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From: r...@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Richard Stallman)
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs
Subject: Emacs book that isn't free?
Message-ID: <9110220208.AA04552@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 21 Oct 91 18:08:28 GMT
References: <1991Oct21.212040.25961@linus.mitre.org>
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Please don't use the GNU mailing lists to promote books which the users
are not free to copy. Only projects devoted to serving the public
deserve to be advertised here.
If, however, you find some way in which the free documentation of GNU
Emacs is deficient, please send a bug report to
bug-gnu-em...@prep.ai.mit.edu suggesting specific areas for
improvement.
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From: pa...@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis)
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs
Subject: Re: Emacs book that isn't free?
Message-ID: <1991Oct22.160337.20108@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
Date: 22 Oct 91 16:03:37 GMT
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In article <9110220208.AA04...@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu> r...@gnu.ai.mit.edu
(Richard Stallman) writes:
>Please don't use the GNU mailing lists to promote books which the users
>are not free to copy. Only projects devoted to serving the public
>deserve to be advertised here.
>
>If, however, you find some way in which the free documentation of GNU
>Emacs is deficient, please send a bug report to
>bug-gnu-em...@prep.ai.mit.edu suggesting specific areas for
>improvement.
I'm outraged ! RMS has specifically made it clear that he considers it
OK and perhaps even desirable to charge money for supporting GNU
software. How does the publication of a book on a piece of GNU
software, which effectively functions as remote, impersonal software
support, contravene the GNU manifesto ?
-- paul
--
"And I promised that I would forgive nothing, and change everything.
But this was before I became trapped in the habits & haunts of this world."
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!think.com!barmar
From: bar...@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs
Subject: Re: Emacs book that isn't free?
Message-ID: <kg926kINNeu5@early-bird.think.com>
Date: 22 Oct 91 20:23:48 GMT
References: <1991Oct21.212040.25961@linus.mitre.org>
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In article <1991Oct22.160337.20...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
pa...@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis) writes:
>In article <9110220208.AA04...@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu> r...@gnu.ai.mit.edu
(Richard Stallman) writes:
>>Please don't use the GNU mailing lists to promote books which the users
>>are not free to copy. Only projects devoted to serving the public
>>deserve to be advertised here.
>I'm outraged ! RMS has specifically made it clear that he considers it
>OK and perhaps even desirable to charge money for supporting GNU
>software. How does the publication of a book on a piece of GNU
>software, which effectively functions as remote, impersonal software
>support, contravene the GNU manifesto ?
Where did RMS's message say anything against charging money? He was
complaining about use of the GNU lists to advertise books that have
restrictive copyrights; the operative phrase was "users are not free to
copy". The FSF itself sells their manuals for money; however, the
copyright page contains the following (I'm getting this from the GNU Emacs
Lisp Reference Manual):
Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of this
manual provided the copyright notice and this permission notice are
preserved on all copues.
Permission is granted to copy and distribute modified versions of this
manual under the conditions for verbatim copying, provided that the
entire resulting derived work is distributed under the terms of a
permission notice identical to this one.
Permission is granted to copy and distribute translations of this
manual into another language, under the above conditions for modified
versions, except that this permission notice may be stated in a
translation approved by the Foundation.
If you want to translate this to your software support analogy, the only
similar situtation I can think of would be a support service that tells you
how to solve a problem or trains your users, but says, "you can't pass this
information on to anyone else -- they have to pay us for the information."
--
Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp.
bar...@think.com
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pauld
From: pa...@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis)
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs
Subject: Re: Emacs book that isn't free?
Message-ID: <1991Oct22.211610.1920@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
Date: 22 Oct 91 21:16:10 GMT
References: <9110220208.AA04552@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
<1991Oct22.160337.20108@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
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In article <kg926kINN...@early-bird.think.com> bar...@think.com
(Barry Margolin) writes:
makes some good points, including:
>If you want to translate this to your software support analogy, the only
>similar situtation I can think of would be a support service that tells you
>how to solve a problem or trains your users, but says, "you can't pass this
>information on to anyone else -- they have to pay us for the information."
