrid that had no ZEV range, 71
17 percent of the drivers indicated they would not be
18 interested in this type of vehicle; 81 percent however
19 indicated that they would be interested in a
20 hypothetical 50 mile ZEV range hybrid.
21 This particular option has not been explored
22 by the car companies. It's a big disappointment.
23 It clearly would be a bridge to getting more
24 people into electric drive vehicles.
25 If respondents had a ZEV range charger, they
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1 would charge at home all the time and use public
2 charging whenever possible so as to reduce the amount
3 of gasoline used, 85 percent responded with that.
4 Public awareness was indicated by 86 percent
5 of the respondents as the key issue, availability was a
6 key issue.
7 Issues that were not considered as important
8 were cost, variety vehicles, and the ability to buy
9 versus lease.
10 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
11 I think you made a good point, and I
12 appreciate the additional information.
13 MR. GREEN: I would like to respond about the
14 range and support the mandate.
15 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
16 Gary Graunke, Brad Swanson, and Stephen
17 Casner.
18 MR. GRAUNKE: Hi. My name is Gary Graunke, I
19 live near Portland, Oregon.
20 I rent EVs when I go to my old neighborhood in
21 Los Angeles, and I have had an EV Ranger on order since
22 March of this year, and I don't mind paying the extra
23 cost.
24 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: When will you get that?
25 MR. GRAUNKE: Good question.
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1 I asked my dealer that last week. I haven't
2 heard back. It takes them about a month to get my
3 order number. It reminds you of eastern bloc
4 economies.
5 Okay. I'd like to talk about the range
6 problem. The range problem, there is another side of
7 the range problem. My range problem, usually it is a
8 perception problem that it is not a gas vehicle, you
9 don't take it across the country usually.
10 The real range problem I felt, as I look back
11 at my commutes to work, I discovered that I currently
12 commute two miles to work, but my average over the last
13 25 years has been eight miles.
14 The longest I've ever commuted to work has
15 been 15 miles, although that was on a 65 mile an hour
16 freeway that goes over rivers that you can't really get
17 over without the freeway.
18 My cars die after about 35,000 miles
19 basically. The engine wear, they do not warm up by the
20 time that I get where I'm going. I suspect that they
21 pollute a little bit more than normal, and certainly my
22 fuel economy is less too.
23 So, these three effects are cured by getting
24 an electric vehicle. So, the electric vehicle really
25 solves the range problem where it is real, on the short
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1 end.
2 My wife drives even shorter trips to the
3 grocery store than I do. The oil crisis in the 70's
4 when I lived in Florida, and there were city cars for
5 the retirement community.
6 Let me tell you the difference between a
7 neighborhood vehicle and a real car.
8 A real car is crash tested. My Ranger has a
9 five-star rating. I can look this up on their web
10 page.
11 It is valuated by the Department of Energy,
12 and you should not sacrifice the long-term safety of
13 pollution for the short term one for getting killed.
14 If I wanted to buy a motorcycle, I'd do that.
15 But I really wanted a car.
16 Thank you.
17 To summarize, I believe there is plenty of
18 demand for this stuff. People still think electric
19 vehicles were NEVs. I did too, until I found out about
20 what you have done.
21 Finally, the last reason to stay the course,
22 you are on course, we need the batteries. We need the
23 volume on the batteries, and people pointed out the
24 fuel cells and other good things that you want to
25 happen, require you to stay the course.
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1 In the words of some company up in Oregon,
2 just do it.
3 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
4 Brad Swanson, Stephen Casner, and Ed
5 Blackmond.
6 Brad, are you here?
7 No.
8 Stephen Casner, and Ed Blackmond, and then
9 David Raboy.
10 MR. CASNER: My name is Stephen Casner. I'm
11 an EV 1 driver from Sunnyvale, and I was not able to
12 attend the earlier staff hearings, so I'm glad to take
13 time off work to come to this one.
14 I want to make two points. First, I would
15 like to ask the Board to see what direct role the state
16 may take in educating the public about these vehicles,
17 because I think that is one of the primary problems.
18 My principal example is when I went to get the
19 car, my wife let me have it, even though she was
20 skeptical, and now like others we fight for the car to
21 see who gets to drive it, I'm bumped off to the
22 bicycle.
23 The need for direct experiences, what Dr.
24 Kurani said yesterday, is really important, we need to
25 revive the slogan, try it, you'll like it, to get
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1 people into the car.
2 The second point, I think I'm going to say
3 something you don't often hear, my current EV 1 has
4 more range than I need and I would prefer to have the
5 Panasonic batteries because they give better
6 efficiency.
7 So, the second point is about cost, both in
8 efficiency in the amount of energy I have to put into
9 the battery, and the cost of the battery pack.
10 I believe the EV 1 with Panasonic batteries
11 would be a sweet spot. I don't know General Motors
12 costs, but I have to believe that they could produce
13 the existing EV 1 which is already designed with the
14 Panasonic lead acid batteries, and get credit if it
15 changes the scale like Tom Gauge suggested yesterday,
16 to produce a bunch more cars.
17 They won't do that unless you keep them
18 mandate and make them do it.
19 Thank you very much.
20 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
21 Ed Blackmond, David Raboy and Tom Koppel.
22 MR. BLACKMOND: Chairman Lloyd and Members of
23 the Board, my name is Ed Blackmond, and I live in San
24 Jose, California.
25 Yesterday, we heard from Ms. Garvey of the Bay
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1 Area Air Quality Management District, that surveys
2 showed that the range of the electric vehicle is not a
3 significant issue for Bay Area drivers.
4 After her testimony, we heard from Mr. Knight
5 from Honda, who said that range was essentially the
6 only reason that people walked away from the EV Plus.
7 Mr. Calhoun pointed out the contradiction in
8 these two testimonies.
9 As one of Ms. Garvey's Bay Area residents and
10 also one of Mr. Knight's customers, I think I could
11 probably clarify the confusion just a little bit.
12 I went to two dealers while shopping for my
13 EV-Plus in 1997. I knew the range limitations of the
14 car going in, and I never asked about it.
15 However, this was the main topic of the Honda
16 sales pitch. Within a few minutes of shaking my hand
17 and introducing themselves, both sales representatives
18 began talking about the limited range of the vehicle
19 and how I would have to change my lifestyle in order to
20 accommodate.
21 Mr. Calhoun, I ask you, who in their right
22 mind would not get up and walk away at this point?
23 Compare this to what I say when I talk to
24 people about my EV-Plus. First, I tell them it is the
25 best car I have ever driven.
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1 I talk about how I use the remote control to
2 turn on the air conditioner on a hot sunny day, five
3 minutes before I get into the car. I tell them about
4 the commanding driving position, high above other cars
5 on the road, and the superb headway made possible
6 because of the low center of gravity.
7 Of course, I tell them what it is like to
8 drive down the freeway at 70 miles an hour, with 4
9 adults in the car, carrying on a conversation, like
10 they are in the quiet of their living room.
11 I describe the simplicity of the motor with
12 one moving part, and compare that to the complexity of
13 15,000 moving parts that must all be working together
14 synchronously in order for the engine in their car to
15 operate properly.
16 I ask them which car they would like to drive
17 home late at night?
18 Range is an issue. When they ask me about
19 range, I ask them, when was the last time you drove
20 your cars more than a hundred miles in a day?
21 Would you have been able to change cars with
22 your spouse that day?
23 They always ask me, how can they get one, and
24 I have to tell them, they can't, because Honda does not
25 make them any more.
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1 I never saw an advertisement for EV-Plus that
2 presented it as a car someone would actually want. The
3 only ad I saw for the car was a picture of it plugged
4 into the wall with a caption referring to it as the car
5 with a cord, another subtle reference to its limited
6 range.
7 Why didn't Honda produce a television ad with
8 a slick animated graphic demonstrating the simplicity
9 of an electric motor versus the complexity of an
10 internal combustion engine?
11 After all, this is the company with the slogan
12 that says, we make it simple.
13 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Ed, are you drawing to a
14 close there?
15 MR. BLACKMOND: I'm getting there.
16 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: I know that, but how quickly?
17 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: It's a range issue.
18 MR. BLACKMOND: There is one point that I
19 wanted to bring up, and that has to do with the
20 automobile manufacturers lobbying against these
21 regulations, and the question is, why are they doing
22 that?
23 If you remember back in the 70's and 80's,
24 they did the same thing when the federal government was
25 requiring putting together regulations requiring
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1 passenger restraints in vehicles, and they told us we
2 would never buy a car with an air bag, and they even
3 developed these silly little seat belts that move on
4 tracks when you open and close the doors.
5 And one last thing, if you hold firm, the same
6 thing will happen with the electric vehicles.
7 I can already see commercials from the Ford
8 environmentalists, this is an SUV or maybe an ESUV,
9 that can not only take you into the wilderness but is
10 good for the wilderness.
11 It will not just have full-time four-wheel
12 drive, it will have an independently operating
13 electronically controlled motor for each wheel,
14 providing the exact traction you need for every
15 critical situation.
16 Now, I ask you, who would ever buy an SUV with
17 an internal combustion engine and a mechanical
18 differential if they could have one of those?
19 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
20 David Raboy is next.
21 MR. RABOY: Distinguished Members of the Board
22 and fellow citizens, hello, and thank you for the time
23 to take our public comments.
24 My name is David Raboy, and today I'm here as
25 a regular California concerned citizen. I'm also here
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1 today on behalf of the author, Tom Koppel, who
2 inadvertently got named as the next speaker.
3 Many of you recognize Tom's name from the
4 award winning book, Powering the Future, the Hybrid
5 Fuel Cell and The Race to Change the World.
6 Tom has authorized me to present his statement
7 to you. Here are his words.
8 I wish I could be there with you today in
9 Sacramento. Instead I have a prior commitment in Los
10 Angeles as a guest on the TV and radio show, Future
11 Watch, where I will be discussing fuel cells and our
12 clean energy future.
13 It is no coincidence that the program also
14 originates in California. California with the largest
15 population in the United States has long had a special
16 role and responsibility in leading the efforts to clean
17 air pollution.
18 As a journalist and an author who has followed
19 the development of fuel cells and related energy issues
20 for more than 10 years, I would like to say that
21 without the regulatory push provided by California,
22 this technology would be nowhere near as advanced as it
23 is today.
24 None of the major automobile manufacturers
25 were making any serious efforts to advance low or zero
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1 emission vehicles until California stepped in with
2 decisive measures.
3 They were quite ready to spend federal money
4 on fuel cell projects, for example, but not to make
5 commitments on their own.
6 It was only when Daimler-Benz, in the 1990s,
7 put money of their own into fuel cell vehicles that the
8 world took notice, and then when California ZEV mandate
9 established a fixed target date for the introduction of
10 zero emission vehicles, the rest of the automobile
11 industry finally got off their collective butts.
12 And what a surprise, what they had said was
13 impossible in less than 10, 20, or even 30 years,
14 proved to be obtainable in only five years.
15 Today, in the year 2000, the eyes of America
16 and indeed the rest of the world are on this very road.
17 Other states are watching to see what
18 California will do. The Federal Government is looking
19 to California.
20 Even where I live, in British Columbia, the
21 home of the leading fuel cell company power systems, I
22 regret to say that the potential -- government and the
23 government of Canada are waiting to see what California
24 does next.
25 California can maintain the pressure
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1 represented by the ZEV mandate, and a true revolution
2 in clean transportation will begin almost over night.
3 With a target date of 2003 to 2004, the
4 automobile companies will have to put up or shut up.
5 As we have seen with other emission control
6 and safety technologies, there is little doubt that
7 they can do this if they have the incentive, or
8 California could give them a few more years, and this
9 would turn into a decade of debate and delay.
10 We will witness a drawn out discussion of
11 which fuel is best for fuel cells, and what will the
12 public accept as the new technology, and who will pay
13 for it?
14 And a decade from now, they may still be
15 pleading for additional time or lesser penalties or
16 some form of voluntary compliance.
17 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Your time has
18 expired.
19 Can you wrap this up in another sentence or
20 two?
21 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: The witness list
22 does not indicate that the letter is submitted.
23 MR. RABOY: He said it was submitted through
24 E-mail.
25 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: If you would have
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1 a hard copy, if you could provide it over there.
2 Go ahead and conclude.
3 MR. RABOY: I will go ahead and conclude.
4 Just in conclusion, it does not have to be
5 that way. California has the power to lead the world
6 in the historic shift of priorities and direction right
7 here, now, today.
8 Please stand firm and uphold the mandate as it
9 currently is. Tom Koppel, author of Empowering the
10 Future.
11 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Thank you. If
12 you will provide that, we will appreciate it.
13 Next speaker is David Wilner.
14 Not here.
15 All right. The next in order would be Jerry
16 Pohorsky.
17 I hope I pronounced that correctly.
18 MR. POHORSKY: Good morning.
19 Thank you for the opportunity to speak to the
20 Board. My name is Jerry Pohorsky. I live in Santa
21 Clara, California.
22 I am a test engineer for Sun Micro systems.
23 Could you put the slides up, please.
24 One of my jobs there is to test Sun Micro
25 Systems products, that are new products, and determine
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1 if they are ready for production or not.
2 I have tested the 1997 EV 1, and it works for
3 me. It's ready for production. There is no need to
4 delay.
5 We have the technology to meet the zero
6 emissions three years ago. Why do we need to wait
7 until 2003? Let's get it on the road now.
8 They took mine away in March. I would like it
9 back. Maybe in January, February, March, next year.
10 Dr. Burke yesterday asked, 480 volts for fast
11 charging, I don't have that at my house.
12 You don't need it at your house. You need it
13 at the rest stop on I-5, after you've already driven
14 and exhausted your range. You need it at the corner
15 filling station.
16 I will pay $5 for a 50 kilowatt charge.
17 Please go on to the next slide.
18 Triple digit range, I have e-mailed Lisa a
19 photograph, and it's my last slide here, showing 130
20 mile range on a Panasonic car.
21 Next slide, please.
22 I've already made that point.
23 Nickel-metal hydride, there are a lot of
24 problems with it. Temperature. That is all they offer
25 in California.
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1 I want a Panasonic in California. My friend
2 in Georgia has it. My friend in Arizona has it, but I
3 can't get it.
4 Next slide, please. Oh, go back one.
5 Final bullet, automakers are driving with
6 their brakes on while the planet is being poisoned
7 here.
8 Take your feet off the brake, and we can make
9 some real progress.
10 Next slide.
11 A 100 kilowatt plus motors in these things,
12 the Toyota is a whimpy 67 kilowatts, let's get some
13 muscle here. The same thing with the Honda.
14 People want something when they step on the
15 pedal. Give me a four passenger EV. I can't get my
16 wife and kids in my EV 1.
17 Please don't give me this diesel hybrid crap.
18 Fast, kilowatt, 50 kilowatt, fast charging, 10
19 minutes. Panasonic has the batteries now.
20 They are in Japan. We need them over here.
21 They are not a member of the USABC, but they ought to
22 be.
23 Wait, last bullet.
24 Public education, most EV motorists are
25 clueless. Ask the guy behind you in the line at the
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1 supermarket, where can I get a zero emission vehicle?
2 They can't tell you.
3 Next line.
4 Okay. Some suggestions. Stop fighting the
5 mandate. We all breathe the air.
6 The automakers are choking on their own fumes,
7 and they won't admit it. Some guy in the back was
8 telling me, it's diesel, give me diesel, give me a
9 break. Stink-o-matic. Be pro-choice here.
10 I want a choice in a dealer showroom. I have
11 no choice.
12 Keep the mandate, strengthen it.
13 Next slide, please.
14 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: I think that
15 should be your benediction.
16 The red light is on, and we heard the message.
17 MR. POHORSKY: Next line, where do you want to
18 go today?
19 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.
20 Next on our list, Tom Darlington has already
21 spoken, so that brings us to David Packard, for the EV
22 Infrastructure.
23 MR. PACKARD: Hi. Dave Packard with Electric
24 Vehicle Infrastructure.
25 Just wanted to give you the perspective.
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1 Thank you for letting me come and speak today.
2 EV I was incorporated in 1994, strictly around
3 supporting the needs of the industry due to the
4 mandate.
5 We have shipped over 4,000 conductive units
6 into the market place and have developed some unique
7 technology that has applications in other markets.
8 However, the up and down market, the
9 production, stop production, has made running a
10 business very difficult for us as the years have gone
11 on.
