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From: m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.mach,comp.os.linux,comp.unix.wizards,
comp.unix.internals
Subject: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Followup-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Date: 02 Nov 1993 08:01:25 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA
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This message to help sate curiosity, as well as to ask for volunteers.
Until we are ready for alpha test, this is the last such message that
will be posted here.  If you want to receive further such messages,
send mail to hurd-ann-requ...@gnu.ai.mit.edu and ask to be put on that
(moderated) announcements list.


What is already done with the Hurd:

The filesystem is complete; it runs (read-only), and most of its calls
have been tested and work.  The filesystem is able to download
programs, by a kludge similar to the kludge used to enable the kernel
to download the first task.  In the actual bootstap sequence, it will
download the execserver.

The proc and auth servers are completed; the exec server is nearly
complete (for a.out, not for bfd).  

C library support for Mach and Hurd rpc stubs, and some of the mach
and hurd specific code, is done.  Much untested and probably wrong
code has been written to implement Unix "system calls".  A large piece
of this (the descriptor management code) is believed by Roland to have
some architectural flaw, but he isn't sure.

Some small filesystem servers (shadow directories, for example) have
been written, but have not been compiled, let alone tested.


There are currently three things happening wrt the Hurd:

I am spending nearly all my time getting things to boot and run.  My
work is currently directed toward that goal; in the immediate present
I am working with Roland on getting the library in its near-final
state (which will last a long time) to make compiling easier.  It is
because this is nearly done that I can send this message.

Roland is working on the library.  Most of the remaining architectural
work is done and being tested.  Then Roland will work on integrating
cthreads (which is mostly busywork), miscellaneous filesystem calls,
and then file descriptors.  After that comes signals.

Jan Brittenson will be working on the network server library.  This is
a library that, when linked against a BSD protocol stack, will produce
a Hurd network server.  (Such a server implements the socket interface
in socket.defs.)


There are four general tasks that can be done by other people:

1. Completing the existing work on the terminal driver.  The existing
work implements most of the logic you already associate with a Posixy
terminal driver; it needs the port management and buffering logic
added.  

2. Writing a readline terminal driver.  We will want, as an
alternative to the Posixy terminal driver, a readline type terminal
driver.

3. Writing miscellaneous shell utilities.  Here we need shell
utilities to create translators, etc.  They should have a nice rich
set of features to do all kinds of GNU things.  

4. Writing miscellaneous filesystem servers.  Here we need a
transparent tar server, a transparent FTP server, and the like.


Future plans for work to be written by me (once the bootstrap works,
and in addition to testing library code as Roland finishes it):

o split the existing filesystem into three parts:
  o a library for port management for complicated multi-threaded
    servers;
  o a library for "normal" disk-based filesystems;
  o ufs specific code.

o Write the PF_FILE socket server (what you know as PF_UNIX).

o Finish the posixy terminal driver if nobody else has.

o Write miscellaneous shell utilities that nobody else has.

o Build a self-hosting system.


What you need in order to be able to help now:

o A 386 PC running Mach 3.0.  If you have some other kind of hardware,
  then you need to port the GNU C library support first.  I'm not
  entirely sure how much work that involves; you will need to contact
  Roland.  It might be too much trouble at this point to spend any
  effort on it.  It's best if it's a machine for which a free port of
  Mach is available, though you could do useful work even if it's not.

  If you are not currently running Mach 3.0 with somebody's
  single-server, then it is very unlikely you could help, unless you
  have a Unix source license.  In that case, you could talk to CMU
  (write m...@cs.cmu.edu) to find out how to get Mach 3.0 running on
  your machine.  It is not possible to do development without a Unix
  emulator of some kind; just bare Mach 3.0 is not sufficient.  I have
  neither the time nor knowledge to help someone get a 3.0
  single-server system running.

o Clue.  I don't have enough time to explain operating systems or Unix
  to people.  You need to have an iron-clad grasp of Unix semantics
  (specificaly BSD); it's essential that things be exactly right from
  that standpoint.  It's not enough that you've programmed Unix
  before; you need to understand all the nits.  However, you may
  disregard my previous comments about a "two question limit".  You do
  need the ability to intuit to some extent, however.

o Time.  It's not good for me to delegate a task and then have nothing
  happen on it.  If you have a full-time job where you can't justify
  Hurd work as part of your job, you might find that you don't really
  have as much time as you thought.  Please make sure you really have
  enough time before volunteering for a task.

o Efficient net access.  Without a real Internet connection (mail only
  is not sufficient), it will be impossible for you to do development
  right now.


