From: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
Subject: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/03/28
Message-ID: <fa.fdmng5v.10lad3c@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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Properly speaking, Linux is the kernel that Linus wrote. He started
development of the kernel, so naming it is his prerogative.
The operating system in which Linux is typically used is basically the
GNU system, combined with Linux and somewhat modified. The GNU
Project started development of this system, so we ought to get credit.
Mentioning GNU in names of variants of the system is a way of giving
credit. The best name to use for the Linux-based variant of the
system is "GNU/Linux", which means, GNU and Linux together.
It wouldn't be right to use the term "GNU Linux", because that would
mean either "GNU's version of Linux" or "Linux, which is a GNU
program". Those meanings don't fit the facts. "GNU/Linux" does fit.
Calling the operating system just Linux confuses most users--anyone
who doesn't have a real firm understanding of the difference and
relationship between the whole system and the kernel. These people
see statements about "Linux", some of which refer to the kernel and
some of which refer to the whole system, and they don't realize that
not all the statements are talking about the same thing.
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From: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/03/30
Message-ID: <fa.fen1gdv.11l4cbe@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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Original-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:48:39 -0700 (MST)
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To: g...@oriole.sbay.org, emars...@logic.net
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Well, if you instist on making the additional requirement that anyone
using GNU tools must add GNU/ to whatever they produce (I see that nowhere
in the GPL, BTW, where did that requirement come from?)
When talking about a Linux-based version of the GNU operating system,
it's only fair to use GNU in the name. It's not a legal requirement;
unlike the BSD developers, I'm not trying to force you. I'm asking
you to do it voluntarily.
Perhaps
you'd have better luck talking to the people who actually -make- the
distributions, rather than a kernel hackers list?
Some distributions acknowledge that the system is GNU. But when I
asked the makers of some commercial distributions to do this, they
said that they chose the name based on maximizing sales rather than on
what was right and proper. One of them reprinted my article about the
issue, and said he basically agreed with it, but he still did not
change the name of the distribution ;-(.
I can't tell them what to do, I can only ask.
We've already had evidence posted to this list that FSF-owned tools
constitute less than 10% of the SuSE OS distribution.
The FSF-copyrighted programs are a portion of the GNU software, and
tools are also just a portion. So what fraction of a particular
system consists of FSF-copyrighted tools has no special significance.
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From: "Edward S. Marshall" <emars...@logic.net>
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/03/30
Message-ID: <fa.l9tbf6v.i10789@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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Original-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:57:58 -0600 (CST)
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To: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
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On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Richard Stallman wrote:
> We've already had evidence posted to this list that FSF-owned tools
> constitute less than 10% of the SuSE OS distribution.
>
> The FSF-copyrighted programs are a portion of the GNU software, and
> tools are also just a portion. So what fraction of a particular
> system consists of FSF-copyrighted tools has no special significance.
Are you now claiming software that -I've- written and released under GPL
as "GNU software" and as such part of the GNU system (to use phrasings
you and others have used in other posts)?
Just curious.
--
Edward S. Marshall <emars...@logic.net> [ What goes up, must come down. ]
http://www.logic.net/~emarshal/ [ Ask any system administrator. ]
Linux labyrinth 2.2.3-ac4 #2 Sun Mar 21 13:08:37 CST 1999 i586 unknown
9:55am up 10:42, 2 users, load average: 0.22, 0.09, 0.04
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From: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/04/01
Message-ID: <fa.fanvh5v.13k2d37@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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People sometimes use the term "operating system design" to mean the
design of kernels. However, for decades, when I've heard people talk
about operating systems such as Unix, Multics, ITS, VMS, OS/360, or
even Microsoft Windows, they generally did meant the whole collection
of software, not just the kernel.
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From: Bob Taylor <brtay...@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/04/01
Message-ID: <fa.khacupv.156470s@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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In message <199904010654.XAA03...@wijiji.santafe.edu>, Richard Stallman
writes:
cc: j...@nodomainname.net, g...@oriole.sbay.org, an...@andyc.carenet.org,
linux-ker...@vger.rutgers.edu
> People sometimes use the term "operating system design" to mean the
> design of kernels. However, for decades, when I've heard people talk
> about operating systems such as Unix, Multics, ITS, VMS, OS/360, or
> even Microsoft Windows, they generally did meant the whole collection
> of software, not just the kernel.
