Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:52:13 -0500
From: emman...@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: 2600 Meeting Disrupted by Law Enforcement
On Friday, November 6th, the 2600 meeting in Washington DC was
disrupted by assorted law enforcement people. Details are still coming
in at this point but there are some details that have been
corroborated by a number of people. This is what we know: Shortly
after the gathering commenced at the Pentagon City Mall, the 30 or so
people who were there were surrounded by mall security who demanded
that everyone consent to searches. They were told that if they refused
to be searched, they'd be arrested. Everyone's bags were gone through
and lots of personal property was confiscated including notebooks,
school work, various tools, a computer keyboard, and many other items.
The security guards were in radio contact with others on a balcony who
had been watching the group. One of the attendees was detained by
security who would neither arrest him nor let him go. After about 10
minutes, he was released. Some property was returned but much was not.
No receipts were given and, at one point, the security guards denied
having anything at all. They then said that if they did have anything,
the attendees would have to return the next week with proof of
ownership. The mall police were later joined by local Virginia police,
who told the group they would be arrested if they didn't leave the
mall immediately. In addition to searching everybody, the police took
down the names of everyone present.
At this point it doesn't look as if there was anything illegal going
on or anything illegal in anyone's possession. It also should be noted
that the mall police said they were acting on behalf of the Secret
Service. The local police would only say they were gathering
information for an "outside party".
The following is from Bob Stratton, one of our people on the scene:
I hope that someone like Inhuman might be able to fill in the details,
but just as a brief...
+++++
I showed up late to the 2600 meeting in DC tonight, and I found
everyone outside on the sidewalk instead of in the food court of the
normal meeting place. Evidently they were hassled severely by the mall
security officers, who took ID, confiscated all manner of property,
tore up the list of officers' names being compiled by one attendee,
and threatened to confiscate a camera being used by one attendee to
record the whole fiasco.
The real police were called, and evidently made but a cursory
appearance, though some comment about working with the Secret Service
was made. The worst thing is that the private security officers who
took property later denied it, and people are now in a quandary as to
the best mechanism for recovery of their property.
I was fortunate enough to have missed the worst of it, though I
do regret that I wasn't there earlier if only to tell the rent-a-cops
what I thought of them, and my knowledge of my rights.
I know that several of the attendees called up to New York, to
Emmanuel Goldstein, and I'm interested in hearing his take on things.
Film at 11.
--Strat
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:17:34
From: jmcmul...@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: Reports Of "Raid" On 2600 Washington Meeting
WASHINGTON, D.C., U.S.A., 1992 NOV 7 (NB) -- Eric Corley, a/k/a
"Emmanuel Goldstein", editor and publisher of 2600 Magazine: The
Hacker Quarterly has told Newsbytes that the Friday, November November
6th 2600 meeting held in the Pentagon City Mall, outside of
Washington, DC. was disrupted by threats of arrest by mall security
officers and Arlington, VA police.
2600 Magazine promotes monthly meetings of hackers, press and other
interested parties throughout the country. The meetings are held in
public locations on the first Friday evening of the month and the
groups often contact each other by telephone during the meetings.
Corley told Newsbytes that meetings were held that evening in New
York, Washington, Philadelphia, Cambridge, St. Louis, Chicago, Los
Angeles and San Francisco. Corley said "While I am sure that meetings
have been observed by law enforcement agencies, this is the only time
that we have been harassed. It is definitely a freedom of speech
issue."
According to Craig Neidorf, who was present at the meeting handing out
applications for Computer Professionals For Social Responsibility
(CPSR), "I saw the security officers focusing on us. Then they started
to come toward us from a number of directions under what seemed to be
the direction of a person with a walkie-talkie on a balcony. When they
approached, I left the group and observed the security personnel
encircling the group of about 30 gatherers. The group was mainly
composed of high school and college students. The guards demanded to
search the knapsacks and bags of the gatherers. They confiscated
material, including CPSR applications, a copy of Mondo 2000 (a
magazine) and other material. They also confiscated film from a
person trying to take pictures of the guards and, when a hacker called
"HackRat" attempted to copy down the names of the guards, they took
his pencil and paper."
