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Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Path: sparky!uunet!think.com!cass.ma02.bull.com!mips2!bubba!sje
From: s...@xylos.ma30.bull.com (Steven J. Edwards)
Subject: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Reply-To: s...@xylos.ma30.bull.com
Organization: Bull HN, Worldwide Information Systems, Billerica, Mass., USA
Distribution: comp
Date: 2 Nov 92 18:20:10
Message-ID: <SJE.92Nov2182010@xylos.ma30.bull.com>
Sender: n...@mips2.ma30.bull.com (Usenet News Manager)
Lines: 62

Of course, the following is probably just my totally biased opinion,
but as I really do use Coherent for business and research purposes, I
would like to state what I think should be the priorities in upcoming
4.0 features.

First, I have no doubt that nifty newsreader software and the ever
more sophisticated UUCP upgrades are popular topics.  In fact, they
seem to be getting the majority of the commentary.  But they are not
the items that are going to get Coherent more acceptance in its market
niche (low cost Unix style development and application systems).

Second, while having a sophisticated GUI and the like is interesting,
no one should delude themselves into thinking that they are going to
get a full blown SCO style X Window environment for either the current
size or price levels of Coherent 4.0.  Note that I do not doubt that
MWC could eventually produce an SCO clone, but what would be the
point?  By the time they got there, their price would probably be
pretty close to SCO itself while SCO functionality had moved forward
in the interim.

Third, most large vendors today have recognized that it's a
multiplayer commercial environment and interoperability is the
watchword of the day.  To help achieve this, most developer machines
support networking out of the box (LocalTalk, various Ethernet
standards) or with a single ISA network card.  Coherent can use none
of these as of yet.  And it's not all high priced coax, either; I have
a three node AppleTalk network using TurboNET ST adaptors (US$15 each
including cabling) that has all kinds of third party software and
hardware support.  I can hook this up to my 486 PC for the price of a
LocalTalk ISA card and another network adaptor; but I can't use it
from Coherent because Coherent doesn't understand AppleTalk because
there's no driver for the card or the appropriate run time library
support.  The only cheaper network for multinode (more than two)
system is ol' Sneakernet, well known to Coherent users.  I think that
AppleTalk protocol and LocalTalk hardware support would be a big win
for Coherent users as it would support the needs for the various
network software services while also allowing the easy integration of
third party items (like AppleTalk laser printers).  Even IBM makes
LocalTalk peripherals!  Yes, 10 Mbps Ethernet is nice, but for those
with only US$100 budgets for oeprating systems, it's probably out of
reach.

Fourth, and my apologies in advance for reiterating my view of this,
is the glaring absence of an ANSI C compiler.  Now, the current
Coherent cc is a nice program and it does its job well.  It is very
fast and can run in tight resource environments.  But I think that its
heyday has since passed by and the ratio of ANSI C vs. old C is
increasing every day.  Now the average code hacker may not care much
about this point, but those of us actually using Coherent in
production work need ANSI support.  Indeed, I have often expressed my
view that those developers that don't want to use the ANSI standard
should not be paid as it is the least to be expected nowadays with
respect to coding standards.

Well, that's enough soapbox talk from me for quite a while.  Thanks
for reading this far.

 [The above opinions expressed are my own; not necessarily held by others.]
      == Steven J. Edwards           Bull HN Information Systems Inc. ==
      == (508) 294-3484              300 Concord Road         MS 820A ==
      == s...@xylos.ma30.bull.com     Billerica, MA 01821          USA ==
"That Government which Governs the Least, Governs Best." -- Thomas Jefferson

Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Path: sparky!uunet!uunet.ca!geac!r-node!csoft!gerald
From: ger...@csoft.UUCP (Gerald Abshez)
Subject: Re: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Message-ID: <9211252048.20@csoft.UUCP>
Organization: Hmmm, have to get some.
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1992 01:48:13 GMT
Reply-To: ger...@csoft.UUCP (Gerald Abshez)
References: <9211141439.AA11502@PCS.CNU.EDU> <9211150356.AA12212@PCS.CNU.EDU>
Lines: 65

In article <9211150356.AA12...@PCS.CNU.EDU> "Coherent operating system" 
<COHER...@indycms.bitnet> writes:
>
>	Well, people are saying that we should expect all that neato stuff
>for Coherent because it only cost $100.  Hmmmmm...  I expect, and get, all
>of that from Linux and it is free...

Yes, but Linux is a compilation effort; you even said yourself that it
is crazy to expect to write software for free... and unix is a *big*
piece of software.

>  Fact is, with Linux and some others,
>you don't need any kind of device driver kit to write drivers and stuff
>for it.  Plus, no one hides information about Linux as MWC seems to do
>about the internals of Coherent.  No better way to alienate developers
>than to limit information about your OS.  Sucessful OS's have almost always
>had lots of detailed information available to programmers.

Hmm, free information and toolkits produce developers? Quick, you'd
better run over to MS and tell them that windows is failure then! :-)
It's customer acceptance, not info available, that lures programmers
to a market. And let's face it: at the price it is, the DDK isn't 
that expensive.