12 As I said, we developed some unique
13 technology, one being in the unique software based
14 ground fault and ground monitoring detection system.
15 We developed dual chargers for use with the U.S. Post
16 Office and opportunity, and multiple charger technology
17 on a single pedestal, allowing inductive and conductive
18 to be mounted on the same pedestal.
19 Meeting all these standards has made units,
20 such as ours, probably the safest energy transfer
21 systems made today.
22 Here is our plug for our units. If you have
23 been to a public charging station, you have probably
24 seen them.
25 The ICS 200, which is our most sophisticated
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1 unit, and here is the first installation at the Post
2 Office, in Fountain Valley.
3 Economic impacts of the mandate has been
4 significant. We are a California company. We employ
5 anywhere from 10 and 30 employees.
6 Unfortunately, that has been up and down
7 through the years because of the marketplace, the stop
8 and start nature that we have gone through, instead of
9 a constant ramp-up to production.
10 We outsource a lot of manufacturing to local
11 companies, we use California-based distributors, and we
12 have numerous California-based installers and service
13 technicians.
14 Quite frankly, all of this goes away without
15 the mandate. It is strictly the only reason we are in
16 business.
17 Some of the secondary benefits, our technology
18 is allowing ground fault detection and ground
19 monitoring to go into marinas and RVs, which currently
20 have very little electrical protection, and people are
21 getting killed.
22 All because of the EV mandate, we now have the
23 technology to provide protection there, where there has
24 been none in the past.
25 Technology has applications in many industrial
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1 sites where there is no protection, and truck stops
2 where they are trying to stop trucks from running their
3 engines overnight to keep their cab cool and their load
4 cool, will now be able to have an electrical hook-up
5 that is safe and shut the engines off and stop
6 polluting.
7 Wrapping up, we feel that CARB should not make
8 an infrastructure decision on the market place mainly
9 because the cost impact is minimal.
10 The split between conductive and inductive
11 manufacturers is pretty much right down the middle.
12 Very few public installations are one unit.
13 They usually have two or more. Therefore, you just
14 split the numbers between the two different
15 technologies.
16 We have diesel and gasoline. Why not have
17 inductive and conductive?
18 However, if you must choose, we feel our
19 opinion that there are some important issues. Consider
20 the station costs, consider a non proprietary system,
21 so we have open competition in the market place, such
22 that had us come out with an $800 model as opposed to a
23 higher price, high feature model that we had before.
24 Competition forced that price down, and having
25 open competition is necessary in the market place.
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1 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.
2 The time has expired. We appreciate your
3 views.
4 Did you submit them in writing?
5 Excuse me. There are some questions from the
6 Members.
7 BOARD MEMBER McKINNON: Last night, we heard
8 some testimony about peak-power sell back from EVs.
9 Have you all looked at that?
10 MR. PACKARD: Briefly.
11 Until the automakers move on anything of that
12 nature, we do not get involved, because typically we
13 can move quicker.
14 We get involved in the programs like that and
15 design the station, because it's software-based, pretty
16 easy to accommodate that.
17 It is easy to me. I am Director of Business
18 Development. For the engineers, they would probably
19 say it is not so easy.
20 BOARD MEMBER McKINNON: There you go.
21 The other question that I have is, does your
22 company deal with fast recharging?
23 MR. PACKARD: We have developed a Level 2
24 Plus, they call it, for an AC level 3, an AC system
25 that delivers up to 40 kilowatts, using the motor
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1 controller as a rapid charger on board the vehicle,
2 which can allow rapid charging technology to be
3 installed at a minimal cost over what's installed
4 today, expecting to charge the vehicle in under an
5 hour.
6 BOARD MEMBER McKINNON: Thank you.
7 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: No more
8 questions?
9 Thank you.
10 The next speaker is Bill Frederick, of League
11 of Women Voters in California.
12 MR. FREDERICK: Good morning. I'm making a
13 grand entrance here.
14 My name is Bill Frederick, speaking here on
15 behalf of the League of Women Voters in California.
16 I'm a former Director of Natural Resources for the
17 League of Women Voters of Sacramento.
18 What follows, I think you have a copy there, I
19 can summarize pretty much everything in probably a
20 sentence or two.
21 One, we urge you to retain and strengthen the
22 Zero-Emission Program.
23 Two, I might add, that support of both of
24 those Leagues is with you on your endeavors here.
25 I think I can speak on behalf of both Leagues
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1 in saying that you, on behalf of the public need for
2 cleaner air, the Air Resources Board have been
3 persistent with the Zero Emission Vehicle program in
4 the face of what I would consider to be very great
5 odds.
6 That persistence is beginning to pay off with
7 greater public support. I think that is the way that
8 we view it.
9 You deserve a gold star. Thank you very much.
10 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.
11 Any questions or comments?
12 Thank you, Mr. Frederick.
13 The next speaker is Michael Lechner of EPRI.
14 MR. LECHNER: Thank you for the opportunity to
15 provide this presentation to the Board.
16 My name is Michael Lechner.
17 I am a consultant working for the Electric
18 Power Research Institute and pleased and honored to
19 report on behalf of the Hybrid Electric Vehicle Working
20 Group.
21 This times out in five minutes. If it is not
22 new and interesting information, let me know, and I
23 will cut to the chase.
24 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: We have changed
25 the time to three, but do the best that you can.
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1 Start over on the timer.
2 MR. LECHNER: In 1999, EPRI proposed the
3 formation of the Hybrid Electric Vehicle Working Group
4 as a means of pooling resources and interest of various
5 stakeholders.
6 This resulted in a $2-million collaborative
7 effort, both in funding and time support. Please note
8 the participants.
9 In 1999, we produced an interim report on
10 hybrid electric vehicles. This helped to catalog what
11 we knew and did not know and felt we needed to learn
12 about hybrid electric vehicles.
13 The rationale for the undertaking was to use a
14 systematic and unbiased approach, comparing the energy
15 emissions and efficiency and effect of benefits,
16 various hybrid vehicle designs, which could have a high
17 probability of meeting both driver needs and economic
18 constraints.
19 Next slide.
20 After this report came out, teams were formed
21 in the working group to look at specific areas
22 addressing vehicle modeling, vehicle costs, customer
23 acceptance, and willingness of customers and market
24 potential, commercialization issues both to identify,
25 quantify and qualify barriers to HEV commercialization.
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1 We looked at the three hybrid electric vehicle
2 platforms, small, midsized, sport utility vehicle. We
3 looked at four options within those platforms, you can
4 see those.
5 We used a 2000 Horizon, considering both
6 technology costs, improvement possibilities for vehicle
7 and technology improvements and vehicle construction.
8 Just one last point on that slide.
9 Additionally, to give you a feel for the
10 designs, conventional vehicle, 100 percent gasoline.
11 Next slide.
12 PO, P stands for parallel, we also considered
13 initially looking at series designed vehicles but
14 considered those to be more expensive than parallel
15 designs considering the need for a full-sized engine
16 and motor.
17 You see here a smaller engine, electric motor
18 supplementing that, 100 percent fuel is gasoline.
19 Next slide.
20 PO, P60, not only offering in these vehicle
21 designs 20 miles all electric range, 60 mile all
22 electric range, larger battery, same configuration as
23 the PO, but a plug-in option for recharging at night,
24 gasoline used on longer trips.
25 This vehicle, once the battery capacity is
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1 consumed on all electric driving mode, switches to
2 effective PO vehicle.
3 Next line.
4 A very important point here, though it's in
5 small print, we opted to, in those designs that I
6 showed you, make sure that they were designed such that
7 they had effectively equivalent performance.
8 This was done so that when we surveyed
9 customers about prospects of hybrid vehicle attributes,
10 performance of the vehicle was not an issue. All of
11 the vehicles performed effectively as the conventional
12 vehicle, what they were used, these are the principal
13 areas that we studied.
14 Next slide. Preliminary results, the final
15 report will be out next month.
16 Emissions, I won't read these for you, but
17 call your attention to the last item. The more the all
18 electric range feature is used, the greater the
19 emission benefits.
20 Next slide.
21 Again, last point, the more that the owner of
22 the, in particular, grid connector or all electric
23 range vehicle uses that feature, the greater the cost
24 savings to them.
25 Last slide. The customer acceptance, I want
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1 to spend just a second here.
2 The study indicates market potential for all
3 hybrid vehicles. Market potential is large if cost
4 equivalence is achieved.
5 The majority of the people surveyed preferred
6 plugging in a vehicle to going to the gas station.
7 In summary, thank you for the opportunity to
8 present and for your time and consideration.
9 We will provide a copy of the final report to
10 the Board as soon as it is available.
11 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: We appreciate
12 that.
13 Thank you, Mr. Lechner.
14 Any questions or comments?
15 Thank you.
16 The next speaker is Enid Joffe. I hope I
17 pronounced that correctly, from the Clean Fuel
18 Coalition.
19 Is Enid here?
20 Here she comes, hot coffee in her hand.
21 MS. JOFFE: Good morning.
22 My name is Enid Joffe, and I am President of
23 Clean Fuel Coalition.
24 We are a company that does the EV charging
25 infrastructure. I know you have heard a lot of
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1 testimony about the infrastructure as well as the cars,
2 and had a long couple of days, so I will try to be
3 pretty brief here.
4 I wanted to add my compliments to the staff
5 for the job that they did in both gathering the
6 testimony and putting the report together.
7 I think they achieved their goal of a very
8 even-handed report, and they cast their net wide in
9 terms of getting input, so I think you should
10 compliment them for a job well done.
11 We are a new business that was started after
12 Edison EV closed in November 1999. When Edison EV was
13 formed in January 1996, they projected to do the EV
14 charging infrastructure.
15 They projected a volume of 1000 cars a month
16 and built a business around that projection, invested a
17 lot of money in training contractors, developing
18 processes and procedures.
19 When, in fact, as you know, we had more like
20 1000 cars ever two years, so, the business had to
21 shrink to meet what the actual market was.
22 So, that is why a company like Edison EV now
23 have small start-up, former employees of Edison EV.
24 The processes are still in place. The
25 procedures are still in place. Essentially we are
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1 ready.
2 The infrastructure is in place, and we are
3 ready to continue to do it and to grow as the market
4 expands.
5 I think that is basically my main point. The
6 fact that five or six years ago, when you were
7 discussing this, infrastructure was the main obstacle
8 that was considered for EV charging, and now it's no
9 longer an obstacle.
10 Now you have, I'll just kind of run through a
11 couple of numbers with you, between Edison EV and our
12 company, we sold more than 3000 inductive and
13 conductive chargers, and about 1600 to 1800 of them
14 were to fleet customers.
15 We've installed charging in more than 500
16 homes. We've installed more than 400 public charging,
17 stations including 50 Costcos nationwide, 40 of those
18 are in California, 12 Hiltons, 4 Ralphs, 10 Texacos,
19 most major airports, many hospitals, and most of the
20 large malls and sporting venues that you see.
21 We've received a lot of help from many of the
22 agencies you have already heard from, the CEC, CARB,
23 BAAQMD, MRSC, Ventura County APCD, and many others.
24 I also want to mention the generous support
25 we've received from the automakers. First and
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1 foremost, GM, but also Ford and Honda, both residential
2 installations and for public charging.
3 The automakers had never had to think about
4 providing the fueling infrastructure along with the
5 vehicles. So, they were obviously very concerned, and
6 rightfully so, about the impact on the customer on
7 having to figure out how to get a charger installed.
8 The result was a very close partnership and
9 good working relationship to ensure that the car and
10 the charger arrived at more or less the same time.
11 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Will you
12 conclude, please?
13 MS. JOFFE: Okay.
14 My biggest concern right now is with the lack
15 of the availability in vehicles, the infrastructure is
16 already starting to atrophy.
17 We've already had phone calls from EV drivers
18 saying they are going to a public charging location and
19 were told, those cars aren't out there anymore, we shut
20 the chargers off.
21 If we don't see cars for another two or three
22 years, the infrastructure will definitely have
23 atrophied considerably.
24 We still get calls every week from
25 environmentally concerned businesses and public
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1 agencies who want to do infrastructure.
2 It amazes me that with the lack of cars, we
3 still get those phone calls, but that tells you what
4 level of interest there is out there.
5 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.
6 MS. JOFFE: I'm done, and you'll be hearing
7 from one of our contractors a little bit later.
8 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Are there any
9 questions or comments?
10 Thank you very much.
11 Steven Oddo is next.
12 MR. ODDO: Good morning. My name is Steven
13 Oddo. I come from San Francisco.
14 I drove my generation 2 EV 1 from San
15 Francisco yesterday for the proceedings. My letter has
16 proceeded me, which is nice to see.
17 I attended the March meeting as well. I would
18 have attended the L.A. meeting if there was a fast
19 charging infrastructure along the corridor from San
20 Francisco to L.A.
21 I'm an engineer in the computer field. I have
22 over 20 years experience in setting up manufacturers
23 production line and attest to a few of the problems,
24 engineering problems that people present to us.
25 When we hear something like, can't be done, as
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1 an engineer, we tend to take that as a challenge to
2 solve a problem.
3 If it can't be done, that is something we took
4 to heart and kept with. We would not have sent men to
5 the moon.
6 We basically would not have cars that are now
7 very clean. They are not clean enough, but they are
8 pretty clean.
9 If it weren't for engineering production
10 capability, we would not have, we would all be driving
11 Model A's basically, that were black with one added
12 feature, and that would be a gas mask.
13 I would like to say in support of the mandate,
14 I know this is not simply an Air Resources Board and
15 not the Air-Water Resources Board, but one note is that
16 in addition to air pollution, we are also taking on
17 serious water pollution, and it showed up in the
18 groundwater and all the reservoirs.
19 By keeping the mandate strong, that could be
20 curtailed, and that is very important.
21 One other major support item that I would like
22 to say is that in keeping the mandate I would hope that
23 ZEVs that are freeway capable would be given additional
24 credits.
25 Neighborhood vehicles could pose a threat to
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1 the success of the mandate, and I think that freeway
2 capability is something that is important to all of us.
3 Thank you for letting me speak.
4 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.
5 Any questions or comments?
6 Thank you.
7 Next speaker is Todd Dowling, then Paul
8 Pulliam, just for line up, and then Peter Welch.
9 First, Mr. Dowling.
10 MR. DOWLING: Thank you. My name is Todd
11 Dowling. I am an EV 1 driver from Folsom, California,
12 and I have had an EV 1 since January 1998.
13 My wife and I have had two EVs, until our
14 generation one was recalled, and we are hoping to be
15 back to having two soon, maybe early next year.
16 I would like to read to you a quotation in The
17 Sacramento Bee, on July 29.
18 People are not looking for less convenience,
19 said Honda Marketing Executive, with electrics you have
20 to plan your trips and think about where you are going.
21 It is a hassle and a headache.
22 Now, that is coming from the Marketing
23 Executive for Honda. Does not sound like a very
24 positive attitude toward promotion of the electric
25 vehicles.
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1 That does not represent the experience of any
2 electric vehicle drivers that I know. It certainly
3 doesn't represent my experience or my wife's
4 experience.
5 It may be a perception problem, but I'm sure
6 it is a perception problem among the people that do not
7 understand and are stuck in the gasoline vehicle
8 paradigm.
9 But as others have said, it is really more
10 convenient to have an electric vehicle than a gasoline
11 vehicle. You never have to go to the gas station, no
12 oil changes, no smog checks.
13 It has been a really positive experience, over
14 50,000 miles of electric vehicle driving that my wife
15 and I have done.
16 I have never been stranded or had any
17 inconvenience or problem, and the electric vehicle is
18 more convenient than our gas vehicle, which sits in the
19 garage.
20 In the months of July and August, we put less
21 than a hundred miles on the gas vehicle. That is
22 mainly because it was a four-passenger car.
23 I would say that electric vehicles are a big
24 success, and there is a large market, given some time
25 to develop that market and a sincere effort on the part
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1 of the people who are marketing them.
2 Thank you very much.
3 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Any questions?
4 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: This is a statement.
5 I'm an EV driver. I think that they are the
6 way of the future and part of the process of the
7 future, but I do not understand, everybody lives
8 different life styles, anybody who gets in an electric
9 vehicle and says that it does not change the way that
10 they think about organizing their day, does not live
11 the lifestyle that I live.
12 I have had to reorganize my entire way of
13 doing business and plan where I am going to make sure I
14 do not run out of juice.
