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From: torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds)
Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
Subject: Free minix-like kernel sources for 386-AT
Keywords: 386, preliminary version
Message-ID: <1991Oct5.054106.4647@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
Date: 5 Oct 91 05:41:06 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 55


Do you pine for the nice days of minix-1.1, when men were men and wrote
their own device drivers? Are you without a nice project and just dying
to cut your teeth on a OS you can try to modify for your needs? Are you
finding it frustrating when everything works on minix? No more all-
nighters to get a nifty program working? Then this post might be just
for you :-)

As I mentioned a month(?) ago, I'm working on a free version of a
minix-lookalike for AT-386 computers.  It has finally reached the stage
where it's even usable (though may not be depending on what you want),
and I am willing to put out the sources for wider distribution.  It is
just version 0.02 (+1 (very small) patch already), but I've successfully
run bash/gcc/gnu-make/gnu-sed/compress etc under it. 

Sources for this pet project of mine can be found at nic.funet.fi
(128.214.6.100) in the directory /pub/OS/Linux.  The directory also
contains some README-file and a couple of binaries to work under linux
(bash, update and gcc, what more can you ask for :-).  Full kernel
source is provided, as no minix code has been used.  Library sources are
only partially free, so that cannot be distributed currently.  The
system is able to compile "as-is" and has been known to work.  Heh. 
Sources to the binaries (bash and gcc) can be found at the same place in
/pub/gnu. 

ALERT! WARNING! NOTE! These sources still need minix-386 to be compiled
(and gcc-1.40, possibly 1.37.1, haven't tested), and you need minix to
set it up if you want to run it, so it is not yet a standalone system
for those of you without minix. I'm working on it. You also need to be
something of a hacker to set it up (?), so for those hoping for an
alternative to minix-386, please ignore me. It is currently meant for
hackers interested in operating systems and 386's with access to minix.

The system needs an AT-compatible harddisk (IDE is fine) and EGA/VGA. If
you are still interested, please ftp the README/RELNOTES, and/or mail me
for additional info.

I can (well, almost) hear you asking yourselves "why?".  Hurd will be
out in a year (or two, or next month, who knows), and I've already got
minix.  This is a program for hackers by a hacker.  I've enjouyed doing
it, and somebody might enjoy looking at it and even modifying it for
their own needs.  It is still small enough to understand, use and
modify, and I'm looking forward to any comments you might have. 

I'm also interested in hearing from anybody who has written any of the
utilities/library functions for minix. If your efforts are freely
distributable (under copyright or even public domain), I'd like to hear
from you, so I can add them to the system. I'm using Earl Chews estdio
right now (thanks for a nice and working system Earl), and similar works
will be very wellcome. Your (C)'s will of course be left intact. Drop me
a line if you are willing to let me use your code.

		Linus

PS. to PHIL NELSON! I'm unable to get through to you, and keep getting
"forward error - strawberry unknown domain" or something.

Path: gmdzi!unido!urmel!rwthinf!gandalf!michael
From: mich...@gandalf.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Haardt)
Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
Subject: Re: [comp.os.minix] Free minix-like kernel sources for 386-AT
Message-ID: <9110072400@gandalf.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>
Date: 7 Oct 91 21:43:09 GMT
References: <1991Oct5.071651.9658@agate.berkeley.edu>
Sender: n...@rwthinf.UUCP
Reply-To: u31b...@rama.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Haardt)
Organization: Gandalf - a 386-20 machine
Lines: 53

torva...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds) writes:
> Do you pine for the nice days of minix-1.1, when men were men and wrote
> their own device drivers? Are you without a nice project and just dying
> to cut your teeth on a OS you can try to modify for your needs? Are you
> finding it frustrating when everything works on minix? No more all-
> nighters to get a nifty program working? Then this post might be just
> for you :-)
Wow!  Another real programmer has joined this group.

> I can (well, almost) hear you asking yourselves "why?".  Hurd will be
> out in a year (or two, or next month, who knows), and I've already got
> minix.  This is a program for hackers by a hacker.  I've enjouyed doing
> it, and somebody might enjoy looking at it and even modifying it for
> their own needs.  It is still small enough to understand, use and
> modify, and I'm looking forward to any comments you might have.
If it becomes a stand-alone system, I will quit MINIXing.  There is no
need to ask "why?".  Sure, MINIX 386 might by nice, if only there would
be official support.  At the moment, you have to ftp a lot to get a 386
system working with all needed utilities and nobody knows when there
will be the next offical version.  Most MINIX systems are in a twilight
zone, somewhere between 1.5 with heavy patches and 1.6.16 with patches.
The result is a mix of POSIX and system 7 and heaven know what else.
Not that I am not happy with that MINIX, but there is no announcement
which promises to set a new standard.  I even don't know exactly what
patches are in my kernel and in my header files, some time ago I stopped
counting.  I doubt that most of my programs will compile on plain 1.5,
which is what you can buy.  FvK's "Advanced MINIX" might had been a
way out, but it failed due to copyright reasons.

