Tech Insider					     Technology and Trends


			      USENET Archives

From: richter@nic.cerf.net (Adam J. Richter)
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.wizards,
comp.unix.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Alpha release Linux/GNU/X unix clone on CDROM for PC's
Date: 25 Nov 92 04:46:44 GMT


        I am now taking orders for the alpha release of my company's
Linux/GNU/X distribution on CDROM.  Linux is an AT&T-free unix clone
for 386/486-class PC compatibles.  The CDROM is an ISO-9660 filesystem,
so you can look at it from DOS, other unix boxes, and even Macintoshes.
The distribution includes:

                o Linux 0.98.1 kernel,
                o X windows (v11r5) for VGA displays with support
                  for higher resolutions such as 1024x768 256 colors using
                  the ET4000, ET3000, Paradise, or Genoa chip sets,
                  and the standard Xlib/Xt development environment,
                o GNU utilities, including GNU C and C++, the GNU
                  debugger, bison, flex, GNU make,
                o TeX and groff typesetting packages,
                o Ghostscript: a postscript interpreter that can drive
                  a variety of printers and also display in an X
                  window,
                o elvis and GNU emacs text editors,
                o kermit 5A telecommunications program, and
                o an installation script that uses the extended
                  filesystem, which supports long filenames and
                  symbolic links just like the BSD file system,
                o iso9660 filesystem with support for the Rock Ridge
                  extensions for reading CDROM's (used by this
                  CDROM distribution),
                o lots of other useful programs too numerous to mention.

        The alpha distribution consists the CDROM, and 3.5" and 5.25"
high density bootable filesystem floppies, and installation notes.
This should be sufficient to install the system directly on a new
computer or on an unused partition on your hard disk.

        You need a 386/486-class CPU, 8MB RAM, high density floppy,
100MB of IDE, SCSI or ESDI disk (200MB w/sources), SCSI CDROM drive
with an Adaptec 1542B, Ultrastor 14F, Future Domain TMC-1660/1680,
Seagate ST01/02, or Western Digital 7000fasst SCSI controller.  I
don't think that Microchannel machines (e.g., PS/2's) will work, but
I'd be interested in hearing from anybody who tries installing on one.

        If you can't make the CDROM distribution work, then you may
return it within 30 days for a refund of the purchase price and any
sales tax, provided that you delete any files copied from the CDROM.
In such cases, please call in advance for return authorization.  If
you are experiencing a problem which is supposed to be solved in a
subsequent release, you will be allowed to wait for that release
before having to decide whether or not you want to exercise your
refund option.

        Bear in mind that this is an alpha release.  If you experience
problems, be prepared to do a certain amount of detective work to try
to narrow the problem down to certain hardware or software components.
If you can debug and fix the problem, that's even better.  I have only
tested the distribution on a couple of machines, all of which had
ET4000-based VGA cards, various IDE hard disks, and an Adaptec 1542B
SCSI controller.  However, I am not aware of anyone being unable to
get Linux working on any other supported hardware.

        The price of the CDROM distribution does not include support.
If you or your company are interested in providing support for this
CDROM distribution, give me a call at (510) 526-7531, 9am-5pm pacific
time.  I want to make the availability of third party support an
important selling point of the production releases.

        If you or your company wants to resell the these releases,
that can be arranged.  In order for these distributions to be
perceived as a viable alternative to Destiny and Solaris, I want there
to be a single standard for these CD's, which means making sure that
reselling is a more attractive alternative than developing a competing
CD.  To that end, deep wholesale discounts will be available for very
high quantity resellers who don't need return privileges.  In the
interest of having knowledgeable resellers, Linux developers will be
able to qualify for these deals at somewhat lower quantities.

        Of course, I'm also interested in improving the software on
the CDROM.  I intend to reinvest heavily in continuing free software
development.  In the mean time, if you are currently the principal
maintainer of a program, device driver or other module of the CDROM
distribution, I'll send you a complimentary copy.

        I have attached an order form for people in the United States
and Canada who want to order the CDROM now.  Once the advance orders
have been shipped, I will make another posting that will hopefully
include information on foreign shipping and other payment methods such
as credit cards and purchase orders.  The CD is being replicated now
and shipping of advance orders should be completed by Tuesday,
December 8th.

        The $99 price includes free copies of the beta and production
releases.  The beta release should ship in January and the production
release should ship in February under a catchier trademarked name.
Subsequent releases will be issued quarterly at $99 each.  You'll also
be able to get the CD's as a subscription at $60 per quarter with
automatic billing available (minimum subscription: 2 quarters).  If
you buy the alpha or beta release, you will be able to convert to the
subscription service and have your $99 and your copy of the production
release counted as part of the subscription, so you will not be
penalized for buying before the availability of subscriptions.