>They just need to advertise it more, provide *VERY* detailed and generous
>information about it, and get that device driver kit out.  Heavy duty
>courting of universities and companies would help too.  Copies to students
>and professors with device driver kit and some development stuff for around
>half price would help too.

Well, I agree that they should give out info more freely, but most
universities won't blink at COH. First, most have the source to BSD
or SYSV somewhere, and the PC's are cheaper to run on DOS.

>  If a student can get Linux (which is almost
>good enought to give to a newbie now, I have) for free with great compilers,
>X11R5, networking, etc. or Coherent with none of that for $100 what do you
>think he/she will do?

And you think that a newbie with no money would buy COH for $50 instead
of getting linux for free? 

>  Plus, MWC would be buying votes later on when that
>student gets a job and his boss says "What OS do you recommend?"  If MWC
>gives a little when he is a student, he might be more inclined to use it
>at work.  Apple is doing this now (although they are still too dang much...)
>and UNIX owes its rising popularity to the fact that students used it for
>free in college and now work in influential positions throughout
>corporate america.  

True, but who says that the students could convince their employers
to buy into COH? There are a _lot_ of flavours of unix out there.

>IBM and Msoft would like to kill UNIX but I wonder if
>they can...

Really? I guess that accounts for MS's name being on a number of the
PC ports of Unix, and for IBM having AIX on the RS/6000 series. The
way those guys can fool ya! :-)

TC...Gerald
-- 
---
csoft!ger...@r-node.gts.org, ger...@csoft.uucp
^-- Use this one - more reliable.
Right smack in the middle of Toronto, Ontario | Go JAYS Go!!!

Path: sparky!uunet!think.com!ames!ig!pcs.cnu.edu!shendrix
From: shend...@PCS.CNU.EDU ("", Shannon Hendrix)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Message-ID: <9211272132.AA21339@PCS.CNU.EDU>
Date: 27 Nov 92 21:33:06 GMT
References: <9211271905.AA21109@PCS.CNU.EDU>
Sender: dae...@presto.ig.com
Reply-To: "Coherent operating system" <COHER...@indycms.bitnet>
Lines: 128

>
> Yes, but Linux is a compilation effort; you even said yourself that it
> is crazy to expect to write software for free... and unix is a *big*
> piece of software.

	Yes, but you can get the SLS (Softlanding System) version of
Linux and its pretty easy now.  I just got it (the newest one) and it
took about 30 minutes to install.  Its getting much better now, though
the kernel source does become an enemyfriend at times.

	I may rethink what I said about GNU.  Its still sounds real
crazy but I have been thinking that the future is going to require more
and more sharing of information for humanity to advance (and survive...).
Maybe then, GNU is the right idea... who knows...

> Hmm, free information and toolkits produce developers? Quick, you'd
> better run over to MS and tell them that windows is failure then! :-)
> It's customer acceptance, not info available, that lures programmers
> to a market. And let's face it: at the price it is, the DDK isn't
> that expensive.

	Microsoft's stuff was horribly organized and their compilers
where absolute yuck.  But, the information was definitely there and in
great quantities.  Otherwise, no one would have been able to write all
that fancy code.  Anyway, marketing muscle and ignorance is what sold
Windows so I guess it wouldn't have mattered.

	You're right.  The DDK isn't that expensive.  But I have faced
that as a complaint from people I was trying to show Coherent off to and
I though I'd advance an idea about giving it away.  It was wrong.  If
people don't want it I guess I really can't convince them.  Of course, I
did get some people at TWUUG (Tidewater Unix Users Group) to buy it so
some people listened.  Been making quite a few copies of Linux too.
The University I attend has finally given me a 386 with twin 40 meg
hard drives for Linux and they might upgrade their Coherent to the
386 version (I'm pushing that, but not hard enough to aggravate them...).
Some professors cannot get a machine so I consider this an unexpected
luxury.  I'll have Linux on our net (dare I push that much??? :-).  Don't
know about Coherent, faculty balked on that one I think, though I'll still
try even though Linux has a foothold.


> Well, I agree that they should give out info more freely, but most
> universities won't blink at COH. First, most have the source to BSD
> or SYSV somewhere, and the PC's are cheaper to run on DOS.

	I don't think most universities have BSD source.  Only the really
big ones.  There are thousands of universities nationwide and I'd say only
a few of the biggest (or most computer-active) have a Unix license.  Our
school sure doesn't.  I live near William and Mary and I don't believe
they do.  So, it seems likely that some might still use Coh for Unix
programming, classes at least, if not research projects and software
development.  I've used Linux to write software for the Sun workstations
and since Linux runs faster than our overworked, Open Look infested
Sparcstations its much better that way (Open Look and NeWS are terrible
memory, graphics, and processor hogs...).  I don't find the lack of
Display Postscript to be a bother.

> And you think that a newbie with no money would buy COH for $50 instead
> of getting linux for free?

	The ones I've talked to said something along those lines.  Maybe
they are being cheap, who knows.  I've seen some buy used copies of
software because it had a manual and was a little cheaper even if something
was available for free but had no manual.