If you think you can help, send me email.  If you don't think you can
help right now, then don't give up: the list of conditions will change
as the list of delegatable tasks changes.  

--
+1 617 623 3248 (H)      |     He shall give his angels charge over you,
+1 617 253 8568 (W)     -+-      to keep you in all your ways.
1105 Broadway            |     They shall bear you in their hards,
Somerville, MA 02144     |       lest you dash your foot against a stone.

Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
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From: bec...@super.org (Donald J. Becker)
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Message-ID: <1993Nov2.194952.14306@super.org>
Keywords: GNU, FSF, Hurd, free operating system
Sender: n...@super.org (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: descartes
Organization: IDA Supercomputing Research Center
References: <2b5jj7$rh@plootu.helsinki.fi>
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 19:49:52 GMT
Lines: 43

In article <2b5jj7...@plootu.helsinki.fi>,
Michael I Bushnell <m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>What is already done with the Hurd:
>
>The filesystem is complete; it runs (read-only), and most of its calls
.
>Some small filesystem servers (shadow directories, for example) have
>been written, but have not been compiled, let alone tested.
.
>I am spending nearly all my time getting things to boot and run.  My
>work is currently directed toward that goal; in the immediate present
.


"Don't dream it, be it."

I'm big fan of the GNU project, and have worked on and with various pieces of
GNU software since about 1986.  But this this is a little overboard.  I've
been hearing about Hurd for years, and the story has always been that the
design was pretty much complete, the implementation was nearly debugged, and
"outside" suggestions and help wasn't welcome.

This seemed to be confirmed when the "official" GNU people weren't interested
in Linux.  I heard statements that Hurd was going to be so much better that it
wasn't worth working on Linux.

Luckily I only listened for a while.  Eventually I thought for myself and
decided to give up the narrow-minded view that the officially-sanctioned Hurd
would be _the_ Free OS.  Linux is reliable, complete, fast and innovative.
Yes, you read that: innovative.  The innovation might not be obvious at first
because Linux doesn't start by throwing away traditional interfaces just for
the sake of doing things differently.  Instead it conforms to open, de-facto
standards wherever it makes sense. 

To echo the converse of earlier Hurd vs. Linux conversations: let's put the
Hurd work over in the corner with the Lisp Machines.

-- 

Donald Becker					       bec...@super.org
IDA Supercomputing Research Center
17100 Science Drive, Bowie MD 20715			   301-805-7482

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From: mar...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu (Marcus Daniels)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Keywords: GNU, FSF, Hurd, free operating system
Message-ID: <2b7jsk$eu7@ursula.ee.pdx.edu>
Date: 2 Nov 93 14:42:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: ursula.2b7jsk$eu7
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>>Luckily I only listened for a while.  Eventually I thought for myself and
>>decided to give up the narrow-minded view that the officially-sanctioned Hurd
>>would be _the_ Free OS.  Linux is reliable, complete, fast and innovative.

They really aren't comparable, except from the `narrow-minded-view' 
of them sharing a common ancestry, Unix.  Furthermore, there doesn't have to be
_a_ free O.S..

Linux is fast and mostly reliable, but architecturally it is just
another Unix (and yes, I've been using Linux a long time).  There are
`innovative' approaches in Linux, like the fast networking, the
/proc filesystem extensions, the expanding body of shared libraries,
etc.. but the overall architecture is pretty much the same.

Read mib's paper of the Hurd architecture before making inappropriate
comparisions.

I'll take the FSF's word for it if they think they can get more
done on the kernel in isolation.  It is just one component of the
O.S., after all.  In the long run the fact that device drivers, filesystems,
etc, developed outside the kernel will enable more users to aid
in development.

Linux may have thousands of users, but there aren't more than a few kernel
developers.  The marginal benefit of a few part time developers
early on has to be weighted against the heavy burden of support.  
I'm amazed that Linus, Eric, and H lu, Donald and the rest
have the patience they do.  It certainly isn't anyone's place to
expect it from them, or the FSF, just for the sake calming everyones
curiousity.

marcus

Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
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From: s...@bcars656.bnr.ca (Stephane Boucher)
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
In-Reply-To: marcus@ursula.ee.pdx.edu's message of 2 Nov 93 14:42:28 GMT
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	<CFwHpC.67G@news.cis.umn.edu> <2b7jsk$eu7@ursula.ee.pdx.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 16:25:56 GMT
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>>>>> "Marcus" == Marcus Daniels <mar...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu> writes:
Marcus> Article-I.D.: ursula.2b7jsk$eu7
Marcus> NNTP-Posting-Host: ee.pdx.edu

Marcus> Read mib's paper of the Hurd architecture before making inappropriate
Marcus> comparisions.