Neidorf continued, "I left to go outside and rejoined the group when
they were ejected from the mall. The guards continued challenging the
group and told them that they would be arrested if they returned. When
one of the people began to take pictures of the guards, the apparent
supervisor became excited and threatening but did not confiscate the
film."
Neidorf also said "I think that the raid was planned. They hit right
about 6:00 and they identified our group as "hackers" and said that
they knew that this group met every month."
Neidorf's story was supported by a Washington "hacker" called
"Inhuman", who told Newsbytes "I arrived at the meeting late and saw
the group being detained by the guards. I walked along with the group
as they were being ushered out and when I asked a person who seemed to
be in authority his name, he pointed at a badge with his name written
in script on it. I couldn't make out the name and, when I mentioned
that to the person, he said 'If you can't read it, too bad.' I did
read his name, 'C. Thomas', from another badge."
Inhuman also told Newsbytes that, while he did not hear it said, he
was told by a number of people that the guards said that they were
'acting on behalf of the Secret Service. "I was also told that there
were two police officers there from the Arlington County Police
present but I did not see them."
Another attendee, Doug Luce posted an account of his on an NY BBS and
gave Newsbytes permission to quote Luce wrote "I also got to the DC
meeting very late; 7:45 or so. It seemed like a coordinated harassment
episode, not geared toward busting anyone, but designed to get people
riled up, and maybe not come back to the mall. A couple of the things
I overheard: someone had brought a keyboard to sell, and the cops had
harassed him about it, saying 'You aren't selling anything in my mall
without a vendors permit!' Blaize (another attendee) says that maybe
his handcuffing Hack Rat might have set the cops off; or maybe it was
the Whisper 2000 that the cops were convinced was a stun gun. The word
is that there was stuff taken and not given back, wires and soldering
tools. There is also the rumor that the cops were going through
everyone's bags and belongings, and that some people were detained.
While the thrust of the effort seemed to be mall security, there are
conflicting reports about supporting personnel. Some people said that
the SS (Secret Service) might have been there, others thought the FBI
or plainclothes city officers were assisting (or coordinating).
Supposedly, several of them had removed their name tags before moving
in."
Luce's reference to possible Secret Service involvement was supported
by a 19 year-old college student known as the "Lithium Bandit", who
told Newsbytes "I got to the mall about 6:15 and saw the group being
detained by approximately 5 Arlington County police and 5 security
guards. When I walked over to see what was going on, a security guard
asked me for an ID and I refused to show it saying that I was about to
leave. The guard said that I couldn't leave and told me that I had to
see a police officer. When I did, the officer demanded ID and, when I
once again refused, informed me that I could be detained for up to 10
hours for refusing to produce identification. I gave in and produced
my school ID which the police gave to the security people who copied
down my name and social security number."
Lithium Bandit continued "When I asked the police what was behind this
action, I was told that they couldn't answer but that "the Secret
Service is involved and we are within our rights doing this. I and
some others later went to the Arlington police station to attempt to
get more information. I was told only that there was a report of the
use of a stolen credit card and 2 officers sent to investigate -- they
later admitted that it was 5. While I was detained, I heard no mention
of a credit card and there was no one arrested."
Marc Rotenberg, director of CPSR's Washington office, told Newsbytes
"I have really no details on the incident yet but I am very concerned
about the reports and confiscation of CPSR applications, if true, is
outrageous. I will find out more facts on Monday.
Newsbytes was told by the Pentagon City Mall office that any
information concerning the action would have to come from the director
of security, Al Johnson, who will not be available until Monday. The
Arlington Country Police referred Newsbytes to a "press briefing
recording" which had not been updated since the morning before the
incident.
Corley told Newsbytes "there have been no reports of misbehavior by
any of these people. They were obviously singled out because they were
hackers. It's as if they were being singled out as an ethnic group. I
admire the way the group responded -- in a courteous fashion but it is
inexcusable that it happened. I will be at the next Washington meeting
to insure that it doesn't happen again."
