From: po...@kumr.lns.com (Tim Pozar)
Subject: FidoNet Newsletter, Volume 9, # 46
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:44:38 GMT
Organization: Late Night Software (San Francisco)
F I D O N E W S -- | Vol. 9 No. 46 (16 November 1992)
A newsletter of the |
FidoNet BBS community | Published by:
/ \ | "FidoNews" BBS
/|oo \ | +1-415-863-2739
(_| /_) | 1:1/1@FidoNet
_`@/_ \ _ | edi...@fidonews.fidonet.org
| | \ \\ |
| (*) | \ )) | Editors:
|__U__| / \// | Tom Jennings
_//|| _\ / | Tim Pozar
(jm) | Newspapers should have no friends.
| -- JOSEPH PULITZER
For information, copyrights, article submissions, obtaining copies and
so on, please refer to the end of this file.
Table of Contents
1. EDITORIAL ..................................................... 1
Editorial: slog ............................................... 1
2. ARTICLES ...................................................... 3
ALCOR BBS Email privacy case settled .......................... 3
GOFER: A New Way To FREQ Out .................................. 4
Privacy... Does it belong in FidoNet? ......................... 6
Hackers Conference Report ..................................... 9
Notice from the nodelist ...................................... 12
Open letter from a ZC ......................................... 13
URUGUAYAN OPINION ABOUT URUGUAY ............................... 15
Apologies ..................................................... 17
An Invitation ................................................. 17
3. FIDONEWS INFORMATION .......................................... 25
FidoNews 9-46 Page 1 16 Nov 1992
by Tom Jennings (1:1/1)
Another brief editorial. Some decent articles this week. Few
complaints, flames, problems, etc lately. Hmm. Am I losing my touch?
Small problem: come this January, a Terrible Thing will unfold. Check
out the name of the file you are reading: FNEWS946. 9 is the volume
number (years of publication), 46 the issue number in the current
year. FNEWS is five characters. MSDOS allows 8. Guess what. Volume 10
issue #1 will not be FNEWS1001. What will it be? Damifino. I'll think
of something. Two major choices are changing FNEWS to something else
(FNEWS, etc) or using letters for the volume number (A - Z; base 36
allows us to palm the problem off onto our children in standard
fashion). I favor the latter, because it's so nerdy to use non-decimal
digits. Consider this a contest. (Thanks to a forward thinking sysop
to remind me of this upcoming catastrophe.)
SURPRISE! A new Z1C! With no notice. A complete secret. Sorry,
notification via the dreck in the nodelist file doesn't count. (I
distinctly remember asking if the generator of that information could
supply it to FidoNews. Does this let me off the hook for not seeking
Well, all is not lost. They're looking for a temporary replacement,
until 13 people out of 10,000 in North America pick a new fearless
leader "for you", next April? I think.
Time to consider ahem appeals to this "process". Writing letters to
your alleged representatives is generlaly effective, and moreso in
email-land, where a few thousand letters can be delivered in seconds.
Maybe a constant deluge of comments, suggestions, nominations, ideas,
constructive complaints, etc to all involved in this process (hell,
there's only a dozen of them!) will have some effect. Consider the
effectiveness of locally organized responses. Consider this for the
future as well. I certainly will.
I'll soon generate a hack that yanks the gunk out of the nodelist
after my routine diff processing, and generates an "article" for
FidoNews, that I will include if it "looks interesting". Then at least
we'll have a bit of notice on this sort of thing.
FidoNews 9-46 Page 2 16 Nov 1992
I swear, this is the last of the Z4C war stuff. No one seems
interested in talking to each other anyways. Let's hope it all dies
FidoNews 9-46 Page 3 16 Nov 1992
The long running Alcor/email case against the County and City of
Riverside, CA was settled out of court in April of this year. The
announcement was delayed until all parties had signed off, and the
check (for $30k) had cleared the bank :-).
The Alcor Life Extension Foundation (a non-profit cryonics
organization --al...@cup.portal.com) ran a BBS for members and
prospective members from early 1987 through January 12, 1988. On that
day, the BBS computer was removed under a warrant to take the computer
(but no mention of any contained email) in connection with the
investigation into the death of 83-year-old Dora Kent. (Mrs. Kent was
placed into cryonic suspension by Alcor in December of 1987. During
and following the investigation, Alcor staff members were publicly
accused by county officials of murder, theft, and building code
violations. No charges were ever filed and the investigation was
officially closed three years later.)
In December of 1988 Keith Henson filed a civil suit to force an
investigation of the apparent violations of the Electronic
Communication Privacy Act by the FBI, but the case was dismissed by
the now convicted Judge Aguilar.
In early 1990, just before the statute of limitations ran out, Henson
and 14 others (of the roughly 50 people who had email on the system)
filed a civil action against a number of officials and the County and
City of Riverside, CA under Section 2707 of the Electronic
Communication Privacy Act.
Some time after the case was filed, the Electronic Frontier Foundation
came into existence in response to law enforcement abuses involving a
wide spectrum of the online community. EFF considered this case an
important one, and helped the plaintiffs in the case by locating pro
bono legal help. While the case was being transferred, the County and
City offered a settlement which was close to the maximum damages which
could have been obtained at trial. Although no precedent was set
because the case did not go to trial, considerable legal research has
been done, and one judgment issued in response to the Defendants'
Motion to Dismiss. The legal filings and the responses they generated
from the law firm representing the County/City and officials are
available by email from mnem...@eff.org or (with delay) from
hkhe...@cup.portal.com. (They are also posted on Portal.)
The Plaintiffs were represented by Christopher Ashworth of Garfield,
Tepper, Ashworth and Epstein in Los Angeles (408-277-1981). A summary
of the settlement agreement is attached.
FidoNews 9-46 Page 4 16 Nov 1992
This agreement is made and entered into in Riverside, California,
this _____ day of ______ by and between [long list of defendants and
1. This Agreement is executed with reference to the following
facts for purpose of this Agreement only.
2. On January 12, 1998, some of the Defendants, pursuant to a
search warrant, entered into the premises of Alcor Life Extension
Foundation in Riverside, California.