After a discussion with RMS, I now agree with Barry & RMS, and regard
the imposition of a ban on copying the O'Reilly book as against the
principles of the GNU Manifesto. Barry's analogy above says it all.
Apologies to Richard et al. for being a temporary disbeliever.
-- paul
--
"And I promised that I would forgive nothing, and change everything.
But this was before I became trapped in the habits & haunts of this world."
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From: t...@ora.com (Tim O'Reilly)
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs
Subject: Re: Emacs book that isn't free?
Summary: argument for free expression
Message-ID: <1991Oct25.151341.28318@ora.com>
Date: 25 Oct 91 15:13:41 GMT
References: <9110220208.AA04552@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
<1991Oct22.211610.1920@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
Followup-To: comp.emacs gnu.misc.discuss
Organization: O'Reilly and Associates Inc., Cambridge MA
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In article <1991Oct22.211610.1...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, pa...@cs.washington
.edu (Paul Barton-Davis) writes:
> In article <kg926kINN...@early-bird.think.com> bar...@think.com (Barry Margoli
n) writes:
>
> >If you want to translate this to your software support analogy, the only
> >similar situtation I can think of would be a support service that tells you
> >how to solve a problem or trains your users, but says, "you can't pass this
> >information on to anyone else -- they have to pay us for the information."
>
> >similar situtation I can think of would be a support service that tells you
> >how to solve a problem or trains your users, but says, "you can't pass this
> >information on to anyone else -- they have to pay us for the information."
>
> After a discussion with RMS, I now agree with Barry & RMS, and regard
> the imposition of a ban on copying the O'Reilly book as against the
> principles of the GNU Manifesto. Barry's analogy above says it all.
I know I'll probably continue this tempest in a teapot, but I
can't help trying to make some sense out of this crazy analogy.
There is *absolutely nothing* in Copyright law, or in any
publisher's policies, that prevents anyone from passing along
information they gained from a book! Please, please, please, if
you learn anything from any of our books, please feel free to
pass it along. Publishers have done more for the free
interchange of information than just about any other group.
However, copying an entire book deprives the author and the
publisher of any recompense for their efforts. It's commonly
called "biting the hand that feeds you." The true analogy in
software support would be masquerading as someone else who has
paid for a support contract, in order to get access to their
service.
I would also hope that even the most ardent followers of the FSF
must recognize economic realities. Why else does the FSF accept
donations? Let me make a proposal: copy away, if you like to
manufacture your own copies of our books--but send a donation to
the author and the publisher, to encourage them to keep up the
good work, just as you might do with the FSF itself. Put your
support where your mouth is. If you value something, encourage
its continued existence. Our authors typically make about a 10%
royalty; our own profit margins are in the 8-10% range. A
donation of $5 would probably cover both author and publisher
just fine. If enough believers in free software are willing to
make donations to support what they believe, maybe one day we
will be able to publish free books.
For now, economic realities being what they are, it's either
charge for books or stop publishing them.
I am saddened by RMS's attitude on this subject, because books,
like support services, can do a great deal to legitimize and publicize free
software--at minimal cost to the user. I should think that the
FSF would welcome third party books with open arms, because
they allow the FSF to concentrate its own efforts on the job of
developing software.
--
Tim O'Reilly @ O'Reilly & Associates, Inc. Publishers of Nutshell Handbooks
632 Petaluma Avenue, Sebastopol, CA 95472
707-829-8512, 800-338-6887 (in CA 800-533-6887), FAX 707-829-0104
Internet: t...@ora.com UUCP: uunet!ora!tim
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From: r...@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Richard Stallman)
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs
Subject: Emacs book that isn't free?
Message-ID: <9110251739.AA02523@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 25 Oct 91 09:39:20 GMT
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Whether you are glad or sad about the FSF's idea that the GNU system
should include good documentation, and that users who write good
documentation ought to contribute it to the GNU system just like users
who write good code, stating your feelings on gnu.emacs.help is not
appropriate (unless you are speaking officially for the FSF).
Please use gnu.misc.discuss to discuss such topics.