	Its no big deal at our school now since I've been given, for the
time being, a system to use for Linux and I'll be able to write documentation
for students to get it up and running.  Even a newbie could use it once
I get it "civilized" a little more.

	But, I see your point.  Most people would still balk.  Besides,
I just noticed an ad for Linux for $99 (copying fee?).  Softlanding sells
it for $3.50 a disk or $99 too, for those without net access.  But, if
you are patient, you can usually get it for free from someone (like me).

> True, but who says that the students could convince their employers
> to buy into COH? There are a _lot_ of flavours of unix out there.

	True.  But I'd still like to see it happen.  Actually, I guess
the best bet here is for people to get Coh put into small businesses
that need database applications and custom multi-user software at
inexpensive prices (and inexpensive OS and hardware).

> Really? I guess that accounts for MS's name being on a number of the
> PC ports of Unix, and for IBM having AIX on the RS/6000 series. The
> way those guys can fool ya! :-)

	Yeah they can.  IBM would like to kill Unix so they can sell
you their brain-dead version.  If you read much in the magazines
(I know, often a waste of time...) it still seems like IBM wants to
make people forget about Unix.  Its so confusing.  I've heard IBM
spokespeople criticize Unix to promote OS/2 and then I hear about
OS/2 running on top of Mach, on the same machine with Unix.

	Microsoft, there is a puzzle.  NT is, according to Bill Gates,
"Not like Unix, It *IS* Unix."  So what is the point?  I don't want
Windows apps running under Unix...ick!  But, I'm sure they will sell
millions of copies so maybe I'll get that developers edition and...

	Aren't you confused about just how IBM and Microsoft feel
toward Unix?  They both hurt it and help it at the same time.  Now
that vendors are starting to agree on Unix, maybe they will be forced
to fall in line.  Did you hear that Solaris II is basically SVR4 now?
They are shedding their BSDisms to favor the emerging standards.  I
guess that's good, isn't it? :-)  Actually, I think it is.

>
> TC...Gerald
> --
> ---
> csoft!ger...@r-node.gts.org, ger...@csoft.uucp
> ^-- Use this one - more reliable.
> Right smack in the middle of Toronto, Ontario | Go JAYS Go!!!
>

	I've just read that the DDK is out now.  Great.  Just hope the
next release of Coh comes real soon after!  Only problem is, I'm kinda
hooked on Linux and may stick with it until I can get all the stuff I
need running on Coherent.  Even then, I'll use both most likely.  Then
DOS will be nothing but a partition of games...


=====================================================
Shannon Hendrix                |shend...@pcs.cnu.edu
Christopher Newport University |---------------------
Newport News, VA               |** space for rent **
=====================================================

Path: sparky!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!spcvxb!ritz!ritz
From: r...@ritz.mordor.com (Christopher Mauritz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent,comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Message-ID: <921127868@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: 28 Nov 92 11:52:41 GMT
References: <9211272132.AA21339@PCS.CNU.EDU>
Organization: Ritz International, Inc. -- Import/Export Consultants
Lines: 70
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

[xposted to comp.os.linux]

, Shannon Hendrix (shend...@PCS.CNU.EDU) wrote:
: >
: > Yes, but Linux is a compilation effort; you even said yourself that it
: > is crazy to expect to write software for free... and unix is a *big*
: > piece of software.
: 
: 	Yes, but you can get the SLS (Softlanding System) version of
: Linux and its pretty easy now.  I just got it (the newest one) and it
: took about 30 minutes to install.  Its getting much better now, though
: the kernel source does become an enemyfriend at times.

Will this cohabitate with OS/2?  How complex is it compared to 
Coherent?

: 	I don't think most universities have BSD source.  Only the really
: big ones.  There are thousands of universities nationwide and I'd say only
: a few of the biggest (or most computer-active) have a Unix license.  Our
: school sure doesn't.  I live near William and Mary and I don't believe

I don't think this is true at all.  I would think that any university
having a computer science degree that is worth its salt would probably
have the source.

: > And you think that a newbie with no money would buy COH for $50 instead
: > of getting linux for free?
: 
: 	The ones I've talked to said something along those lines.  Maybe
: they are being cheap, who knows.  I've seen some buy used copies of
: software because it had a manual and was a little cheaper even if something
: was available for free but had no manual.

You could probably place me in that category.  The reason I chose Coherent
over Linux and/or BSD386 was the fact that it comes with a big fat reference
manual and a telephone number to call if I get into trouble <grin>.

: 	But, I see your point.  Most people would still balk.  Besides,
: I just noticed an ad for Linux for $99 (copying fee?).  Softlanding sells
: it for $3.50 a disk or $99 too, for those without net access.  But, if
: you are patient, you can usually get it for free from someone (like me).