15 I was joking about it yesterday, about the
16 power chargers at LAX, but I'm beginning to worry about
17 if they didn't fix it, I'm not sure I'm going to get
18 home.
19 Now, I am Chairman of the Air Quality
20 Management District, 5,000 square miles. Guy says I
21 will pay $5 for a quick charge, so would I.
22 If I got 5000 square miles, how many quick
23 charges am I going to put in?
24 I'll tell you something else, I can't drive my
25 nickel-cad Toyota Rav4 from my house in Marina Del Rey
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1 to Diamond Bar and back in one charge.
2 For the guy who is really supporting these
3 things and promoting them, you know that is not a good
4 statement.
5 I'm going to continue to support them. I'm
6 going to continue to promote them, but I want to deal
7 with the facts as they are.
8 I know that there are an enormous amount of
9 people in California who drive 20 miles a day, but I'm
10 not sure what the numbers are of those of us who have
11 to drive more miles than exceeds the capacity of the
12 car, EV vehicles.
13 MR. DOWLING: Well, sir, we have a gasoline
14 vehicle that we drive sometimes.
15 I've gone to Oregon a few times. I did not
16 take my EV 1 to Oregon, and I have taken trips where I
17 have not used my EV 1, and I have taken some trips
18 where it was less convenient to take the EV 1 because I
19 had made a conscious effort to do that.
20 However, I do recognize how that is not
21 convenient for everyone. Most people do drive less
22 than a hundred miles a day. On my normal day-to-day
23 driving, I drive about 50 miles a day, and that is not
24 a problem.
25 I hardly ever use the public recharging
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1 infrastructure.
2 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: I'm not picking on you.
3 This Board is statewide. 45 percent of the
4 cars in California are in the South Coast District. 50
5 percent of the people are in the South Coast District,
6 so, it is like all of the, half of the population fits
7 on a bullet hole in the map that is 1000 miles long and
8 it is like nothing, and their lifestyle is going to be
9 impacted by this mandate.
10 MR. DOWLING: I've rented a nickel-metal car
11 in Los Angeles area, I have been down there on business
12 and driven around, Santa Monica, Huntington Beach,
13 various places, and there is more infrastructure there
14 than there is in Northern California.
15 It works pretty well.
16 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: No question, because we
17 have two-thirds of the electric cars in the state, we
18 have 45 percent of the population, two-thirds of the
19 electric cars, because we are really pushing it.
20 We are looking for the answers. We are
21 supportive, but it is really difficult in a district
22 that is 5000 square miles.
23 People get up and say, if I had to drive 40
24 minutes to work, I would change my lifestyle. That is
25 easy to say until you have a family and you live in
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1 Ontario and you work in downtown Santa Monica.
2 MR. DOWLING: I don't feel that we have
3 changed our lifestyle at all.
4 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: People say how easy and
5 how they did not change their lifestyle.
6 I'm a proponent, so I changed my lifestyle,
7 but I agreed to do that, because I thought it was for
8 the better good.
9 But there are some people that I'm not sure
10 could do that.
11 MR. DOWLING: It's not a hundred percent
12 solution.
13 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Thank you very
14 much.
15 Any other questions?
16 Now, Mr. Pulliam. It says here that you are
17 the past President of the Electric Auto Association?
18 MR. PULLIAM: Yes, about 30 years ago.
19 I was trying to go AC at that time. I don't
20 have as many teeth now as I used to have. I have been
21 around, however, lots of places.
22 With respect to the question from the previous
23 gentleman, petroleum distillate, during World War II
24 and World War I, were used in diesel engines. They
25 were the best available.
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1 Now, they are antique. I will leave that.
2 There are other diesel fuels available, but
3 you should not go to the gas station and get what they
4 call diesel fuel.
5 Diesel built the engine that was lost in the
6 English Channel in the periods between World War
7 something or other, and he was using any oil he could
8 get, including peanut oil, to run his initial 12 or 14
9 horsepower engine.
10 I will get to what I want to say now. I've
11 lived in Sacramento for about 28 years. During most of
12 the time, there was a Colonel Edward Thomas, Jr.,
13 reserve retired.
14 About two years ago, I was talking north of
15 here, in another air base, at a meeting of the
16 American, at a meeting, and Colonel Thomas was there,
17 and every time I ceased talking, to take a breath, he
18 would butt in with the exact opposite statement.
19 Today is his funeral in Sacramento, and I am
20 here instead of there. Yesterday, I went out to the VA
21 Hospital, and they weighed me as 177 pounds. That is
22 not material to the issue here today that you are
23 talking about.
24 If you divided 177 pounds by 32.2 pounds, I am
25 a mass of five and half slugs.
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1 The persistent gravity that is existing on all
2 of us tends to hold us where we are. To move from
3 here, I need a force of one pound per mass to be able
4 to move.
5 That delays the start of a vehicle because it
6 does not start from zero force. It starts from one
7 pound per mass force.
8 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Mr. Pullium, your
9 time has expired.
10 We want to hear what your views are on this
11 mandate. Would you share that with us?
12 MR. PULLIUM: The end result is that the
13 electric vehicle starts with a sudden surge and then
14 goes up, and the power supply, five and a half pounds
15 of horizontal force is required to move me would have
16 to be accelerated to 100 feet per second to be one
17 horsepower.
18 To move a one ton battery, you have to apply
19 62 pounds of horizontal force to get it to start going
20 in the electric car.
21 That is too much mass. In my 17-page printout
22 that you should have, I go through the rigmarole of
23 saying all of the transmission, the drive train, the
24 differential is all surplus.
25 What you need, as one person mentioned here
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1 earlier, Ed Blackmond, a motor wheel, what I have
2 presented in the 17-page paper, is how four alternating
3 motors can be used at wheel speed, without gears to
4 propel the vehicle.
5 That is the main paint that I am trying to
6 say.
7 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: We appreciate the
8 written submission and being here and being here rather
9 than attending the funeral.
10 Thank you for taking the time and sharing
11 views.
12 Any questions or comments? Thank you, sir.
13 Next speaker would be Peter Welch.
14 MR. WELCH: Good morning, Mr. Chairman,
15 Members, I am Peter Welch with the California Motor Car
16 Dealers Association.
17 We are the 1600 franchised new car dealers of
18 the State of California that last year sold 1.8 million
19 new and 1.4 million used vehicles to Californians.
20 First of all, we are very proud of the fact
21 that we sell the cleanest cars in the world, and we are
22 very proud of this Board, that you have been able to
23 make us the people that sell the cleanest cars in the
24 world.
25 I just want to offer a few comments and make
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1 myself available to any member who would like to
2 further discuss this issue as we get done.
3 I want to talk about marketing issues
4 exclusively today.
5 We don't design, we don't manufacture for that
6 matter, we don't warrant the vehicle product that we
7 sell. That is what is in the purview of the
8 manufacturers.
9 Our members are merchants, and they are
10 service providers. They stock, sell, and service what
11 California consumers want to buy, own, and drive.
12 In this respect, I'd like to point out,
13 because I think it is often misquoted and
14 misunderstood, that the current ZEV regulation is a
15 production mandate.
16 It produces, it requires the large volume
17 manufacturers to produce and offer for sale in
18 California set percentage amounts of zero emission
19 vehicles.
20 Just a little bit of auto retailing 101, so to
21 speak. Vehicles are retailed in the State of
22 California by car dealers.
23 We buy inventory from our manufacturers from a
24 franchise agreement. The cars on the lots of the car
25 dealers across the street are owned by the car dealers.
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1 They are not owned by the manufacturers. They
2 are not there on consignment. We buy them from the
3 manufacturers point of delivery.
4 We buy them, hope to mark them up, and sell
5 them at a profit. The profits on the vehicle are
6 usually in the three to four percent range.
7 We've had some bummers here the last couple of
8 years. It is a cyclical business.
9 We have some real market concerns for our
10 dealer members and for our California consumers with
11 respect to how we are going to make the ZEV mandate
12 work on the numbers that are dictated.
13 I will tell you that our dealer members, and I
14 have talked to a great many of them over the last 6 or
15 8 years as we have been grappling with the mandate, on
16 how they are going to sell, are they going to sell, is
17 there a market out there, we can not honestly tell you
18 today what the market conditions are going to be in
19 2003.
20 I can tell you, for your benefit, because
21 these are retailers that have more experience than
22 anyone in the world on selling cars, they say, I don't
23 think we are going to meet the quotas in 2003.
24 Now, there are factors that can change that,
25 disruption in worldwide oil supplies, spikes in gas
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1 prices, huge subsidies would probably do the job.
2 I will not belabor it. I passed out a letter
3 today on all the obstacles you have heard.
4 Your staff has done a great job in listing all
5 the potential market obstacles. I am just going to hit
6 a few of them.
7 The number one obstacle is the internal
8 combustion engine. We are not going to sell EVs in a
9 vacuum.
10 When somebody walks in the door, there are
11 going to be lots of choices. We represent 28
12 manufacturers. There are 500 lines out there,
13 including trim lines that you could pick from right
14 now.
15 The durability, the cost effectiveness, the
16 recharging ability of the internal combustion engine is
17 going to give great pause to consumers to throw away
18 what they know is a sure thing and jump over to
19 electric vehicles.
20 I have driven the cars. I know they are
21 wonderful cars. I know that most people don't drive
22 100 miles a day, but it is a perception thing, and it's
23 a huge perception thing.
24 Battery and range, not going to spend time on
25 it, selling a $10,000 battery in addition to a $20,000
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1 car is a marketing challenge. I will say no more.
2 Lack of infrastructure, resale value, what is
3 the resale value going to be?
4 This is a very important factor in the car
5 business. Most people who buy a new car have a trade
6 in. They build up equity in that vehicle.
7 We don't know what the resale value is going
8 to be.
9 I will move along.
10 Pricing utility, those are the big factors
11 that people buy cars on. The average transaction price
12 for a 1999 car was $29,250, 93 percent of it financed,
13 average deal, 52-month loan.
14 Last year it was 6.6 percent interest rate.
15 We are up 150 basis points on that. Average monthly
16 payment, $463.00 a month.
17 That is a lot of money a month, and people
18 demand and expect a lot from that.
19 With a $20,000 price incremental added on
20 that, now we have a $43,000 car, $900 a month payment.
21 These are real problems that we have to deal with when
22 somebody comes in and tries to finance a car.
23 That is a real problem.
24 Then there is a choice. You want the best
25 selling Ranger, MSRP $10,700, the lead acid battery one
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1 is $34,000, nickel-metal hydride, $48,000.
2 You can go down the street and buy a Lexus for
3 that kind of money and those kind of payments.
4 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Could you bring things to a
5 close, please?
6 MR. WELCH: Certainly.
7 We have what's known as a market clearing
8 price theory. We like to believe that there is a price
9 for which we could sell every vehicle on the lot. We
10 don't have the resources to buy down and subvent the
11 product that we buy.
12 If we buy a car for $40,000, and we have a
13 market clearing price in the real market as $30,000, we
14 take a $10,000 loss, we do not order another one.
15 We don't order more. The factory doesn't
16 build more. That is the reality of the market place.
17 We have to find a way to either shrink the
18 incremental price, add subsidies to it.
19 If you think that the auto manufacturers are
20 going to absorb the incremental price, you do not know
21 them as well as we do.
22 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: I don't think we have any
23 illusion there.
24 MR. WELCH: Okay. We believe --
25 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: What I meant there, I think
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1 you've heard, and we have recognized, that cost is an
2 issue.
3 We also figure many ways of addressing that.
4 But we don't disagree with you.
5 MR. WELCH: Well, how is it going to happen in
6 the market place?
7 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: We will talk about that
8 later.
9 Have you met with the staff to discuss this
10 issue?
11 MR. WELCH: Yes, we have.
12 We urge you to continue on with your efforts
13 of electric vehicles. We believe that electric
14 propulsion and electric motors will, in the near
15 future, be propelling our vehicles.
16 We are power plant neutral on our cars. We
17 will stock and sell what anybody wants.
18 Thank you.
19 BOARD MEMBER CALHOUN: Peter, before you go
20 away, you reminded us of the requirements of the law,
21 the manufacturers are required to make available for
22 sale 10 percent or whatever the percentages are, but
23 the dealer sells the vehicles.
24 You also mentioned the fact that the vehicles
25 that you see on the dealers lot have been purchased by
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1 the dealer.
2 Do any of the dealers stock or to your
3 knowledge, have any of them stocked an electric
4 vehicle?
5 MR. WELCH: Well, as part of the MOAs, our
6 dealers are all the designated sale and lease points
7 for those vehicles.
8 I do not want to pass any illusions here that
9 the MOA program is anything related to what the real
10 market is going to be for electric cars, those vehicles
11 were sold in limited numbers.
12 They were all heavily subventive, prototype
13 handmade cars, and practically leased directly from the
14 manufacturer at subventive places. There was nothing
15 natural about the market place.
16 To use that as a market example I suggest is
17 very misplaced.
18 BOARD MEMBER CALHOUN: The thrust of the
19 question is whether the dealers would pre purchase an
20 EV, or were most of the orders sole orders?
21 MR. WELCH: It varies from the manufacturer to
22 manufacturer, product to product.
23 The EVs were stocked by the Saturn dealers. I
24 have one of the Saturn dealers in Orange County leased
25 more Saturns than anyone sold. I think 75, 3 years.
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1 Big enthusiast.
2 He had a bunch of them on the lot. There were
3 subvention programs that the manufacturers had
4 inventory subvention to help the dealers out.
5 So far, we haven't been nicked on this thing.
6 Our concern is that we do not want 1000 of these things
7 sitting on our lot. Somebody is going to get stuck
8 holding the hot potato if they don't sell.
9 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: Could I ask a question of
10 Ms. Walsh?
11 The dealers purchase cars from the
12 manufacturers, our mandate is on now it is really
13 allowed, right? Our mandate is on the manufacturers,
14 if the mandate is not met, who do we go against?
15 What if the manufacturers say, I'm not doing
16 this and I do not care what you say. So we go to the
17 attorney general and give them the case, who do they go
18 against?
19 Is that against the dealer and factory because
20 the fact is if he says if the dealer does not take it I
21 live in Detroit, or I live in Ohio and my manufacturing
22 plant is in Ohio.
23 So, I cannot sell in California without a
24 distribution system, and if the distribution refuses to
25 participate, how can I do this?
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1 MS. WALSH: As the regulation is written, at
2 the close of the following model year, when there is
3 reconciliation whether the manufacturers have met their
4 percentage requirement, there is a provision for a
5 $5,000 per vehicle penalty, and that would be imposed
6 on the manufacturer of the vehicle.
7 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: It is cheaper for them
8 not to make any and pay the penalty is what you're
9 saying?
10 MS. WALSH: That is not what I am saying.
11 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: That is what you just
12 said.
13 It is a $5000 penalty. They say they are
14 losing $20,000, $50,000, $100,000, so it is cheaper to
15 pay the penalty. We have to raise the penalty.
16 MS. WALSH: Certainly if it was clear to us
17 that the manufacturer was not complying with the law,
18 there are other legal remedies available for us in
19 terms of certification actions, injunctions, and the
20 like.
21 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: I'm not sure. Could you
22 deny certification of the model because it did not do
23 something in another mandate?
24 Is that possible?
25 MR. KENNY: I will help a bit.
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1 Essentially, Dr. Burke, you are correct. If
2 the manufacturers choose not to participate, they are
3 subject to a $5,000 per vehicle penalty.
4 At the same time, what they are also subjected
5 to is essentially the public knowledge that in fact
6 they chose not to participate in the market for
7 whatever reason.
8 There are things that go with that. The
9 public image loss, the inability to maintain technology
10 or competitiveness, and those things will hurt them on
11 market share.
12 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: I'm sorry.
13 BOARD MEMBER CALHOUN: That is where we
14 ultimately end up, the auto manufacturers, in my
15 perception, they don't want to be viewed as
16 uncooperative, but they don't want to lose money, so
17 they are running a business, and if we have to think or
18 take that into consideration.
19 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you.
20 Could I ask you a question? How many auto
21 dealers are there now?
22 MR. WELCH: 1600 franchise new car dealers in
23 the state.
24 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: How many in 1990?
25 MR. WELCH: I would have to get the charts, I
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1 don't have them with me.
2 There were probably about 2000.
3 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: You are in decline?
4 MR. WELCH: That is correct. There is market
5 consolidation.
6 Internet is playing a big part of it. The
7 market areas are growing and access and ability to it.