The manager of one of New York state's largest malls provided
background information to Newsbytes on the rights of malls to police
those on mall property, saying "The primary purpose of a mall is to
sell. The interior of the mall is private property and is subject to
the regulations of the mall. The only requirement is that the
regulations be enforced in an even-handed manner. I do not allow
political activities in my mall so I could not make an exception for
Democrats. We do allow community groups to meet but they must request
space at least two weeks before the meeting and must have proper
insurance. Our regulations also say that groups of more than 4 may not
congregate in the mall. We would ask groups larger than that to
disperse. We would also ask for identification from those who violate
our regulations so that we may bar them from the mall for a period of
6 months."
She added "Some people feel that mall atriums and food courts are
public space. They are not and the industry is united on this. If the
malls were to receive tax benefits for the common space and public
service in snow removal and the like, it could possibly be a public
area but malls are taxed on the entire space and are totally private
property, subject to their own regulations. If a group of 20 or more
congregated in my mall, they would be asked to leave."
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:17:35
From: jmcmul...@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: Confusion About Secret Service Role D.C. "Raid"
WASHINGTON, D.C., U.S.A., 1992 NOV 7 (NB) -- In the aftermath of an
action on Friday, November 6th by members of the Pentagon City Mall
Police and police from Arlington County, VA in which those attending a
2600 meeting at the mall were ordered from the premises, conflicting
stories continue to appear.
Attendees at the meeting have contended to Newsbytes that members of
the mall police told them that they were "acting on behalf of the
Secret Service.". They also maintain that the mall police confiscated
material from knapsacks and took film from someone attempting to
photograph the action and a list of the names of security officers
that one attendee was attempting to compile.
Al Johnson, chief of security for the mall, denied these allegations
to Newsbytes, saying "No one said that we were acting on behalf of the
Secret Service. We were merely enforcing our regulations. While the
group was not disruptive, it had pulled tables together and was having
a meeting in our food court area. The food court is for people eating
and is not for meetings. We therefore asked the people to leave."
Johnson denied that security personnel took away any film or lists and
further said "We did not confiscate any material. The group refused to
own up to who owned material on the tables and in the vicinity so we
collected it as lost material. If it turns out that anything did
belong to any of those people, they are welcome to come in and, after
making proper identification, take the material."
In a conversation early on November 9th, Robert Rasor, Secret Service
agent-in-charge of computer crime investigations, told Newsbytes that
having mall security forces represent the Secret Service is not
something that was done and, that to his knowledge, the Secret Service
had no involvement with any Pentagon City mall actions on the previous
Friday.
A Newsbytes call to the Arlington County police was returned by a
Detective Nuneville who said that her instructions were to refer all
questions concerning the matter to agent David Adams of the Secret
Service. She told Newsbytes that Adams would be providing all
information concerning the involvement of both the Arlington Police
and the Secret Service in the incident.
Adams told Newsbytes "The mall police were not acting as agents for
the Secret Service. Beyond that, I can not confirm or deny that there
is an ongoing investigation."
Adams also told Newsbytes that "While I cannot speak for the Arlington
police, I understand that their involvement was due to an incident
unrelated to the investigation."
Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington office of Computer
Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR), told Newsbytes "CPSR
has reason to believe that the detention of people at the Pentagon
City Mall last Friday was undertaken at the behest of the Secret
Service, which is a federal agency. If that is the case, then there
was an illegal search of people at the mall. There was no warrant and
no indication of probable illegal activity. This raises constitutional
issues. We have undertaken the filing of a Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) request to determine the scope, involvement and purpose of the
Secret Service in this action."