Where can one get this paper?

Thanks in advance.
--
  ,
Stephane Boucher       Recherche Bell-Northern Research
s...@bnr.ca
[Mes opinions sont les miennes -- My opinions are mine]

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From: m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Date: 04 Nov 1993 03:54:46 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA
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In-reply-to: sbo@bcars656.bnr.ca's message of Wed, 3 Nov 1993 16:25:56 GMT

In article <SBO.93Nov3112...@bcars656.bnr.ca> s...@bcars656.bnr.ca 
(Stephane Boucher) writes:

   Where can one get this paper?

Here is the most recent.  As it happens, this also addresses some of
the politics of operating system design.

Paper


--
+1 617 623 3248 (H)      |     He shall give his angels charge over you,
+1 617 253 8568 (W)     -+-      to keep you in all your ways.
1105 Broadway            |     They shall bear you in their hards,
Somerville, MA 02144     |       lest you dash your foot against a stone.

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From: m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Date: 04 Nov 1993 09:25:15 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA
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In-reply-to: hallu@info.polymtl.ca's message of Thu, 4 Nov 1993 02:53:55 GMT

In article <1993Nov4.025355.21...@vlsi.polymtl.ca> ha...@info.polymtl.ca 
(Louis-D. Dubeau) writes:

   Linux could have been a good start point to do Hurd. (I know it you have
   taken time to port Linux to Mach 3.0.) Instead the FSF choose
   to use bsdss as a developping platform and to write an OS from scratch.

The `Hurd' isn't just a name.  What it was that we chose to do was
something that couldn't have used much of a start from anything other
than what we did: Mach.  We don't use bsdss either; that would be
equally monolithic.  And the Hurd is hardly from scratch, given Mach.

   Since one needs some licences to use bsdss, it seriously retricted the
   number of people who could do anything useful for Hurd. I welcome the call
   for volunteers but I don't think they'll get many positive responses. (I
   sincerely hope I'm wrong about that prediction.)

It's the problem not with bsdss but with the other single-servers.
bsdss is based on NetBSD, and while it isn't stable, it will be soon.
(There have been volunteers, incidentally, who have time, equipment,
and the necessary licenses.)

Also, in order to participate in the alpha test, when that happens, no
licenses will be necessary.

   The decision to start from scratch meant that there wouldn't be any free OS
   from the FSF for some time. Meanwhile some Hurd enthousiasts got tired of
   waiting and choose to use Linux.

However: the FSF's goals are not self-aggrandizement.  Linux being out
is a Good Thing for the FSF, not the other way around.  So, whether
there is a free OS from the FSF or not, the FSF's goals are helped by
there being a free OS.  

If there is both the Hurd and something else, that is better than
there being only the Hurd.  The something else was being developed by
other people than us, so it wasn't a good use of FSF resources to do
it ourselves.

--
+1 617 623 3248 (H)      |     He shall give his angels charge over you,
+1 617 253 8568 (W)     -+-      to keep you in all your ways.
1105 Broadway            |     They shall bear you in their hards,
Somerville, MA 02144     |       lest you dash your foot against a stone.

Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
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From: bec...@super.org (Donald J. Becker)
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Message-ID: <1993Nov4.222352.26988@super.org>
Keywords: GNU, FSF, Hurd, free operating system
Sender: n...@super.org (USENET News System)
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Organization: IDA Supercomputing Research Center
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<CFwHpC.67G@news.cis.umn.edu> <2b7jsk$eu7@ursula.ee.pdx.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 22:23:52 GMT
Lines: 66

In article <2b7jsk$...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu>,
Marcus Daniels <mar...@ursula.ee.pdx.edu> wrote:
>Read mib's paper of the Hurd architecture before making inappropriate
>comparisions.

If you are talking about the early Hurd architecture paper, yes I read it.

_YEARS_ ago.