Everytime Coherent blows up on me I'm tempted (since I have FTP access)
give Linux or BSD a try, but I think I'm not quite comfortable with
unix yet to take the plunge.  I'm waiting for them to get a few more
of the bugs out.  God bless all those thousands of hackers out there
who are willing to risk the contents of their hard disk all for the
joy of thumbing their noses at AT&T. :-)

: 	I've just read that the DDK is out now.  Great.  Just hope the
: next release of Coh comes real soon after!  Only problem is, I'm kinda
: hooked on Linux and may stick with it until I can get all the stuff I
: need running on Coherent.  Even then, I'll use both most likely.  Then
: DOS will be nothing but a partition of games...

I would be very interested in hearing more about your "civilized"
version of Linux.  I suppose I should add comp.os.linux to my newsfeed
so I can keep up with the latest developments.

Question:  How much disk space does it require?

Best regards,

Chris

--
Christopher Mauritz                 | My views reflect those of my
r...@ritz.mordor.com                | company since I own the company.
ritz%ritz.mordor....@spcvxa.spc.edu | Ritz International, Inc.
{backbone}!rutgers!spcvxb!ritz!ritz | Import/Export Consultants

Path: sparky!uunet!olivea!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!biosci!ig!pcs.cnu.edu!shendrix
From: shend...@PCS.CNU.EDU ("", Shannon Hendrix)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Message-ID: <9211281740.AA22868@PCS.CNU.EDU>
Date: 28 Nov 92 17:40:22 GMT
References: <9211281414.AA22697@PCS.CNU.EDU>
Sender: dae...@presto.ig.com
Reply-To: "Coherent operating system" <COHER...@indycms.bitnet>
Lines: 109

> Will this cohabitate with OS/2?  How complex is it compared to
> Coherent?

	If you use LILO, LILO can boot *ANY* operating system.  LILO is
a loader program for Linux systems and its very good.  Linux is more
complex than Coherent.  Its just about like a real Sys V Unix.  It has
paged vitual memory (I have an 8 meg swap file...), over 400 utilities,
and lots more.  Coherent will have all this someday but why wait?  When I
do something at school with the Sun Sparcs its nice to be able to bring it
home.

> I don't think this is true at all.  I would think that any university
> having a computer science degree that is worth its salt would probably
> have the source.

	Sorry, but its true.  Unix licenses are extremely expensive.  Up
around $100,000 I believe.  Plenty of schools can't afford that.  Plus,
there are lots of good schools that don't so...  With free code now
available why bother?

> You could probably place me in that category.  The reason I chose Coherent
> over Linux and/or BSD386 was the fact that it comes with a big fat reference
> manual and a telephone number to call if I get into trouble <grin>.

	Well, I just send mail to around 500 active linuxers and my questions
are answered faster than MWC usually answers.  The manual for Coh is nice...
I use it for Linux all the time (grin).

> Everytime Coherent blows up on me I'm tempted (since I have FTP access)
> give Linux or BSD a try, but I think I'm not quite comfortable with
> unix yet to take the plunge.  I'm waiting for them to get a few more
> of the bugs out.  God bless all those thousands of hackers out there
> who are willing to risk the contents of their hard disk all for the
> joy of thumbing their noses at AT&T. :-)

	Actually, Linux is more reliable on my system.  Coh trashed my
hard drive three times and always booted up with errors that fdisk had
to fix.  I often shut Linux down with just a sync and its fine.  Not
one single solitary file system error since I put it online a month
or so ago.

	I don't blame you about the bugs.  I might have even stuck with
Coherent but Linux has more software and has software that I needed to
use.  I think it was that that made me switch more than anything, lack of
software I wanted for Coh.

	I keep waiting hopefully for the first post 1.0 version of Linux
and full SysV/Posix compatibility.  I wonder if Linux will ever have COFF
binaries.  Of course, with source code, who cares?  Most commercial software
is out of reach anyway (pricewise) which limits the usefulness of Coh's
sorta-COFF compatibility.


> I would be very interested in hearing more about your "civilized"
> version of Linux.  I suppose I should add comp.os.linux to my newsfeed
> so I can keep up with the latest developments.
>
> Question:  How much disk space does it require?

	Its not civilized in that respect :-).  My system is around 60
megs.  Here is what I have (major packages...).

1) X11R5	Huge, what can I say?
2) TeX		ditto
3) gtroff	sorta ditto
4) GNU utils	3-400 of them
5) X Games	XTetris is great!  Wasteful, but great!
6) CLisp	could do without it...
7) GCC C++ 2.2.2d	great compiler, Coh needs this bad!!!!
8) static libs
   shared libs
9) system monitors
10) TCP/IP	Coherent needs this, though some might disagree.

All I can think of.  Actually, 60 megs is not bad for all that stuff.  Plus
I have over 10 megs of textfiles which brings the system down to 50.

The sysadmin where I go to school has assigned a 386 system with twin 40
meg drives.  Kinda small but its hard for a professor to get stuff around
here so I am not even going to whimper!  I might get a 66mhz 486 for a
faculty presentation (of Linux).  Gotta make it look real good ya know!
They balked at Coherent, so I'm hitting them up for Linux since it could be
used for the OS classes (we use Minix right now...).

