Path: gmdzi!ieee.org!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!
zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!gnu.ai.mit.edu!rms
From: r...@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Richard Stallman)
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs
Subject: Books we can't redistribute
Message-ID: <9111150432.AA22191@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 14 Nov 91 18:32:37 GMT
References: <ROISE.91Nov14013804@sumax.seattleu.edu>
Sender: dae...@cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Gatewayed from the GNU Project mailing list
help-gnu-em...@prep.ai.mit.edu
Lines: 22
I discovered a book at Walden Software, Westlake Mall, downtown
Seattle, WA, just this week:
I know you were trying to be helpful, but this isn't the right way
to do it--not on the help-gnu-emacs mailing list (aka gnu.emacs.help).
The idea of the GNU project is to create a system that users are free
to share. So far the documentation is not keeping up with the
software. We need more people to write books and let GNU users
redistribute and change them (as we have done with the GNU manuals we
have).
People who write more documentation and then won't share it have
refused to contribute to the GNU project when they had the chance.
They have also set a bad example for other people who might write
useful manuals in the future. People who have been uncooperative
in this way don't deserve free advertising. But that is what they
get if you tell people where to order the book.
So please don't use the FSF lists/newsgroups to post information of
this sort.
Path: gmdzi!ieee.org!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!
sumax.seattleu.edu!roise
From: ro...@sumax.seattleu.edu (Linda Roise)
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs
Subject: Books we can't redistribute
Message-ID: <9111150537.AA05761@sumax.seattleu.edu>
Date: 14 Nov 91 13:37:41 GMT
References: <9111150432.AA22191@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Sender: dae...@cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Gatewayed from the GNU Project mailing list
help-gnu-em...@prep.ai.mit.edu
Lines: 141
I discovered a book at Walden Software, Westlake Mall,
downtown Seattle, WA, just this week:
I know you were trying to be helpful, but this isn't the
right way to do it--not on the help-gnu-emacs mailing
list (aka gnu.emacs.help).
You may notice that I withdrew the post after someone pointed out that
my post had cross-posted to the gnu.emacs.help newsgroup. I had
posted in response to a cross-posted question and unthinkingly didn't
check the distribution.
My first impulse had been to write to you and see whether you had
given leave for the book to be distributed in this way. I had gone to
several computer book stores in the Seattle area, asking whether they
had any books published by Free Software Foundation. None had ever
heard of FSF. I did this after reading in one of the emacs newsgroups
your post suggesting that some bookstores carried them and that we
should ask for them. That in itself surprised and confused me,
because I didn't see how that fit with my admittedly imperfect
understanding of the gnu manifesto.
It was on my quest for FSF books that the folks at Walden Software
said, "Oh, we have a book on Emacs," and pointed out the book. I
thought it possible that Hayden Books was an pseudonym for FSF. The
many references to you and to Gnu in the book confused me about its
origins.
People who write more documentation and then won't share
it have refused to contribute to the GNU project when
they had the chance.
I understand you to be saying that the authors have chosen to use
their documentation for their own profit rather than distribute it
freely. Can you offer more clarification on how the official manuals
are distributed through book stores, and exactly what we potential
buyers should do to get book stores to carry them? Are they sold,
then, at cost? Does the book store then have to sell them at no
profit, and do we, then, need to attempt to encourage the book stores
to contribute to the Gnu project by donating time and space to become
distribution centers? Since this is e-mail and you can't hear my
voice tone, I need to say that I am NOT being sarcastic here at all; I
do want to know what your intentions are in this regard, and how I can
help.
They have also set a bad example for other people who
might write useful manuals in the future. People who
have been uncooperative in this way don't deserve free
advertising. But that is what they get if you tell
people where to order the book.
So please don't use the FSF lists/newsgroups to post
information of this sort.
I didn't use the gnu.emacs.help group intentionally--was actually
responding to a question in comp.emacs, although, to be honest, I
probably wouldn't have realized any better, had I noticed the gnu.*
crosspost. I had read the manifesto and been interested in the
intentions and WONDERED how this book could be published commercially,
but had seen you referred to in it and assumed that there was
something I simply didn't understand about the philosophy and that you
were involved in it. I had some subconscious concerns about it, which
I voiced in the original post.
The idea of the GNU project is to create a system that
users are free to share. So far the documentation is not
keeping up with the software. We need more people to
write books and let GNU users redistribute and change
them (as we have done with the GNU manuals we have).
This is the part I find confusing and I guess I just need to do my
homework better. If the documentation is not keeping up with the
software, what can we who want to LEARN do?
I've been working with emacs for nearly a year now. I'd first become
proficient in vi, but became an immediate convert to emacs after first
limping along in VIP mode so that I could use the vi functions my
fingers had memorized, at least until I'd learned how to do those
things in emacs. As soon as I figured out the necessary keystrokes
and settings, I quit using VIP mode. I've only just begun to feel
comfortable with the help mode adequately to find out what I need to
know online. Please understand, too, that I came to computers through
Apple//e's and then Macs, then unix and DOS, so I am a truly odd
creature by this time.
I am one of those strange users who RTFMs before asking questions of
anybody. I asked my system administrator to download the manual, and
he printed one master copy of it, and I had five copies of the master
made (it's the 1986 edition; he was under the impression that it was
the most recent, but I now doubt it). I distributed the five copies
free of charge to anyone at Seattle University whom I could convince
to try learning emacs. They were printed at my expense and
distributed free. I've been reading and practicing with mine for
about eight months.
