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hrc!gtephx!covertr
From: covertr@gtephx.UUCP (Richard E. Covert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: IS MT UUCP Legal??
Keywords: atari st, gnu, uucp
Message-ID: <4456ee6c.14a1f@gtephx.UUCP>
Date: 10 Jul 89 17:05:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AG Communication Systems, Phoenix, Arizona
Lines: 12


	I just saw a version of 'uucp' being sold by the company
that makes the MT C Shell. I also noticed in the credits for uucp in the
manual, that it was ported to the ST from C Code by the GNU Freeware
people. My question is:
	Is it ethical for someone to port freeware code from one
one computer to another, and then sell the ported code??

	The 'uucp' sold for $49.95 and has a very skimpy manual.
About 10 pages in the small manual sized pages.

Richard (gtephx!covertr) Covert

Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!
sun-barr!newstop!sun!imagen!atari!apratt
From: apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: GNU programs, copyleft (was Re: IS MT UUCP Legal??) (long)
Keywords: atari st, gnu, uucp
Message-ID: <1602@atari.UUCP>
Date: 11 Jul 89 18:48:35 GMT
References: <4456ee6c.14a1f@gtephx.UUCP>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Atari Corp., Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 296

covertr@gtephx.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) writes:
>	I just saw a version of 'uucp' being sold by the company
>that makes the MT C Shell. I also noticed in the credits for uucp in the
>manual, that it was ported to the ST from C Code by the GNU Freeware
>people. My question is:
>	Is it ethical for someone to port freeware code from one
>one computer to another, and then sell the ported code??

>	The 'uucp' sold for $49.95 and has a very skimpy manual.
>About 10 pages in the small manual sized pages.

>Richard (gtephx!covertr) Covert

FSF (The Free Software Foundation) makes their copying and derivative-
works policy very clear.  Selling a derivative work is not allowed by
their guidelines.  Furthermore, their stuff is usually copyright FSF,
so there's some law behind their requests.  However, to my knowledge,
there has never been a court challenge to their guidelines, so I don't
know what the legal community has to say about them.  I suspect they're
indefensible, but that's not an expert opinion.

You're right to ask about ethics, not law.  No, it's not ethical: it
goes against the stated intents and requests of the authors.  On the
other hand, it took some work to port the stuff, work to create the
manual and put together a package (a system people can use, valuable
compared to a group of programs), and work to make it available.  Some
people think they should be compensated for that kind of work.  See the
Free Software Foundation's publication, The Gnu Manifesto, for their
side.

The file COPYING, included below, comes with most FSF stuff.  It
describes their rights and copying policies, and works covered by it
are known informally as "copylefted" (though they are also sometimes
copyrighted as well).

I find the copyleft annoying, because it means I can't use GCC to
develop programs which Atari hopes to profit from: code generated by
the C compiler, and certainly code with FSF library modules included,
count as derivative works.  GCC is the best compiler I can't use.

After my signature is a copy of the file COPYING as received from
BAMMI@CWRU when he sent me the GCC 1.35 distribution sources.

============================================
Opinions expressed above do not necessarily	-- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp.
reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else.	  ...ames!atari!apratt


		    GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
		     Version 1, February 1989

 Copyright (C) 1989 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
                    675 Mass Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA
 Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies
 of this license document, but changing it is not allowed.

			    Preamble

  The license agreements of most software companies try to keep users
at the mercy of those companies.  By contrast, our General Public
License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free
software--to make sure the software is free for all its users.  The
General Public License applies to the Free Software Foundation's
software and to any other program whose authors commit to using it.
You can use it for your programs, too.

  When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not
price.  Specifically, the General Public License is designed to make
sure that you have the freedom to give away or sell copies of free
software, that you receive source code or can get it if you want it,
that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free
programs; and that you know you can do these things.

  To protect your rights, we need to make restrictions that forbid
anyone to deny you these rights or to ask you to surrender the rights.
These restrictions translate to certain responsibilities for you if you
distribute copies of the software, or if you modify it.