A friend of mine is currently doing this.  A small system which runs
without limitations of segments would be great.  Without PH copyright,
one can just give sources to someone else for explaining a feature or
discussing a new implementation, without these diffs and diffs to diffs
and diffs to ...

Summary: It depends on your ability to ftp, on the archive you use and
on your personal capabilities, which system you will get.

> I'm also interested in hearing from anybody who has written any of the
> utilities/library functions for minix. If your efforts are freely
> distributable (under copyright or even public domain), I'd like to hear
> from you, so I can add them to the system. I'm using Earl Chews estdio
> right now (thanks for a nice and working system Earl), and similar works
> will be very wellcome. Your (C)'s will of course be left intact. Drop me
> a line if you are willing to let me use your code.
I hadn't wrote something which might help you at this low level stage,
but once you reach the level of using it, you might look for a small
roff for man pages.  I would help you to port mroff, if you want to.
I hope that everybody else will help you with this project, it might be
a real alternative to MINIX.  What about setting up a mailing-list?  If
only enough people work on the library, it should be complete soon.

Michael

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!news.funet.fi!fuug!nntp.hut.fi!cs.hut.fi!arl
From: a...@cs.hut.fi (Ari Lemmke)
Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
Subject: Re: [comp.os.minix] Free minix-like kernel sources for 386-AT
Message-ID: <ARL.91Oct9051507@deathstar.hut.fi>
Date: 9 Oct 91 04:15:07 GMT
References: <1991Oct5.071651.9658@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<9110072400@gandalf.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>
Sender: use...@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Lines: 117
In-Reply-To: michael@gandalf.informatik.rwth-aachen.de's message of 7 
Oct 91 21:43:09 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: deathstar.cs.hut.fi


In article <9110072...@gandalf.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> 
mich...@gandalf.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Haardt) writes:
>	If it becomes a stand-alone system, I will quit MINIXing.

	Me too ;-)

torva...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds) writes:
>>	I can (well, almost) hear you asking yourselves "why?".

	I have been thinking of doing it (and partially actually
	did), but had no guts to do the whole work ...

>	There is no need to ask "why?".  Sure, MINIX 386 might by
>	nice, if only there would be official support.

	Official support means you have
		1)	Product
		2)	Team to support it

	Case 1 is easy, but for the case 2 I can not say the same ...
	They have to eat too ;-) i.e. work hard and get some
	salary too. Then they need shops etc. to sell the
	product/support.

	I don't need any "official support" .. the magical
	words mean ugly things to me. I have SEEN Sun's
	official support ;-)

>	At the moment, you have to ftp a lot to get a 386
>	system working with all needed utilities and nobody knows when
>	there will be the next offical version.

	Network anarchy is the best official support.
	There certainly will be many unofficial good patches
	to Linux at nic.funet.fi. I try to keep them in
	good order.

>	Most MINIX systems are in a twilight zone, somewhere between
>	1.5 with heavy patches and 1.6.16 with patches.

	Yes, but that's because they are "officially
	suppiorted" patches .. NOT the whole sources.
	I try to keep also whole patched sources available.

	I do remember how I personally spent about 20 hours
	to patch 1.2 to 1.3d - but most of it was fooling
	around ftp bug (had to split it, and again split the
	splitted parts etc. after some real hacking ...).

>	The result is a mix of POSIX and system 7 and heaven know what
>	else. Not that I am not happy with that MINIX, but there is no
>	announcement which promises to set a new standard.

	There are/were many things which cause/caused this.
	Andy didn't like to have "bignix", wanted to keep the
	systems first plain PC/XT (8088) level and as floppy
	system.

	I have been using Minix as a teaching too. But but but,
	it's really hard/unusable for that ! It takes too much
	time to fool around the kernel for a student, like
	if the work is to do simple driver to kernel .. the
	poor student has to make changes to million places around
	header/source files. And when another poor student
	makes a simple driver .. eh eh .. and you want to
	have one kernel with both drivers in it ...

	Some of the best are available at cs.hut.fi:pub/minix

	Also making Minix more commercial is not good thing;
	people like I don't want to make any commercial
	product better for other people to buy it. Nothing
	against dealing or getting money out of software,
	but others to gain my coding need to buy the product.

>	Without PH copyright, one can just give sources to someone
>	else for explaining a feature or discussing a new
>	implementation, without these diffs and diffs to diffs and
>	diffs to ...

	You need always diffs to some level ;-)

	I wouldn't read the whole sources to find out how
	a feature is implemented.

>	Summary: It depends on your ability to ftp, on the archive you
>	use and on your personal capabilities, which system you will
>	get.