>I'll take the FSF's word for it if they think they can get more
>done on the kernel in isolation.  It is just one component of the
>O.S., after all.  In the long run the fact that device drivers, filesystems,
>etc, developed outside the kernel will enable more users to aid
>in development.

I used to think that a microkernel would allow easy development with only a
slight loss in performance.  I now know that the hard parts of driver
development are the "thinking" and "actually writing it" phases, not the
"putting it into the kernel" part.  Add to this the evidence that microkernels
are significantly slower than monolithic kernels, and microkernels don't make
a lot of sense.

>Linux may have thousands of users, but there aren't more than a few kernel
>developers.  The marginal benefit of a few part time developers
>early on has to be weighted against the heavy burden of support.  
>I'm amazed that Linus, Eric, and H lu, Donald and the rest
>have the patience they do.  It certainly isn't anyone's place to
>expect it from them, or the FSF, just for the sake calming everyones
>curiousity.

You sound as if you are advocating that development be done in private, only
releasing the perfected final product.  I think The Net has changed the way
large system development can be done: we now have the freedom to let
widespread groups work together on a project.

[[ Fade in AT&T advertisement music... ]]

Have you ever worked until late at night, put the resulting alpha software in
a public location, and then read a bug report and suggested fix from halfway
around the world using the bedside laptop the next morning?  I have.


The point here is that having people wait for neat new vaporware isn't nearly
as useful as having people use and improve something that's really pretty much
as useful as that neat new idea.  I'll repeat the oft-used example of the BSD
shared library implementation: early-on the BSD supporters ridiculed the Linux
single-version shared library implementation and proudly stated that BSD would
have a far superior shared library implementation.  Later the Linux
jump-table library was released.  The BSD people claimed that it was all a
time-wasting mistake, and that Linux would be stuck with something inferior to
BSD's _dynamic_ shared libraries (coming RSN).  Today Linux has
dynamically-linked shared libraries.  The last I heard the BSD crowd was
thinking of using the Linux implementation.

I think this is a close analog to the Hurd vs. Linux issue.  The GNU project
made a mistake when it rejected Linux as an ugly step-sister.  (hmmm, gotta
watch those mixed metaphors.)  I see a future where people say "GNU? I've
think I've heard of that -- isn't it the name of the Linux license?"


	-Don Becker, taking a break before writing another Linux device driver.
-- 

Donald Becker					       bec...@super.org
IDA Supercomputing Research Center
17100 Science Drive, Bowie MD 20715			   301-805-7482

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From: m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Date: 05 Nov 1993 08:51:57 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA
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Message-ID: <MIB.93Nov5035158@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
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In-reply-to: hallu@info.polymtl.ca's message of Thu, 4 Nov 1993 13:19:29 GMT

In article <1993Nov4.131929.26...@vlsi.polymtl.ca> ha...@info.polymtl.ca 
(Louis-D. Dubeau) writes:

   Michael I Bushnell (m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu) wrote:
   : The `Hurd' isn't just a name.  What it was that we chose to do was
   : something that couldn't have used much of a start from anything other
   : than what we did: Mach.  We don't use bsdss either; that would be
   : equally monolithic.  And the Hurd is hardly from scratch, given Mach.

   I know Hurd isn't just a name. It's good to be innovative but you don't
   have to bring all the innovations at once. You can start from a
   single-server and divide the functionnality between several servers later.
   In the process you can also add new functionnality. You wouldn't have
   started from scratch if you had ported Linux or some other free OS to Mach
   and started from there instead of what you did.

A judgement call here had to be made, and, in my technical judgement,
too much time would have been spent making that single-server that all
(in the long run) would become unused code.  At the time it seemed
likely that CMU would produce and release bsdss.  They did so, but
quickly stopped distribution thanks to the USL lawsuit.  Now work is
once again moving (I think) on bsdss.  Modulo the lawsuit, this would
have provided a single server for people who wanted one without taking
our time to produce it.

As for incrementally pulling things out of a single server, it sounds
like a nice idea, but it actually doesn't work too well.

   : It's the problem not with bsdss but with the other single-servers.
   : bsdss is based on NetBSD, and while it isn't stable, it will be soon.
   : (There have been volunteers, incidentally, who have time, equipment,
   : and the necessary licenses.)

   OK then I was wrong, the picture is: bsdss is unstable and the other BSD
   based servers need to have some licences.

That's right.

   : However: the FSF's goals are not self-aggrandizement.  Linux being out
   : is a Good Thing for the FSF, not the other way around.  So, whether
   : there is a free OS from the FSF or not, the FSF's goals are helped by
   : there being a free OS.  