Richard,
AFAIK, Linux is the *first* OS that started out as a kernel only. All
of the userland was added. Therefore, as you remark, people will think
of Linux as a Linux OS because historically that has been the case.
You, as well as the FSF, have had more than your share of recognition.
Recognition is also given in the Linux sources. Your continual asking
for renaming Linux distributions to GNU/Linux is becoming tiresome and
childish. The only OS you have any right whatsoever to name is your own,
the HURD. I find asking companies who are pouring their own funds into
Linux development, such as Red Hat, SUSE and Caldera to change the name of
their *distribution* offensive.
Please stop this nonsence. You are beginning to make a fool of yourself.
Bob
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bob Taylor Email: brtay...@inreach.com |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
| Like the ad says, at 300 dpi you can tell she's wearing a |
| swimsuit. At 600 dpi you can tell it's wet. At 1200 dpi you |
| can tell it's painted on. I suppose at 2400 dpi you can tell |
| if the paint is giving her a rash. (So says Joshua R. Poulson)|
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
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From: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/04/01
Message-ID: <fa.ff71ftv.165ccb4@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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Are you now claiming software that -I've- written and released under GPL
as "GNU software" and as such part of the GNU system (to use phrasings
you and others have used in other posts)?
If a program is GNU software, that means it is released under the
auspices of the GNU Project. Your program wouldn't be GNU software
unless you and the GNU Project have agreed that it is.
However, it could be part of the GNU operating system. That just
means we like it and decided to use it, not that we claim any credit
for it.
A number of people have gone to great lengths to express their outrage
at the idea that all programs released under the GPL are GNU programs.
It was all unnecessary, because I'm not saying that. I don't think
anyone is saying that. (See the definition of "GNU software" in
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html.)
Perhaps the misunderstanding was partly caused by me--maybe I should
have addressed this point explicitly in my earlier message. Still, it
would be useful for people to make an extra effort to verify what
someone's position really is, before publicly criticizing it.
This whole thread was begun by a message of the same kind: someone
criticized what he thought were my reasons for using the term
GNU/Linux. His criticism of those reasons was valid, but they weren't
my actual reasons. If people would ask questions first, and shoot
later, this discussion would be a lot shorter.
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From: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/04/03
Message-ID: <fa.hqpjj9v.1ks78m@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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A number of people have asked me to stop posting "off-topic" messages
about the name of the operating system.
I regret the annoyance of, and the need for, this thread. But with
all respect, I believe I should and must respond to the messages that
others are posting (which is all I have done in this thread). If I
don't challenge such claims, they will be believed by default. (I
have avoided responding in cases where I see others have done the
job.)
If this thread is annoying, please imagine what it is like to see an
idealistic project stymied and made ineffective, because people don't
usually give it the credit for what it has done. If you're an
idealist like me, that can ruin your whole decade.
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From: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/04/03
Message-ID: <fa.htpjj9v.2ks78m@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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AFAIK, Linux is the *first* OS that started out as a kernel only. All
of the userland was added.
What you're calling "userland" is practically the whole operating
system--and it happens to be the GNU operating system. Linux, the
kernel, came last, not first. The GNU Project began the development
of this system, years before the first line of Linux was written.
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From: Benjamin Scherrey <scher...@gte.net>
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/04/04
Message-ID: <fa.djrm42v.1kisjom@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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Isn't there an anti-spam policy for this list? Can't we disallow people who
grossly abuse it from further postings? I vote we do this. Meanwhile, to the
spammer, please go away.
thank you,
Ben Scherrey
Richard Stallman wrote:
> A number of people have asked me to stop posting "off-topic" messages
> about the name of the operating system.