But I needed something that stated things slightly differently, to
clarify concepts. So when I saw your post saying that it was possible
to buy emacs manuals at bookstores, that was what I was hoping to
do--acquire the latest edition of any of the FSF manuals I could find.
Within 24 hours of my acquiring this book, another user posted a plea,
on comp.emacs, for more documentation and I mentioned the book. When I
realized what I'd done, I expected to get flamed, and have received so
far only three letters, yours among the three, all fairly gentle with
ME, but it was very clear that I had made a mistake.
I am hoping to clarify how this happened, and to say that I am a
little concerned about the difficulty of keeping the documentation up
with the software. I hear you saying that those of us who use and
modify emacs should be participating in the project by adding to the
documentation--is that correct? But how are we to learn enough to add
to the documentation if we have inadequate documentation to begin with?
I'm not a programmer, so I don't know what I can do to help change
this situation. I have edited books, but of a non-computer nature. I
could probably review or edit someone else's work, as well as provide
the perspective of a computer devotee whose major education and
professional experience is in the humanities rather than the sciences.
I look at things slightly differently from most people I know who love
computers, with the eye of a poet rather than a mathematician. That
has been very helpful as I've tried to teach computerphobic professors
at my university how to read e-mail (which has been a MAJOR
unpaid-hobby for me during the past two years). But there are lots of
givens that I don't have, which makes me suscptible to falling into
the kind of error I've fallen into here.
So again, my apologies. Because of the first letter I received, I
withdrew my post from comp.emacs and gnu.emacs.help and because of the
second letter, I reconsidered and reposted to comp.emacs and
comp.editors. In view of your letter, I'm thinking that perhaps that
too was a mistake, but I think at this point that I will let it stand,
since it's not in the gnu.* groups. I've blundered into a major
philosophical conflict here, I guess, but I refuse to let that take
away my delight in learning and working with this fine program.
---
......Linda L. Roise Seattle University ro...@sumax.seattleu.edu
......Asst. Prof. of University of Washington ro...@u.washington.edu
...Addiction Studies Lewis & Clark College lro...@sun.lclark.edu
..Seattle University Prodgy : JXCX33A FreeNet: aj...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Path: gmdzi!ieee.org!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
cis.ohio-state.edu!gnu.ai.mit.edu!rms
From: r...@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Richard Stallman)
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs
Subject: Books we can't redistribute
Message-ID: <9111151439.AA22379@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 15 Nov 91 04:39:17 GMT
References: <9111150537.AA05761@sumax.seattleu.edu>
Sender: dae...@cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Gatewayed from the GNU Project mailing list
help-gnu-em...@prep.ai.mit.edu
Lines: 65
You've raised some good issues, which is helpful to me, since now
I know what I need to explain. Thanks.
You may notice that I withdrew the post after someone pointed out that
my post had cross-posted to the gnu.emacs.help newsgroup.
I'm on the mailing list, not the newsgroup, so I can't notice this
with my own sense. But thanks for doing this and thanks for telling
me.
I did this after reading in one of the emacs newsgroups
your post suggesting that some bookstores carried them and that we
should ask for them. That in itself surprised and confused me,
because I didn't see how that fit with my admittedly imperfect
understanding of the gnu manifesto.
Unfortunately, the word "free" has two meanings in English. One is
"zero price" and one is "with liberty". This ambiguity has caused
lots of confusion about what the GNU project is working for.
The GNU project is concerned with liberty, not price. The GNU manuals
and software provide the user with the liberty to copy and change
them. Anyone is welcome to sell copies for any price. When you read
"free software", think of "free speech" and "free assembly", not "free
beer".
So there's no problem with bookstores buying or printing GNU manuals
and selling them, and it's ok if they make a profit doing so. The FSF
does this, so it has to be ok for other people to do this. You could
do this too.
I understand you to be saying that the authors have chosen to use
their documentation for their own profit rather than distribute it
freely.
No, what I'm saying is something else, and the distinction is
important. What makes me unhappy is that they don't let people copy
and change the book: the information is not free. For example, I wish
we could put the source on prep and on our tapes. I wish you and
everyone else could receive a copy along with your copy of Emacs.
I don't mind that they sell individual copies (paper or on-line) for
money. If they had given the community the freedom to share this new
manual, then I would wish them success in collecting money by selling
physical examples. The FSF has had success this way, so I expect
other people could.
This is the part I find confusing and I guess I just need to do my
homework better. If the documentation is not keeping up with the
software, what can we who want to LEARN do?
You can use the Emacs tutorial (type C-h t) and read the Emacs Manual
(either on line or by printing a copy or by buying a nicely printed
copy from the FSF). This is a lot better than nothing.
If this documentation leaves some topic uncertain, you can try an
experiment and see what Emacs really does. (That is more
authoritative than any manual.) Then you can send a bug report to
bug-gnu-em...@prep.ai.mit.edu describing what was unclear, so we can
make the next edition clearer.
This may not be perfect, but please think of the long term. If we
encourage people who write more documentation to make it proprietary
instead of sharing it, we will have less free documentation in the
future.