  For example, if you distribute copies of a such a program, whether
gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that
you have.  You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the
source code.  And you must tell them their rights.

  We protect your rights with two steps: (1) copyright the software, and
(2) offer you this license which gives you legal permission to copy,
distribute and/or modify the software.

  Also, for each author's protection and ours, we want to make certain
that everyone understands that there is no warranty for this free
software.  If the software is modified by someone else and passed on, we
want its recipients to know that what they have is not the original, so
that any problems introduced by others will not reflect on the original
authors' reputations.

  The precise terms and conditions for copying, distribution and
modification follow.

		    GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
   TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION

  0. This License Agreement applies to any program or other work which
contains a notice placed by the copyright holder saying it may be
distributed under the terms of this General Public License.  The
"Program", below, refers to any such program or work, and a "work based
on the Program" means either the Program or any work containing the
Program or a portion of it, either verbatim or with modifications.  Each
licensee is addressed as "you".

  1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's source
code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you conspicuously and
appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice and
disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the notices that refer to this
General Public License and to the absence of any warranty; and give any
other recipients of the Program a copy of this General Public License
along with the Program.  You may charge a fee for the physical act of
transferring a copy.

  2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of
it, and copy and distribute such modifications under the terms of Paragraph
1 above, provided that you also do the following:

    a) cause the modified files to carry prominent notices stating that
    you changed the files and the date of any change; and

    b) cause the whole of any work that you distribute or publish, that
    in whole or in part contains the Program or any part thereof, either
    with or without modifications, to be licensed at no charge to all
    third parties under the terms of this General Public License (except
    that you may choose to grant warranty protection to some or all
    third parties, at your option).

    c) If the modified program normally reads commands interactively when
    run, you must cause it, when started running for such interactive use
    in the simplest and most usual way, to print or display an
    announcement including an appropriate copyright notice and a notice
    that there is no warranty (or else, saying that you provide a
    warranty) and that users may redistribute the program under these
    conditions, and telling the user how to view a copy of this General
    Public License.

    d) You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a
    copy, and you may at your option offer warranty protection in
    exchange for a fee.

Mere aggregation of another independent work with the Program (or its
derivative) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring
the other work under the scope of these terms.

  3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a portion or derivative of
it, under Paragraph 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
Paragraphs 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

    a) accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
    source code, which must be distributed under the terms of
    Paragraphs 1 and 2 above; or,

    b) accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
    years, to give any third party free (except for a nominal charge
    for the cost of distribution) a complete machine-readable copy of the
    corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of
    Paragraphs 1 and 2 above; or,

    c) accompany it with the information you received as to where the
    corresponding source code may be obtained.  (This alternative is
    allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you
    received the program in object code or executable form alone.)

Source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making
modifications to it.  For an executable file, complete source code means
all the source code for all modules it contains; but, as a special
exception, it need not include source code for modules which are standard
libraries that accompany the operating system on which the executable
file runs, or for standard header files or definitions files that
accompany that operating system.

  4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, distribute or transfer the
Program except as expressly provided under this General Public License.
Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense, distribute or transfer
the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your rights to use
the Program under this License.  However, parties who have received
copies, or rights to use copies, from you under this General Public
License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties
remain in full compliance.

  5. By copying, distributing or modifying the Program (or any work based
on the Program) you indicate your acceptance of this license to do so,
and all its terms and conditions.

  6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the
Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original
licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to these
terms and conditions.  You may not impose any further restrictions on the
recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein.

  7. The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions
of the General Public License from time to time.  Such new versions will
be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to
address new problems or concerns.

Each version is given a distinguishing version number.  If the Program
specifies a version number of the license which applies to it and "any
later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions
either of that version or of any later version published by the Free
Software Foundation.  If the Program does not specify a version number of
the license, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software
Foundation.