        Legalities:

                1. Any offers or prices are subject to change at any
                   time without notice.

                2. THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR ANY OF THIS SOFTWARE
                   (not the alpha distribution, not the beta
                   distribution, and not even the production
                   distributions).  THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS"
                   WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR
                   IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
                   IMPLIED WARRANTIES OR MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS
                   FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.


        This will be the first free operating system CDROM ever.  It is
remotely conceivable that I may be flooded with email and telephone calls
tomorrow.  If you send me questions by email, I may not be able to
respond immediately.  Instead, I may post a list of common questions
and answers to the newsgroups to which this announcement is posted.



Adam J. Richter
President
Yggdrasil Computing, Incorporated


============================== CUT HERE ==============================

                            ADVANCE ORDER FORM
                  Linux/GNU/X CDROM alpha distribution


SHIP TO: ______________________________     DAYTIME PHONE: ________________

         ______________________________     EMAIL: ________________________

         ______________________________

         ______________________________
              (USA and Canada only)



                                             Unit price
        Item                    Quantity     (US dollars)


Linux+GNU+X alpha release       _____   X     $99            =   $________
(beta and production release
will be sent to you free)


                    California residents add 8.25% sales tax     $________

                Shipping (flat fee, independent of quantity)     $    5.00


                                                        Total    $________



        Enclose money order or check payable in US dollars to
"Yggdrasil Computing, Incorporated" and mail to:

                        Yggdrasil Computing, Incorporated
                        CDROM sales
                        PO Box 8418
                        Berkeley, CA 94707-8418

        If this order form is received after the beta release has
begun, you will only receive the beta release and the production
release.  If this order form is received after the production release
has been made, you will receive only the most current production
release.  This order form expires after March 1, 1993.

        Call (510)526-7531 for a new order form after that date.  You
may also call that number after December 8th for information on
orders outside of the United States and Canada.

From: bcr@cernapo.cern.ch (Bill Riemers)
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Alpha release Linux/GNU/X unix clone on CDROM for PC's
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1992 21:54:45 GMT

In article <3814@news.cerf.net> richter@nic.cerf.net (Adam J. Richter) writes:

>      I am now taking orders for the alpha release of my company's
>  Linux/GNU/X distribution on CDROM.  Linux is an AT&T-free unix clone
>  for 386/486-class PC compatibles.  The CDROM is an ISO-9660 filesystem,
>  so you can look at it from DOS, other unix boxes, and even Macintoshes.
>  The distribution includes:


A list of good quality free stuff deleted.

>       The $99 price includes free copies of the beta and production
>   releases.  (details delted)
>
>           1. Any offers or prices are subject to change at any
>              time without notice.
>
>           2. THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR ANY OF THIS SOFTWARE
>              (not the alpha distribution, not the beta
>              distribution, and not even the production
>              distributions).  THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS"
>              WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR
>              IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
>              IMPLIED WARRANTIES OR MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS
>              FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

So basically you want $99 for packaging...  Not a good deal.  It sounds
like if it doesn't work, all you are going to do is have me packit 
backup and send it back for a refund.  If I want that quality of software
support, I can get it myself with ftp.  In the end I'll probably save myself
time that way anyways, since I'll learn who the real people are to ask for 
bug corrections from...  If you really want to earn your money, you need
to offer some sort of support service and documentation...  (i.e. I value
my time at $10 an hour, so you need to do something that will save me at
least 10 hours of thier time.)

                                     Bill

From: eric@tantalus.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Youngdale)
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Alpha release Linux/GNU/X unix clone on CDROM for PC's
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1992 22:50:33 GMT

In article <BCR.92Nov27225445@hfl3sn02.cern.ch> 
bcr@cernapo.cern.ch (Bill Riemers) writes:
>So basically you want $99 for packaging...  Not a good deal.  It sounds
>like if it doesn't work, all you are going to do is have me packit 
>backup and send it back for a refund.  If I want that quality of software
>support, I can get it myself with ftp.  In the end I'll probably save myself
>time that way anyways, since I'll learn who the real people are to ask for 
>bug corrections from...  If you really want to earn your money, you need
>to offer some sort of support service and documentation...  (i.e. I value
>my time at $10 an hour, so you need to do something that will save me at
>least 10 hours of thier time.)

        Fine.  You have ftp access.  For those people who do not have ftp
access, life is not as easy.  A cdrom like this gives people an opportunity to
get the compleat linux without having to wait hours for files to dribble in
through a modem.  This is especially true if the closest bbs is a long-distance
phone call, if the local line quality is poor, or the local bbs does not
contain the complete distribution.  A couple of people or a club could pool
their resources and get a disc, and save themselves hours of downloading.