>
> Best regards,
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Christopher Mauritz                 | My views reflect those of my
> r...@ritz.mordor.com                | company since I own the company.
> ritz%ritz.mordor....@spcvxa.spc.edu | Ritz International, Inc.
> {backbone}!rutgers!spcvxb!ritz!ritz | Import/Export Consultants
>

	Send mail to niksula.hut.fi with and empty message for a doc
file on how to subscribe to the linux-activists mail group.  Most of
the posts are troubleshooting and bug fixes/pleas for help.  Also,
there is lots of info on tsx-11.mit.edu.  If you don't have a feed
though... guess that's outta the question.  I'm pasting the new FAQ
together if you want me to mail it to you...


=====================================================
Shannon Hendrix                |shend...@pcs.cnu.edu
Christopher Newport University |---------------------
Newport News, VA               |** space for rent **
=====================================================

Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Path: sparky!uunet!think.com!unixland!rmkhome!rmk
From: r...@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Organization: The Man With Ten Cats
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 03:31:25 GMT
Reply-To: r...@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Message-ID: <9211282231.27@rmkhome.UUCP>
References: <9211281414.AA22697@PCS.CNU.EDU> <9211281740.AA22868@PCS.CNU.EDU>
Lines: 130

In article <9211281740.AA22...@PCS.CNU.EDU> "Coherent operating system" 
<COHER...@indycms.bitnet> writes:
>> Will this cohabitate with OS/2?  How complex is it compared to
>> Coherent?
>
>	If you use LILO, LILO can boot *ANY* operating system.  LILO is
>a loader program for Linux systems and its very good.  Linux is more
>complex than Coherent.  Its just about like a real Sys V Unix.  It has
>paged vitual memory (I have an 8 meg swap file...), over 400 utilities,
>and lots more.  Coherent will have all this someday but why wait?  When I
>do something at school with the Sun Sparcs its nice to be able to bring it
>home.

Coherent 4.0 is very close to real SVR3.2 UNIX.  Close enough to run SVR3.2
binaries and commercial binaries.  Can Linux do that?

I have clients who have SCO UNIX runtime.  I can compile code on my Coherent
system, and then run it on their system.

Linux isn't binsry compatible with anything except a limited handful of
programs with the Xenix emulator.  Binary compatibility can vary from one
Linux system to the next, since there are various incompatible version of 
the shared libraries floating around.

My Coherent system has around 400 utilities and commands.

Coherent 4.1 will have TCP/IP and very likely demand paging.

Cray systems running UNIX don't have demand paging.

>> I don't think this is true at all.  I would think that any university
>> having a computer science degree that is worth its salt would probably
>> have the source.
>
>	Sorry, but its true.  Unix licenses are extremely expensive.  Up
>around $100,000 I believe.  Plenty of schools can't afford that.  Plus,
>there are lots of good schools that don't so...  With free code now
>available why bother?

Educational licenses for schools are priced differently.

>> You could probably place me in that category.  The reason I chose Coherent
>> over Linux and/or BSD386 was the fact that it comes with a big fat reference
>> manual and a telephone number to call if I get into trouble <grin>.
>
>	Well, I just send mail to around 500 active linuxers and my questions
>are answered faster than MWC usually answers.  The manual for Coh is nice...
>I use it for Linux all the time (grin).

What about the poor sob who buys a pc to run Linux and it won't boot on
his machine?

>> Everytime Coherent blows up on me I'm tempted (since I have FTP access)
>> give Linux or BSD a try, but I think I'm not quite comfortable with
>> unix yet to take the plunge.  I'm waiting for them to get a few more
>> of the bugs out.  God bless all those thousands of hackers out there
>> who are willing to risk the contents of their hard disk all for the
>> joy of thumbing their noses at AT&T. :-)
>
>	Actually, Linux is more reliable on my system.  Coh trashed my
>hard drive three times and always booted up with errors that fdisk had
>to fix.  I often shut Linux down with just a sync and its fine.  Not
>one single solitary file system error since I put it online a month
>or so ago.

I've have run Coherent 3.1.0, 3.2.0, 3.2.1a, 4.0 Alpha, 4.0 beta, and the
final release of Coherent 4.0 on my machine with an Adaptec SCSI controller.
I've never had a trashed file system, and fsck usually only needs to run when
there is an odd event like a power outage hitting my house while the machine
is running a lot of disk bound processes.

>	I don't blame you about the bugs.  I might have even stuck with
>Coherent but Linux has more software and has software that I needed to
>use.  I think it was that that made me switch more than anything, lack of
>software I wanted for Coh.

About the only things that can't run on Coherent are X11 related.

>	I keep waiting hopefully for the first post 1.0 version of Linux
>and full SysV/Posix compatibility.  I wonder if Linux will ever have COFF
>binaries.  Of course, with source code, who cares?  Most commercial software
>is out of reach anyway (pricewise) which limits the usefulness of Coh's
>sorta-COFF compatibility.

Coherent has 100% COFF compatibility.

You have to have source code for Linux because there are so many different
versions out there.

>> I would be very interested in hearing more about your "civilized"
>> version of Linux.  I suppose I should add comp.os.linux to my newsfeed
>> so I can keep up with the latest developments.
>>
>> Question:  How much disk space does it require?