3. Upon entry into the property, some of the Defendants seized
various items, including electronic media containing E-mail owned by
4. On or about January 11, 1990, plaintiffs commenced civil
action No. SAC 90-021js in the United States District Court, Santa
Ana ("the Action"), against the defendants for injuries and damages
allegedly suffered as a result of the defendants' seizure of
5 It is now the desire and intention of plaintiffs, on the one
part, and defendants on the other part, to settle, compromise, and
resolve all the differences, disagreements, and disputes, which exist
and may exist, including those which are the subject matter of,
referred to, related to, or mentioned in the Action. Pursuant to this
desire, and in consideration of the mutual promises contained herein,
the parties agree as follows.
6. Upon the execution of this Agreement, defendants County of
Riverside shall pay to plaintiffs, by check, the total sum of Thirty
Thousand Dollars ($30,000), inclusive of attorney fees and cost.
7. [The rest of this is boilerplate, except that they wanted
confidentiality of the agreement, to which we would not agree.]
GOFER: A New Way To FREQ Out
by Bill Auclair
FidoNews 9-46 Page 5 16 Nov 1992
This article announces the release of the GOFER Distributed File
Request Utility, the finest program ever designed for creation,
processing and relay of Distributed File Requests, or "DFREQs". At
this point, you're probably scratching your head, wondering what GOFER
is, what it does, and what good it will do you...
Well, if you're interested in an easy way of adding the files -YOUR
USERS WANT- to your file collection, take a look at GOFER. If you're
looking to increase the number of callers to your BBS, GOFER can help.
If you run a BBS with limited file capacity, but still want to offer a
-HUGE- requestable file selection to your users, you CAN do it-- just
The GOFER programs are designed to allow both sysops and users to
make file requests (FREQs) from other BBS systems listed in the
FidoNet nodelist. There are several major differences between GOFER's
Distributed File Request methodology (hereafter referred to as DFREQ)
and existing FidoNet FREQ and/or file distribution formats.
FidoNet file request technology was designed only for the direct
transmittal of file requests from one system to another. DFREQ
technology allows routing of file requests from the originating system
along a user-configurable "chain" of systems, ending at the target
node. This methodology allows the setup of no-cost, local routing
paths for file requests between distant systems that would normally
incur long-distance phone charges.
File distribution systems such as TICK operate on a "subscription"
principle, where files in selected topic areas are introduced
("hatched") at an initial node and then distributed to all systems in
the topology, using predefined subscription lists maintained by each
subscribing node. GOFER allows the flexibility of being able to
distribute ANY file(s) to ANY ONE system at ANY time, without needing
to reference predefined subscription lists, and without saddling other
system operators with files they don't want or need. When using
DFREQs, the only thing that needs to be determined in advance is how
requested files and DFREQ information will be routed between
participating GOFER systems. This routing information can be agreed
upon by correspondence between participating systems in a manner
similar to that used for setting up routed Netmail messages. Once
routings are configured, they rarely need to be changed.
Several "file request database" programs are currently enjoying
popularity among FidoNet system operators. Most of these programs are
simple FREQ doors that build databases of available files from
participating systems, allowing sysops and users to access this
information and request files. All past, current and pending FREQ
transaction information is maintained in data files on the originating
system. These files are updated if and when requested files are
received. Most of these doors are designed for direct file requests
between two systems, and are not set up to route between intermediate
FidoNews 9-46 Page 6 16 Nov 1992
The main difference between these ordinary FREQ doors and the GOFER
system is one of decreased maintenance. Using GOFER methodology, the
DFREQ transaction information travels -with- requested files, instead
of being maintained at the originating system. This eliminates the
burden of maintaining large, elaborate transaction files at each node,
and performing periodic updates on these files.
The GOFER program archive is available for FREQ (and soon for DFREQ,
once we get distribution going) from 1:141/545, using the magic name
A summary of discussions concerning privacy...
GK Pace @ 1:374/26
There has been a considerable amount of discussion on the subject
of privacy in FidoNet, especially as concerns the use of encryption
and the routing of files which have been encrypted. This article is
not intended to be biased towards one direction or another, but rather
to summarize the main arguments being made in the discussions. Altho
I personally tend to favor the use of encryption for certain purposes,
my objective is to distill the (hopefully) significant concerns for
and against so that there might be a better understanding on the part
of BOTH sides. The ultimate purpose is of course the goal of coming
together (compromising) to the end that solutions to the questions are
found, and answers to the problems are obtained, enabling an agreement
which may be acceptable to all, for which I've offered some
The issue it seems can be simply stated as whether or not encrypted
traffic should be "routed" thru Fidonet.
There are various themes, and angles being discussed, such as
whether or not it should be acceptable to route such traffic thru a
host, echomail link, or simply not allowed to be sent any manner other
than direct. There are also arguments being made for allowing
"signed" messages, which are not readable text, but none the less can
be read by anyone using PGP, and are not "encrypted" in a manner
preventing anyone from reading them, anymore than a Zip or Arc file
prevents someone from reading or using files.
Those who argue against the routing encrypted mail thru Fidonet
quote Policy 4, which contains wording that infers that such mail is
annoying since it prevents Sysops from having the ability to verify
that the mail does not violate any of their policies on what they will
The principal argument for this stand is the issue of LIABILITY over
the mail that passes thru ones system. This is of course a valid
concern that everyone operating a node should be concerned with, but
it is also an issue for which there are not any clear answers. There
have been a few cases occur which have given Sysops examples upon
which to base opinions as to what the potential for liability could
be, unfortunately these cases do not directly apply to us, and the
FidoNews 9-46 Page 7 16 Nov 1992
opinions which can logically be derived vary. Sysops arguing on both
sides of the issue have quoted the same cases as reasons to base their
Those who are in favor of privacy in Fidonet are generally arguing
that privacy is a right we all should enjoy. Indeed we all expect
privacy in our lives, and most of us probably enjoy a comfortable
feeling that we actually have it to some degree. There are some
compelling arguments for privacy, and there are some serious threats
to our possession of it which should not be discounted. The
undeniable fact is that we cannot have personal privacy unless we are
willing to offer the same to others. Sysops enjoy a "higher" degree
of privacy, in that they can direct route messages... generally this
option is not offered to the users of our systems however, and it is
of itself only a higher class of service, that does not insure
As in any issue, there are those who are "passionate" to the point
of having difficulty seeing any viewpoint other than their own. Some
of these individuals are quick to demean anothers opinion, and apply
"destructive criticism" in the form of personal attacks on each others
character. By and large those who are engaged in this fashion of
dialog are doing little to bring up valid viewpoints for either side
of the issue. They are in fact hurting their respective sides of the
issue by creating a hostile atmosphere for the discussion of the
issues, and discouraging those who may have useful input from sharing
it. The "hot-headed" remarks may give someone a "lift" as they write
them... but they do more harm than good. Most of the significant
facts are simple... and should be obvious to all:
- Everyone runs their own system!