	Linux is now certainly for hackers only.

>	What about setting up a mailing-list?

	Now we have mailing list for Linux, it's:

		Linux-activi...@niksula.hut.fi

	And please, DO REMEMBER, REQUESTS to:

		Linux-activists-requ...@niksula.hut.fi

	Otherwise I will @@%$#@$#!$ you ;-)

	Net etiquette is to send requests to mailing-list-request
	address, otherwise thousands of people on mailing list
	will read your "please add me" etc. postings.

>	If only enough people work on the library, it should be
>	complete soon.

	I think libraries are ready in couple of months.
	But help is welcome !
	

>	Michael

	arl

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!
extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU!chrisa
From: chr...@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (C. G. Albone)
Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
Subject: Re: [comp.os.minix] Free minix-like kernel sources for 386-AT
Message-ID: <3255@cluster.cs.su.oz.au>
Date: 28 Oct 91 10:54:57 GMT
References: <68151@nigel.ee.udel.edu>
Sender: n...@cluster.cs.su.oz.au
Organization: Uni Computing Service, Uni of Sydney, Australia
Lines: 7

Hello all..
	I missed the original posting, so could someone please tell me
how I may obtain the sources.

Thanx

chris.

Path: gmdzi!zeus.ieee.org!europa.asd.contel.com!uunet!mcsun!fuug!demos!
relcom!news-server
From: mo...@inzer.demos.su (Oleg Moroz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
Subject: Re: Re: [comp.os.minix] Free minix-like kernel sources for 386-AT
Message-ID: <AA7ig3fuR5@inzer.demos.su>
Date: 30 Oct 91 12:52:23 GMT
References: <3255@cluster.cs.su.oz.au>
Sender: news-ser...@kiae.su
Reply-To: mo...@inzer.demos.su
Organization: Steepler Ltd.
Lines: 19


  chr...@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (C. G. Albone) writes:
>
>Hello all..
>	I missed the original posting, so could someone please tell me
>how I may obtain the sources.
>

  And me too !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  Also, are them available via e-mail (mail server or smth), as I'm
in the former Soviet Union and can't do any FTP.

  Thanks, 
  Oleg
-- 
* Oleg Moroz               Surface address: P.O.Box 30, 103031, Moscow, USSR *
* Software Designer        Internet address:            mo...@inzer.demos.su *
* Steepler Ltd.            Phone:    +007 (092) 214-81-92, 245-21-94 (voice) *
* "I've looked over jordan and I've seen/Things are not what they seem" - PF *

Path: gmdzi!zeus.ieee.org!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!
gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!torvalds
From: torva...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds)
Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
Subject: Re: [comp.os.minix] Free minix-like kernel sources for 386-AT
Summary: Still only ftp
Message-ID: <1991Oct31.101252.13981@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
Date: 31 Oct 91 10:12:52 GMT
References: <3255@cluster.cs.su.oz.au> <AA7ig3fuR5@inzer.demos.su>
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 50

In article <AA7ig3f...@inzer.demos.su> mo...@inzer.demos.su writes:
>chr...@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (C. G. Albone) writes:
>>Hello all..
>>	I missed the original posting, so could someone please tell me
>>how I may obtain the sources.
>  And me too !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>  Also, are them available via e-mail (mail server or smth), as I'm
>in the former Soviet Union and can't do any FTP.

Ok, as I've gotten quite a few questions, I guess I'd better follow up
again.

Linux is currently ONLY available via ftp from nic.funet.fi, directory
/pub/OS/Linux. As the sources change rather rapidly (next release due
out this weekend after I have tested some more), it is also currently
impractical to make them available from other places. There is a
mail-server possibility fron nic, but I think it's still in testing (you
could try mailing "mailser...@nic.funet.fi" with "help" in the body,
but I don't know if it will work).

Linux is a full kernel that has so far worked on a number (5-10?) of
at-386 (and one 486 as far as I know). It supports GNU cc (gcc), bash
and some other free stuff. It is currently more of a hackers kernel (and
minix-386 is needed, but that will change with this weeks release), and
the current version number is 0.03 (next is 0.10 I think).

Good things about linux:

- it's free, full source, and I try to correct bugs you find.
- it's a bit faster than minix, I think.
- uses paging for memory management (not to disk yet)
- multithreaded fs (but then you can get patches to minix that do
similar stuff)
- mostly full termios and vt100-console.
- most things easy to port (easier than to minix).

Bad points:

- ONLY 386/486
- early versions: there might be lots of bugs, and you might need to
port/hack things to work.
- minix is recommended even for the upcoming version that doesn't
absolutely need it.
- currently only VGA (EGA?) support, limited keyboard drivers (US and
Finnish) etc

You can mail me for more info. "finger torva...@kruuna.helsinki.fi"
might tell you something too.

		Linus (torva...@kruuna.helsinki.fi)