8 We are finding that larger dealerships with satellite
9 service centers, the market is always changing.
10 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: It just occurs to
11 me that perhaps the electric vehicle would more than
12 the tradition vehicle even with new models and
13 advances, be more susceptible to sale at lot, that is,
14 rather than on-line, because of the discussions that we
15 have heard about the need for education and need to
16 test drive and desire to test drive, do you have any
17 sense of whether this would be setting aside the cost
18 consideration, that I realize is real and maybe hard
19 for some to set aside, but with that aside, is this
20 something that restricts a dealership interest?
21 MR. WELCH: Professor, in today's market,
22 marketing automobiles is very sophisticated, and the
23 fact of the matter is that we make vehicles for sale in
24 virtually all of the medias.
25 84 percent of our dealers have websites right
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1 now. That is growing daily.
2 Most people want to test drive electric
3 vehicles at least so far, has been more labor intensive
4 in its marketing, because of the obstacles that we have
5 to explain and coax the customer to come in.
6 We are as excited as anyone with this product,
7 we see it as a future thing, too, and we are not
8 against electric vehicles. We are not against the Air
9 Resources Board forcing technology to bring it to
10 market.
11 I would like to make two other points though.
12 Your great success in the last 20 years have really
13 hinged on two fundamental principles.
14 You have forced technology that has resulted
15 in incremental model change cost. Most consumers have
16 not even noticed a $50 gizmo under the hood, a $200
17 catalytic converter and so on.
18 The other thing that has been unique about
19 this Board is that all of the technology that has been
20 forced has been virtually transparent to the consumer.
21 It's under the hood. The knobs haven't
22 changed, the steering wheel and so forth.
23 So, they have been able to go into a
24 dealership, been able to afford a car, they have been
25 able to jump in a car, the horsepower has been the
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1 same, it's actually going up.
2 You have broken both of the rules with this.
3 You've got an incremental cost that we all think
4 consumers are going to go for, and I don't know if this
5 is breaking the rule, but electric vehicles are very
6 different than other cars, they are not transparent to
7 the consumer.
8 It takes a big jump. And we are in the
9 numbers game here.
10 The average person that buys a car is not the
11 techno-sophistocated person, they are not the
12 millionaire. They are Jill and Joe sixpack.
13 They are your next door neighbor. The guy
14 down the block. The unmarried woman with three kids.
15 All over the board.
16 We fulfill all of those transportation needs.
17 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Clearly, just a comment on
18 that, it is very clear that we are looking at the
19 longer term, and we are looking at evolution from the
20 internal combustion engine to the electrical engine.
21 That is not going to be easy.
22 On the other hand, if we go about business as
23 usual, I don't think the state or the planet can
24 sustain that.
25 We get hungry or thirsty. There has to be an
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1 end somewhere. We are trying to look at how we can
2 accommodate all these things to keep you in business,
3 to keep our air clean and to keep the public health
4 improving.
5 MR. WELCH: It has to be market driven, not
6 supply driven.
7 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: I understand and I think we
8 hear the message very clearly that we need to work
9 together to get where I think all of us need to go.
10 BOARD MEMBER McKINNON: At great risk of
11 extending this hearing, let me ask you for reaction,
12 and if you do not have anything to support it, feel
13 free to ignore the question.
14 But one thing that occurs to me is that once a
15 month my wife decides to take a hike and uses the
16 four-wheel drive in the vehicle.
17 We paid for the four-wheel drive when we
18 bought the vehicle, and we use it once a month.
19 I looked at a Suburban out front last night
20 that plugs in. I do not know that they have gone to
21 this extent, but it seems to me that a lot of Joe six
22 packs would be happy to buy something that got them to
23 work and back on electricity, but had gasoline to get
24 them to the lake or river, or to go hunting or fishing,
25 or you name it.
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1 There is a discussion about plug-in hybrids.
2 To me that represents the kind of thing that is a
3 consumer choice. It's added value, something else that
4 I can do with the vehicle.
5 We have not seen or heard too much about that.
6 I am interested in your reaction to that.
7 MR. WELCH: First of all, as I mentioned
8 before, we don't design them, we don't manufacture
9 them.
10 BOARD MEMBER McKINNON: You sell them.
11 MR. WELCH: Yes, we sell them. And you are
12 right, we have so many market segments right now and
13 California is unlike any other state on the market.
14 The niches go on forever. You are seeing
15 vehicles with all sorts of configurations as we roll
16 off the sport utilities with bicycle racks and washing
17 machines in the back, and all sorts of things with
18 respect to them.
19 Is there a market for a car like that?
20 How many are we going to sell and what is the
21 price going to be?
22 This price issue is very sensitive. Our
23 number one problem today is qualifying people for
24 finance.
25 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: With record sales, that
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1 is not too big of a problem.
2 If you are selling record numbers of cars, you
3 are qualifying people.
4 Can I ask Mr. Kenny one more question?
5 If the manufacturer is the one that held
6 responsible, is there any incentive that we give to the
7 dealers to do this?
8 Because it seems to me, part of the one of the
9 major parts of this problem is that if you go into the
10 dealership, there is no real motivation for, even
11 though the manufacturers have hired a specific person
12 to deal with this, there is no motivation for this guy
13 to sell, because he is probably on a salary, and the
14 dealer does not want to be bothered with this because
15 it is not a high volume item.
16 Is there anything in mind for the dealers to
17 incentivize them?
18 MR. KENNY: We do not provide incentivising to
19 buying down the cost of the vehicle down. That is
20 something to look at.
21 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you.
22 I think we are going to take one more witness
23 and then the court reporter needs a break. We will
24 take Tim Frank of the Sierra Club, and then we will
25 take a 10-minute break.
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1 MR. FRANK: Thank you very much.
2 It will be easy to keep my comments brief
3 because many of my colleagues have made the points that
4 I need to make.
5 I just wanted to provide you with context
6 here. 90 percent of Californians still breathe air
7 that is dangerously polluted, and we all still live in
8 a world threatened by global warming.
9 As all of you know, we need to make progress
10 toward solving these problems. But that progress is
11 complicated by the fact that in California, over the
12 next 40 years, gasoline consumption is expected not to
13 shrink but grow by 40 percent.
14 A big part of the reason this is the case is
15 the extent to which the auto companies have exploited
16 the light truck loop hole, which has provided us with
17 the SUVs, as you know, consume so much more gasoline
18 than regular model cars.
19 They have done so not because they are bad
20 people but rather they have been tempted by windfall
21 profits, and they acted not because of being bad people
22 but they are human and following human nature.
23 It is reasonable for us to actually look at
24 answers to this problem, and ZEV is a very important
25 part of the answer.
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1 It is working. It has driven the development
2 of important technology, as you know, and it has been
3 financed by a large extent by auto companies responding
4 to the requirements that you put upon them.
5 And these are requirements in light of the
6 windfall profits they have made on selling SUVs. It is
7 actually reasonable, and consequently, we encourage you
8 to maintain the ZEV mandate.
9 In addition, we would like to pledge our
10 support not only for your work but for the ultimate
11 challenge of marketing the vehicles as John White noted
12 yesterday, the Sierra Club is eager to be part of the
13 solution and support the State bill that will provide
14 us with subsidies to the owners, and we are eager to
15 help in the marketing of these vehicles as well.
16 We would like to help in thanking and
17 rewarding and awarding the companies that do the right
18 thing and help introduce the companies that help with
19 this problem.
20 Thank you very much.
21 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Do you personally
22 drive a ZEV?
23 MR. FRANK: The answer is that I do not drive
24 a ZEV, but I would enjoy the opportunity to purchase a
25 ZEV.
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1 BOARD MEMBER FRIEDMAN: I have a question of
2 staff, because it has been puzzling me for two days
3 now.
4 I'm trying to figure out what the rationale
5 has been for not putting the large SUVs that we
6 discussed a couple of months ago in the denominator
7 with respect to the calculation of the requirements for
8 ZEVs, and it puzzles me, because I thought that we
9 concluded that an infinitesimal portion of those large
10 pseudotrucks are used as passenger vehicles.
11 Help me understand why we have excluded them.
12 MR. CACKETTE: There are a couple of reasons.
13 One is this mandate was done 10 years ago, and SUVs
14 were not quite the fad, and trucks were trucks and less
15 passenger vehicles at that time.
16 Also, the general thinking was that EVs were
17 not viable but in the smaller vehicle categories,
18 because they have to carry less battery around with
19 them.
20 I think maybe our thinking didn't go beyond if
21 you are going to have 10 percent of EVs in the market
22 place, we ought to divide by the size of the cars that
23 they went into.
24 I don't think it went beyond that.
25 The comments about trying to change the
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1 denominator I think are definitely worth some
2 additional thought.
3 BOARD MEMBER FRIEDMAN: I presume there will
4 be a number of things that we are going to want to
5 follow-up on and that would be one of them.
6 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
7 We will take a 10-minute break and after that
8 we return with Tom Adams, Bill Magavern and Andrew
9 Frank.
10 (Thereupon a brief recess was taken.)
11 MR. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, Members of the
12 Board, my name is Tom Adams.
13 I work for the City and County of San
14 Francisco, in the Clean Air Program. I brought several
15 items that I want to share with you today.
16 First, I have a letter from Mayor Willie Brown
17 that I will set on top of all the other letters here.
18 You have a copy of that.
19 The Mayor has been very supportive of electric
20 vehicles in the past. He was there for the opening of
21 General Motors EV 1 out at Treasure Island in the Bay,
22 in San Francisco Bay.
23 As I say, he is a large supporter, and he
24 would like to see the mandate kept as is.
25 Second, I have a Resolution from the Board of
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1 Supervisors here, and you have a copy of that as well.
2 The Resolution is basically saying the same thing, keep
3 the mandate, keep the path.
4 One of the Supervisors, Supervisor Newsome,
5 drives an EV 1 as his personal vehicle. It is parked
6 in front of City Hall every day, and he seems to enjoy
7 it, and he is a big proponent as well.
8 Third, there is an editorial in yesterday's
9 paper, and I will say a few things about that. It is
10 from Supervisor Tom Amiano, who passed Legislation,
11 sponsored and passed Legislation, a couple of years
12 ago, mandating that the City itself buy 10 percent of
13 the City's vehicle purchases must be zero emission
14 Vehicles.
15 The editorial goes into some of the problems
16 we have had with acquiring the vehicles.
17 I've noticed the automakers say there is not a
18 market for these electric vehicles.
19 We take the position that there is not a
20 market for them as well. Where can you buy one?
21 You cannot find a market for them.
22 We think there is a demand. Create some
23 markets and have them readily available and people will
24 buy them. I think it is that simple.
25 I think that is about it, but I have to say
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1 today, we just wanted to stress again that we have seen
2 a large reluctance on the part of the automakers to
3 provide the vehicles, and they just haven't been
4 available.
5 We have not been able to meet our own mandate
6 to purchase them for the city's fleet.
7 We currently have 12 pickups. The EV 1 is a
8 great car, but it is not a great fleet car for us.
9 We are a fairly conservative organization. We
10 have to test these vehicles and see that they work, and
11 we would like to see a four-passenger sedan out there
12 for lease or purchase, and we are ready to buy when it
13 is available.
14 If you have any questions.
15 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you. Thank you for
16 coming.
17 Bill Magavern, then Professor Frank.
18 MR. MAGAVERN: Mr. Chairman, thank you for the
19 opportunity to speak and thank you for pronouncing my
20 name correctly, which is not often done.
21 My name is Bill Magavern, and I represent the
22 Committee to Bridge the Gap on Environmental Health
23 Issues.
24 Today you have a historic opportunity to
25 continue and enhance your role as the world leader in
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1 reducing emissions from motor vehicles.
2 Since it is a historical moment, I thought it
3 would be appropriate to provide some historical
4 context, which is very important because history shows
5 that the auto manufacturers only make improvements when
6 the government requires them to do so.
7 The auto companies have gone to great lengths,
8 sometimes criminal lengths, to keep green technology
9 off the market.
10 In the late 40's, GM and the oil and tire
11 companies were convicted of replacing clean efficient
12 electric urban trolley systems with polluting diesel
13 busses.
14 In the late 60's, California Representative
15 Phil Burton released the Justice Department's criminal
16 memo showing that the auto industry conspired to defeat
17 pollution control equipment even while lying to public
18 officials about how they were trying to develop those
19 technologies.
20 The auto companies fought the tailpipe
21 emission standards that were required by the 1970 Clean
22 Air Act, and in fact, once they lost, were able to meet
23 those standards through the use of catalytic
24 converters.
25 In the mid 70's, when the U.S. was faced with
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1 the first oil crisis, Congress doubled the fuel
2 efficiency of new cars through the CAFE standards.
3 Fortunately, Congress was wise enough not to be
4 persuaded by the auto companies arguments that these
5 standards were unattainable, would result in enormous
6 job losses to American workers, and would outlaw the
7 family car.
8 Arguments that we are still hearing to defeat
9 the required improvement in fuel efficiency technology.
10 And finally, I believe that your own
11 experience with the 1996 memorandum of agreement
12 demonstrates that the auto companies will go only as
13 far as government requires them to go.
14 It would be very nice if the auto companies,
15 particularly the large manufacturers, would take the
16 lead themselves in putting on the market the green
17 technologies that are essential to cleaning up our air.
18 Since that is not the case, as history shows,
19 it is up to you ladies and gentlemen, and I have faith
20 that you are more than up to the task.
21 Thank you very much.
22 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much, indeed.
23 Professor Frank, Rue Phillips, Harvey Eder.
24 MR. FRANK: I do not have any handouts, but I
25 brought some pictures that should be worth a thousand
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1 words, and I brought an example out here of a real car
2 that should be worth 100,000 words.
3 So, I'm sure you have plenty of things to
4 read.
5 I'm for the mandate in this present form, or
6 if it is going to be modified, it should be modified to
7 my opinion with more PZEV credits and less ZEV credits.
8 We have heard from everyone that ZEV is maybe a little
9 premature, 8 percent, 2 percent, instead of 6 percent,
10 4 percent is a possibility.
11 But whatever is decided, I hope you hold it
12 constant, because technology needs time to develop.
13 PZEV can be satisfied -- by the way, the
14 concept of PZEV can be satisfied by plug-in hybrids
15 rather than pure expensive hybrids. For example,
16 Chrysler said they would have to build 32,000 PZEVs.
17 If they built plug-in hybrids, they could get
18 the same ZEV credits with only 6000. To me,
19 manufacturers have a clear choice.
20 They could build these plug-in hybrids and not
21 have to ramp up to high numbers.
22 I wish to invite the Board to come out and
23 look at the example, which is worth 100,000 words, and
24 this plug-in hybrid is an SUV. It's a Chevrolet
25 Suburban and designed to give nine-tenths of a ZEV
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1 credit.
2 It essentially uses 90 percent of electricity
3 out of the wall and 10 percent gasoline.
4 However, it has all the performance, and
5 contrary to some other oil manufacturers who do not
6 understand the concept, it can perform like a standard
7 SUV from full charge to minimum charge which is about
8 20 percent.
9 So, because it is plug in, travel costs are
10 reduced, as emissions, 10 percent of the conventional
11 car, unlimited range. You can drive across the country
12 on one charge. One-half the battery cost of an EV, and
13 fast charge is not required, and it will ultimately
14 enhance pure EV development.
15 I'm not against EVs. The power train is much
16 simpler, 70 to 80 percent of the parts of a
17 conventional car, and vehicle cost without battery, as
18 Bob Stempel said yesterday, vehicle costs without
19 batteries is equal to or lower than a conventional car.
20 But we only have one-half the batteries. So,
21 if you lease those batteries, the cost of leasing a
22 hybrid battery versus a pure EV would be about five
23 cents a mile, and that is less than the cost of
24 gasoline at $1.50 a gallon.
25 The statement is, please do not change the
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1 mandate. If you do, up the PZEV credits.
2 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you for your leadership
3 in this area.
4 I think that the work that you are doing in UC
5 Davis is a great benefit to us and manufacturers and
6 the people in California. Keep up the good work.
7 The question here on the vehicle, on the
8 Suburban, if you took that Suburban and you went
9 camping with that, can you use the electricity from the
10 battery to provide all your needs?
11 MR. FRANK: You certainly can. One of the car
12 magazines is, at the end of this month, we are going to
13 take it on a camping trip.
14 It will be a publicity stunt. We will have
15 six students going on the camping trip.