- No one can be forced to run their system in any particular manner.
- The "rules" by which we operate Fidonet are nothing more than the
"agreements" we accept to enable interfacing with each other.
- Those who provide the SERVICES... the *Cs' are volunteers. They
may ACCEPT the responsibilities, but they voluntarily do so.
Those who insist upon trying to "force" the issue in any particular
direction are simply missing the whole point of what we do here, and
their activities could easily be construed as annoying. The best
advise we can all accept has been quoted many times, and accepted as
law by most of us: Be not annoying... be not easily annoyed!
The issues for which solutions should be actively sought, are those
for which the answers are not clearly defined. Arguing over the
importance of privacy, with someone who is arguing that they are
concerned about liability is moot... you cannot "get together" until
you start considering each others concerns, and providing answers, or
at least perspectives on those concerns...
FidoNews 9-46 Page 8 16 Nov 1992
So lets work on getting the answers!
We have within Fidonet resources of every type. Our legal
resources are not to be discounted. Despite the lack of clearly
defined court cases upon which to base legal opinions, there are
principals upon which our legal experts can base opinions... We
should be encouraging THEM to assist us in determining what the
potential liabilities are, how we can best protect ourselves, not only
as concerns the issue of whether or not privacy should be given a
valid place in Fidonet, but on many other aspects of how we should
operate our systems to protect ourselves, and each other.
I have seen several Lawyers post messages, but they don't seem to
anxious to join in the "fray" that is occurring... perhaps it is due in
part to the quantity of "counter-productive" remarks that occur... I
have also noticed that some do not mention that they are lawyers...
again perhaps this might be due to the criticism which seems to be
If a little bit of respect was given, for those who have made a
career out of being a Lawyer and offer to take the time to study an
issue and offer educated opinions on it, those with this ability might
be more forth coming...
Presently there are discussions concerning privacy and liability
occurring in many echo conferences. There has been a great deal of
valuable information communicated in the PUBLIC KEYS echo as of late,
(on both sides of the issue) as well as several Sysop conferences.
There is also another conference; BBSLAW which has a great deal of
potential, but which is not enjoying much traffic at present.
The legal issues should be discussed in the BBSLAW echo. There are
Lawyers participating in the conversations occurring there, who are
acknowledging themselves as such, and who are donating their time for
the study and discussion of the legal issues of running a BBS, and the
Fidonet. This echo could use the support of all Sysops who have a
genuine concern for becoming more knowledgeable of the issues and
procedures we can take to limit our exposure to legal problems.
The Sysop conferences, and the Technical conferences such as Public
Keys will continue to be important places for such discussions,
however they are rightfully concerned with many other issues, and tend
to dilute the constructive legal input we could otherwise be
In summary, what I'm calling for is more concern on the part of all
who are interested in this issue, in efforts towards solutions of the
controversies. Lets try an be more concerned with LEARNING, and less
concerned with flaming...
FidoNews 9-46 Page 9 16 Nov 1992
Lets support the efforts of those who have formed the BBSLAW echo,
and insure that this conference becomes the useful tool for us that it
has the potential for.
Lets practise the ancient Fidonet proverb:
Do not engage in annoying behavior... and do not be easily annoyed.
Diversity in opinions, systems, and the many differences contributed
by each of the Sysops who collectively make up the Fidonet is the
source of the strength of Fidonet... by being a little more tolerant
of anothers opinion, by being a little more willing to consider
anothers viewpoint, the strength of Fidonet can be magnified many
times... and each of us can benefit substantially!
From: tc...@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Here's a trip report I just sent to another mailing list I'm active
on, the "Extropians" list. That's why I "introduce" Tom Jennings, John
Gilmore, and Eric Hughes...clearly they need no introduction to
readers of _this_ list (although a lot of new folks have signed up
recently, I hear).
By the way, I just picked up the latest "Mondo 2000." Our own Jude
Milhon's article, "The Cypherpunk Movement," is on pp. 36-37 (Issue
#8). The address "cyphe...@toad.com" is mentioned, so we may get
even more new folks. Also some good stuff on MindVOX, phreaking, etc.
HACKERS CONFERENCE REPORT
I just returned from Hackers 8.0, held 6-8 November in Lake Tahoe,
California. Approximately 170 attendees this year.
* Our crypto session went extremely well. The talks were on PGP and
FidoNet, Diffie-Hellman key exchange for rlogin, digital
time-stamping, and anonymous remailers. More comments later.
* Mike Godwin of the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) spoke on the
developing conflict between personal privacy and law enforcement,
including comments on the "key registration" trial balloon I posted
about earlier. (Godwin told me he believes the Denning proposal is
deadly serious, that the Department of Justice has put a high priority
on limiting the use of cryptography.)
FidoNews 9-46 Page 10 16 Nov 1992
* Hacking was well represented. Besides our crypto panel, sessions on
cellular phone phreaking and illegal mods to telecom equipment drew
large crowds (a "how to" talk on reprogramming the 8051 micro in the
Oki 900 cellphone was especially useful).
* Eric Drexler gave a talk on nanotechnology (surprise!), with an
emphasis on needed work in the next couple of years. Drexler argued
that proto-assemblers could be built in as short as 16 years, though
there was some skepticism expressed. He also presented a calculation
that the "cost" of delaying nanotech is $25 billion a _day_. (I
suggested we all skip dinner that night and instead put in another
hour in the labs!)
* Marvin Minsky answered questions, saying he rarely prepares in
advance. AI, robotics, gene expression in embryos, and software were
* Allan Huang of AT&T gave an energetic 90 minute talk on optical
computing, going from optical deconvolvers to "computer origami" to
optical switches to Sagnac fibers that can store light pulses 6
femtoseconds long! Definitely the most stimulating talk.
* Demos in the machine room were better than ever. The "Reality
Engine" from Silicon Graphics displayed photorealistic simulations.