  8. If you wish to incorporate parts of the Program into other free
programs whose distribution conditions are different, write to the author
to ask for permission.  For software which is copyrighted by the Free
Software Foundation, write to the Free Software Foundation; we sometimes
make exceptions for this.  Our decision will be guided by the two goals
of preserving the free status of all derivatives of our free software and
of promoting the sharing and reuse of software generally.

			    NO WARRANTY

  9. BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY
FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW.  EXCEPT WHEN
OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES
PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED
OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  THE ENTIRE RISK AS
TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU.  SHOULD THE
PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING,
REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

  10. IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING
WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR
REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES,
INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING
OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY
YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER
PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.

		     END OF TERMS AND CONDITIONS

	Appendix: How to Apply These Terms to Your New Programs

  If you develop a new program, and you want it to be of the greatest
possible use to humanity, the best way to achieve this is to make it
free software which everyone can redistribute and change under these
terms.

  To do so, attach the following notices to the program.  It is safest to
attach them to the start of each source file to most effectively convey
the exclusion of warranty; and each file should have at least the
"copyright" line and a pointer to where the full notice is found.

    <one line to give the program's name and a brief idea of what it does.>
    Copyright (C) 19yy  <name of author>

    This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
    it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
    the Free Software Foundation; either version 1, or (at your option)
    any later version.

    This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
    but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
    MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
    GNU General Public License for more details.

    You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
    along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
    Foundation, Inc., 675 Mass Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA.

Also add information on how to contact you by electronic and paper mail.

If the program is interactive, make it output a short notice like this
when it starts in an interactive mode:

    Gnomovision version 69, Copyright (C) 19xx name of author
    Gnomovision comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `show w'.
    This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
    under certain conditions; type `show c' for details.

The hypothetical commands `show w' and `show c' should show the
appropriate parts of the General Public License.  Of course, the
commands you use may be called something other than `show w' and `show
c'; they could even be mouse-clicks or menu items--whatever suits your
program.

You should also get your employer (if you work as a programmer) or your
school, if any, to sign a "copyright disclaimer" for the program, if
necessary.  Here a sample; alter the names:

  Yoyodyne, Inc., hereby disclaims all copyright interest in the
  program `Gnomovision' (a program to direct compilers to make passes
  at assemblers) written by James Hacker.

  <signature of Ty Coon>, 1 April 1989
  Ty Coon, President of Vice

That's all there is to it!

Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!
unisoft!bdt!david
From: david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: IS MT UUCP Legal??
Keywords: atari st, gnu, uucp
Message-ID: <613@bdt.UUCP>
Date: 15 Jul 89 02:22:39 GMT
References: <4456ee6c.14a1f@gtephx.UUCP> <1602@atari.UUCP>
Reply-To: david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Beckemeyer Development Tools, Oakland, CA
Lines: 57


I worked very closely with John Gillmore (hoptoad!gnu) the author of GNUUCP
and a close partner in the GNU project before I released the MT UUCP stuff.

We discussed *EXACTLY* what I was doing and what I intended to do with
GNUUCP.   I found out exactly how to handle the distribution of GNUUCP,
with the agreement of John Gillmore and GNU.

Apparently the license for GNUUCP is slightly different from that of GCC.
In fact, GNUUCP has never become an official part of the GNU distribution
as far as I know.

I distribute the GNUUCP license I received from John Gillmore with
every copy of MT UUCP.   I'm not going to post the whole license.  It
is similar to the GCC license that Allan Pratt posted, but differs
in a few particular areas.

The relavent things regarding the GNUUCP license are:

	1)  I make the GNUUCP source code availabe for three years at
	    a nominal cost, as required by the license.  Some parts
	    of the MT UUCP are *NOT* covered under the GNU license.

	2)  I am not selling a derivative work of GNUUCP.   I am
	    selling my programs, the manual, and a warrantee and
	    professional support service.  The service includes
	    technical support and a free BBS and also UUCP
	    connections.