16 That Suburban electrically will haul a 7,000
17 pound trailer, including four-wheel drive. Somebody
18 mentioned four-wheel drive. Not a problem as well.
19 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: In your judgment, if this was
20 in production, what is the sort of delta one might
21 expect to pay for something like that?
22 MR. FRANK: No more than a conventional car if
23 you lease the batteries.
24 We have done a whole series of studies. If
25 you take the batteries out, as Bob Stempel mentioned
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1 yesterday, the cost of this vehicle is less than the
2 conventional car. Adding the batteries, and if you
3 lease the batteries, it becomes almost equivalent,
4 because the lease cost is equivalent to buying
5 gasoline.
6 Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
8 Rue Phillips, Harvey Eder, then Robert
9 Fairchild.
10 MR. PHILLIPS: Good morning. My name is Rue
11 Phillips, I am an electrical contractor from Seal
12 Beach, Orange County.
13 In the summer of 1996, I was selected from
14 around 200 California contractors to be part of the
15 Edison EV certified contracting team.
16 After technical training on special EV
17 installation methods, I setup my company and staff to
18 be excited for the new EV adventure.
19 Soon after the initial EV launch, I was proud
20 to install the very first General Motors EV 1 off the
21 line in California.
22 Since 1996, I have installed several hundred
23 EV chargers throughout Southern California. In fact,
24 it has become my prime source of business.
25 Myself and my employees have become highly
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1 efficient in the installation of EV chargers, in
2 hospitals, city halls, train stations, airports, and
3 corporate companies, such as Radon, Disney, Texaco, and
4 Arco.
5 From my first-hand experience in the field, I
6 believe that the public interest in the EV is at a
7 public high. I witness this time and time again when
8 I'm in the middle of a hot parking lot installing these
9 chargers.
10 I see a genuine interest and excitement from
11 the public, especially when I explain what I am
12 installing.
13 When I install EV parking only signs, with a
14 nice AD stripe for a path to the store, I get more
15 thumbs up from customers than complaints, because I'm
16 taking up the best parking spaces.
17 I actually see in the fields that the public
18 appreciates that EV and clean fuel vehicles are for the
19 future.
20 I have become well-accustomed in answering
21 questions like, how much is it to charge the cars and
22 how far do the cars go? What do you mean public
23 charging is free?
24 When I first started in stores installing EV
25 chargers in 1996, pulling a city permit was like
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1 pulling teeth.
2 The usually simple process took days, and a
3 usually simple installation relative to installing an
4 electric drier circuit in your home could take over a
5 month to get final approval.
6 Since then, through seminars and personal
7 training through engineers, building inspectors have
8 become more accustomed to the set standard that they
9 helped mold, and we, the installers, strictly adhere
10 to.
11 I personally believe that over the past four
12 years, everyone involved in the EV program has been
13 laying the carpet for the future. A lot of the carpet
14 is laid.
15 What a total waste of funds, time, effort, and
16 hard work and enthusiasm it would be if interests and
17 support in the EV program were to cease.
18 I applaud the insights and grand efforts from
19 companies like General Motors, Toyota, and Ford, and
20 companies like SMUD and clean fuel connections whose
21 enthusiasm far surpass their financial interest in this
22 technological arena.
23 As a proud certified network contractor, I
24 stand by this technology and its future. Along with my
25 colleagues, I ask the State to help show our children
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1 that we are on the right track.
2 I am ready to go, just show me where you want
3 the chargers.
4 Dr. Burke, a network contractor is in the
5 process of giving you an estimate for your new charger
6 so that your range in distance will not be a problem in
7 the near future.
8 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: But the problem was he
9 wouldn't put it in a raised spot, because he said it
10 was a fire danger, so he wanted to put it where my
11 garbage cans were, and my wife will not let me put it
12 there.
13 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
14 The advantage of knowing the next witness, I
15 also know that getting Harvey to keep the time will be
16 a challenge.
17 Harvey.
18 MR. EDER: Good morning. I'm here to talk
19 about solar energy.
20 I'm with Executive Director of the Public
21 Solar Coalition/Citizen. PSPC started in 1978 in
22 testifying and working as a consultant with the State
23 Public Utilities Commission on the solar financing
24 models.
25 We have also worked with the City of L.A. and
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1 we have been somewhat dormant and submitted testimony
2 to EPA on the 1997 ozone rules that has been submitted
3 to the South Coast District staff recently.
4 Of our proposed total immediate solar
5 conversion program within the next 20 years, as it
6 relates to ZEV and the mandate, we would like to
7 suggest that the points or credits that are used for
8 ZEVs can go either one of two ways.
9 You can say instead of one point for a
10 qualifying ZEV, it becomes half a point, and if it is a
11 ZEV, it has to have no emissions.
12 So, you should have solar photo cell tax on
13 your roof that would be providing your energy from
14 completely clean solar energy, direct use or offsite in
15 terms of a windmill or solar plant like the plants
16 which are cost-effective at about 10 cents a kilowatt
17 hour, and recently in a Sandia report, have cut their
18 own costs by half or a third.
19 There are other emerging technologies for
20 solar and electric. There is also solar hydrogen, and
21 I would like to refer to the article in Scientific
22 American, that Dr. Lloyd wrote on fuel cells, and solar
23 can be used through electrolysis to make hydrogen and
24 this is effective as well.
25 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: After you get through, we
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1 will take a half an hour.
2 MR. EDER: In the point system, the other
3 approach could be the incentive system of giving one
4 and a half points instead of starting and taking half a
5 point and adding it to a complete point.
6 If you have solar onsite or offsite for the
7 complete ZEV requirement, but you can't consider
8 something ZEV until it is not just a gold standard, it
9 is the double gold standard, the solar standard.
10 Now is the time to think about it.
11 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you. Thanks for
12 keeping the time.
13 Robert Fairchild, then we have Lisa Wurio.
14 MS. WURIO: My name is Lisa Wurio.
15 I'm here just as an ordinary citizen who is
16 just very concerned about our unhealthy air in our
17 State, and I do not have any detailed technical facts
18 and figures to give you.
19 My remarks are going to be very brief and very
20 general.
21 I read about this hearing in yesterday's
22 Sacramento Bee newspaper, and there is one figure in
23 particular that really jumped out at me and that said
24 that 95 percent of Californians live in areas that
25 don't meet Federal or State air quality standards.
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1 I read that. What does that translate into?
2 That translates into poor health for just about all of
3 us in the State.
4 It means many people are going to die sooner,
5 quite a bit sooner than they should. I was looking at
6 the human toll of this.
7 There was also another interesting figure in
8 the newspaper, and that is that 50 percent of the smog
9 forming pollutants in the State come from gas-powered
10 vehicles.
11 To me, it is obvious that in order to protect
12 our health, we need fewer of the gas-powered vehicles,
13 and we need to start replacing the vehicles with
14 vehicles that do not pollute.
15 So, I am here today to urge the Board to
16 uphold the mandate that is scheduled to go into effect
17 and do whatever possible to promote and encourage the
18 use and continual improvements of the no and low
19 emission vehicles.
20 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
21 We now have Rueben Willmarth, Dale Foster, and
22 Pete Price.
23 MR. WILLMARTH: Good Morning. My name is
24 Rueben Willmarth.
25 I'm an engineer here in Sacramento. I wanted
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1 to tell you about my experience recently.
2 About a year ago, when I lived in Southern
3 California, I had just graduated college, and with lots
4 of student loans to pay back, a new electric car was
5 just not an option for me.
6 So, my '79 Volkswagen Diesel would just have
7 to last a little bit longer. I now have a biohazard
8 sticker for it though. So, I decided to rent one
9 instead since I heard that was available.
10 I got an EV 1 Generation 1 car at Los Angeles
11 airport. For the next two days, I had the most fun
12 driving this car around.
13 It was by far the most fun car I had seen or
14 driven, and I showed it to my friends who thought it
15 was cool as well.
16 I had no home charger, so I planned carefully.
17 I was able to do so with little down time. Based on my
18 experience, this EV with only 50 miles range would be a
19 very practical car for most purposes, and if there were
20 public quick chargers available, it would have been
21 completely so.
22 Or if it had a small generator booster as AC
23 propulsion has, or even a parallel hybrid like the
24 Suburban we saw, or the Volvo they talked about
25 earlier.
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1 Therefore, it would be a car that I could use
2 and even my wife. Probably it would work well for Mr.
3 Burke there with his lifestyle.
4 I wanted to say that this can be done with
5 existing technology and at reasonable prices, and it
6 can be done now, because all these exist.
7 So, please, help me retire my Rabbit and get a
8 better car.
9 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: One of our staff would like
10 to retire the Rabbit as well. Maybe you could help
11 them.
12 Dale Foster, Pete Price.
13 MR. FOSTER: Good morning. My name is Dale
14 Foster.
15 I'm with Aerovironment.
16 I am the Project Manager of our Posi-charge,
17 which is a 60-kilowatt fast charging infrastructure
18 piece of equipment.
19 Aerovironment's had a long history in this
20 industry, and we continue to support it with products,
21 infrastructure products and test equipment for a
22 variety of mobile and stationary development works.
23 I am here today to say that fast charging does
24 work. It does greatly expand the daily range of
25 electric vehicles.
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1 The Xpress Shuttle in Los Angeles I think is
2 our best example of that where they are routinely
3 getting 200 miles a day in a real world application.
4 Some tests of that have gotten over 350 miles
5 in a 10-hour period on real freeway applications.
6 We also charge buses. Just as a rule of
7 thumb. Our charge rate on this is about two percent
8 per minute of the battery's state of charge.
9 To get 50 percent state of charge increase in
10 the battery pack, it is 25 minutes roughly on these
11 recharging times.
12 We also would like to say that fast charging
13 works with a variety of chemistries, and it does not
14 harm the batteries when done properly.
15 That is not difficult to do. It principally
16 involves watching the thermal management that you don't
17 get the batteries too hot, and that helps to monitor
18 the conditions that can in itself extend the lifetime
19 of the batteries.
20 I encourage you to stay the course. As one of
21 my customers in the business with major automakers
22 said, if electric vehicles have a future, fast charging
23 will be there.
24 I would like to echo Enid Joffe's comments
25 about, don't let this industry atrophy. We think it is
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1 better to have a smaller number of EVs out there sooner
2 rather than a larger number at a later time in 2003.
3 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you.
4 I would like to acknowledge the continued work
5 of Aeroenvironment. We heard way back on the work of
6 the EMPAC when they had the likes of Alec and others.
7 And again, the work that you are doing on the efforts
8 of Paul McCreedy is great.
9 So please, convey to Paul my appreciation for
10 you coming and the continued great work.
11 Pete Price, and then we have a new one David
12 Miller.
13 Pete Price is not here.
14 David Miller?
15 Okay.
16 We saw your request for 5 to 10 minutes. It
17 is discounted to three.
18 MR. MILLER: That is good.
19 For the record, I'm David Miller, I'm Vice
20 President of marketing for a recycling company called
21 Toxico. We are the only recycler of lithium batteries,
22 I should clarify that, we are the only company in the
23 world to recover lithium compounds from lithium
24 batteries.
25 I'm here today both representing Toxico and
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1 one of our parent companies, Consperspy Brothers, who
2 recycles nickel-metal hydride, lead acid, as well as
3 many others.
4 I've heard a lot of talk about the chargers,
5 about the vehicles, about the battery technologies, but
6 I have not heard a lot of information about the end
7 item recycling of the batteries or the vehicles.
8 I would like to say that we are definitely in
9 support of the ZEV mandate and the recycling
10 capabilities are there.
11 Additional information, www.toxico.com,
12 questions, comments, shipping requirements, anything to
13 do with recycling the batteries.
14 Also, www.comspersky.com.
15 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Is staff aware of the company
16 and capability?
17 MR. MILLER: We are an international company,
18 we do business in several countries.
19 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Make sure that staff is aware
20 of that.
21 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: We were discussing
22 yesterday the value of a salvage battery, how much is a
23 battery package worth?
24 MR. MILLER: It is like any other salvage
25 operation.
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1 The final product in lithium batteries, for
2 example, would be a lithium carbonate, which is sold on
3 the market.
4 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: If Joe Blow walks in off
5 the street and has a battery pack from an EV vehicle,
6 how much would you give him?
7 MR. MILLER: That is hard to say.
8 We do not have the infrastructure set up
9 neighborhood to neighborhood, so, shipping would be
10 involved.
11 Let me try to answer the question. The nickel
12 based batteries are driven by the nickel market, just
13 like the lead.
14 It costs you money when you take your nickel
15 lead battery in to drop it off, it cost you $1.00. The
16 gentleman who consolidates those batteries and ships
17 them in full loads, or breaks them down into the
18 materials, will make money.
19 That is about the best I can answer. Nickel
20 has a value. Lithium has a value.
21 The lithium batteries now contain cobalt, very
22 valuable. The amounts vary with battery manufacturers,
23 which is why I can't tell you that.
24 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: I see Peter turned up just in
25 time.
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1 MR. PRICE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 I apologize for stepping out at just the wrong
3 moment.
4 My name is Pete Price, with the California
5 League and Conservation Voters. The League regularly
6 does Statewide polling on environmental issues
7 generally, and also more in-depth surveys on specific
8 issues, and last year, our pollster, Paul Mazlin, of
9 Fairbank, conducted a public opinion survey to
10 determine the level of public concern about air quality
11 and if they think that the ZEV rule is the right
12 approach to improve air quality.
13 I would like to briefly share the results.
14 First of all, 70 percent of the respondents
15 are concerned about California's growing population
16 will have a major impact on air quality, and this
17 result correlates closely with the polling that the
18 League has done year after year, which shows year end
19 and year out, that air quality and water quality are
20 the major concerns of the California public, and that
21 level of concern is very strong across age, sex,
22 ethnicity, economic status, and political affiliation.
23 The public overwhelming supports the ZEV rule
24 by a 64 to percent margin, and 25 percent of that think
25 that four percent requirement of 20,000 vehicles is too
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1 low, and the largest group of the public think the
2 number is just about right.
3 When faced with two different propositions,
4 number one, the ZEV rule could be delayed because there
5 is no public demand for electric vehicles, or number
6 two, that we need to stick with the ZEV rule because it
7 has already been delayed once, and if we delay again,
8 it may never happen.
9 By a two to one margin, 58 percent of the
10 public agreed that the further delay will jeopardize
11 the chances of the public ever seeing ZEVs on the road.
12 The survey also showed that 58 percent
13 believed that cars that use gasoline will create
14 pollution, therefore we need to move to advanced
15 technologies and eventually away from gasoline all
16 together.
17 Only 30 percent believe that we can keep
18 making gasoline cars and improve air quality.
19 The ZEV program enjoyed a high level support
20 even after all the questions were asked, in fact on
21 both sides of the issue, support was consistent at 64
22 percent, and finally when asked if they have a
23 favorable or neutral or unfavorable opinion of an
24 electric official involved in weakening or delaying the
25 ZEV rule, 43 percent said they would have any
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1 unfavorable opinion, 32 were neutral, only 16 percent
2 were favorable to the action.
3 The final thing I want to say in this regard
4 is, this sampling of likely voters self-identified
5 themselves as 42 percent politically conservative, 31
6 percent moderate, and only 23 percent liberal.
7 We think this shows broad support for the rule
8 as it stands.
9 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you.
11 Dr. Chung Lui, and then Sandra Spelliscy.
12 DR. LU: Good morning.
13 My name is Chung-Lu, I am the Deputy Executive
14 Officer for Technology Advancement at the South Coast
15 Air Quality Management District.
16 We at the district feel honored to be here to
17 provide our experiences of EV, and I have to say in
18 support of ARB staff mandates and to work with ARB, we
19 have done a lot of projects together, including the TDM
20 project demonstrating OVM in vehicles, fuel cell
21 specifications, direct methanol fuel cell and battery
22 dominated, plug-in electric vehicles, a lot of projects
23 we have done together.
24 California ZEV program has triggered
25 scientific and engineering progress. In addition,
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1 public and private efforts have produced a host of
2 enabling technologies applicable to all future advanced
3 technology.
4 We need them not just for EV, any future power
5 train will take advantage of achievements derived so
6 far, but pressure needs to remain on vehicle and drive
7 train manufacturers to continue the progress of the
8 last decade.
9 Still remaining as challenges are the goals of
10 increased range, improved battery technology, price,
11 marketing and public education, you heard them all,
12 those are essential elements.