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From: j...@pa.dec.com (Jim Gettys)
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/04/05
Message-ID: <fa.grb718v.k4euqj@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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> Sender: owner-linux-ker...@vger.rutgers.edu
> From: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:59:27 -0500
> To: brtay...@inreach.com
> Cc: linux-ker...@vger.rutgers.edu
> Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
> -----
> AFAIK, Linux is the *first* OS that started out as a kernel only. All
> of the userland was added.
>
> What you're calling "userland" is practically the whole operating
> system--and it happens to be the GNU operating system. Linux, the
> kernel, came last, not first. The GNU Project began the development
> of this system, years before the first line of Linux was written.
>
I think you'd find many who would dispute the claim that "userland"
is dominated by GNU software.
And part of Linux (and I'm happy to be part of Linux), is the X Window
System, which started in 1984. It was never part of GNU.
And part of Linux is Sendmail, which started even earlier than X.
And part of Linux is Bind, which started even earlier than X.
So lots of significant components predate (and postdate) GNU.
Apache started more recently; it was not part of GNU.
Many other major components come from all over; arguably they are what
is driving Linux's acceptance as much as anything GNU OR the Linux kernel
did. (Note that I believe that right now it is Internet services driving
Linux acceptance; not the X Window System).
There are lots of people on this bus; I don't hear a clamor of support
that GNU is more essential than many of the other components; can't
take a wheel away, and end up with a functional vehicle, or an engine,
or the seats. I recommend you be happy we have a bus.
- Jim Gettys
--
Jim Gettys
Industry Standards and Consortia
Compaq Computer Corporation
Visting Scientist, World Wide Web Consortium, M.I.T.
http://www.w3.org/People/Gettys/
j...@w3.org, j...@pa.dec.com
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From: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/04/06
Message-ID: <fa.hsojg9v.3k048n@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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Isn't there an anti-spam policy for this list? Can't we disallow people who
grossly abuse it from further postings? I vote we do this. Meanwhile, to the
spammer, please go away.
The relationship between Linux and the system in which it is used is
pretty closely related to the central topic of this list. So calling
it off-topic is drawing a very sharp line. However, if that's what
people want, I won't bring up the subject here if others don't.
If people want to have a policy of banning people who bring up the
topic of that relationship, I hope that policy will be applied fairly.
I am confident that the people who manage the list would not apply
such a policy in a biased manner, based on which opinion a person
holds.
But instead of that, I recommend a more general rule that people
should be civil, no matter what the topic is, and never abuse or
personally attack any other participant.
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From: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/04/06
Message-ID: <fa.hrojh1v.k040g@ifi.uio.no>#1/1
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I think you'd find many who would dispute the claim that "userland"
is dominated by GNU software.
Almost anything I say will find many people to dispute it, but this
happens to be true nonetheless. In the Yggdrasil distribution, GNU
software was some 28 percent of the code, a larger fraction than came
from any other project. And it includes many of the most essential
system components (which is no accident)--such as the C library
through which every user program talks to the kernel.
A recent count found that FSF-copyrighted software (which is just a
subset of GNU software) was 10% of the system, and the FSF was
apparently the largest single copyright holder. I wouldn't say that
being the largest single copyright holder is terribly important, but
it illustrates the point that the GNU Project is the principal
developer of the system.
And part of Linux (and I'm happy to be part of Linux), is the X Window
System, which started in 1984. It was never part of GNU.
Many people who know about the GNU Project are not aware that GNU is,
first of all, the name of one operating system. The GNU Project takes
its name from that system, it being the project to develop the system.
"GNU software" is the software we wrote as part of developing the GNU
system, plus other programs specifically contributed to the GNU system
by their developers.
The X Window System wasn't developed by the GNU Project, any more than
it was written by Linus Torvalds; but we could and did include it in
GNU, back in the 1980s. Thus, X is part of GNU, in the same sense
that you call it "part of Linux": it is included in the GNU operating
system. For this reason, we have since that time had the policy
that graphical programs used in GNU had to work with X.
Likewise for Sendmail and Bind, as well as TeX, which I believe was
developed starting in 1978. I incorporated TeX into the GNU system
right from the outset, by building Texinfo around it, and using it for
all GNU documentation. TeX is not GNU software, not even GPL-covered
software, but we added it to the GNU system.