2600 meetings are held on the evening of the first Friday of each
month in public places and malls in New York City, Washington,
Philadelphia, Cambridge, St. Louis, Chicago, Los Angeles and San
Francisco. They are promoted by 2600 Magazine: The Hacker Quarterly
and are attended by a variety of persons interested in
telecommunications and so-called "hacker issues". The New York
meeting, the oldest of its kind, is regularly attended by Eric Corley
a/k/a Emmanuel Goldstein, editor and publisher of 2600, hackers,
journalists, corporate communications professionals and other
interested parties. It is known to have been the subject of
surveillance at various times by law enforcement agencies conducting
investigations into allegations of computer crime.
Corley told Newsbytes "While I'm sure that meetings have been observed
by law enforcement agencies, this is the only time that we have been
harassed. It's definitely a freedom of speech issue." Corley also that
he plans to be at the December meeting in Washington "to insure that
it doesn't happen again."
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:17:34
From: jmcmul...@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: Conflicting Stories In 2600 Raid; CRSR Files FOIA
WASHINGTON, D.C., U.S.A., 1992 NOV 11 (NB) -- In the on-going
investigation of possible Secret Service involvement in the Friday,
November 6th ejection of attendees at a "2600 meeting" from the
premises of the Pentagon City Mall, diametrically opposed statements
have come from the same source.
Al Johnson, chief of security for the Pentagon City Mall told
Newsbytes on Monday, November 9th "No one said that we were acting on
behalf of the Secret Service. We were merely enforcing our
regulations. While the group was not disruptive, it had pulled tables
together and was having a meeting in our food court area. The food
court is for people eating and is not for meetings. We therefore asked
the people to leave."
On the same day, Johnson was quoted was quoted in a Communications
Daily article by Brock Meeks as saying "As far as I'm concerned, we're
out of this. The Secret Service, the FBI, they're the ones that
ramrodded this whole thing."
Newsbytes contacted Meeks to discuss the discrepancies in the stories
and were informed that the conversation with Johnson had been taped
and was available for review. The Newsbytes reporter listened to the
tape (and reviewed a transcript). On the tape, Johnson was clearly
heard to make the statement quoted by Meeks.
He also said "maybe you outta call the Secret Service, they're
handling this whole thing. We, we were just here", and, in response
to a Meeks question about a Secret Service contact, "Ah.. you know, I
don't have a contact person. These people were working on their own,
undercover, we never got any names, but they definitely, we saw
identification, they were here."
Newsbytes contacted Johnson again on the morning of Wednesday,
November 11 and asked him once again whether there was any Secret
Service involvement in the action. Johnson said "No, I told you that
they were not involved." When it was mentioned that there was a story
in Communications Daily, quoting him to the contrary, Johnson said "I
never told Meeks that. There was no Secret Service involvement"
Informed of the possible existence of a tape quoting him to the
contrary. Johnson said "Meeks taped me? He can't do that. I'll show
him that I'm not fooling around. I'll have him arrested."
Johnson also said "He asked me if the Secret Service was involved; I
just told him that, if he thought they were, he should call them and
ask them."
Then Johnson again told Newsbytes that the incident was "just a mall
problem. There were too many people congregating."
[NOTE: Newsbytes stands by its accurate reporting of Johnson's
statements. It also affirms that the story by Meeks accurately
reflects the material taped during his interview]
In a related matter, Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington office
of Computer Professionals For Social Responsibility (CPSR) has
announced that CPSR has filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)
request with the Secret Service asking for information concerning
Secret Service involvement in the incident.
Rotenberg told Newsbytes that the Secret Service has 10 days to
respond to the request. He also said that CPSR "is exploring other
legal options in this matter."
The Secret Service, in earlier conversations with Newsbytes, has
denied that the mall security was working on its behalf.
In the incident itself, a group attending the informal meeting was
disbanded and, according to attendees, had property confiscated. They
also contend that security guards took film from someone photographing
the confiscation as well as a list that someone was making of the
guard's names. In his November 9th conversation with Newsbytes,
Johnson denied that security personnel took away any film or lists and
further said "We did not confiscate any material. The group refused to
own up to who owned material on the tables and in the vicinity so we
collected it as lost material. If it turns out that anything did
belong to any of those people, they are welcome to come in and, after
making proper identification, take the material."