        Even if you do have ftp access (like I do), it is still preferable to
have a cdrom in many cases.  I can browse the gnu sources or the X11 sources
without having to take up precious disk space, or waste time trying to download
from a machine at work.  When I need to recompile something, I can yank the
sources from the disk whenever I please.  If I want to try out some X demos
that are not in the standard X binaries, I can simply compile them.

        As far as price is concerned, the 99$ is a bit higher than I would have
expected, but you are essentially paying for 3 disks.  Adam is sticking his
neck out on the line financially with this, and if no one buys any disks he
could stand to lose quite a bit.  This is all due to the large upfront cost for
getting the first disk (in economics, they call this a fixed cost).  This means
that the breakeven point for a CD depends a *lot* on the volume that you sell.
My guess is that if Adam can generate a large enough sales volume (especially
in subscriptions to the quarterly updates) the price will eventually drop.
If you do not like the price, then feel free to make your own disc.

        There was a survey on the 386bsd list quite recently where they were
asked about a cdrom of their own.  I am enclosing the results for your
entertainment (provided that you find this sort of thing entertaining :-)).

-Eric

                     386bsd CD-ROM Survey Results


Well, here are the results from my cd-rom survey as promised.  Each
blank is filled in with the number of people who "checked" it.  For
example:

         [15]   I think foo.
          28%

would mean that 15 replies had a X or equivalent in the blank, and
that 15 responses represents 28% of the total replies received.

To put the numbers in perspective, there were 55 total returned surveys.  

Executive Summary and My Conclusions
====================================

I was a little surprised that so few surveys were returned.  Perhaps
that just means that usenet was not in the mood for another survey,
but it's something we have to consider before plunging into this.

I think we're just about at the critical mass needed to make cheap
cd-rom distributions of 386bsd possible.  But perhaps we're not quite
there.  If only 50 people buy, mastering costs alone will come to
$30/disc.  That's not really what I consider "cheap" enough to make it
painless for people to buy repeatedly as new versions are released.
We really need volume of at least 100 repeat buyers, if we're going to
bring the costs down to around the $15 mark.

So it may be necessary to include Linux & 386bsd on a disc at this
point in time, just to get sufficient volume to make this effort cost
effective.  Of course, that's a whole bunch of extra work, since Linux
doesn't really have coherent releases, as 386bsd does.

Most people agreed that unpacked distributions were critical.  I
personally feel very strongly about this point.  Having a mountable
distribution will allow even those with minimal disk space to compile
packages and rebuild kernels.  Several people suggested having scripts
to "mirror" portions of the disk on the hard drive, to get around
ISO9660 name length limitations.  Actually, I would prefer to use the
RockRidge extensions which Bill is currently adding.  However, if for
some reason these don't make it into 0.2, some other solution would be
required.  I hadn't mentioned these two options in the Survey, because
I thought it went without saying that we'd have to deal with long
filenames in one of the "Right Ways."

Most people (60%) seemed to favor including a contribution to the
Jolitz's in the purchase price.  The rest seemed to favor making it
optional.  Someone raised a valid point that making the pricing
confusing would discourage sales.  Another person commented that what
went to the Jolitz's was (paraphrase) "no one's business except the
seller's."  While that may be true in some sense, I'd like to keep as
many people as possible happy if I do this thing.  The Net is such a
political beast...  ;-)

At any rate, enough commentary from me.  Here are the full results:


General information:
====================
Yes   No
---   ---
[41]   [14]     I am currently a user of 386bsd.
 75%    26%
                        
[24]   [28]     I currently own a cd-rom drive.
 44%    51%

                [27]   I don't own a cd-rom drive now, but I would buy one if
                 49%   cheap 386bsd distributions were available.

[50]  [2]     I am interested in cd-rom distributions of 386bsd.
 91%   4%

[4]   [11]     I'm not interested in cd-rom 38bsd distributions right now, but:
 7%    20%              [0]  Might be interested in the future.
                         0%
                        [7]  Would definitely be interested in the future.
                         13%

Thoughts on pricing:
===================

I've been thinking that it might be reasonable to charge a bit more
the first time someone buys a 38bsd cd-rom, but make distributions
very cheap for repeat customers.  I was thinking of numbers like
$30-40 for first-timers, and $15 or less for upgrades.  Obviously the
exact figures would depend on what volume we expect to see, but I hope
you get the idea.  It would be great it enough people were interested
that we could get *lots* cheaper.