Lots of Suns, NeXTs, and Macs. Films of SIGGRAPH papers, chaos and
fractals, and artificial life were shown at night. Rudy Rucker's
session on cellular automata went well.
MORE ON CRYPTO
Since cryptology and the activities of the "cypherpunks" mailing list
are of central concern to me, I'll concentrate on those topics.
Our panel was in "prime time," mid-Saturday afternoon, with about 100
in attendance, including a couple of journalists (notably John Markoff
of the "New York Times"...if anybody sees an article on this by him,
please send me a note about it, OK?). The audience had been prepped
for crypto by the comments Friday night by Mike Godwin of the EFF and
by a 3 hour rump session on "Digital Cash" from 1 a.m. to 4 a.m on
Saturday (remember "hacker hours").
Tom Jennings, one of the chief forces behind FidoNet, an "anarchic"
net made up of PCs talking to other PCs, spoke on efforts to spread
PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) to as many FidoNet users as possible. It
looks like its happening and this will be another avenue to ensure
that the "crypto genie" gets safely out of the bottle.
John Gilmore, an early UNIX/Sun pioneer and current principal at
Cygnus Support, amongst other things, spoke on increasing security
against Internet eavesdroppers by using the Diffie-Hellman key
exchange protocol for rlogin (for example). This is something we can
do fairly soon.
FidoNews 9-46 Page 11 16 Nov 1992
Stu Haber and Scott Stornetta of Bellcore (formerly part of Bell Labs)
reported on their digital time-stamping system. Some document to be
"notarized" is hashed to produce a fairly short number which is hard
to forge (i.e., it is very hard to find another document which hashes
to the same value). This hash value is then published in, say, a
widely read newspaper. If a dispute arises about the time a document
was written, the published has value is persuasive. Bellcore actually
operates such a service (check the legal notices in the Sunday "New
Eric Hughes, a mathematician who worked briefly for David Chaum's
"DigiCash" outfit, described anonymous remailers implemented in Perl
and now running. He also mentioned Hal Finney's version which embeds
PGP in the remailer, allowing more security. This generated a lot of
excitement, as the ideas of "crypto anarchy" became apparent to all.
(John Little, owner and operator of the "Portal Communications
Company," a Bay Area-based Internet access service, got excited and
offered to run the remailers on his system! The genie is further out
of the bottle. Now if we can only get GEnie to do the same!)
The spirit of contributing to the larger cause of using crypto to
_directly_ protect privacy was exhilarating. More people spoke of
actual code they plan to write (as with Russell Whittaker's offer a
few weeks ago to help with ProComm mods).
There was a real sense that Things Had Changed. With PGP 2.0 arriving
a few months ago (and still spreading), with the onset of the
"Cypherpunks" group (which got a somehat cryptic write-up by Jude
Milhon in the just-published Issue #8 of "Mondo 2000"...but since she
coined the term "cypherpunks" to describe us, her article can afford
to be cryptic, no?), and with the "Hacker Crackdown" all around us
(Sun Devil, Legion of Doom, S.266 attempt to ban encryption, FBI's
"Digital Telephony Bill," and the latest "trial balloon" to register
keys), the time is right.
In the next several months I expect the media, via more articles in
magazines like "Mondo 2000" and by articles on crypto policy, to focus
in on this issue. Even the "Village Voice" is interested in crypto issues
(theme: crypto privacy vs. Big Brother).
These are exciting times. If I'm ever busted for sedition, money
laundering conspiracy, violation of the Munitions Act, RICO Act
violations, or just plain old political incorrectness, carry on the
fight. The stakes are high.
Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tc...@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^756839 | PGP Public Key: awaiting Macintosh version.
FidoNews 9-46 Page 12 16 Nov 1992
;S NOTICE -- NOTICE -- NOTICE -- NOTICE -- NOTICE -- NOTICE -- NOTICE
;S | Wanted: Temporary Z1Coordinator, from now until 5/93.
;S | Qualifications: Must be a current or past RC.
;S | Compensation: Compile the nodediff weekly, correspond with
;S | many fine FidoNet sysops daily.
;S | Send your resume to: Don Dawson, 1:141/730 by 11/7/92
;S | To be filled by: 11/21/92
;S | Coming in May, 1993: Permanent Z1Coordinator
;S | The successful candidate will be selected by ballot of the 10
;S | Don Dawson
;S | --------------------------------------------
;S | I am not able to complete my current 1 year term as Z1C.
;S | I've asked the zone 1 RCs to select someone to fill in
;S | until next May when my term would have ended. The
;S | selection isn't going to be an elaborate or complicated
;S | ordeal. All current and past FidoNet zone 1 region
;S | coordinators are eligible and if interested should contact
;S | Don Dawson at 1:141/730 to be considered. I've asked Don
;S | and the other RCs to replace me by 26 November. Don will
;S | soon have details available about dates and procedures.
;S | Why am I leaving the zc position? There's not just one
;S | reason. I'll spare you the boring speech.
;S | I've enjoyed my stint as zc and feel privileged to have
;S | served among all of you in that capacity. I'm not
;S | disappearing. I'm just passing the zc baton to the next
;S | runner. I hope you'll all give that person the same
;S | courtesy, kindness, and tolerance you've given me for
;S | the past 2+ years.
;S | George Peace
;S You can request the most recent nodelist/nodediff from your Network
;S or Region Coordinator. They are usually available with the "magic name"
;S of NODELIST or NODEDIFF.
;S Please check the END of the nodelist for additional technical
FidoNews 9-46 Page 13 16 Nov 1992
Gamey Garcia Varela
Dear Tom Jennings and Colleagues:
Hi, amigos! This is the first time I write an article in
FidoNews, and I wish it was under better circumstances or about a
nicer topic. The truth is that I tend to be quite reserved in my
thoughts, and at this point I am writing because I believe we have
got to a point of no return in which it is necessary for me to say
what I know.
I am a very busy person and try to put as many hours into
FidoNet as I can, but sometimes not as much as I want. Since the
day I was asked to be in charge of the zone coordinator functions,
my leisure time in FidoNet has been reduced and therefore I have
stopped reading FidoNews. However, this week another sysop here in
net 970 asked me to read the last one, and I cannot help but write
an open letter examining a huge article I found there, authored by
Clovis Lacerda from Brazil.