	3)  All the appropriate GNU Copyright notices are present.

	4)  The fact that my programs are distributed on a disk
	    that also has GNUUCP doesn't mean that they are part
	    of GNUUCP or controlled by the GNU license.

I made a lot of modifications to the GNUUCP programs to add MT support.
I wrote some new programs, deriving some of the code from GNUUCP.
I wrote some programs from scratch, unrelated to GNUUCP.

All the code that I wrote which contains even one line from anything
in GNUUCP are covered by the GNU license and are available to anybody
who wants it, for a small copying fee.   The programs that are not
derived from GNUUCP are not available except with MT C-Shell UUCP.
You don't get UUCP support or the manual or access to the UUCP BBS
files unless you are a registered owner of MT C-Shell UUCP.

I made the full source available to AT&T and GNU.  They all agree that
the portions which are written and copyrighted by me aren't derived from
their code.   

Is everybody happy?

-- 
David Beckemeyer (david@bdt.UUCP)	| "Adios amigos.  And, as they say when 
Beckemeyer Development Tools		| the boys are scratching the bad ones,
478 Santa Clara Ave. Oakland, CA 94610	| 'Stay a long time, Cowboy!'"
UUCP: {uunet,ucbvax}!unisoft!bdt!david	|                  - Jo Mora

Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!ames!pasteur!ucbvax!
hoptoad!gnu
From: gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: IS MT UUCP Legal??
Keywords: atari st, gnu, uucp
Message-ID: <8024@hoptoad.uucp>
Date: 17 Jul 89 18:56:35 GMT
References: <4456ee6c.14a1f@gtephx.UUCP> <1602@atari.UUCP> <613@bdt.UUCP>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Grasshopper Group in San Francisco
Lines: 43

David Beckemeyer is correct -- MT UUCP is legal.  I supplied him with a
prerelease of gnuucp, he ported it to the ST, and provided the changes
back to me.  He also wrote some auxiliary programs (NOT linked with FSF
code) that do things like email and netnews, building on the facilities
provided by gnuucp.  I don't think any of you would claim that because
the Unix netnews code uses uucp for its transport mechanism, its
copyright must somehow be tied in with Unix uucp's.  Ditto David's code.

GNUUCP was distributed to David before the "generic" GNU GENERAL
PUBLIC LICENSE was written, so it uses the old GNU license.

GNUUCP has not been publicly distributed by FSF because I don't have
the time to coordinate a large number of changes to it.  I am having
trouble keeping up with the small set of people who are currently
working on the code.  Unlike many GNU programs, this one is being used
on many small systems (ST's, Macs, Amigas, CP/M, MSDOS) as well as a
variety of Unix machines.  An earlier version of GNUUCP is the
transport layer for the program (ufgate) that gateways Fidonet email to
and from the Usenet, for example.

Without a central clearinghouse (one person) coordinating changes,
there would soon be twenty variants, with twenty sets of bugs and
features -- not what I or FSF are trying to accomplish.  We're looking
for a coordinator for it, who is as committed to keeping the small
systems supported as the virtual memory 32-bit Unix systems.  This
attitude isn't common in the GNU project, but for a product that is
part of the "glue" in the Worldnet, it is vital.

By the way, David Beckemeyer said:
> 	2)  I am not selling a derivative work of GNUUCP.   I am
> 	    selling my programs, the manual, and a warrantee and
> 	    professional support service.  The service includes
> 	    technical support and a free BBS and also UUCP
> 	    connections.

It is fine to sell GNU programs and derivative works.  You just have to
include the source code, and the right to redistribute, along with the
binaries (if any).  The Free Software Foundation itself sells GNU
programs, and you can too!
-- 
John Gilmore      {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid}!hoptoad!gnu      g...@toad.com
      "And if there's danger don't you try to overlook it,
       Because you knew the job was dangerous when you took it"

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