Please check all that apply:
                [38]   I like the sound of this two-level pricing.
                 69%     
                [1]   I don't like this idea.  I probably wouldn't buy a
                 2%   cd-rom distribution at all if I were going to be
                      charged more the first time than repeat buyers are 
                      paying.

                [13]   I'm not sure I like this pricing scheme, but I 
                 24%   could live with it.

                [30]   I would be willing to pay $30-40 the first time,
                 55%   as long as cheap update versions would be available.

                [23]   I would be willing to pay $15 or so for updates to
                 42%   the latest/greatest versions, as they are
                       released.

                [7]   I would be willing to pay the above prices, but only
                13%   temporarily until higher-volume/cheaper prices can 
                      be achieved.

                [0]   These prices are ridiculously high!  Are you nuts?
                 0%
                [11]   These prices are ridiculously low!  Start shipping, 
                 20%   quick, before the Death Star ruins you!


Contribution to the Jolitz's:
=============================

I think it would be nice to include a contribution to the Jolitz's in
this idea somewhere, as thanks for their past work, and to help them
continue the good work in the future.

Please check all that apply:

        [33]    I think it would be great to include a Jolitz contribution
         60%    in the cd-rom price.  Everyone should contribute!

        [13]    I think it would be best to make it an optional, but 
         24%    recommended portion of the cd-rom price.

        [7]    It's ok to make it an option, but I don't think it should 
        13%    be recommended, or pushed on people in any way.

        [3]    I'd rather keep my contributions to the Jolitz's separate 
         5%    from the cd-rom distribution.


Disk structure:
==============

I think a cd-rom would be great for people with minimal hard drive
space.  Therefore, I think exploded directory structures are a
necessity, so that people can build new kernels, build X, etc, while
leaving all the sources on the cd-rom.

Yes   No
---   ---
[38]   [8]     I think an unpacked directory structure is a must.
 69%   15%
[18]   [11]    I think an unpacked structure is nice, but I would really 
 33%    20%    like to see the packed distribution images included as well.

[16]   [9]     Packed distribution are ok, but I would rather see the 
 29%   16%     space used on other useful net-stuff.


User profile:
============

Please check one:
              
      [6]     I'm primarily interested in a cd-rom distribution as a means
      11%     of keeping an archival copy of 386bsd distributions around.

      [7]     I'm most interested in freeing up hard disk space by 
      13%     keeping rarely accessing things mounted via cd-rom.

      [39]     I'm interested in both uses.
       71%

      [5]     I'm interested for other reasons: ___________________________
       9%

        Here are their other reasons:

         -   freeing up disk space,
         -   convenience for installation (one CD-ROM vs. hundreds of floppies)
         -   I'm also interested in *bootable* CD-ROMs, to again aid the 
                   installation process.
         -   Getting started with 386bsd
         -   Looking for a quick easy way to install alot of machines.
         -   easier than ftp'ing everything!
         -   No ftp-access (version 0.2) !
         -   (1.) confidence in having an unscrewed up directory structure 
                   which I can always rely on and 
         -   (2.) a way to be sure I have the latest version

Software to be included:
=======================
Check those you would like to see on a 386bsd cd-rom:

98%     [54]   XFree86 sources/binaries
78%     [43]   TeX
87%     [48]   Lots of GNU software
44%     [24]   RFCs
55%     [30]   Random net goodies, like the net-hackers dictionary, etc.

        34 people suggested at least one addition to this list.
        Here's the list of what people wanted to see added:

Lots of these were repeated several times, such as Net/2, X11R5
contrib, etc.  Someone even had the gall to suggest proprietary
software, such as Windows NT and Deskview/X.  ;-)  Yeah, right.