>2) TeX		ditto
>3) gtroff	sorta ditto
>4) GNU utils	3-400 of them  ( I don't think there are that many GNU 
                                 utilities, and note that I have an 
                                 account at GNU, as well as ftp access to
                                 prep.ai.mit.edu )

>6) CLisp	could do without it...

Stuff above is all easily portable to Coherent.

>7) GCC C++ 2.2.2d	great compiler, Coh needs this bad!!!!

GCC C++ is fully compatible with the AT&T spec for C++, which is the only
standard.  The forthcoming ANSI C++ standard will mirror AT&T.

>10) TCP/IP	Coherent needs this, though some might disagree.

Coherent 4.1.

>All I can think of.  Actually, 60 megs is not bad for all that stuff.  Plus
>I have over 10 megs of textfiles which brings the system down to 50.
>
>The sysadmin where I go to school has assigned a 386 system with twin 40
>meg drives.  Kinda small but its hard for a professor to get stuff around
>here so I am not even going to whimper!  I might get a 66mhz 486 for a
>faculty presentation (of Linux).  Gotta make it look real good ya know!
>They balked at Coherent, so I'm hitting them up for Linux since it could be
>used for the OS classes (we use Minix right now...).

Linux isn't much good for OS classes without complete, detailed, professionally
written documentation.

-- 

Rick Kelly	r...@rmkhome.UUCP	unixland!rmkhome!rmk	r...@frog.UUCP

Path: sparky!uunet!ornl!rsg1.er.usgs.gov!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
usc!cheshire.oxy.edu!mcws!techsys!berk
From: b...@techsys.mcws.fidonet.org (Berk Walker)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Message-ID: <Ha3ZuB9w165w@techsys.mcws.fidonet.org>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 92 04:09:28 PST
References: <9211282231.27@rmkhome.UUCP>
Organization: Private for Now
Lines: 9

> 
> I've have run Coherent 3.1.0, 3.2.0, 3.2.1a, 4.0 Alpha, 4.0 beta, and the
> final release of Coherent 4.0 on my machine with an Adaptec SCSI controller.
> I've never had a trashed file system, and fsck usually only needs to run when
..H.J.LU (GCC GUY
) trashed his fs on 0.98.  but, what's a fs 'twixt friends, eh?

Berk Walker                           b...@techsys.mcws.fidonet.org

Path: sparky!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!think.com!
enterpoop.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!lunic!sunic!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!torvalds
From: torva...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Torvalds)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Message-ID: <1992Nov29.224443.3102@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
Date: 29 Nov 92 22:44:43 GMT
References: <9211282231.27@rmkhome.UUCP> <Ha3ZuB9w165w@techsys.mcws.fidonet.org>
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 53

In article <Ha3ZuB9w1...@techsys.mcws.fidonet.org> b...@techsys.mcws.fidonet.org 
(Berk Walker) writes:
>> 
>> I've have run Coherent 3.1.0, 3.2.0, 3.2.1a, 4.0 Alpha, 4.0 beta, and the
>> final release of Coherent 4.0 on my machine with an Adaptec SCSI controller.
>> I've never had a trashed file system, and fsck usually only needs to run when
>
>..H.J.LU (GCC GUY) trashed his fs on 0.98.  but, what's a fs 'twixt friends, eh?

Indeed.  One major difference between linux and coherent is that I'm
developing linux almost "on-line" - ie I usually make linux versions
available to the public about weekly, closely matching my own linux
sources.  This leads to generally faster turn-around with bug-reports
etc, and has helped with the fast developement no end, but it does have
problems.  When I do something stupid, it also bites any fast
beta-testers (and hlu doesn't just make the gcc binaries: he also tries
to keep up with the newest kernel releases).  And the early 0.98 linux
kernels did indeed have a problem with the filesystem under some
circumstances (they weren't very obvious: very few people ever saw them,
but when they happened, they really f*cked things up). 

The linux way of developing software obviously doesn't work for a major
company like Coherent: Coherent probably uses several layers of testers
(in-house, alpha- and finally beta-testers) to avoid any major bugs in
the "final" release.

Whether the linux development cycle is better or worse than coherent
depends on the user: it has certainly resulted in very fast development,
but some users do seem to think that a stable, relatively well-tested
kernel does have it's good points even if it does mean the features
aren't all there yet (poor misguided souls :-).

Note that I'm not saying that linux is unstable: the general opinion
seems to be that linux is pretty hard to crash.  iX (German computer
magazine) tested out 20+ unixes with the crashme program sometime during
the summer (iX 7/92 I believe), and linux was one of three that
survived.  But that was using a version that had been available for some
time: keeping up with the absolutely newest kernels can occasionally
result in nasty surprises.  Not that there has been too many of them,
and generally the new versions are better than the old. 