13 The prudent course at this course is to
14 maintain the ZEV mandate and sharpen California's focus
15 on the fuel cell and electric vehicle technology.
16 Governor Gray Davis has already shown
17 impressive leadership in this direction in creating the
18 Fuel Cell Partnership.
19 I have a few recommendations at this stage.
20 One, because the severity of the air quality in South
21 Coast and also our overwhelming emissions from mobile
22 sources, we would request the majority of the EVs be
23 deployed in our Basin.
24 Two, that we maintain ZEV mandates, promote
25 technology advancement in a battery hybrid, but we
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1 should sharpen our focus on fuel cells.
2 To that end, we really want you to consider to
3 place all fuel cell vehicles equivalent to ZEV, and
4 give them the cleaner use for fuel cells in the future.
5 Next, we require a significant number of fuel
6 cell power vehicles in the near future, and ramp-up the
7 numbers, and we also would ramp-up the 10 percent cap
8 in future years.
9 Lastly, continue to provide ZEV credits for
10 battery dominated EVs, and we recommend that you ask
11 staff to come back after the public process, to come
12 within 180 days, with a more concrete plan to implement
13 the recommendations.
14 The South Coast staff is ready to work with
15 your staff. We should involve all public parties,
16 manufacturers and public in this process.
17 We are ready to work.
18 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much, Chung.
19 We appreciate working with you and the efforts that you
20 have done to spread the technology to get it into
21 commercialization, and working with you on the Fuel
22 Cell Partnership.
23 We appreciate it. Thank you very much.
24 Last is Sandra Spelliscy.
25 MS. SPELLISCY: Good morning. I'm Sandra
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1 Spelliscy, with the Planning and Conservation League
2 and also a member of the California ZEV alliance.
3 Thank you so much for the opportunity to address you
4 this morning.
5 I want to take this chance to thank the staff
6 for all of their hard work that brought us to this
7 point in the review.
8 The central query of the staff report asks,
9 how do we create a sustainable program?
10 You heard a number of recommendations from my
11 colleagues, and I will not repeat those today, but I do
12 think that one thing does bear repeating, that's the
13 message that more than anything else we need to send a
14 clear, unqualified signal to the car companies that
15 ZEVs are here to stay in California, and we all must
16 join together to work to make the program a success.
17 I had planned to talk about the things that
18 the car companies had spoken about the last couple
19 days, and some of the other technical issues, but my
20 sense is that you have heard more than enough of that.
21 I will throw the notes away and talk about my
22 personal stake, because I have a personal stake in
23 this, as all of us do.
24 Forty years ago, I was a child growing up in
25 Southern California. In those days, the hot days of
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1 early September, not just the beginning of school, but
2 the stinging eyes and the searing lungs of the annual
3 smog season.
4 Now I'm raising my family in the Sacramento
5 Valley, and I find myself in the position as a mother,
6 knowing that every day my children are breathing air,
7 that the very air that they breathe is harmful to their
8 health.
9 I just want to send the message that all of us
10 already know, 40 years is too long to wait for clean
11 air.
12 The handwriting is on the wall. The message
13 is there loud enough and large enough and clear enough
14 for all of us to read.
15 That message is that we can continue to
16 regulate nail polish and gas cans, and try to prop up
17 smog check and reformulate our gasoline over and over
18 again, and all the things that you have done for 30
19 years, but we know in our hearts that we will never
20 have clean air in California until we embrace a
21 technological future that gives us pollution-free cars.
22 We know that.
23 The last two days have told you that the
24 technology is here today. The will of the people is
25 behind it. The will of the people is behind you.
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1 Our economy is robust. There has never been a
2 better time to craft far-reaching and world changing
3 public policy.
4 Do not be mistaken, what you do today and what
5 you do in the next few months can change our world for
6 the better.
7 Stand firm on the mandate. Do not retreat.
8 Embrace that new technological future, and give my
9 children and all of the children in California the
10 clean and healthy air that they deserve.
11 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Kenny?
13 MR. KENNY: Nothing further.
14 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: I think I would like to make
15 a few comments here before I call on each of my
16 colleagues to share their perspective on this important
17 issue.
18 First of all, I would like say that I
19 appreciate the tremendous two days of testimony that we
20 have had here.
21 It is thoughtful and informative, and I
22 recognize that a lot of work has gone into this, and
23 the testimony from all segments.
24 We have a lot to study there. Staff has got
25 to look at this as well.
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1 I can't express my heartfelt thanks from
2 myself and all of my colleagues for all that honest
3 work.
4 Also, I appreciate the spirit of dialogue that
5 we have had here. It is very important.
6 I thank you all for participating, those of
7 you that have taken time on the industry side and those
8 on the private sector, taking the time off.
9 I would like to share a few reflections of my
10 own perspective. I think we've heard many points of
11 view yesterday and this morning.
12 One thing, however, is clear to me, our future
13 depends on continuing our march toward zero emission
14 Vehicles. We need to stay the course.
15 That is what the People of California expect
16 and want. I think this is an example of what we see
17 here, and that is on behalf of our children and their
18 children's children.
19 I think that is what we know as a Board here
20 we must do to meet the goals, environmental, energy,
21 fuel diversity and societal goals.
22 The comments that you heard from our sister
23 agencies demonstrated that part of it.
24 I think the other thing that came out of this
25 for me, also, we are all concerned, we need to remove
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1 the uncertainties.
2 We recognize in the private and business
3 sector the impediment to progress is uncertainty.
4 I think in my views the reasons are even
5 stronger today than in 1990 to press ahead with our
6 zero emission vision.
7 When I became Chairman of the Board, I
8 espoused a vision here of driving toward zero emissions
9 for all segments here.
10 I think this is perfectly in keeping with that
11 and the transition that we are looking for, as I said
12 earlier, from internal combustion engines to an
13 electrical engine here is certainly not going to occur
14 overnight, so we are looking at this as a long-term
15 program.
16 Thankfully, in our drive here, we have the
17 tools to make that vision a practical reality. As we
18 have seen today and yesterday, leadership does not come
19 without a cost, and there are many challenges ahead,
20 but it costs us more to abandon what we started.
21 We heard that several times here, nd stick
22 with what we've got, and all segments have talked about
23 that issue.
24 The investments in zero emission technology
25 will dramatically decrease or stop altogether without a
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1 clear signal.
2 In fact, we have already experienced a
3 blackout of ZEV production. We need to work ourselves
4 out of the situation as quickly as possible.
5 I think the single element of a successful
6 program is the cars themselves. Witness after witness
7 told us, we love them.
8 That is a tremendous vote of confidence, and
9 the automakers can justifiably be proud of what they
10 have accomplished, and we all applaud them.
11 I see the benefits of we are today compared to
12 where we were several years ago. We have these
13 vehicles out on the road.
14 Right across the board the auto manufacturers
15 have done a tremendous job. So, those are clear to me
16 that as we move ahead we can not do this alone.
17 We heard that with the auto manufacturers we
18 need to work and need to partnership with the auto
19 industry that brought us this far so that we can reach
20 the finish line together.
21 That means that we need to address per vehicle
22 cost and do what we can on the government side to
23 mitigate the cost gap in the early transitional years.
24 California and 40 other states provide
25 financial incentives for electric vehicles, that is
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1 already happening.
2 There is a bill on the Governor's desk, AB
3 2061, by the Assemblyman of Long Beach, that would
4 increase ZEV subsidies in the near term, up to $9,000
5 per vehicle over three years.
6 Government can also help on the demand side by
7 doing everything to educate the public about these
8 technologies.
9 Education of new technologies under
10 implementation is a recurring critical issue, we heard
11 that time and again.
12 We are fortunate that we have a wonderful
13 university system. We have wonderful environmental
14 groups in the State that can help work with the
15 industry and ourselves and government to remedy that
16 issue.
17 Earlier, also this year, ARB put up a website,
18 www.zev.info. I believe we can do much more to get the
19 public exposed to and knowledgable about this
20 technology.
21 We can also foster dialogue and information
22 exchange between local communities about how they can
23 prepare themselves for ZEV future.
24 Like the City of Vacaville and Contra Costa
25 County have done already.
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1 Supervisor DeSaulnier has been a leader in his
2 community, so his own fights there on some other
3 issues, helping to establish the mentality that ZEVs
4 can work in local government fleets.
5 In fact, I have asked Marc to help this Board
6 figure out how we can extend Contra Costa's efforts
7 throughout the State and how we can integrate that sort
8 of thinking with the Governor's Transportation Plan.
9 We have seen the growth, the congestion, we
10 heard time and again from the Bay Area and from the
11 South Coast, congestion and growth have been major
12 issues as we look forward to the next 20 or 30 years.
13 The Governor started to address that in his
14 Vision in the Transportation Plan.
15 I think, Marc, with his experience in smart
16 growth, and he has also been a student in
17 transportation, and when he visited Europe last year to
18 study their transportation to see what we could learn
19 here.
20 I've asked Marc to do that, and I think he
21 will accept that challenge. I can think of no one
22 better with the expertise and his demeanor and
23 knowledge, I think it is a wonderful thing.
24 With that, I would like to call on him now to
25 lead off the Board Member comments as we bring this to
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1 a close, and then after Mark has spoken, from the end
2 there to each get an opportunity to speak.
3 The one exception may be Dr. Friedman, who has
4 to leave by 12:30, so if we don't get to him by 12:30,
5 my colleagues will extend him the courtesy of his
6 chance to speak.
7 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: I heard a quote not
8 long ago that I will try to live by.
9 I will be like Elizabeth Taylor said to her
10 husbands, I won't keep you long.
11 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Henry the Eighth,
12 to his wife.
13 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: I do not remember
14 Henry the Eighth, Dr. Friedman, but I do remember
15 Elizabeth Taylor.
16 I would like to thank the Chairman for showing
17 that confidence in me individually.
18 I also would like to say that as someone who
19 was once described in a Bay Area newspaper as a policy
20 wonk, I really appreciate the last few days.
21 I have appreciated the way that the Chair has
22 run the meeting and in his absence, Dr. Friedman. I
23 commented in the back that I don't think I would want
24 to attend one of Dr. Friedman's classes.
25 You couldn't get me to shut up that easily.
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1 Seriously, I think the Board has done a wonder
2 job. I think staff has done a really thoughtful job in
3 this process.
4 The history of this organization, we have
5 continued that through this exercise, and I think for
6 the people that showed up, there has been a limited
7 amount of the tone that I think is not productive to
8 these kinds of hearings, but I think of it has been
9 very constructive.
10 For somebody who, for most of my adult life,
11 has been a small business owner, I am certainly
12 sympathetic and want to try to appreciate the concerns
13 of the manufacturers.
14 For those of us who visited Torrance just a
15 few weeks ago to speak with the Japanese manufacturers,
16 I think all of us realize the difficulties that they
17 see with this mandate.
18 For Sam Leonard and Kelly, I think we hear
19 what you're saying, but for me personally, I
20 respectfully disagree.
21 Along with Allan, I think it is really
22 important that this Board send a very clear, concise,
23 strong message that the mandate is going to stay, that
24 this is for the future, that we have tried to be a
25 partner in trying to make it work, and I think we have
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1 to first establish that it is going to take place and
2 that we have a responsibility to make it work.
3 If my charge is to help see that that's done,
4 that's what I would like to do.
5 I think that the staff's comments about the
6 multi-media effects of this mandate is even broader in
7 my experience than the staff has gone about.
8 As Allan said, as all of us in local
9 government, we have to deal with land use and how
10 things are changing in people's lives, and
11 transportation and regional issues, I'll just say for
12 the Bay Area, as a member of the Metropolitan
13 Transportation Commission, where our Regional
14 Transportation Improvement Plan for the next 20 years
15 has $88-billion already spoken for, and almost all of
16 that is just for maintenance and for transit
17 improvements.
18 It's not for capacity improvements.
19 With a million more people coming into the Bay
20 Area, with the kind of growth the Chairman started this
21 hearing with for the State and indeed this country and
22 the globe, we can't possibly continue to build the
23 infrastructure that historically been California's
24 legacy in terms of the capacity.
25 We won't have the capacity for single
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1 occupancy vehicles. So, we have to look at a fleet, I
2 think, that is more diverse and gets away from fossil
3 fuels, even if this is a first step that is very
4 slight.
5 So, I think it's important that we do that.
6 I would be very supportive of a motion when
7 the time comes that includes going ahead with the
8 mandate, but also asks staff to come back and work with
9 the auto manufacturers, particularly around the issue
10 of costs, the differences we've heard.
11 I think it is important that we start to
12 create a market, but we have to deal with costs, and
13 there is a real concern there.
14 I have some concerns around the rest of the
15 fleet. I hope whatever we do we take careful
16 consideration of the consequences of the rest of the
17 fleet as that comes about.
18 I have some interest specifically in things
19 like plug-in hybrids. I think other colleagues may
20 have an interest in that as well, to look at those.
21 Also, as we have heard some of the discussions
22 with the manufacturers, does the 10 percent mandate
23 have to apply to each of the manufacturers
24 individually?
25 We have heard that Ford in particular seems to
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1 have a desire to enter to enter this field, seems to be
2 ready to do it.
3 This is not meant in any way as a backing-off
4 of the mandate, but Mr. Cackette, and Mr. Kenny, I
5 think are talented people at looking at and making the
6 mandate be a real mandate, but how can we do it so that
7 it is practical and in 2003 it will be successful.
8 Lastly, I would like to quote a book that I
9 read this weekend that we all talked about last night,
10 and it starts, it's from GM's Jack Smith, he said this
11 on January 4, 1996, when the EV-1 was introduced.
12 He said, it's time to get electric vehicles
13 out of the lab, into the showroom and onto the road.
14 I couldn't agree with him more.
15 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much.
17 Mr. McKinnon.
18 BOARD MEMBER McKINNON: A couple of tough,
19 tough acts to follow, probably the most qualified Chair
20 anywhere to Chair this mission, tough act to follow the
21 Supervisor.
22 I guess for me, the starting point is to tell
23 you how much I appreciate everybody's role in this
24 process. This process has gone for ten years, really.
25 I think that people organized. Look at this
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1 mail.
2 People stepped out and talked to the People of
3 California. That is important.
4 I think Board staff held hearings so that the
5 People in California were involved. I do not tend to
6 villanizing the auto companies, because I think the
7 auto companies have spent a lot of time and money in
8 this process.
9 I may not have marketed it the same way, and
10 frankly, I have some concerns about the later years on
11 the availability of vehicles, but the auto companies
12 did a great deal to get us to where we are.
13 I think little is served by villanization.
14 I want to be really, really, really clear that
15 I think that the mandate needs to continue.
16 This is about my child and his children and
17 the future and the kind of population growth that we
18 are going to have in this State.
19 I, too, spent much of my life, most of my
20 life, in Southern California, and I remember the
21 billowing clouds of smog on the 5 and 405 as a kid. I
22 remember that, driving through it.
23 So, everybody has done a great deal to move us
24 forward from where we were, and I don't think it's time
25 to stop.
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1 I think there may be some work that we can do
2 around the edges. There may be some things that we can
3 do to make sure that the mandate continues relevant to
4 what we know now rather than ten years ago.
5 I think that we need to do some serious
6 thinking about plug-in hybrids. I think there is a
7 real attraction to the idea that you can buy one
8 vehicle that plugs in and gets the commute done all
9 week, but that is not impossible to use for other
10 applications.
11 I think we buy lots of vehicles, such as
12 four-wheel drives that do that kind of thing. That is
13 something that we need to do some thinking about in how
14 we deal with it.
15 I also have some concern that we are fair to
16 those manufacturers that have put together a plan to
17 comply with the mandate.
18 In other words, I don't think that we should
19 tweak it so much that those that were willing to play
20 by the rules should be negatively affected by it.
21 I think there is quite a bit of room for
22 discussion there, but I think that should be one of our
23 limits.
24 Finally, I also have some concern that we not
25 do anything that sets us up in a position that
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1 incentivizes city cars to the extent that that is all
2 that anybody does.
3 I think we want to try to make sure that there
4 is a broad range of vehicles available. Some of that
5 broad range my also include hybrids and the plug-in
6 hybrids.
7 I think that is how we get to the market. I
8 think that with kind of all of the broad range, you
9 begin to get the numbers where we can deal with
10 economies of scale in battery manufacturing, you get to
11 more consumers in more different ways where people
12 begin to get the choice of electric as a choice.