2600 meetings are promoted by 2600 Magazine: The Hacker Quarterly and
are held on the evening of the first Friday of each month in public
places and malls in New York City, Washington, Philadelphia,
Cambridge, St. Louis, Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco. They
are regularly attended by a variety of persons interested in
telecommunications and so-called "hacker issues".
(Barbara E. McMullen & John F. McMullen/19921111)
Date: Wed 11 Nov 1992 19:34:56
From: Moderators<tk0j...@mvs.cso.niu.edu>
Subject: Transcript from Al Johnson Interview
((MODERATORS' NOTE: Al Johnson, Director of Security for the Pentagon
City Mall, has denied saying that the US Secret Service was involved
in the 2600 disruption, and he has given other news sources a
different version than he gave to Brock Meeks. The following are Al
Johnson's original comments as transcribed from the original
conversation. We leave it to readers to decide for themselves what Al
Johnson said in the initial interview.))
Further information may be obtained from Brock Meeks at:
(202) 872-9202 ex. 271; or
2115 Ward Ct. NW, Washington, DC 20037
+++++
Transcript of interview with Mr. Al Johnson, Dir. Security for
Pentagon City Mall
B. Meeks: I'd like to ask you a few questions about an incident where
some of your security guards broke up a meeting of some hackers
on Friday (Nov. 6).
Al Johnson: They broke up some meeting of hackers?
B. Meeks: Yes.
AJ: I don't know about breaking any meeting up. Who... first of
all I can't talk to you on the phone, if you want to come in, I
don't talk to the press on the phone.
B. Meeks: OK
AJ: Ahh... maybe you outta call the Secret Service, they're
handling this whole thing. We, we were just here.
B. Meeks: the Secret Service was part of this?
AJ: Well, FBI, Secret Service, everybody was here, so you might
want to call their office and talk to them. There's not much I
can really tell you here.
B. Meeks: OK
AJ: Our involvement was minimum, you know, minimal.
B. Meeks: I see, but your folks were acting on...
AJ: We didn't break anything... I.. we didn't.. as far as I
know, well I can't say much on the phone. But I, well,
somebody's awfully paranoid apparently. Where'd you get this
information from?
B. Meeks: Umm.... from computer bulletin boards
AJ: Bulletin Boards?
B. Meeks: Yep.
AJ: When did you get it?
B. Meeks: I got it, ah, Sunday night.
AJ: Sunday night?
B. Meeks: Yep.
AJ: [small laugh] Ah, yeah, you gotta call the FBI and the
Secret Service there's not much I can do for you here.
B. Meeks: Ok. Al, if I come down there will you talk to me to down
there?
AJ: No. I can't talk to you at all. Fact is, there's nothing
to talk about. Our involvement in anything was minimal, I don't
know where this information came from as far as bulletin boards,
and breaking meetin's up and you know...
B. Meeks: Well, the Arlington police were down there too. I mean I've
talked to several of the kids that were involved.
AJ: Um-hmmm
B. Meeks: They said, that ah, members of your, of the mall security
forces, ah, or security staff, searched them, confiscated some
material and didn't give it back. Did any of this happen?
AJ: Like I said, I'm not, I'm not able to talk to you... we have
a policy that we don't talk to the press about anything like
that. You can call the Secret Service, call the FBI, they're the
ones that ramrodded this whole thing, and you talk to them, we're
out of this basically, you know, as far as I'm concerned here.
B. Meeks: Ok. Is there a contact person over there that you can...
AJ: Ah.. you know, I don't have a contact person. These people
were working on their own, undercover, we never got any names,
but they definitely, we saw identification, they were here.
B. Meeks: They were there. So it was all the Secret Service and none
of your men?
AJ: Ah, nah, that's not what I said. But they're the ones you
want to talk to. There's nothing I can really ya. Okay?
B. Meeks: Okay.
AJ: Thanks.
B. Meeks: Bye.