        [X]   Linux (combined CD)________________________  
        [X]   the BSD Net2 tape__________________________
        [X]   original NET-2 and/or BSD4.4 light if at all possible ????
        [X]   perl
        [X]   Decent mail readers (INN and/or Elm), etc...
        [X]   Julian Elisher's SCSI driver improvements__  
                  to 386BSD so that CD and tape are supported
        [X]   Tools to cope with ISO short file names to_  
                  long file name conversion/linking______
        [X]   _comp.sources.unix archive_________________  
        [X]   _comp.sources.games archive________________  
        [X]   _comp.sources.misc archive_________________  
        [x]   LPmud, NNTP, an archie database
        [X]   386bsd mailing list/newsgroup archives  
        [x]   documentation (ascii format and maybe postscript also) on basic
              unix stuff such as how to get started with networking, how to get
              started with x, etc.
        [x]   Document on buying pc hardware for unix systems (whatever it's
              called that floats around on the net every now and then)
        [x]   MIT-X11 + contrib__________________________  
        [Y]   Everything in all archives at nova and rachel, anywhere else? 
        [x]   elm  
        [x]   new reader (nn or similiar)  
        [X]   Archives of some (or all) of the best postings to comp.unix.bsd.
        [X]   The patchkit.  
        [x]   "useful" X software like ups, xview, etc.__  
        [x]   Kermit, pcomm, xc or other serial communications package.
        [x]   Anything that will fit. Should be built so that
              anyone with 386BSD installed would be able to just
              'install' new packages. I have a package format
              involving perl you may like to use. I designed it just
              for this - installing off CD-ROM either by double symlinks
              of copying - for read only media and NFS ro mounts.
        [X]   BSD manuals (like those on gatekeeper.dec.com
              in /.0/BSD/manuals)
        [X]   Any available tutorial information on system
              and network configuration.
        [x]   MS Windows NT
        [x]   Desqview X
        [X]   TCL/TK (BOS)
        [X]   pbmplus and xv
        [X]   comp.sources.{unix,games,x} archives.
        [X]   FAQs and useful documentations
        [X]   C-News, nn      ___________________________  
        [X]   smail3.x, elm  ____________________________  
        [X]   essential X-Stuff (xview, xfig, xdvi, olwm)  
        [X]   NETHACK____________________________________  
        [X]   WEB would be nice__________________________  
        [X]   Emacs______________________________________  
        [X]   Motif, when ported.________________________  

Comments sections:
=================

[ed.  I have deleted all (I think) identifying information, in case people
thought their comments would in anonymous.  Hope no one minds.  --Jon]


====================================

You might attract new people if you can tap into some market research
such as the clarinet streetprice report and quote people low prices on
one or two drives.

I would be much more inclined to participate if the project has some
direct contact with the Jolitzes.

Also, since they are working on CD-ROM support, it seems reasonable to
bundle some financial support for them into the costs.  I'm certain it
would have a very positive effect.

====================================

Jon,  Thanks for the chance to respond to a survey.  I hope others respond
so you get some needed feedback.  Madtown was my home for 11 years, Please
say hello to the Union for me!  Good Luck

====================================

There has been some talk of a Linux CD as well.  (Yes, I know about
the flame wars.)  I don't currently run 386BSD, but use Linux instead.
A CD with both Linux and 386BSD would be particularily attractive to me
as it would give me an archive of Linux and an easy way to try out 386BSD.
I realize this might be more difficult to put together, but Linux
does have CD-ROM support available now so it is possible.  

====================================

a cdrom is a VERY good idea !

realize it as fast as possible !

====================================

Please hurry!  I can't stand using System V much longer!

====================================

Great idea! Do you think it will be ready before Thanksgiving?!

====================================

    Great idea.  Hope it flies.  I would like to be able to use a 
    translucent file system to keep the sources on the CD-ROM, and only
    force things to disk if changes were made.  This, of-course, requires
    someone to do the TFS thing...

    if an unpacked directory structure is on the CD-ROM, there is no reason
    to waste more space with a packed version as well....  perhaps a script
    to make a packed version for those that want to make floppy distributions
    from a single CD-ROM.

    I would be willing to help out with a package of ported software to be
    put on the CD-ROM.  Let me know if you get good response.

====================================

In terms of additional software to be included on a CD distribution, I
would really only like to see patched sources/binaries for 386BSD, as
CD-ROMS already exist from sources like Walnut Creek for the GNU, X,
Usenet sources groups, etc.

I've already mentioned the necessity to update the ISOFS driver for
Rock Ridge.

====================================

an excellent idea, how do you overcome the 8+3 filename limitation of ISO 9660?

====================================

The biggest hurdle for people with systems at home is getting all the megabytes
of data onto the hard disk the first time.  A CD-ROM would be great for that.

====================================

I ran a UNIX/XENIX BBS for a number of years and am planning on switching
to 386 BSD, especially if the legal issues get settled (sigh..).

====================================

An upgrade policy is a must.  I recently read that a 386bsd cdrom
distribution is available for $75 but this price is rather high and
there's no talk of an upgrade policy.  Since I just finished
installing everything (except for x) I don't really feel I can justify
$75.

Unix is forever being bashed because of lack of documentation.  As can
be seen above, I believe 386bsd should make some sort of effort to
help solve that problem.  It is, after all, for educational purposes.
Also, documents should be on the cd-rom in ASCII format.  Many don't
have access to a postscript printer, many would like to read documents
on-line, many have no plans (or disk spce) to install x, therefore
postscript won't be useful to all.

Finally, Perhaps the initial price for the disk should be slightly
higher and that additional cost should be the contribution to the
Joltz's.  If you force a contribution once, and leave future
contributions up to the purchaser of the cd-rom, you don't force
people to continually contribute.
 