First of all, I am not pleased that a regional issue has
been brought up to worldwide attention, not because we are trying
to cover it up in any way, but because most of the rest of the
world does not have all the accurate information to make an
objective inference. But what is more troublesome is that in all
those pages, there is not a single reference to proven facts and
there are many comments that are plain lies.
Since the day in which Gustavo Zacarias was no longer ZC
here in zone 4, I have been in charge of the duties of the ZC. I am
not a bit pleased with this, but rather disappointed; I took charge
at the request of all the other RC's, including Clovis Lacerda, and
not because I wanted to nor offered to. During this time, I have
been forced to deal with a lot of politics and I am not accustomed
to that nor like it. I have in fact avoided all political
discussions (any zone 4 sysop will vow for that), and in the two
attempts I made to have new elections and have someone else be in
charge I was asked by at least 50% of the RC's to back up and stay
a little longer because they felt the conditions were not ideal to
have a new ZC. So here I am, bored as hell and dealing with
MakeNL's sometimes unpredictable behavior.
Of these political situations, some of them nasty
political situations I was confronted with, I'd say 20% were
related to the zonegates and 80% to Mr. Clovis Lacerda. The
zonegates issue originated in the zone 1 gate not delivering
anything to zone 4 for months, and now seems solved. The problem
with Clovis Lacerda originates in his blind ambition to become ZC,
FidoNews 9-46 Page 14 16 Nov 1992
and his lack of patience for eventually arriving to that situation.
I have effectively avoided having a discussion with anyone in
either problem, by just requesting politely several times for the
problem to be fixed in the zonegate matter and by just not replying
to Clovis Lacerda's constant aggressions.
The situation in zone 4 is good with all regions except
region 80. I have a friendly relationship with all the remaining
RC's, and we do all the technical management more or less
flawlessly. The differences with region 80 are several: first, for
3 months Clovis Lacerda did not send a region nodelist update to
me. He argued that he could not get through, although in messages
forwarded to me by sysops in his region he was publicly saying that
he did not *want* to have any contact with me or the rest of the
zone. Recently, as he *decided* to resume ties with us, he has
found a way to get the segments here. Then comes the issue of
insulting: Mr. Lacerda has called me several different names, most
remarkably "imbecile" in public echomail messages in Brazil, that
he did not intend for outside distribution but were net-forwarded
to me. I must point out that I never had a discussion with Mr.
Lacerda either before each of his remarks or after. I do not care
to descend to such a poor level of dialogue: this is my hobby and
I'm trying to do the best I can to help, not create some
unnecessary stress to myself and the rest! But I did not and do not
deserve to be insulted without a reason.
Another thing I would like to mention is my outrage for
the attacks he directed towards Pablo Kleinman. Mr. Kleinman, whom
I electronically met when he was ZC and I was the first node in
Mexico, has always been very cooperative, sometimes more than me or
anyone else would have expected. During the past year, he has
helped our region here in Mexico (he is 1 of the 2 echomail feeds
we have from zone 1), and he has been helping several other regions
in my zone, like Chile, Panama, Argentina and Peru. He even helped
me feed LATIN.SYSOP, our zone sysop echo, to Brazil when Mr.
Lacerda decided to cut his region off and leave it isolated.
I have not met Pablo Kleinman in person so far, but I
have dealt with him here in FidoNet through net-mail for a long
time. I must publicly denounce all the things Clovis Lacerda has
said about Pablo's role in our zone as absolutely false and
defamatory. Pablo Kleinman is someone that has done a lot for zone
4 and he deserves credit and praise, not insults. Lacerdas's
suggestion that I am his "puppet a short bus ride from Los Angeles"
is personally insulting and completely false (by the way, I am in
central Mexico, which is very far from the U.S. and more expensive
to call from the U.S. than other places like Australia, Europe, or
Brazil, courtesy of Telmex and AT&T).
The main problem here is not Pablo Kleinman, or the rest
of zone 4 whom Clovis Lacerda recently called "scumbags", and it is
not me either. The problem is not region 80 or the Brazilian
sysops, some of whom seem to be very nice and friendly people. The
problem here is Clovis Lacerda and his ambition to become zone
coordinator no matter what or how. I have discussed this issue with
my region coordinator Arturo Garza Miranda and the rest here in
FidoNews 9-46 Page 15 16 Nov 1992
Mexico, and we are not willing to put up with that. Other sysops in
the rest of Latin America have agreed with us.
I am a technical person, and not a politician. I do not
understand politics and here in Mexico we have a very clear and not
very favorable idea of what politics entail, based on our
experience. I have had many technical reasons already to remove
Clovis Lacerda from the RC position (I did not do so because I do
not want to interfere in other region's matters), or even his
region due to the RC's irresponsible behavior of not sending the
updates. I have been very understanding and patient, and I do not
plan to change that. Yet, I will not accept articles like Clovis
Lacerda's in last week's FidoNews to go unchallenged. There are no
truths in Clovis Lacerda's article and I find his behavior to be
terribly uncandid and deceitful.
I hope this message clarifies a little the discussion
started last week. Friendly greetings to everyone from Guadalajara:
"the pearl of the west", in the state of Jalisco, Mexico.
Gamey Garcia - ZC4
URUGUAYAN OPINION ABOUT URUGUAY
From: jot...@chasque.apc.org (Juan Carlos Alonso)
There has been a lot of talk about the removal of Region 85
(Uruguay) from the Nodelist. Pablo Kleinman 1:102/631, Jordi Murgo
2:343/401 and Billy Coen 4:90/0 explained our situation and
justified our removal from the Nodelist in the 11/09/92 issue of
I would like to explain our situation briefly since we are the
ones directly involved in the problem. Our Region formerly
routed all its mail through Hector Gomez, ex-4:900/130. This
included NetMail and EchoMail (LATIN.SYSOP). Suddenly he went
down, so we tried to send our packets through ex-ZC4 Gustavo
Zacarias, but he also went down.
I noticed that our new ZC4 was Gamey Garcia, so I sent him our
Region DIFF via Internet. I followed this up with several mails,
but never received an answer. I figured that our ZC should know
perfectly well how to route mail through Fidonet to Internet
FidoNews 9-46 Page 16 16 Nov 1992
Since I received no answer, I attempted to contact Clovis
Lacerda, RC80 (I think). However, it is difficult to get through
to Brazilian phones from Uruguay. At the present time we are
trying to move our mail with the help of Randy Bush 1:105/42.