Many other people and projects have contributed code to the system,
and some of this code is just as vital as anything the GNU Project
wrote. But the GNU Project did one other crucial thing which no one
else did: we made a complete free operating system our explicit goal.
While others were writing a program here or there, for various
laudable motives, we were systematically developing all the missing
components, doing whatever was needed to reach the goal. And we are
still doing this (much of the core of the system lacks free
documentation, and we are working on filling this gap).
Many other contributors did not share this goal, and while their code
is no less useful because of that, in most cases that the fact that it
was useful in this system is a lucky coincidence. For the GNU
Project, this was no coincidence--we wrote the software so that it
would be useful in this system.
As you see, this is often forgotten today. People think of the GNU
Project as if all we did was write a number of useful programs, like
the other projects.
So part of the reason I ask people to call the Linux-based system
GNU/Linux is to remind people of what really happened. Users should
know that the system exists because of the idealistic vision of the
GNU Project. Users should know that we worked for years towards this
goal, at a time when most people said it was impossible and foolish.
Then they will see that idealism is sometimes the only way to achieve
an important practical result. Some of them will take this idealism
seriously, and come to value their freedom strongly enough to help
defend it when it is threatened. And that is what our community needs
more than anything else.
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From: j...@pa.dec.com (Jim Gettys)
Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
Date: 1999/04/07
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> From: Richard Stallman <r...@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 05:20:09 -0400
> To: j...@pa.dec.com
> Cc: brtay...@inreach.com, linux-ker...@vger.rutgers.edu
> Subject: Re: GNU/Linux
> -----
> I think you'd find many who would dispute the claim that "userland"
> is dominated by GNU software.
>
> Almost anything I say will find many people to dispute it, but this
> happens to be true nonetheless. In the Yggdrasil distribution, GNU
> software was some 28 percent of the code, a larger fraction than came
> from any other project. And it includes many of the most essential
> system components (which is no accident)--such as the C library
> through which every user program talks to the kernel.
>
> A recent count found that FSF-copyrighted software (which is just a
> subset of GNU software) was 10% of the system, and the FSF was
> apparently the largest single copyright holder. I wouldn't say that
> being the largest single copyright holder is terribly important, but
> it illustrates the point that the GNU Project is the principal
> developer of the system.
10%, or even 28%, isn't enough to claim "principle" developer in my book.
Major contributor, maybe even largest contributor, but principle implies
a majority, at least in my mind.
And lines of code are not the only measure. Right now, what is propelling
Linux into the general market are in fact the server applications:
sendmail, bind, Apache, etc; not the user-land tools (including the ones
I've worked on). A good case could be made that these are the "killer
apps" of the Linux market.
>
> And part of Linux (and I'm happy to be part of Linux), is the X Window
> System, which started in 1984. It was never part of GNU.
>
> Many people who know about the GNU Project are not aware that GNU is,
> first of all, the name of one operating system. The GNU Project takes
> its name from that system, it being the project to develop the system.
> "GNU software" is the software we wrote as part of developing the GNU
> system, plus other programs specifically contributed to the GNU system
> by their developers.
>
> The X Window System wasn't developed by the GNU Project, any more than
> it was written by Linus Torvalds; but we could and did include it in
> GNU, back in the 1980s. Thus, X is part of GNU, in the same sense
> that you call it "part of Linux": it is included in the GNU operating
> system. For this reason, we have since that time had the policy
> that graphical programs used in GNU had to work with X.
Does the fact that gcc is often used as the compiler of the X Window
System on many platforms mean that I should claim that gcc is part
of the X project? I think not... These tools, the GNU tools included,
are used in many other environments on their own for their own merits,
but Solaris, or Digital UNIX, don't claim that since they adopted these
tools they should be credited with them.
Apache, sendmail, bind, the X window system, etc, the list is too long
to name, have a strong life external to GNU, are parts of many other systems
(Solaris, Digital UNIX, HP/UX, FreeBSD, NetBSD, even Windows) used by
millions of of people; that does not make them parts of those other systems.