13 Clearly, I think that the Board also has a
14 role in helping with an education campaign, and I think
15 that is something that we need to help make happen.
16 It may also mean sponsoring forums for local
17 government, although I tell you, when local government
18 comes to testify, time and time again, they've already
19 met the mandate.
20 I keep looking at that. Local government has
21 done a very good job and probably has one of the more
22 honest voices here to step up to the plate and say, we
23 think it is a good thing, because they have done what
24 we think they should do.
25 With that, I thank you very much. Clearly,
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1 this has been a great process, and we need to move
2 forward together to continue our progress.
3 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you, Mr. McKinnon.
4 I think Dr. Friedman is going to go next.
5 BOARD MEMBER FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Allan.
6 Because I fully subscribe to the comments of
7 both Marc and Matt, I'm not going to repeat any of the
8 same comments.
9 For me, this has been a very interesting
10 experience. I have read about 14 pounds worth of
11 paper, and I've listened carefully for two days, and
12 I've learned things some thing I never really needed to
13 learn, for example, how to create models based on
14 faulty premises, how to have marketing efforts which
15 would be the subject of a Joseph Heller Catch 22 second
16 novel, and because I'm a physician, and I take care of
17 kids, I have been very concerned about the notion
18 expressed by some that there would only be small,
19 incremental reductions in pollutants by the ZEV
20 program.
21 I have become convinced that all it takes
22 instead of a couple of tons per day, would be a 50 to
23 100 times more savings in pollutants with just a couple
24 of faulty PZEVs.
25 So, I don't buy that argument that there is
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1 not going to be an important health reduction in the
2 short-term and there can be no argument about the
3 health effects in the very long-term as our society
4 changes with respect to what kind of energy sources it
5 uses.
6 I have been impressed that a number of people,
7 but not too many people, have commented about health
8 effects, the Lung Association and some others, all with
9 the focus only on the short, acute effects of
10 pollution, like asthma, sudden death and this and that.
11 The bottomline is, the Air Board has supported
12 a major prospective study of children's health in the
13 State of California in, by exposure, the health
14 effects, if you will, due to exposure to pollutants.
15 Soon this study will be completed, but the
16 preliminary findings are so striking insofar as the
17 demonstration, particularly in the South Coast, that
18 what the air contains now actually reduces the growth
19 and the ultimate reserve capacity of children's lungs
20 by a finite amount.
21 That means that when you get older and you're
22 challenged, you do not have a reserve capacity. That
23 is such a remarkable phenomenon, I would be immensely
24 worried about that.
25 In many respects, that is going to be worse
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1 than an acute asthmatic episode, because what we all
2 will do, the older we get, and I am becoming an expert,
3 the older I get, is depend on our reserve capacity,
4 whether it be pulmonary or cardiovascular.
5 If that intrinsically limited by what we are
6 breathing, we are all in trouble. There is an absolute
7 mandate to stop this developmental problem that clearly
8 exists now on the basis of the only study that cannot
9 be denied, because it is a prospective longitudinal
10 study.
11 So, I'm convinced that we must do the right
12 thing and that we, in fact, must continue to subscribe
13 to this mandate.
14 I am in full accord with my colleagues who
15 have already expressed that we need staff to do for us
16 is to continue to focus and teach us what we -- we need
17 to do beyond just preserving the mandate.
18 Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much, Dr.
20 Friedman.
21 Ms. D'Adamo.
22 BOARD MEMBER D'ADAMO: Thank you, Mr.
23 Chairman.
24 I sit here and think of the last two days, and
25 of the many months in preparation for this hearing, and
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1 many times it has been brought up that we are at a
2 defining moment in California history, that we are at
3 cross-roads and creating a vision.
4 I personally think that the People of the
5 State of California, this very body, has already spoken
6 on this issue.
7 This vision is not being created today. It
8 was created over a decade ago.
9 For me, personally, it is all about
10 accountability. It is about accountability to the
11 public.
12 It is about accountability to the consumer
13 investment that has already occurred. It's about
14 accountability to the municipalities that have already
15 stepped up to the plate and invested millions of
16 dollars in public infrastructure.
17 It is also about accountability to the
18 automakers. It's about what this Board can do to
19 somehow harmonize the market with the vision that has
20 already been created.
21 I, too, agree with my colleagues that staff
22 has shown a tremendous ability to be creative.
23 I think that all stakeholders in this process
24 have that ability to be creative, the consumers, the
25 environmental and automakers, and I have all of my
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1 faith that staff can work with these groups on creative
2 ways to provide for incentives to harmonize the market
3 with the mandate.
4 Some of the issues already raised, early
5 introduction, grid electric hybrids, also
6 standardization of charging stations, fast charge,
7 somehow providing for incentives for vehicles actually
8 sold and leased, incentives for market-related efforts,
9 and of course, incentives that we have a full range of
10 models, including four to five passenger cars.
11 Getting back to the accountability to the
12 automakers, a group of us went to Detroit a couple of
13 months ago, and a group of us went to Southern
14 California a few weeks ago, and I know that there have
15 been other groups of Board Members that have made these
16 visits.
17 We hear you loudly and clearly. This is going
18 to be tough.
19 You want to make a business case of it, and
20 you don't see that you can do that now. I think that
21 we have a responsibility in that process to help you
22 get there so that you too can see this vision.
23 There has been a lot of talk of numbers of
24 what this is going to cost. The automakers have a
25 different view point than some of the other groups.
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1 I think that we have a responsibility that,
2 once again, sit down with the automakers, sit down with
3 AC Propulsion and some of the other groups that have a
4 different way of looking at this, and I for one could
5 really benefit from an analysis that accounts for what
6 is going to happen when we have increased volume?
7 We are talking about a very small number right
8 now, hardly none at all. What is going to happen in
9 the out years?
10 What's going to happen when other states, such
11 as New York and Massachusetts take on their own
12 program?
13 What does the vehicle mix, the wide range of
14 the vehicle mix, some autos are going to be more costly
15 than others, what does that do to the cost equation?
16 We had some good testimony from AC Propulsion
17 and from the gentleman from Ovonics about design
18 simplicity, and there was a previous example that AC
19 Propulsion raised that if they can build it for less
20 than $20,000, there is something missing here in the
21 equation here as to why electric vehicles are so much
22 more.
23 I could really benefit from staff looking at
24 some of those issues.
25 What happens to the cost equation when we look
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1 at subsidies?
2 Speaking of accountability, we have
3 responsibility as the Board does, government does to
4 engage in and continue the subsidy programs, and what
5 does that do to the cost issue?
6 What does regulatory certainty do to the cost
7 issue?
8 Additionally, we need to look at the -- not
9 just the cost of the implementation of this regulation,
10 but the benefits, the benefits to society, the benefits
11 to, the health benefits, the risk reduction.
12 I think the Union of Concerned Scientists had
13 some very interesting numbers.
14 I think that if staff could somehow account
15 for those as part of the cost of this, but not -- the
16 benefit as well, that would be helpful for us.
17 We also talked about the operational savings.
18 You don't have to go through Smog Check, you don't have
19 to have oil changes, you don't have to purchase
20 gasoline, reduction in maintenance, so I think all of
21 these issues, if they could somehow be merged into one
22 report that staff could come back to us on, I think
23 that would help us in our role to better serve the
24 public and be accountable with this vision that was
25 created long ago, and so that we can continue this
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1 vision.
2 Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you very much Dee Dee.
4 Professor Friedman.
5 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Well, first, I
6 fully share Chairman Lloyd's observations and opinions
7 that he expressed at the outset, his reflection, and I
8 share my other colleagues remarks as well.
9 I particularly want to join in and endorse
10 warmly their expressions of appreciation to all who
11 participated in a very informative presentation and
12 hearings.
13 I am grateful for the information. I am
14 grateful for the sincerity, and I'm grateful for the
15 level of the presentations.
16 For me, the mandate, as I read about it, at
17 its inception was all about clean air. I don't think
18 that has changed.
19 To me, it was about clean air when it was
20 adopted, and it should still be about clean air.
21 Clean air to me is zero emission air. It is
22 not partial emission or something else.
23 As Dr. Bill said, and we all know, it is for
24 our own selfish interests as human kind, along with
25 other creatures of this earth who have to breathe this
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1 air.
2 There is no question that there is nothing but
3 truly zero emission area to be truly clean air.
4 The auto manufacturers, if I heard them
5 correctly, claim that the immediate benefits and
6 reductions in emissions would be quite small. As a
7 matter of fact, there was the suggestion that was, as
8 some of my colleagues have already described, as based
9 on flawed premises, that by producing zero emission
10 vehicles, we would be somehow increasing the pollution
11 in the air.
12 To the extend that is true, we really are
13 wrong handed. But to me, their claim that the benefits
14 would be small, if any, I think Dr. Bill, and Dr.
15 Friedman, has clearly negated.
16 There is no such thing as small reduction to
17 me. If we are looking at not just the immediate
18 benefits but the long-range benefits, I think that they
19 have been well-established of benefits flowing from
20 this mandate.
21 The Zero Emission Vehicle mandate, I believe,
22 in large measure, can claim credit for stimulating the
23 introduction of not just the battery electric vehicle,
24 but also the various hybrid electric and other fuel
25 cell technologies of the future, superior internal
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1 combustion engines who have had to compete as we've
2 ratcheted the aspirations up.
3 I think that the existing mandate is going to
4 be responsible for showing continued progress, which we
5 all are counting on.
6 So, zero emission for me is a no brainer.
7 It is a continued goal, a societal goal that
8 is important, is crucial, and I join those thus far who
9 have said, we should stay the course, we should stay on
10 the journey started 10 years ago, as we drive to zero
11 emissions in 2003 and beyond, and that is a small
12 percentage at that, but under the rules as they stand,
13 that would increase.
14 Given that I share the view that we should
15 stay in the same direction, I do recognize, as you
16 pointed out, Ms. D'Adamo, based on the testimony these
17 last few days and what I have read, I think we have a
18 responsibility to do our utmost to assure that the cost
19 issue is addressed with all of our creative thinking,
20 and that ties in, of course, to availability,
21 marketing, sales, and the like.
22 I think we need to do what we can, through our
23 staff, particularly, of experts, to see what we can do
24 as a Board, as Cal EPA, as a State, as all segments of
25 society that are interested in this, environmental
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1 community, enthusiasts and so forth, to see what we can
2 do to search out every way of facilitating, using bully
3 pulpit, traditional rules, whatever means are
4 legitimate to facilitate immediate or resumption of the
5 electric vehicle to give it the old American test and
6 try.
7 I have had the nagging feeling since I have
8 come to this table that we really have not seen a full
9 out, full blown, good old American effort.
10 We haven't given it our best shot. There are
11 these nagging doubts about marketing and un
12 availability and not willingness to sell and comments
13 from manufacturers that they really do not want to
14 create a demand for a vehicle that they don't want to
15 build, because they do not see a business case, and so
16 forth.
17 I think we have a responsibility to ask
18 ourselves and request what staff can do in dialogue
19 with the manufacturers to come up with creative ideas.
20 How we can facilitate the marketing and public
21 education, the ramping up in terms of availability in
22 the year 2000 and beyond.
23 I hope that we can agree to do that today and
24 ask staff to do that today.
25 I think that pretty much covers my views.
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1 There are a lot of other sub issues, not less important
2 but subordinate in a sense to the bigger picture that
3 we are trying by consensus do today, issues that some
4 of you have mentioned, how we facilitate the cost issue
5 by the, the cost to the consumers there is a premium
6 passed on to them by recouping by reselling energy.
7 These are very creative ideas and worthy of
8 exploration.
9 With that, I look forward to the remaining
10 comments of my colleagues, and I thank you all for
11 teaching me so much.
12 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you, Professor
13 Friedman.
14 Ms. Riordan.
15 BOARD MEMBER RIORDAN: Thank you, Mr.
16 Chairman.
17 I too was very much educated and appreciated
18 the comments and information that flowed to us in the
19 last two days, and I'm very comfortable with staying
20 the course, far more comfortable, perhaps, than I was
21 perhaps as I heard this item two years ago.
22 I have great faith in what can be done in a
23 cooperative effort, that is what it will take to make
24 it succeed, but that cooperative effort is doable and
25 can be very successful as we look forward to 2003.
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1 I do think, and the staff is clearly aware as
2 my colleagues so well stated, there is much that I am
3 sure that you picked up on from some of the testimony,
4 and we need to explore some of those ideas a little
5 further that can help us become even more successful
6 with the ZEV mandate.
7 There were clearly ideas that were new to me,
8 and may not be new to you, but I thought were
9 excellent, and we can pursue that at another time in
10 more detail.
11 I do think it is clear to me that there is a
12 lot of interest in people throughout California,
13 throughout the United States and probably the world in
14 terms of how successful this program is.
15 It is incumbent upon us to make the program
16 work, and we know it will success as we move forward.
17 Mr. Chairman, you put it well in your remarks,
18 and I'm deeply committed to the ZEV mandate as it is
19 before us.
20 Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you, Ms. Riordan.
22 Dr. Burke.
23 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: I think I talked enough
24 to last through the next ZEV mandate.
25 I will make this very brief. I am only second
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1 to McKinnon, but you know, the one thing that I think
2 is absolute true that we did take the Professor
3 Friedman class these last couple of day, and I enjoyed
4 it very much, I hope that I do not fail, because that
5 is --
6 As briefly as I can state it, I represent the
7 South Coast Air Quality Management District that
8 represents 45 percent of all of the automobiles in the
9 State of California.
10 That is staggering to the imagination when you
11 stop to think about that, that little tiny geographic
12 area, and in one hand I describe it as 5,000 square
13 miles, but on the other hand it only represents four
14 counties in the greatest State in the Union, and when
15 Dr. Friedman, who isn't from that district, talks about
16 the children who are affected by the emissions of those
17 vehicles, I face it every day, every single day of my
18 life.
19 When Mr. McKinnon talked about the outreach
20 program that ARB has initiated and was very successful
21 in this, for the last seven years, we at South Coast
22 have had outreach programs and, believe me, I have been
23 to places that I did not know were in California.
24 I have seen children and adults who are
25 victims of emissions from vehicles.
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1 Depending on what chemical you are talking
2 about, between 70 and 90 percent of our emissions in
3 the South Coast District are caused by these
4 automobiles.
5 It is clear that California must maintain the
6 ZEV mandate.
7 What I would like to ask the Chairman to ask
8 the staff to do, is to see if they couldn't work, as
9 Mr. Lui, Dr. Lui indicated, work with staff to see if
10 there is not some immediate relief that we could do on
11 a pilot project basis in South Coast.
12 We are not asking for special treatment. We
13 understand this is a statewide Board. This is a
14 statewide issue.
15 We are the one's who are getting the brunt of
16 it. Because of that, we would like to sit down and
17 talk and see if there is something that we can figure
18 out to give us some short-term, while some of the
19 others things are clicking in, can of relief.
20 I would like to thank you, Mr. Chairman. As
21 the newest member of the Board, I was out there on this
22 one.
23 I was running around, and I talked to my staff
24 assistant had me booked with so many people that at the
25 end, I was screaming, no more, not one more, but then
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1 she said, but these people want to give you this side
2 or that, and I just could not say no.
3 Through your patience and the patience of some
4 of the staff who I have needled more than I should,
5 maybe, or as much as I should, maybe, I would like to
6 say thank you.
7 When I asked about the mail, it was very
8 important to me that the South Coast people be aware of
9 this, and what I was really impressed when the people
10 got up to testify, the number of people from Southern
11 California, who came all this way, to spend their own
12 time and own money to tell us that it is okay, they
13 want to go ahead.
14 I would like to say to the auto manufacturers,
15 I'm a small business guy. I understand profit and
16 loss.
17 If somebody came in and mandated something
18 that made me lose money, I would be off-the-chart
19 upset.
20 But when Professor Friedman talked about
21 societal responsibility, that is not in the business
22 plan. It is part of a person's or corporation's
23 responsibility.
24 I don't think that there is anybody at the ARB
25 that wants you to spend one dollar more than necessary
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1 to reach the goals.
2 So, I would like the Chairman to consider that
3 if, when we go out and reach to companies and talk
4 about the things that my other colleagues suggested we
5 talk to the auto manufacturers about, that we also see
6 if they have any more suggestions about a more
7 cost-efficient manner to reach our zero emissions
8 mandate.
9 I would like to say thank you for coming and
10 helping us here make this important decision.