====================================

This sound like a great Idea.  Keep me posted!

====================================

I don't think you're pricing scheme is un realistic, but I would be
willing to pay more if I knew that a larger contribution would go to
the Jolitz's Careware programs. I want a cd-rom because I have more
access to a cd-rom drive than a network, AND because if someone builds
a cd-rom image of the OS, it should be a more stable version because
someone took the time to put in the right patches and build and "test"
them.

====================================

I thick this a CD-ROM is a good idea, specialy the contribution
for the jolitz.
Fill up the CD-ROM with all stuff that you find.

====================================

        Almost everything I'm interested in *except* 386bsd and XFree86 is
        already available on the Prime Time Freeware CD-ROM distribution,
        which BTW lists for $60 (includes two CDs; update subscriptions cost
        $42).  It includes the GNU stuff, complete X sources, and much more.
        Therefore, I'd rather see the CD-ROM space devoted to 386bsd (packed
        and unpacked) and related goodies, such as ported software and/or
        patches to such.  PTF was to have included 386bas in their latest
        release, but backed off because of the USL suit.

====================================

Go for it.

====================================

 Frankly, I'm a bit cautious about even admitting I'm using 386BSD
 because of the USL legal threats.  I would prefer that identifying
 information about myself not be kept in any "386BSD users" database.

[ed. I'll be deleting all the information everyone submitted after the
survey is completed, so don't worry about this...  ;-)  --Jon]
====================================

Binaries and sources for all possilbe software for 386bsd MUST BE INCLUDED.
Only then should you consider making a NICER distribution. 
        One of the nicer things will be unpacked binaries to allow novices
to work immediately given only a boot floppy. It only takes 60Mbyte to have
XFree86 and 386bsd networked OS, with all development tools, even olwm libs.
 
====================================

$30-$40 is exactly what I was thinking as a reasonable start-up price. 
$75 (current price from one company) isn't worth it for `free' software.

idea of bootable cdrom recently posted to c.u.bsd by julian E. is intriguing.
thank you for making this effort.

====================================

do it!!!

====================================

I'd really like to see this happen, maybe even as a linux/386BSD cooperative
effort as someone(s) have mentioned.  I probably will not be able to get
386BSD running at home without such a distribution, so I'm the sort of
person who would be most helped by such a project. 

====================================

Hmm, I wonder if my last message prompted this survey...  I do think a
cdrom is a very good idea.  Using it to save hard drive space is quite
important to me so it must contain unpacked sources in a usable form
(this requires having file names outwith the ISO9660 standard.

I think you should seriously consider having Linux sources and binaries
on the disk as well, as this would probably double the customers and
most of the sources (GNU, TeX, and most of XFree86) are the same.  Of
course it would probably square the amount of work needed in getting
together a useful distribution

I think it should be the case that people can buy this CD and easily
boot up 386bsd (or linux).  This requires boot floppy images on the
disk in an accessible place from MSDOS and rawwrite.exe or similar to
put them on floppy (or even an MSDOS program that allows booting an
image directly off the CD).  Then from there you can mount the CD and
unpack the rest.  This would require fairly careful planning but it
would make it worthwhile.

As regards CD prices.  I bought the Infomagic CD for 75$ so I don't
think it unreasonable to charge 50$ for a complete operating system even
if it is free.  

====================================

it would be nice to be able to boot from the cdrom and install from it.

====================================

Make the distribution a self-supported environment for 386BSD development.
Don't include alot of unrelated netstuff like the dictionary, gifs, etc -
there are many other inexpensive sources of these around, and the extra
effort involved in acquistion and maintenence might impact the primary
goal: current 386BSD sources.

BTW:  not all of us with CDROMs have 300+MB disks to store sources and
binaries.  A natural CDROM-based build tree would be great - for that
matter, even prebuilt objects, libraries and binaries could be on the
disk.  That way, a simple sparse tree could be organized with minimal
impact on disk space or (re)build time.

| I'm thinking of doing it under the auspices of a not-for-profit
| corporation, so that we wouldn't be taxed on the distribution charges.
| Any profits realized would be used to make future distributions
| cheaper and better.  In any case, I would like to do this thing as
| cheaply as possible, to help get 386bsd out to the masses.

*** Bravo!  However, I don't have a problem with you making a little money
*** from the distributions - this is hard work.  If you realized $5 a disk,
*** you should do quite well.  I understand it takes only a few dollars to
*** cut disks once the equipment and procedures are in place.