Likewise, because you have found a tool useful to your ends, claiming that
X, or Apache, or Sendmail, or Bind is part of the GNU project, and therefore
GNU should be credited, is similarly specious.
This claim that "X is part of GNU", with the implied corallary that GNU should
be given credit for other tools or for X, is what is divisive to the community.
Give credit where credit is due, be generous to others for their
contributions. Even implying that GNU should be given credit for work
done by other projects is the way to divide, rather than grow, the community
developing free software.
>
> Likewise for Sendmail and Bind, as well as TeX, which I believe was
> developed starting in 1978. I incorporated TeX into the GNU system
> right from the outset, by building Texinfo around it, and using it for
> all GNU documentation. TeX is not GNU software, not even GPL-covered
> software, but we added it to the GNU system.
And one could say that Linux, and many other systems have incorporated
TeX, the X Window System, with equal validity. Why does this mean that
Linux should be called GNU/Linux. The geneology of these tools are completely
independent of the GNU project.
>
> Many other people and projects have contributed code to the system,
> and some of this code is just as vital as anything the GNU Project
> wrote. But the GNU Project did one other crucial thing which no one
> else did: we made a complete free operating system our explicit goal.
> While others were writing a program here or there, for various
> laudable motives, we were systematically developing all the missing
> components, doing whatever was needed to reach the goal. And we are
> still doing this (much of the core of the system lacks free
> documentation, and we are working on filling this gap).
"no one else did"? Seems to me that the FreeBSD and NetBSD folks have
equal claim to such a goal. They may not have marketed themselves that
way, but it is certainly the case.
And others, in the FreeBSD and NetBSD projects did their part as well;
along with folks at Berkeley who bothered to free up as much non-AT&T
derived code as possible did theirs. I don't think you can claim that
what has resulted as Linux is exclusively due to the GNU project, large
though the contributions have been.
And much of the resulting system has extensive documentation, built
by the contributors. I care not to think about the sweat and blood I've
put on on my parts, nor the work that my company added in terms of
technical writing on the project...
>
> Many other contributors did not share this goal, and while their code
> is no less useful because of that, in most cases that the fact that it
> was useful in this system is a lucky coincidence. For the GNU
> Project, this was no coincidence--we wrote the software so that it
> would be useful in this system.
>
> As you see, this is often forgotten today. People think of the GNU
> Project as if all we did was write a number of useful programs, like
> the other projects.
No, I don't think most people who build free software forget that your
goal was to create an entire system.
>
> So part of the reason I ask people to call the Linux-based system
> GNU/Linux is to remind people of what really happened. Users should
> know that the system exists because of the idealistic vision of the
> GNU Project. Users should know that we worked for years towards this
> goal, at a time when most people said it was impossible and foolish.
>
Along with the idealism of many other people, in many other projects:
BSD, Apache, the X Window System, Perl, TK/Tcl, etc.
You do NOT have a monopoly on idealism. Many of us (maybe most) may disagree
with your methods, but agree with the goals.
> Then they will see that idealism is sometimes the only way to achieve
> an important practical result. Some of them will take this idealism
> seriously, and come to value their freedom strongly enough to help
> defend it when it is threatened. And that is what our community needs
> more than anything else.
"The only way"? I think not. Idealism is very useful; but not all have
your ideals. They often have their own ideals, as valid as yours. For
example, I drafted the original X copyright: my ideal of "free software"
is that others can use it for anything they like, including making money
to support their families. Are my ideals any worse or better than yours?
I think not. One must view things in what aims are to be achieved, and
how the world may be made a better place.
At this date, people call the aggreate "Linux"; it is long since too late
to attempt any change.
Richard, I am not trying to diminish your accomplishments: we are all well
aware of them, and use tools that you wrote or the GNU project has
written every day. You will NOT be forgotten. But you are damaging yourself
and your project's reputation everytime you overstate your contributions
or understate other's contributions.
So when you say GNU/Linux, sir, you have my opposition, not my support.
I believe this is dividing the community, not uniteing it. Be generous
with your credit to others, and not crediting yourself with others
contributions.
At this point, I've stated my position as clearly as I know how, and
do not intend to discuss this further.
- Jim Gettys
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