I'm grateful to everyone that is trying to help us to return
into the FidoNet comunity and, if possible, I would like to
know the names of the SysOps in Argentina that are helping us so
I can thank them personally.
The situation in our country is very difficult. International
calls are extremely expensive. There are only a few Fidonet
SysOps to share the cost. In spite of this we are working hard
trying to incorporate more nodes in our Region, (soon we hope to
have a new Host in the northern part of the Uruguay with the
IEEE people) and trying to link the BBS who are using
Fido-Compatible systems. We are doing things the best we can
and we need everyone's help.
We don't know exactly what the situation in our Zone is. We
don't know why so many unpleasant things have happened, why
there are internal wars, and why so many systems in our Zone
have disappeared (including our Region!). We don't know what
personal interests have led to this mess and we don't care! The
one thing we do want is to request that everyone PLEASE STOP THE
WAR! I can't quote chapter and verse of Policy4, but I know that
it's designed for a community where everyone's rights are
Our prime goal is to move our mail as best we can, to have
contact with as many people as possible, and that the
relationships be as pleasant as possible. We trust that FidoNet
is the best vehicle to communicate and lend a hand to the people
who needs us. We hope that the number of systems increases as
time goes by.
Just in case, I would like to add that I have no desire to be
ZC4 nor the most important person in FidoNet, and even less a
stumbling block to an International link like FidoNet. The only
thing we want is to connect everyone. Please, help us do it.
Greetings and thanks !
Juan Carlos Alonso
FidoNews 9-46 Page 17 16 Nov 1992
Hollywood, CA, USA
I'M SORRY. I was re-reading my input on last week's FidoNews, and
after discussing it with another cool dude in Canada, it was
obvious to me that the reference I made of a group of "fanatics" as
"Shiites" was a cheap shot and a violation of my own personal
I've been for too long in the "kitchen" and the heat has become
unbearable. Hence, I've forgotten to use good old Felix Kasza's
"flame filter techniques" when I should have.
If any Muslims felt offended while reading last week's snooze,
please accept my apologies. And to those that are not Muslim but
hardcore antiracists like me, I wish to make amends too for the
Finally, to those who have no clue of what this all is about, never
mind. I won't recommend you to go and read a verbal display of more
dirty laundry just to find the noted comment. <blush>
by: Tomas Hood
ICDM ZC, 1:352/777 (77:77/0)
NOTICE: INVITATION TO CARRY ICDMnet
After the great response we had since last June when we invited
you here in FidoNews, we thought, once again, to let you know
The ICDMnet is a network offered to any BBS, regardless of whether
or not the Sysop is a Christian, or the board catering to
Christians. It is a network open to all people.
WHAT IS THE NETWORK?
The ICDMnet is an extension of the International Christian
Discipleship Ministries. This ministry exists as an outreach to
the world, bringing Good News to all nations, and as an outreach
to the international church of the Lord Jesus Christ, working to
build it up into perfection and to bond the saints together
through love. The ICDMnet is dedicated to discipleship in its
truest form, through the media of the electronic/computerized
FidoNews 9-46 Page 18 16 Nov 1992
communication between people from all countries and walks of life.
This is a specialized network. It deals with discipleship issues
such as Biblical Counseling, practical and responsible
relationships, and the responsibility of the physical Body of
Christ to the world in which it lives.
Pragmatically, this network of participants is involved in two
aspects of practical spirituality. The first aspect being the
individual in the setting of the world; what is life about? How
does the individual function in this world and relate to those
around? The second aspect is the community of individuals; the
Corporate Body of Believers. How does the Church relate to the
world? What role and purpose does the Church serve?
In the study of these things, the participants deal with topics of
world religions (Gnosticism, New Age Thought, Eastern Religions,
Indigenous Religions, etc.), Church history, discipleship in a
modern world, and other essential topics. The network
unhesitatingly exposes damaging yet subtle trends that cripple
and destroy the Church, and the failure of the modern "Church" in
accomplishing the commission of the Lord Jesus Christ.
In the midst of all of these ongoing discussions, the network
fosters the working out of relationships that cause maturity and
fruit in each participant's life. The motivation which drives the
network forward is that the Gospel is relational. Truth,
delivered and founded in love, and expressed within a framework of
relationships, will set people free.
Within the ICDMnet, the participant finds conferences that
challenge disciples of Christ into a deeper, committed walk with
the Lord and with each other, as well as conferences that answer
the seeker's questions, regardless of how hard the query may be to
those participating. The ICDMnet is designed in such a way as to
allow for an open dialog on issues, without attacking and damaging
people. What does it mean to love and forgive those who abuse us?
What does it mean to turn the other cheek? What does it mean to
build solid relationships with our spouse or with those in the
Church or neighborhood? What is forgiveness? How do we relate
The ICDMnet is a voluntary network of interested Fido Compatible
BBS's, the sysops of which have decided to carry the echoes and
files of the ICDM. The conferences are split into three
1) Conferences existing for ANY participant, regardless of Faith,
Creed, Color, etc., to share his/her beliefs in the context
of relationship. Why does the participant believe such-and-
such? What are the driving desires and the underlying needs
FidoNews 9-46 Page 19 16 Nov 1992
that give reason to the participant's spiritual walk?
These areas allows ANY participant to freely and with tact
share his/her life with others. They are allowed to differ in
faith, and to expose what they feel is wrong in other's
beliefs, so long as it is done in an open, free way, not an
aggressive, attacking manner. Indeed, this section of the
network is a specialized one, aimed at bridging cultures, and
enlightening participants on the faiths of others.
This section allows discussion of all the facts about any
subject presented. Truth will make itself known, and the
participant can deal with it on his or her own ground.
Therefore, a Mormon, J.W., Baha'i, or Muslim can participate
without being attacked hatefully by the others who are
participating. It is a collection of echoes that challenge
the participant into becoming real with each other and laying
One particular conference which falls into this category is a
cultural exchange conference, in which religion is mostly
"off-topic" and not allowed. It is designed in such a
way as to develop friendships between people from many
different cultures, countries, and views. This one conference
is sometimes the only one we can offer to such countries as
Egypt, and China.