*** BTW, at this point, I'd even pay $60 for a complete 386BSD (sources
*** and binaries).

====================================

The problem with this is that there are no device drivers for all the
different CD-ROM controllers (except SCSI controllers).
I don't know how you will want to cope with those ?
It's not a problem for me (I have a 1742A) but it might be for others.
Most of the people will buy a low-price CD-ROM drive and there is no
support for those. In addition all the sound boards (appearing daily on the
market) with, again, proprietary CD-ROM interfaces.
How about shipping to Europe (sorry, no credit-card, e.g.) ?
One last comment: How about saving the environment ? Can you recycle CD-ROMs ?
They are obsolete (almost) after three days of pressing them, right ?
That's what happens with books for software and programs, as well.

====================================
$40 is cheap. But, there is a *big* problem with falling behind on
updates and getting bug fixes. Could you make a new disc every three to
four months?

        [x]    If you make the pricing as confusing as possible, you'll
               lose sales. CDs can hold a *lot* of software and you'll
               soon lose to the $40-$60 Cds that have 386BSD, Linux,
               comp.sources.unix, the entire GNU and X Window System
               sources, etc.


1. Frequent updates are a must; the software must be up to date.
2. You will eventually have a lot of competition.
3. Keep the pricing simple; confusing sends people to your competitiors.
4. Focus on ease of installing, not just your CD-ROM, but *all*
of 386BSD.

====================================

See above :-)

====================================

I think a Jolitz contribution should be included in the cd-rom price.
That way it will be tax deductible.
 
====================================

I think the best things to go on CD-ROM are those bits and pieces which are
relatively stable, and not being constantly revised.  386BSD largely falls
into this category, as the main changes are going on in the i386/isa bits of
the kernel.  X386 (including all the MIT X11R5 stuff) and tex are also very
stable.

GNU software, on the other hand, is being quite frequently revised.  e.g. I'd
see little use in having gcc 2.3.1 on the disk since it'd be out-of-date
very quickly.  But if you've got free space...

====================================

Include unofficial directory

====================================

The main thing we need to do is provide a stable version of 386BSD
with a clearly written online manual for beginners.  The release
should include X windows and ave an automated setup program which
creates a new user, gives him or her an optional password, and
optionally configures X.  CDROM is the best way to do this due to the
size of 386BSD.

I have spent many many hours downloading 386BSD and getting it
running.  That went pretty well, given the horrible state of Unix
documentation.  I am NOT criticizing the man command, which is a great
idea and works as a reference tool -- but not as a 'user guide'.  The
closest thing Unix has to a reference guide are the Berkeley tutorials
and a couple of excellant but terse books.  I still run as root
because I don't know how to add myself as a user.  That is ridiculous.
Listen, I am not a begineer at computers.  I've been a Unix user since
Version 5 at Berkeley in 1975.  I've hacked GNU Emacs internals, I've
written foreign function calls to sockets code from Lisp, I've been to
the moon.  But I am NOT a Unix sysadmin and DON'T WANT TO BE ONE.  IS
ANY ONE LISTENING TO ME?  (large smiley face goes here).

ALL my attempts to get X up have met with doom.  However, I just
recently learned what 'recompiling a kernel' means and, kind of, how
to do it.  It's a truely trivial procedure!  Too bad it's taken me two
months of on again off again guess work in my spare time to get to
this point.  Horrible as it is to say, MS-DOG and WINDOZE are WAY WAY
better at helping the user get the damn things up and running and
helping them once they're there.  Why can't the devastingly large and
wonderful world Unix community do the same for installation procedures
and online help that they have for cc, make, grep, and rogue?  I mean,
a new Unix user must be TOTALLY intimiidated by this system!

I'm trying to do my part.  I'm taking notes and, someday, when I
actually have a windowd 386bsd reliably running on my 386, I will
write up my notes, I will send money to the Jolitz', and I will help
push 386bsd more into the world.  But not until then.

Note, I love Unix and the 386bsd idea.  Don't get me wrong.

====================================

Please do this!

====================================

Mind? I don't have no steenkin' mind! :-)

Good luck.

====================================

I like your idea.  Please set up a distribution point in Germany or somewhere
else in Europe before you start shipping.  It is much more economical to ship
100 CDs via a commercial carrier than to mail them separately.  Also, many 
people shy away from getting stuff from the US since there is no reasonable 
way of getting your money back if anything goes wrong. 

I could distribute the CD in Germany if you like.  I would need about DM 10
= $6.50 per CD at a first guess.  I'm not sure about your pricing scheme but
        can't really come up with something better.

====================================

I can just about afford a CD-ROM drive, help convince me I should
afford one.  Unpacked directory structure is an absolute must, symbolic
links to obj directories on a real disk, so I don't have to find lots more
money for another disk.