   Like I said in an other message (posted in an other thread), whether we
   like it or not there will be a contest between Hurd and Linux when Hurd
   will come out. I know the FSF don't seek self-aggrandizement, but it
   nevertheless has some influence over free software development.  

Of course there will be a contest.  May the best OS win!  But, keep in
mind that unlike traditional contests, all three OS's will be learning
from each other and directly borrowing code.  This will be a Good
Thing, not a Bad Thing.

Obviously I'd like to see the Hurd "win", because I have some interest
in seeing my work widely used.  But my goals aren't purely selfish,
and if Linux or NetBSD is truly superior to the Hurd, then they should
be used more.

As was pointed out elsewhere, there are other things that are
important from a longer perspective, among them multiprocessors and
distributed systems, things that are very hard with monolithic
kernels.


--
+1 617 623 3248 (H)      |     He shall give his angels charge over you,
+1 617 253 8568 (W)     -+-      to keep you in all your ways.
1105 Broadway            |     They shall bear you in their hands,
Somerville, MA 02144     |       lest you dash your foot against a stone.

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From: wirze...@plootu.Helsinki.FI (Lars Wirzenius)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Followup-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Date: 5 Nov 1993 13:51:31 +0200
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ha...@info.polymtl.ca (Louis-D. Dubeau) writes:
> In the process you can also add new functionnality. You wouldn't have
> started from scratch if you had ported Linux or some other free OS to Mach
> and started from there instead of what you did.

When did work on the Hurd start?  Late 1980's?  That leaves Linux out
of the way, since Linus didn't even have a PC then, let alone had any
plans (dreams at most) about writing an operating system.  386BSD was
also not much to have at the time, if I remember correctly: it was
still under development, and would not, I think, have been all that
easy to use as the basis of a single-server. 

But then again, perhaps I am mistaken about when work on the Hurd
began.

--
Lars.Wirzen...@helsinki.fi  (finger wirze...@klaava.helsinki.fi)
It doesn't matter who you are, it's what you do that takes you far. --Madonna

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From: gra...@hydro.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Message-ID: <1993Nov5.181154.17233@rosevax.rosemount.com>
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<MIB.93Nov3225446@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 18:11:54 GMT
Lines: 19

Michael I Bushnell (m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu) wrote:

: The Hurd... the Hurd... the Hurd... 

[very well done description of new operating system design deleted]

OK.  But it's hard to take the project seriously when you insist on
calling it a cutesy name like "The Hurd" rather than just "Hurd."  Are
there other operating systems called "Hurd" from which you are trying
to differentiate your project?  "Oh, this isn't just any Hurd, it's
THE Hurd."

It sounds too much like Mr. Trump, AKA "The Donald."

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  Where's th' DAFFY DUCK
Rosemount Inc.                                |EXHIBIT??
                                              |
gra...@rosemount.com                          |

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From: m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Date: 09 Nov 1993 10:29:25 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA
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In-reply-to: becker@super.org's message of Thu, 4 Nov 1993 22:23:52 GMT

In article <1993Nov4.222352.26...@super.org> bec...@super.org (Donald J. Becker) writes:

   The point here is that having people wait for neat new vaporware
   isn't nearly as useful as having people use and improve something
   that's really pretty much as useful as that neat new idea.

Has anybody suggested that nobody should run or help with Linux or
NetBSD, and should instead wait for the Hurd to be usable?  I haven't
heard anyone say any such thing, which suggests that you are attacking
a rather large straw man.

--
+1 617 623 3248 (H)      |     He shall give his angels charge over you,
+1 617 253 8568 (W)     -+-      to keep you in all your ways.
1105 Broadway            |     They shall bear you in their hands,
Somerville, MA 02144     |       lest you dash your foot against a stone.

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From: m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
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In-reply-to: grante@hydro.rosemount.com's message of Fri, 5 Nov 1993 18:11:54 GMT

In article <1993Nov5.181154.17...@rosevax.rosemount.com> gra...@hydro.rosemount.com 
(Grant Edwards) writes:

   Michael I Bushnell (m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu) wrote:

   : The Hurd... the Hurd... the Hurd... 