As to actual fs-corruption: in the linux community it seems to be mostly
due to (a) disk driver problems or (b) incorrect shutdowns etc.  Actual
fs bugs have been a relatively minor problem, it seems (there have been
those too, of course).  Especially (a) is a major problem: it doesn't
happen often, but when the disk driver has problems with some
disk/controller combination, it's often hard to see why you get
corruptions.  This seems to be a problem with most non-BIOS programs:
the amount of different PC hardware is simply staggering, and some of it
slightly different.  So the reason linux can seem stabler than coherent
on some machine may be due to these kinds of hardware problems: there
are probably machines where the reverse is true. 

		Linus

Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!
magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!wariat!sjsobol
From: sjso...@wariat.org (Steven J. Sobol)
Subject: Re: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Message-ID: <1992Dec1.000321.5181@wariat.org>
Organization: APK Public Access UNIX/Internet, Cleveland, OH, USA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
References: <9211281740.AA22868@PCS.CNU.EDU>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1992 00:03:21 GMT
Lines: 34

, Shannon Hendrix (shend...@PCS.CNU.EDU) wrote:

: > Question:  How much disk space does it require?
: 	Its not civilized in that respect :-).  My system is around 60
: megs.  Here is what I have (major packages...).
: 
: 1) X11R5	Huge, what can I say?
: 2) TeX		ditto
: 3) gtroff	sorta ditto
: 4) GNU utils	3-400 of them
: 5) X Games	XTetris is great!  Wasteful, but great!
: 6) CLisp	could do without it...
: 7) GCC C++ 2.2.2d	great compiler, Coh needs this bad!!!!
: 8) static libs
:    shared libs
: 9) system monitors
: 10) TCP/IP	Coherent needs this, though some might disagree.

Well, I was giving a presentation on Coh to my local unix user group
last month, and we talked about how TCP/IP and X are being ported. Someone
said, "Why?" Because, quite frankly, Coherent is *supposed* to be a small
system. I would say, 7-10 are necessary (7 and 10 are definitely coming,
I think 7 is already here). None of the other stuff.

Linux, 386bsd, and Coherent all have their places in the Unix world and
can all co-exist peacefully. They hit different market niches.

regards, Steve (sjso...@tiny.com)

-- 
Steve Sobol, Prez. The Tiny Software Co * sjso...@tiny.com * sjso...@wariat.org
CALL APK in Cleveland, Ohio: Telnet/FTP/BBS/Shell/More!   Info: i...@wariat.org
All for a Reasonable Monthly Rate. Telnet to wariat.org or pick up the phone...
216/481-9425 v.32bis/PEP; 216/481-9445 v.32bis/HST; 216/481-9436 2400 baud.....

Path: sparky!uunet!olivea!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!
chorus.mei!oskgate0.mei!icspub!wnoc-kyo!astemgw!daemun.rcac!kenji
From: ke...@rcac.astem.or.jp (Kenji Rikitake)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Message-ID: <KENJI.92Dec1121825@daemun.rcac.astem.or.jp>
Date: 1 Dec 92 03:18:25 GMT
References: <9211281740.AA22868@PCS.CNU.EDU> <1992Dec1.000321.5181@wariat.org>
Sender: n...@astem.or.jp
Organization: RCAC Project, ASTEM RI, Kyoto, Japan
Lines: 75
In-reply-to: sjsobol@wariat.org's message of 1 Dec 92 00:03:21 GMT

Just IMHO.

In article <1992Dec1.000321.5...@wariat.org> sjso...@wariat.org (Steven J. Sobol) 
writes:
>   : 1) X11R5	Huge, what can I say?

I don't want to use X11R5 on my 14" monitor. :)

>   : 2) TeX		ditto

I don't know how to write in TeX or LaTeX yet. :)

>   : 3) gtroff	sorta ditto

Never used nroff/troff yet, though I know how important they are. 

>   : 4) GNU utils	3-400 of them

GNU utils are OK but you can't get money from them. MWC must write
something that gives them money.

>   : 5) X Games	XTetris is great!  Wasteful, but great!

No games needed for me :) BTW, MWC's PAC-MAN (tm?) implementation was
great :)

>   : 6) CLisp	could do without it...

I don't write lisp, although I know how to decipher/encipher, because
I am using GNU emacs.

>   : 7) GCC C++ 2.2.2d	great compiler, Coh needs this bad!!!!

gcc sounds OK.

>   : 8) static libs
>   :    shared libs

WHY SHARED LIBRARIES? I doubt how much of them really contribute on
reducing memory usage - if you once tried to program VAX/VMS Shareable
Images you would agree with me.

>   : 9) system monitors

Only for Coherent?

>   : 10) TCP/IP	Coherent needs this, though some might disagree.

Agreed, but with Ethernet and SLIP support. PPP is desirable.

>   Well, I was giving a presentation on Coh to my local unix user group
>   last month, and we talked about how TCP/IP and X are being ported. Someone
>   said, "Why?" Because, quite frankly, Coherent is *supposed* to be a small
>   system. I would say, 7-10 are necessary (7 and 10 are definitely coming,
>   I think 7 is already here). None of the other stuff.