====================================

Note that my drive is a Panasonic drive with the Creative labs->soundblaster
interface. My interest depends critically upon someone coming up with a 
driver for it!

On re-reading, I think you have left out the option I'd like to see.
I'd like to see it as a DOS readable distribution, everything compressed. 
Largely for archive purposes. (Obviously I don't want rawrite.* and *.fs
compressed! (Nor mount for that matter - NFS mounting is undoubtedly a 
useful installation mechanism for many people, especially if the CD is placed
in a CD server remote to the user.

====================================

        I think this is good idea, and I believe many people do.
        I want to send my donation to Jolitz's by getting this CD-ROM.

====================================

I find the idea of CD-ROM distibution superb ! I'd be willing to spend
  even more than $40 on the first disk.

  Carry on !

====================================

I think it would be a great thing. I am planning to get myself a CDROMplayer
sometime this spring (to bad I have sold my AHA1542 :-( and bought an IDE
controller )
To include 20-30 $ contribution to the Jolitz also seems like an excellent
idea. But make the standard price include the contribution and let it be
optional to NOT pay the contribution.
If made the other way around, i.e. make standard prize not include contribution
and make contibution optional would make a lot of people to ignore to pay
it.

Otherwise, I think anything below $100 is dirt cheap for this quality software.
(In sweden $100 is what I pay for 4 Music CDs. :-( )

-- 
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Jon Cargille            jcargill@cs.wisc.edu
Want your .sig compressed?  Reasonable rates
and fast turnaround. Call today!
-- 
Eric Youngdale

From: adam@netcom.com (Adam J. Richter)
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Alpha release Linux/GNU/X unix clone on CDROM for PC's
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 11:41:54 GMT

In article <BCR.92Nov27225445@hfl3sn02.cern.ch> 
bcr@cernapo.cern.ch (Bill Riemers) writes:
>So basically you want $99 for packaging...  Not a good deal.  It sounds
>like if it doesn't work, all you are going to do is have me packit 
>backup and send it back for a refund.  If I want that quality of software
>support, I can get it myself with ftp.  In the end I'll probably save myself
>time that way anyways, since I'll learn who the real people are to ask for 
>bug corrections from...  If you really want to earn your money, you need
>to offer some sort of support service and documentation...  (i.e. I value
>my time at $10 an hour, so you need to do something that will save me at
>least 10 hours of thier time.)

        It is interesting to note that a 14.4kbps modem will transfer
no more than 64.8 megabytes in 10 hours, while the alpha CDROM has
70MB of binaries + 100MB of sources, and the beta and production
release will have even more stuff.

        Nevertheless, I understand your sentiments.  Tomorrow (Monday)
afternoon I will post an announcement of improvements to the CDROM
offer that will include a bare modicum support, a manual, a new refund
option and an inexpensive update plan for owners of an Yggdrasil
Linux/GNU/X CDROM.

-- 
Adam J. Richter                         409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312
Yggdrasil Computing, Incorporated       Albany, CA 94706
richter@cerf.net                        (510)528-3209
Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (league@uunet.uu.net).

From: nelson@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Russ Nelson)
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Alpha release Linux/GNU/X unix clone on CDROM for PC's
Date: 3 Dec 92 05:28:27 GMT

In article <BCR.92Nov27225445@hfl3sn02.cern.ch> 
bcr@cernapo.cern.ch (Bill Riemers) writes:

   So basically you want $99 for packaging...  Not a good deal.

No, he wants $99 for:

  o Advertising.
  o Issuing press releases.
  o 3 CD-ROMs plus shipping.
  o Covering his risk.

If you think you can do better, cons up a master and go for it.

--
--russ  I'm proud to be a humble Quaker.
Peace is not the absence of war.  Peace is the presence of a system for
resolving conflicts before war becomes necessary.  War never creates peace.

			        About USENET

USENET (Users’ Network) was a bulletin board shared among many computer
systems around the world. USENET was a logical network, sitting on top
of several physical networks, among them UUCP, BLICN, BERKNET, X.25, and
the ARPANET. Sites on USENET included many universities, private companies
and research organizations. See USENET Archives.

		       SCO Files Lawsuit Against IBM

March 7, 2003 - The SCO Group filed legal action against IBM in the State 
Court of Utah for trade secrets misappropriation, tortious interference, 
unfair competition and breach of contract. The complaint alleges that IBM 
made concentrated efforts to improperly destroy the economic value of 
UNIX, particularly UNIX on Intel, to benefit IBM's Linux services 
business. See SCO vs IBM.

The materials and information included in this website may only be used
for purposes such as criticism, review, private study, scholarship, or
research.

Electronic mail:			       WorldWideWeb:
   tech-insider@outlook.com			  http://tech-insider.org/