2) Another set of Conferences exist for the Disciple of the Lord
Jesus Christ, to further his/her walk with God and to promote
REAL love for each other. The goal is real discipleship, in
the fullness of the Gospel. Relationships are built and
individuals held accountable. An extension of this is the
fostering of fellowship between whole congregations with other
groups throughout the world. This area of conferences are
deep and instructional, as well as truly relational. They
find a good balance between doctrine and "emotional" relating.
3) A small group of conferences exist for general fellowship,
entertainment, and specific needs. Desktop Publishing,
Christian Music, and other such conferences may fall into this
category. This group is experimental, since it does not fall
directly into the mission of the network as a whole.
The total package is open to any BBS, regardless of the Sysop's
Faith. As a SysOp and Owner of a BBS, you do not personally have
to subscribe to the faiths expressed in this Network. We are here
for your callers and members to your board. We feel that your
callers would benefit from that.
It is open to any board that is Fidonet compatible. It is
compiled as a separate Zone (77), so your software must be Zone
aware. The minimum transfer is at least once a week, your system
polling whomever you are set up with (The node nearest you, or
cheapest for you).
FidoNews 9-46 Page 20 16 Nov 1992
The IC is Tomas Hood, (1:352/777), a minister and the President of
the ICDM (International Christian Discipleship Ministries, a
nonprofit corporation in the State of Washington). All BBS's
become member nodes through an application process. Don't worry,
the application is informational only.
The countries that participate include the United States, Canada,
Australia, South Africa, Singapore, Switzerland, and others.
Arrangements can be made to link into your country, if you are not
within one of these.
====> NOTICE: <====
We are looking for any non-North American sysops who would like
this network on their board. We will work with sharing costs to
haul the messages into your country. Please netmail us at
1:352/777 for info on this.
The current echoes available (with the restrictions expressed) from the
Zone 77 Echo Coordinator are:
GROUP 0: (ADMINISTRATIVE)
!% ICDM_NET : The Admin (SysOp ONLY) Conference.
!% ICDM_REG? : the ? stands for the Region Number--this is a
Technical Hotline for each Region's Sysop.
GROUP 1: CULTURAL EXCHANGE GROUP
!* ICDMCEXG : ICDM: CULTURAL EXCHANGE -- A place to exchange
information about the differences of the
cultures represented in the echo. Culture is
!* ICDMCHAT : ICDM: CHAT -- A Pen-Pal ala Electronic mail
echo. Group and individual dialog.
* ICDM_WWN : ICDM: WORLD-WIDE NEWS AND SPECIAL EVENTS --
Allows participants to exchange news and views
about their area/country so that people around
the world can understand better the unique
situations in which we live.
* ICDM_SCX : ICDM: "SISTER-CITY-EXCHANGE" -- This is for
the exchange of messages between the city of
FidoNews 9-46 Page 21 16 Nov 1992
one country and it's sister city in another.
A sister city is a city in a foreign country
which has been adopted by your town to
exchange goodwill, etc.
* FINEARTS : Merged from a fido side: Non-Christian
(though dialog of art that relates Christian
themes is ok) dialog on the Fine Arts (poetry,
painting, dance, etc.)
This group is for inclusion in School systems, and countries where
religious proselytising is not allowed, but cultural exchanges
can occur. This is part of the service we offer to others as
part of our ministry.
GROUP 2: SPIRITUAL DIALOG AREAS
!# ICDMQSTN : ICDM: SIX QUESTIONS -- Discussion of life's
difficult questions. This is an area where
relational sharing goes on about core issues
of life. It allows for the sharing of many
# ICDMRTBL : ICDM: ROUND TABLE -- General Christian Chat
Conference. Pour the coffee and enjoy the
# ICDM_CAF : ICDM: CHRISTIAN ARTS FORUM -- includes CCM,
Comedy, writing, dance, paint, etc. All as a
dialog of how Christians proclaim their heart
# ICDM_SBC : ICDM: SCIENCE AND BIBLE CONFERENCE -- A dialog
on issues of science and how they relate to
scripture. Also on-topic are issues like the
ethics of science, limits of science, and
other important topics.
# ICDM_PLC : ICDM: CHRISTIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT & EMT SIG --
An international support echo for those that
work in Law Enforcement, Police, and EMT
services, about issues effecting them and a
place for fellowship. It is focused on
Christianity as it applies to their work.
# ICDM_DTP : ICDM: DESKTOP PUBLISHING SIG -- an exchange of
tips, trivia, excerpts, and other support
related info for those involved in Desk Top
Publishing. Those who create Church
FidoNews 9-46 Page 22 16 Nov 1992
Bulletins, Private Club Newsletters, etc., can
dialog about their problems and help with
others of like mind.
# ICDMPFCY : ICDM: FUTURE/PROPHECY/ESCHATOLOGY CONFERENCE --
A conference on prophecy as written in
Scripture (Bible) and its fulfillment.
This group is for an open dialog on topics of the spiritual
nature, intended to equip Christ's Disciples and educate all
peoples. Christian Special interest groups are also served in
this group of echoes, but as an experimental trial. If the
SIGS work properly within the focus of the ICDM, then we will
continue with this.
GROUP 3: BIBLICAL ECHOES -- ICDM SCHOOL OF DISCIPLESHIP
!& ICDMBRDG : ICDM: BRIDGES -- A study on cultural and
spiritual differences in an attempt to aid
disciples in understanding the many world
views, cultures, and backgrounds. It equips
the participant with information that will
help him/her communicate better with others.
!& ICDMDISC : ICDM: DISCIPLESHIP -- An educational echo to
teach and encourage the discipleship process
in the world. It is designed to aid in the
understanding of relationships through a model
of dealing with life's deepest problems from a
Biblical point-of-view. This is the base
conference upon which the whole network is
!& ICDMPRAY : ICDM: PRAYER -- A Prayer Ministry Conference.
A resource on prayer; how does one pray for
others, praise God, and function in
thanksgiving? This is also a prayer
request/praise report echo.
!& ICDMSTDY: : ICDM: BIBLICAL STUDIES CONFERENCE -- An
educational area for exegetical study of
Scripture focusing on how it applies to life
and relationships, and theological studies
covering the Early Church Fathers, Church
History, and other resources.