My Coherent 4.0.1r65 (yes, MWC's bugfix release for exec() bug I
mentioned here before) never crashed except for while I tried to
rebuild the kernel, on a 486/33MHz with 16Mbyte memory and 120Mbyte
disk space. And I HAVEN'T HAD TO PATCH ANYTHING TO OBTAIN THIS
STABILITY. THIS IS IMPORTANT. I am running my system as my Internet
domain gateway for the outside world, so I want it to be stable. And I
have no time to get around patches on the USENET (or whereever else),
examine them (well, I was a software engineer so I don't want my
system to be infected by an unknown bug), and apply them AFTER backing
up the running kernel/tools.

>   Linux, 386bsd, and Coherent all have their places in the Unix world and
>   can all co-exist peacefully. They hit different market niches.

Linux looks great. 386BSD runs everywhere. They are good works. I
respect writers and contributers of these free UNIX clones. But they
are NOT for my purpose - my Coherent with Arnet Multiport card does it
very well.

// Kenji

Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!torvalds
From: torva...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Torvalds)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Priorities for Coherent 4.0 development features
Message-ID: <1992Dec1.130801.27179@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
Date: 1 Dec 92 13:08:01 GMT
References: <9211281740.AA22868@PCS.CNU.EDU> <1992Dec1.000321.5181@wariat.org> 
<KENJI.92Dec1121825@daemun.rcac.astem.or.jp>
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 44

In article <KENJI.92Dec1121...@daemun.rcac.astem.or.jp> ke...@rcac.astem.or.jp 
(Kenji Rikitake) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec1.000321.5...@wariat.org> sjso...@wariat.org (Steven J. Sobol) 
writes:
>>   : 1) X11R5	Huge, what can I say?
>
>I don't want to use X11R5 on my 14" monitor. :)

Actually, even on a 14" it's perfectly useable: I have a lowly 14"
monitor that runs in 1024x768 with interlace, and it's really not as bad
as it sounds.  Takes some getting used to, but it's nice to be able to
run it.  It flickers less than some of the X terminals here at uni. 

>>   : 7) GCC C++ 2.2.2d	great compiler, Coh needs this bad!!!!
>
>gcc sounds OK.

Ok isn't strong enough..  If you program in C and do some occasional
porting, you *definitely* want an ANSI compiler.  And gcc has some nice
extensions if you don't need to be portable.  The only problem is that
it's huge and eats memory like nothing else when it's optimizing
(especially on large arrays as done by flex or similar). 

>>   : 8) static libs
>>   :    shared libs
>
>WHY SHARED LIBRARIES? I doubt how much of them really contribute on
>reducing memory usage - if you once tried to program VAX/VMS Shareable
>Images you would agree with me.

shared libs should be totally transparent to the programmer (and are
under linux and most even remotely nice systems: I obviously don't find
VAX/VMS even remotely nice).  *building* a shared library may not be
totally obvious, but even that can be automated to a large extent, and a
normal user would never do it anyway. 

Actually, shared libs aren't quite as useful without X11, but with X
they are absolutely necessary.  Small X binaries shrink from half a
megabyte to 10kB or so, allowing for a reasonable number of applications
even on a small system.  The diskspace saved is as important as the
memory saved (and they do save memory as well: when running X I
generally see on the order of 3MB shared pages when I run a couple of
applications). 

		Linus

Path: sparky!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!mechanic!p1.f260.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG!
Jeff.Tomich
From: Jeff.Tom...@p1.f260.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Jeff Tomich)
Sender: ufg...@mechanic.Fidonet.org (newsout1.26)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Linux-Coherent comparison (was Priorities...)
Message-ID: <270.2B285D26@mechanic.Fidonet.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 92 05:21:38 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3603/260.1 - #1 Computers, St Petersburg FL
Lines: 16

Hello CHRISTOPHER!

Answering a msg of <29 Nov 92>, from CHRISTOPHER MAURITZ to ALL:

Where does one get Linux? I'm currently a Coherent user, would like to see how Linux 
works. Is it an 32bit system and were do I purchase it?

thanks,

Jeff

--  
Internet: Jeff.Tom...@p1.f260.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG
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Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!torvalds
From: torva...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Torvalds)
Subject: Re: Linux-Coherent comparison (was Priorities...)
Message-ID: <1992Dec12.093158.28575@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
Organization: University of Helsinki
References: <270.2B285D26@mechanic.Fidonet.org>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 09:31:58 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <270.2B285...@mechanic.Fidonet.org> 
Jeff.Tom...@p1.f260.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Jeff Tomich) writes:
>
>Where does one get Linux? I'm currently a Coherent user, would like to
>see how Linux works.  Is it an 32bit system and were do I purchase it?

Yes, linux is 32-bit, but you don't generally purchase it: just ftp to
tsx-11.mit.edu or any of the other linux ftp sites (sunsite.unc.edu and
nic.funet.fi as well as a lot of other sites).  Also read comp.os.linux
for details. 

If you don't have ftp-capability, it's also available on a number of BBS
sites (not recommended, though: they are usually not very up-to-date),
and if you are really desperate you can buy it on floppies (see
c.o.linux for details).  There are even a couple of CD-roms, although
that isn't the normal way to get linux. 

		Linus

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