11 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you, Dr. Burke.
12 Mr. Calhoun.
13 BOARD MEMBER CALHOUN: Thank you, Mr.
14 Chairman.
15 I would like to thank the general public and
16 staff for their input. I share the comments and points
17 of view by the Board Members.
18 I have to confess when the mandate first was
19 adopted, I was not a big fan of it.
20 But having said that, I recognize that a lot
21 of work, a lot of good work has been done and a lot has
22 been accomplished in the last ten years.
23 I am not one to support throwing that away.
24 There are some problems with the current
25 regulation as it exists that could be fixed, and I
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1 think that manufacturers will probably surprise all of
2 us.
3 I have a lot of faith in the automobile
4 industry, and I think they will step up to the task.
5 I understand that they are running a business
6 and don't like the idea of losing money, so we have to
7 take that into consideration.
8 We've talked about the market and whether or
9 not there is a market for these vehicles.
10 I think there is som uncertainty in my mind.
11 I think there is some uncertainty in the staff's mind,
12 but I don't see us abandoning our efforts to move ahead
13 because of that.
14 I think technology will advance as we move
15 ahead with the program.
16 I guess I'm a little fascinated -- I talked to
17 our staff earlier and said that we took a big step when
18 we went to pure electric or pure ZEV, and my few was
19 that we should have taken an interim step, and
20 nevertheless, that is kind of where we are anyway.
21 So, we are moving to ZEV, and I think we have
22 to make it work. I don't think there is any question
23 about that.
24 I think it has to work, and it is going to
25 require cooperative efforts on the part of staff, and
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1 it's going to require a cooperative effort with the
2 auto manufacturers, but there are some changes that are
3 going to be needed.
4 Some of them have been cited already. I want
5 to suggest a couple of things.
6 Mr. Leonard mentioned yesterday, and I pursued
7 it with him, that for our part, industry commits to
8 providing the same or better quality benefits as the
9 ZEV mandate would have produced, and as, GM, we commit
10 to continuing our pursuit of ATVs and improved fuels,
11 as demonstrated.
12 I would like to see the staff examine whatever
13 their proposal is, and we've heard from AC Propulsion,
14 some suggestions, one of which would allow some
15 manufacturers to opt out of the program by paying into
16 a special fund for research and development purposes,
17 and I would like to see that evaluated, and to the
18 extent that their suggestion, along with the other
19 suggestions, can be a compliment to what we are doing
20 and what the auto industry suggests, I would like to
21 see that taken into consideration.
22 I would like to have an objective, and I'll
23 underline, an objective evaluation of that proposal.
24 I, too, Mr. Chairman will repeat what I said
25 earlier, that a lot of progress has been made, and I am
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1 certainly in support of the work that has gone on.
2 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you, Joe.
3 Again, with your background, I think it gives
4 me some confidence here that we are certainly on the
5 right track with your background in the automotive
6 industry, and seeing the progress that you've just --
7 BOARD MEMBER CALHOUN: I think the automotive
8 industry will do all right.
9 I think that they, in reality, even though
10 they have some concerns, I can certainly understand
11 about losing money, but in the long run, I think they
12 will, as they usually do, be okay.
13 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you, Mr. Calhoun.
14 Supervisor Patrick.
15 BOARD MEMBER PATRICK: Thank you, Mr.
16 Chairman.
17 I would like to think that you saved the best
18 for last, but I will be brief.
19 BOARD MEMBER FRIEDMAN: Take your full three
20 minutes.
21 BOARD MEMBER PATRICK: Thank you.
22 Believe me, I've got a little timer going, and
23 I'd do that.
24 I, too, would like to thank the Chairman and
25 Professor Friedman for doing a great job of making sure
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1 that 75 or 80 people were heard and were able to
2 articulate to us their concerns or their praise for
3 this program.
4 I think it is one thing when folks who have
5 some kind of a financial stake come and give their
6 testimony.
7 I, too, like my colleagues, have been very
8 educated through that.
9 But I think when John Q. Public and Jane Q.
10 Public come and tell us their experiences, that take
11 time off work and come at their own expense and tell us
12 about how they feel about the electric vehicles that
13 they are driving, I think that is a fantastic testimony
14 to what I believe will be the success of this program.
15 I think that our Board, sounds as though all
16 of us, are fully committed to this mandate. I think
17 that is absolutely essential that we are.
18 I think there have been a few false steps, if
19 you will. I think the MOAs, rather than being the
20 ramp-up in production that we were looking for, ended
21 up to be something where a number was given, and that
22 was interpreted as being the sole commitment that they
23 had towards this.
24 There are unmet needs. In my county, Kern
25 County, we have had a year's time and frustration in
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1 which we have been trying to get electric vehicles to
2 add to our fleet.
3 I know that it's absolutely true that there
4 are unmet needs.
5 I believe that the strong message that's
6 delivered by this Board, by the staff, by the Governor
7 and all of his team here in Sacramento and throughout
8 the State, I think that this strong message is going to
9 advance the technology in this area, and I, too, have
10 tremendous confidence that the automobile manufacturers
11 are going to be able to meet this challenge and surpass
12 what we expect them to do today.
13 I do have some things that I think it is
14 important that staff formulate some kind of a
15 recommendation for us in the future.
16 One of them is about infrastructure, about how
17 important it is for standardization of the charging
18 facilities, and how are we going to meet the
19 infrastructure needs in the future when we have
20 thousands of these cars on the road.
21 I think that the gentlemen who talked about to
22 us a little bit about the SUVs and about whether or not
23 they should be included in the percentages, that each
24 manufacturer needs to come forward with -- I think that
25 this is something, maybe it's not doable in 2003 or
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1 2004 or 2005, but is it doable in the future that these
2 SUVs should be included in those percentages.
3 I think that one of the things that this Board
4 prides itself on the technological reviews that we have
5 in all of the facet of things that we mandate in
6 consumer products and automobiles and so forth.
7 We want to make sure that the technology is
8 there. So, we have these biennial reviews.
9 They serve a very important purpose.
10 In this particular case, what it did is it
11 gave the manufacturers the idea that perhaps there was
12 going to be a chink in the armor somewhere, and they
13 were not -- that they were going to get us to back down
14 from the mandate.
15 So, I think one of the things that we need to
16 respond to is, if the technology is here, and I believe
17 that it is, and it's certainly doable, do these
18 biennial reviews serve a strong purpose, or instead, do
19 they give a feeling of uncertainty to folks who are
20 trying to move the technology forward?
21 So, I would like some comment on that when we
22 deal with this issue again.
23 Lastly, I think it is very important that we
24 all work collectively to grow the market in this area.
25 This is not just the automobile manufacturers'
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1 responsibility to educate the public. It is our
2 collective responsibility to educate the public.
3 I believe that we can do that together and
4 make certain that there is a market there in the
5 future.
6 No business should be expected to have
7 tremendous losses because of the mandates that we put
8 forward.
9 Instead, we need to work together to make sure
10 that the story that these EV drivers have told is
11 well-distributed throughout the State of California.
12 I think one of the key factors to that is the
13 dealers, because and ill-informed dealer can make a lot
14 of folks just turn around and go in the opposite
15 direction.
16 So, it certainly will be something that we
17 will rely on everyone in the industry to be fully
18 informed of the benefits of this, and certainly, this
19 is not going to meet the needs of all the drivers of
20 the State of California in the early years, so we need
21 to make certain that we do know what the capabilities
22 are of this technology and make sure that everyone is
23 well-informed about that.
24 I know that there are in the pipeline several
25 measures for incentives to the drivers of these
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1 vehicles, including financial incentives, including
2 allowing single occupants to drive in the diamond lanes
3 and so forth.
4 I think we ought to explore, are there other
5 incentives that would be appropriate to use to get
6 folks into these cars.
7 Lastly, I think it is absolutely critically
8 important that we have incentives for the manufacturers
9 and incentives for the dealers to make certain that the
10 market is going to be there for them and that they are
11 not going to be sustaining huge financial losses in the
12 near term.
13 That is very important that we make certain
14 that this is not a tremendous burden on anyone. I
15 believe that we have the capability to do that.
16 That being said, again, I would like to thank
17 everyone for their participation.
18 The staff, as always rises to the challenge.
19 The thought that the staff report was particularly
20 well-balanced.
21 I like it when you don't just give us the rosy
22 picture but instead you give us the truth, and I think
23 that that's absolutely very important.
24 My hat is off to all of the hard-working folks
25 at the Air Resources Board.
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1 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Thank you.
3 I would like to thank my colleagues for all of
4 those very thoughtful comments and also for your
5 participation and all of the input over the last two
6 days and dedication that we have seen.
7 Before closing and getting the Resolution, I
8 would thank the auto companies, also.
9 I went to Japan to visit with the Japanese
10 auto manufacturers, and I went to Detroit, and I would
11 like to say how much I appreciated the information they
12 shared, the courtesy they showed us at that time.
13 I learned a great deal, and I learned that in
14 some cases they may not agree with where we were going,
15 but that is not stopping them from going ahead.
16 I also marvel at the technology that they've
17 got.
18 So, I also agree with Mr. Calhoun and the
19 confidence that he shows in the industry.
20 I would direct a comment here as I see it, and
21 I think the automakers, you've heard the wishes of my
22 colleagues on the Board, however, we want very much to
23 work with you, because we want to make this a success.
24 As you have heard, we are directing staff and
25 directing staff to work with you to find out a path to
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1 success, and that is very important.
2 Let's not get lost in that part of it.
3 Also, I think I would like to thank staff for
4 their excellent work here, at the workshops and in
5 meeting, and I would start at the top with Mr. Kenny,
6 Tom Cackette, and Catherine on my staff, then Kathleen,
7 Lynn, to a less extent, Bob, Chuck, for not only the
8 work he did in the workshop but also organizing the
9 trip to Japan, Jack, who is not there, Annalisa, Lisa
10 and also Craig, and others.
11 So, I want to personally all of your efforts
12 and the high standards that you maintained through all
13 of this.
14 I went to some of those workshops, and I
15 thought you did an outstanding job. Here, it makes me
16 proud to be part of this Board and my colleagues, and I
17 thank you all personally.
18 I think, you know, Mr. Kenny, the staff was
19 working, listening closely to all of us, taking notes,
20 in fact, I was frustrated trying to get attention to
21 any of you down there, you were so absorbed in that,
22 and that's a compliment there.
23 You've heard our concerns and instructions
24 that you got from each of the Board Members. I think
25 that you are prepared to come back to us with the
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1 appropriate regulatory language to make these things
2 happen.
3 However, the one thing that concerns me is
4 time. I think the automakers are truly up against it
5 to meet the 2003 deadline.
6 Now we have this issue that we have basically
7 a ZEV blackout, and I think for that reason we need to
8 move as quickly as possible on the changes so we
9 actively do some good in that case.
10 How soon can you return to the Board with the
11 actions items that we have discussed?
12 MR. KENNY: I think we can come back in
13 January, and that will require extraordinarily fast
14 track.
15 The process itself for proposing any kind of a
16 modification is at least a two-month notice requirement
17 essentially associated with it, but we feel an
18 obligation to at least share any thoughts that we have
19 in a workshop process so that individuals know what we
20 are thinking in advance.
21 If we begin expeditiously to work on this on
22 Monday, and then try to workshop it in early October,
23 and put the proposals out for consideration by early
24 December, and that will be brought to the Board for
25 complete consideration in January.
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1 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Okay. I'm not sure that my
2 colleagues had a chance to read the Resolution
3 beforehand.
4 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: Let me just make
5 a motion, if it's in order, and then there can be a, if
6 there is a second, there can be discussion.
7 BOARD MEMBER RIORDAN: I second the motion.
8 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: How long does he get
9 to read the motion?
10 BOARD MEMBER C.H. FRIEDMAN: The Resolution
11 would read, after a number of recitals, it would seem
12 appropriate based on what we've heard and the comments
13 that have been made here by Board Members.
14 The Board finds the ZEV program to be an
15 essential component of the State's long-term air
16 quality strategy, be it further resolved that the basic
17 ZEV requirements be retained and implemented in
18 California, be it further resolved that the Board finds
19 that the ZEV program has brought about significant
20 technological advances through automakers' efforts to
21 develop electric vehicles and interest in developing
22 alternatives to electric vehicles, be it further
23 resolved that the Board finds that the ZEV program is
24 responsible for a renewed National and International
25 focus on electric vehicles and related clean vehicle
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1 technologies, be it further resolved that the Board
2 directs the staff to develop and propose regulatory
3 modifications and other steps and strategies that
4 address the challenges associated with the successful
5 long-term implementation of the ZEV program, in
6 particular, the need for product availability and
7 market stability, the need to greatly enhance public
8 awareness and education of the attributes and benefits
9 of ZEV technologies, and the need to reduce or mitigate
10 the high initial costs of vehicles and batteries in low
11 volume production, and that result in a sustainable
12 market for ZEVs, and be it finally resolved that such
13 proposed regulatory modifications and strategies shall
14 be brought to the Board as, by January, taking Mr.
15 Kenny's statement that it can be done by then.
16 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Yes, Dr. Burke.
17 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: Mr. Chair, I don't think
18 what I'm saying is going to require any modification to
19 this Resolution, but I would like the staff to consider
20 that when we do these outreach public workshops that
21 some consideration for distribution of population, if
22 you're going to do it on an informational basis, to be
23 considered where they hold them.
24 I did get, in these million meetings I had, a
25 compliment to you and to Mike for coming to an area
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1 which normally is not visited by regulators, and I
2 can't tell you how appreciative those people were, and
3 they're interested, and they want to know.
4 If we can consider that, I would appreciate it
5 very much.
6 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Dr. Burke, I couldn't agree
7 with you more.
8 Having visited one of the Hispanic
9 communities, I was struck by the fact of their
10 willingness to work with us, but they do not have the
11 tools, they don't have the literature and they don't
12 know how to proceed.
13 I agree.
14 I think that with this Resolution, obviously
15 staff took notes of all of the Board actions and
16 suggestions here, and to me those are all incorporated
17 here, and this is the Resolution before the Board to
18 sign.
19 Yes, Mr. McKinnon.
20 BOARD MEMBER McKINNON: Speaking in favor of
21 the Resolution, just very briefly, I would like to be
22 really clear that kind of the way that I view us
23 looking at things in the future is tweaking, that the
24 message that my vote sends is that I want it to be
25 clear that the mandate continues, that there is no
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1 major changes, and if manufacturers want to plan or
2 whatever, there are no major changes in the planning,
3 that's my vote.
4 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: I certainly think that was
5 implied.
6 As we recognized before, it is a long-term
7 strategy. We have to worry about the health here.
8 We have to accommodate the growth, the
9 continued population growth, continued economic
10 vitality in California, and obviously we have to look
11 at the transportation side, be able to look at the
12 diversity, the efficiency side and all of those are
13 intertwined, and I agree it is just not a short-term
14 thing.
15 Otherwise, we will lose site of our vision of
16 where we need to go.
17 BOARD MEMBER RIORDAN: Mr. Chairman, I do
18 think that the Resolution is pretty clear in the
19 beginning about, it's the first and second, therefore
20 be it resolved, that it's a real strong message in
21 those first two recitals.
22 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: Any further discussion?
23 BOARD MEMBER D'ADAMO: Second.
24 Is there a second to the motion?
25 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: There is a second.
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1 BOARD MEMBER RIORDAN: The second was before
2 the Resolution.
3 CHAIRMAN LLOYD: With that, I would like to
4 call for a vote here.
5 All in favor, say aye.
6 Any nays, say no.
7 Unanimous vote.
8 Thank you for very much, and thank you all for
9 participating and I look forward to us continuing to
10 work together.
11 (Thereupon the Air Resources Board meeting
12 was adjourned at 1:18 p.m.)
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1 CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER
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3 I, VICKI L. OGELVIE, a Certified Shorthand
4 Reporter of the State of California, do hereby certify:
5 That I am a disinterested person herein; that
6 the foregoing hearing was reported in shorthand by me,
7 Vicki L. Ogelvie, a Certified Shorthand Reporter of the
8 State of California, and thereafter transcribed into
9 typewriting.
10 I further certify that I am not of counsel or
11 attorney for any of the parties to said hearing nor in
12 any way interested in the outcome of said hearing.
13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
14 hand this thirteenth day of September, 2000.
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VICKI L. OGELVIE
18 Certified Shorthand Reporter
License No. 7871
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