   [very well done description of new operating system design deleted]

   OK.  But it's hard to take the project seriously when you insist on
   calling it a cutesy name like "The Hurd" rather than just "Hurd."  Are
   there other operating systems called "Hurd" from which you are trying
   to differentiate your project?  "Oh, this isn't just any Hurd, it's
   THE Hurd."

   It sounds too much like Mr. Trump, AKA "The Donald."

The accent isn't on "the", it's on "Hurd".  I chose that usage to
further the pun with "herd".  In English, apart from proper nouns,
most singular common nouns (*) take an article.  "Herd" is such a
noun.

(*): The exceptions are those which are sole exemplars (such as
"beauty") and those which are nouns of substance (such as "sugar").


--
+1 617 623 3248 (H)      |     He shall give his angels charge over you,
+1 617 253 8568 (W)     -+-      to keep you in all your ways.
1105 Broadway            |     They shall bear you in their hands,
Somerville, MA 02144     |       lest you dash your foot against a stone.

Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
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rosevax!hydro!grante
From: gra...@hydro.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Message-ID: <1993Nov10.032443.29697@rosevax.rosemount.com>
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<MIB.93Nov9053252@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993 03:24:43 GMT
Lines: 52

Michael I Bushnell (m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu) wrote:
: gra...@hydro.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) writes:

:    : The Hurd... the Hurd... the Hurd... 

:    [very well done description of new operating system design deleted]

:    OK.  But it's hard to take the project seriously when you insist on
:    calling it a cutesy name like "The Hurd" rather than just "Hurd."  Are
:    there other operating systems called "Hurd" from which you are trying
:    to differentiate your project?  "Oh, this isn't just any Hurd, it's
:    THE Hurd."

:    It sounds too much like Mr. Trump, AKA "The Donald."

: The accent isn't on "the", it's on "Hurd".  I chose that usage to
: further the pun with "herd".  In English, apart from proper nouns,
: most singular common nouns (*) take an article.  "Herd" is such a
: noun.

: (*): The exceptions are those which are sole exemplars (such as
: "beauty") and those which are nouns of substance (such as "sugar").

So, what other operating system have you used?  Would you answer "I
have used the MS-DOS" or "I have used the VMS" or "I have used the
Unix?"

I think not.  You would reply "I have used Unix" or "I have used VMS"
or "I used CP/M."  Likewise, most people would expect you to use Hurd
rather than to use the Hurd.  It would be common to place "the" in
front if you are saying "the Hurd operating system."

I have used the Unix operating system.  I have used Unix.
I have used the Hurd operating system.  I have used Hurd.

Call it whatever you want -- if you insist that the correct usage is
"the Hurd" then that's what I'll use. When I write an OS I guess I'll
get to name it, right?  You write it, you pick the name -- but if you
insist on an unnatural usage it won't fly.

Sort of like X.  According to MIT it's not "X Windows," it's either
"the X windowing system" or just "X" or "X11."  But, most of the time
you hear people say "X Windows."

Somebody expressed hope that this whole name thread that I started is
just a joke.  Well it is... mostly ;)

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  I just had my entire
Rosemount Inc.                                |INTESTINAL TRACT coated with
                                              |TEFLON!
gra...@rosemount.com                          |

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From: m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Date: 11 Nov 1993 03:47:18 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA
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In-reply-to: grante@hydro.rosemount.com's message of Wed, 10 Nov 1993 03:24:43 GMT

In article <1993Nov10.032443.29...@rosevax.rosemount.com> gra...@hydro.rosemount.com 
(Grant Edwards) writes:

   : The accent isn't on "the", it's on "Hurd".  I chose that usage to
   : further the pun with "herd".  In English, apart from proper nouns,
   : most singular common nouns (*) take an article.  "Herd" is such a
   : noun.

   : (*): The exceptions are those which are sole exemplars (such as
   : "beauty") and those which are nouns of substance (such as "sugar").

   So, what other operating system have you used?  Would you answer "I
   have used the MS-DOS" or "I have used the VMS" or "I have used the
   Unix?"

   I think not.  You would reply "I have used Unix" or "I have used VMS"
   or "I used CP/M."  Likewise, most people would expect you to use Hurd
   rather than to use the Hurd.  It would be common to place "the" in
   front if you are saying "the Hurd operating system."

Pretend it isn't a proper noun and is spelled `herd'.  That's the
reason for the usage.

--
+1 617 623 3248 (H)      |     He shall give his angels charge over you,
+1 617 253 8568 (W)     -+-      to keep you in all your ways.
1105 Broadway            |     They shall bear you in their hands,
Somerville, MA 02144     |       lest you dash your foot against a stone.

Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
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From: bec...@super.org (Donald J. Becker)
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Message-ID: <1993Nov10.190729.643@super.org>
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<1993Nov4.222352.26988@super.org> <MIB.93Nov9052926@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993 19:07:29 GMT
Lines: 46

In article <MIB.93Nov9052...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu>,
Michael I Bushnell <m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <1993Nov4.222352.26...@super.org> bec...@super.org (Donald J. Becker) writes:
>
>   The point here is that having people wait for neat new vaporware
>   isn't nearly as useful as having people use and improve something
>   that's really pretty much as useful as that neat new idea.
>
>Has anybody suggested that nobody should run or help with Linux or
>NetBSD, and should instead wait for the Hurd to be usable?  I haven't
>heard anyone say any such thing, which suggests that you are attacking
>a rather large straw man.

I guess I didn't make my point clear enough: there is a huge difference
between the way Linux has been developed, and the Hurd development approach.

While the Linux core did come into existence without the Internet, the speed
of its subsequent development was due to the new work style made possible by
the Internet.  The population density of people that (can and _will_) write
code is very low.  The Internet allow virtual(1) teams to gather and work
closely together, despite being physically distributed.  More importantly it
also provides a diverse audience of testers, some of whom will provide
detailed feedback or go on to enhance particular aspects of the code.

The only way people are going to join such a team, however, is if
there is a structure and attitude to permit mutual benefit.  The FSF project
provided an essential part of the Linux structure by writing the GPL.  What
they haven't promoted, at least in the case of Hurd, is an attitude that
encourages people to work together.  That requires letting the people that
write prototype code make design decisions, and providing enough interim
releases that testers see the positive influence of their feedback.


(1) I too dislike the `in' phrases "Virtual {Community, Reality, ...}".  Please
forgive me for using one.

(2) Without the GPL, people and corporations too often are tempted to hold
onto bugfixes and improvements, just in case they become useful enough to sell
someday. 


-- 

Donald Becker					       bec...@super.org
IDA Supercomputing Research Center
17100 Science Drive, Bowie MD 20715			   301-805-7482

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From: a...@snoopy.setanta.demon.co.uk (Alan Braggins)
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
In-Reply-To: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu's message of 11 Nov 1993 03:47:18 GMT
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	<MIB.93Nov10224722@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1993 12:07:19 GMT

In article <MIB.93Nov10224...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu> m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu 
(Michael I Bushnell) writes:
>   Pretend it isn't a proper noun and is spelled `herd'.  That's the
>   reason for the usage.

Why isn't it spelled "Herd"? So it can be trademarked, or because you
wanted a letter in common with GNU, or some other reason?

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From: m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Date: 16 Nov 1993 06:10:56 GMT
Organization: FOO
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In-reply-to: becker@super.org's message of Wed, 10 Nov 1993 19:07:29 GMT

In article <1993Nov10.190729....@super.org> bec...@super.org (Donald J. Becker) writes:

   The only way people are going to join such a team, however, is if
   there is a structure and attitude to permit mutual benefit.  The FSF project
   provided an essential part of the Linux structure by writing the GPL.  What
   they haven't promoted, at least in the case of Hurd, is an attitude that
   encourages people to work together.  That requires letting the people that
   write prototype code make design decisions, and providing enough interim
   releases that testers see the positive influence of their feedback.

There are essentially two reasons for this.  First, in order to keep
the design coherent, it is necessary to have a relatively small number
of people architect the system.  Second, until there is a nearly
self-hosting system, people need Mach 3.0 systems, which are
relatively few and far between.  

The goals for Linux to solve were clear in advance: implement the
features of a BSD kernel.  But with the Hurd, I wanted to be more open
ended about what features to provide; this meant that they were *new*
things.  Not just "how do we implement feature XXX", but also "should
we do XXX or YYY."

Originally, I had a mailing list, called hurd-folks, in which such
design questions were to be discussed.  It failed, because the
participants tended to harp on about favorite littly petty issues like
whether a.out should be the default exec format, or settled issues
like whether we should really be using Mach or not.

So, we tried that system, and it failed.

--
+1 617 623 3248 (H)      |     He shall give his angels charge over you,
+1 617 253 8568 (W)     -+-      to keep you in all your ways.
1105 Broadway            |     They shall bear you in their hands,
Somerville, MA 02144     |       lest you dash your foot against a stone.