A relationally-based educational area designed to equip Christ's
disciples so that they can fulfill the commandments of loving
God and loving others, accomplishing the process of discipling
FidoNews 9-46 Page 23 16 Nov 1992
Key: ! - Mandatory to ALL NODES. SEE NOTE BELOW ABOUT
* - General Public Access -- No religious dialog allowed.
% - Sysop of a node in the Network, only, or moderators of
an ICDM Conference
# - Public access, but geared toward the Christian View of
things. Moderated in such a way as to steer people
into understanding each other, and to promote the
Biblical view of things.
& - Christian in scope. General Public has access, but, is
moderated heavily to keep the echoes on-topic and
within the bounds of the Biblical view of the topics
ALL REGIONAL CO-ORDINATOR SYSTEMS MUST CARRY ALL THE ABOVE ECHOES.
Individual nodes are required to carry the Administrative echoes
associated with the geographical area (two echoes max, sysop only
status). In addition, individual nodes are required to carry the
full GROUP THREE, in order to be accepted in the ICDMnet. If,
however, the individual node cannot carry religious echoes
(certain school systems, or foreign countries, such as Egypt),
then the mandatory group becomes GROUP ONE.
The rest of the echoes are optional, with a certain requirement.
If you choose one echo from GROUP TWO or GROUP ONE (assuming you
are a GROUP THREE node), you must carry the minimum required
echoes from that group, as shown above by the '!' symbol.
IT IS HIGHLY ENCOURAGED THAT INDIVIDUAL NODES CARRY ALL ECHOES, as
this is designed to maximize the ministry of this network. SIG
echoes are the least mandatory, along with the gated echoes,
FINEARTS and the ICDM_SCX.
If you want to become a member board, FREQ the Application, using
the MAJYK name of 'ICDM.' (Just the FOUR letters.. icdm). You
can get this from: the ICDM IHQ BBS, in the United States,
1-206-866-3621, V.32b/V.42b/HST 16.8K, Fido 1:352/777, or mail to
Tomas Hood (ZC)
Olympia WA 98507-2196 USA
If you are in contact with a regional host or network co-
ordinator, you may forward through that system your application.
REGIONS are set up to assign node addresses and to forward
applications for approval.
FidoNews 9-46 Page 24 16 Nov 1992
The ICDMnet requires that you are Multi-Zone aware if you are
running more than one network (i.e., Fidonet or Familynet, with
ICDMnet). ICDMnet is Zone 77.
Thank you for your time, money (for passing around this issue of
FidoNews), and consideration. We hope to hear from you!
(Tomas Hood is also the Moderator of the HERBS-N-SUCH echo, a
Fido Backbone echo featuring dialog about Herbs, from cooking
(Tomas Hood's bbs is also: 1:352/500, 8:2000/777,
FidoNews 9-46 Page 25 16 Nov 1992
------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ----------------
Editors: Tom Jennings, Tim Pozar
Editors Emeritii: Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince Perriello
BBS +1-415-863-2739, 300/1200/2400/V.32/HST
(Postal Service mailing address) (have patience)
c/o World Power Systems <---- don't forget this
CA 94107 USA
Published weekly by and for the members of the FidoNet international
amateur electronic mail system. It is a compilation of individual
articles contributed by their authors or their authorized agents. The
contribution of articles to this compilation does not diminish the
rights of the authors. Opinions expressed in these articles are those
of the authors and not necessarily those of FidoNews.
Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is
copyright 1992 Tom Jennings. All rights reserved. Duplication and/or
distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only. For use in
other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or FidoNews
OBTAINING COPIES: The-most-recent-issue-ONLY of FidoNews in electronic
form may be obtained from the FidoNews BBS via manual download or
Wazoo FileRequest, or from various sites in the FidoNet and Internet.
PRINTED COPIES may be obtained from Fido Software for $10.00US each
PostPaid First Class within North America, or $13.00US elsewhere,
mailed Air Mail. (US funds drawn upon a US bank only.)
BACK ISSUES: Available from FidoNet nodes 1:102/138, 1:216/21,
1:125/1212, 1:107/519.1 (and probably others), via filerequest or
download (consult a recent nodelist for phone numbers).
INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via FTP from ftp.ieee.org, in
directory ~ftp/pub/fidonet/fidonews. If you have questions regarding
FidoNet, please direct them to dei...@gisatl.fidonet.org, not the
FidoNews BBS. (Be kind and patient; David Deitch is generously
volunteering to handle FidoNet/Internet questions.)
FidoNews 9-46 Page 26 16 Nov 1992
SUBMISSIONS: You are encouraged to submit articles for publication in
FidoNews. Article submission requirements are contained in the file
ARTSPEC.DOC, available from the FidoNews BBS, or Wazoo filerequestable
from 1:1/1 as file "ARTSPEC.DOC". Please read it.
"Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered
trademarks of Tom Jennings, Box 77731, San Francisco CA 94107, USA and
are used with permission.
Asked what he thought of Western civilization,
M.K. Gandhi said, "I think it would be an excellent idea".
To send mail from an Internet site or smart UUCP Site TO a user
that calls a Fido-Net system.
You need to know the name of the person and node number of the
Fido-Net system that the person uses.
The address of a FidoNode looks like this: 1:105/302.0. Usually
the 1: and .0 are left off, but they are there by default. (In
Europe it is 2: and in the Pacific Basin it is 3:.) That
address can be translated as "Zone 1, Net 105, FidoNode 302,
Point 0." or p0.f302.n105.z1. Add the FidoNet domain of
.fidonet.org to the end of that, chop off the p0 (it is again,
a default) and you have f302.n105.z1.fidonet.org - the "Fully
Qualified Domain Name" of a FidoNode. Another example is
1:105/4.3 which would be written as p3.f4.n105.z1.fidonet.org
(since there is a point number other than 0, we have to specify
it). Note also that we are only using zone 1. This will also
work for zones 2 and 3, just use z2 or z3 as appropriate.
FidoNet uses full names of the callers. Multi-part name folks
(eg. First Last, ie. "Dale Weber") will have a period '.'
seperating their names. So, lets say you wanted to send mail
to Dale Weber at 1:105/55.0, you would address your letter to:
Submissions to comp.org.fidonet should be addressed to
Internet: po...@kumr.lns.com FidoNet: Tim Pozar @ 1:125/555
Snail: Tim Pozar / KKSF / 77 Maiden Lane / San Francisco CA 94108 / USA
Voice: +1 415 788 2022