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From: m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Date: 16 Nov 1993 06:16:16 GMT
Organization: FOO
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In-reply-to: armb@snoopy.setanta.demon.co.uk's message of Fri, 12 Nov 1993 12:07:19 GMT

In article <ARMB.93Nov12120...@snoopy.setanta.demon.co.uk> 
a...@snoopy.setanta.demon.co.uk (Alan Braggins) writes:

   In article <MIB.93Nov10224...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu> m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu 
(Michael I Bushnell) writes:
   >   Pretend it isn't a proper noun and is spelled `herd'.  That's the
   >   reason for the usage.

   Why isn't it spelled "Herd"? So it can be trademarked, or because you
   wanted a letter in common with GNU, or some other reason?

Because I'm perverse and wanted to spell it differently from the
normal word.  It suggests that there should be an acronym.

But there isn't an acronym, at least, not one thought of in advance.
However, several people have thought up clever possibilities.  Here
are some of the current ones:

Has Unix Really Died?

Hurd Unacceptably Repeats Disasters.

Hierarchy of Useful Recursive Daemons.

Some are mutually indirectly recursive acronyms:

HURD == Hird of Unix-Replacing Daemons
HIRD == Hurd of Interfaces Representing Depth

HURD == Host of Unix-Replacing Daemons
HOST == Handful of Server Things
THINGS == That's Hurd IN Gnu Speak

The first is my favorite.  The second indicates the possiblity of
abusive ones as well as positive.  The third is really totally false,
because the Hurd is neither hierarchical nor recursive.

The Hurd is also namef for neithr British Foreign Secretary Douglas
Hurd nor plainsong researcher/composer David Hurd.

I thought of the idea of mutually indirectly recursive acronyms; I
think it's original.  If anyone thinks up other clever acronyms or
knows of other real-life people named `Hurd', let me know.  A list of
such will be in the manual when it gets published.


--
+1 617 623 3248 (H)      |     He shall give his angels charge over you,
+1 617 253 8568 (W)     -+-      to keep you in all your ways.
1105 Broadway            |     They shall bear you in their hands,
Somerville, MA 02144     |       lest you dash your foot against a stone.

Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
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From: gboer...@sce.carleton.ca (Gerald Boersma)
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Message-ID: <gboersma.753482876@space.sce.carleton.ca>
Sender: n...@cunews.carleton.ca (News Administrator)
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<1993Nov4.222352.26988@super.org> 	<MIB.93Nov9052926@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu> 	
<1993Nov10.190729.643@super.org> <MIB.93Nov16011056@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 20:47:56 GMT
Lines: 18

One of the things missing from UNIX is a proper implementation of
C-THREADS.

Now, from what I have been able to figure out from the HURD
documentation available, is that the process manager will be
implemented as a separate server. However, it is a server, as all
other HURD servers, that will be implemented in user space.

So, if I wanted to add a proper implementation of threads to HURD,
could I just write my own server in user space, advertise the
port-numbero of the serve, and thus add functionality to the kernel
for all users who want it?

  Correct me if I am off base here!

Gerald Boersma
Telepresence

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From: m...@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Hurd status and call for volunteers
Date: 17 Nov 1993 06:20:41 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA
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In-reply-to: gboersma@sce.carleton.ca's message of Tue, 16 Nov 1993 20:47:56 GMT

In article <gboersma.753482...@space.sce.carleton.ca> gboer...@sce.carleton.ca 
(Gerald Boersma) writes:

   One of the things missing from UNIX is a proper implementation of
   C-THREADS.

   Now, from what I have been able to figure out from the HURD
   documentation available, is that the process manager will be
   implemented as a separate server. However, it is a server, as all
   other HURD servers, that will be implemented in user space.

   So, if I wanted to add a proper implementation of threads to HURD,
   could I just write my own server in user space, advertise the
   port-numbero of the serve, and thus add functionality to the kernel
   for all users who want it?

     Correct me if I am off base here!

Mach implements threads already, don't worry about it.

The process server is only a bookkeeper and wouldn't do anything
anyway.

--
+1 617 623 3248 (H)    |   The soul of Jonathan was bound to the soul of David,
+1 617 253 8568 (W)   -+-   and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
1105 Broadway          |  Then Jonathan made a covenant with David
Somerville, MA 02144   |    because he loved him as his own soul.

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