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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Path: gmd.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!lukka
From: lu...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tuomas J Lukka)
Subject: Do you want to see linux replace MSW?
Message-ID: <1993Jun7.170548.26424@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1993 17:05:48 GMT
Lines: 18

I had a thought about this recently: the reason Ms-windows is so
much more popular and will be, instead of X is because it's easy.
There are 'good' (meager) defaults that are well documented.

X-windows is a beast to use if you can't understand resources or so on.
(Just think about the poor secretary...) so what I propose is:
form a working group for making a 'polished' X-windows with good
defaults and documentation about them. Pulling this off would
greatly aid making linux a 'real choice' in words of the one thread.

I'll shut up now and don my asbestos garments.

NOTE: I don't have time for this effort... however, if someone wants
to volunteer, I suggest making a mailing list at linux-activists
and posting info here. I hope someone does.


TJL

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basser.cs.su.oz.au!tmx!nschq!posgate!pos.apana.org.au!pos!sleeper!raz
From: r...@sleeper.apana.org.au (Roland Turner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Do you want to see linux replace MSW?
Message-ID: <C8GDq0.1DA@sleeper.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1993 10:41:58 GMT
References: <1993Jun9.151205.108028@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>
Organization: Desolation Road Railfan BBS
Lines: 127

d...@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DAVID L. JOHNSON) writes:

>A little reality check here.

An accurate reality check here:

> MS-Win is not easy for the average schlemiel
>to set up.

That's funny - a signifigant number of our customers (I run a branch 
office for a PC manufacturer an perform a lot of the company's tech 
support) have no difficulty at all installing MSWindows, in fact
no one has EVER called me and said "How do I install Windows?"

Anyone with the ability to read a small quantity of plain English 
can install MSWindows in a workable fashion. Period. NO technical 
skils are required.

There are two areas where support is required - details at the end of 
this article.

> Getting the correct svga drivers to work,

Instructions for nect time you have to perform this incredibly 
difficult task:

1. Switch machine on. This is a very important step, the mouse 
won't work at all if you don't.
2. Start Windows. (Type "win" as per the manual and hint that you were
given when you installed Windows.)
3. Find the Program Manager.
4. Find the Main program group.
5. Double click on "Windows Setup"
6. Single click on "Options"
7. Single click on "Change System Settings"
8. Click once on the display adaptor line.
9. Select Super VGA,
10. Press "Enter" (the 'L' shaped key near the right hand side of the letters
on your keyboard.)
11. Follow instructions on screen.

I defy anyone to convince me that this is beyond the grasp of the average 
human being.

> setting up the program
>manager in an intelligent way,

Huh? What's to change?

configuring printers,

What - run Control Panel (or Print Manager for that matter) and tell it 
what make and model of printer you have? Clearly a task that requires
years of training in identifying printers...


and so forth seems to
>cause no end of hassles.

Not at all. I rarely get calls on this stuff.

> I just came out of an Egghead store (buying paper!)
>where they had a Gateway as a demo running Windows. Only thing was, they
>hadn't set it up for the svga - it was running in standard vga mode. They
>probebly didn't even know it.

Nope - they probably didn't. The reason for this carefully chosen default 
is that most non-expert users DON'T know the diference between VGA and 
SVGA and there is no reliable way to electronically determine the user's
monitor type - this is not a MSWindows limitation.

(Before you bring up the nightmare of OEM driver disks, see my summary
below.)

> It's also beyond many people to set up the 
>virtual memory correctly,

By which you imply (through use of the word 'also') that it's beyond many
people to set up the video drivers properly? See above.

The virtual memory thing is unfortunate. It'll rarely cause a non-operative
machine though, just impacts performance.

> or configure the XMS memory to run windows to its
>full potential.

Can you say M-E-M-M-A-K-E-R ?

(Yes, I'm assuming DOS 6.0, yes it's imperfect, but it's not a Windows
problem.)

>There are many compatibility problems and configuration issues that are very
>difficult. With 3.0, it was a mess to set it up on a netowrk so that it 
>would correctly access virtual memory (and that set-up was being done by 
>support people, not secretaries).

I believe that we are discussing Windows 3.1.

To summarise, there are just two areas where MSWindows administration
is beyond the grasp of novice users:

1/ Setting up special hardware.
The dfficulty in doing this is NOT a Windows limitation.
It is the fault of the suppliers of the drivers. Some
manufacturers do supply sensible setup programs modelled
directly upon the DOS/Windows setup program, with which
novices can install drivers for special hardware with 
ease. Driver disks that are shipped with an implicit 
assumption that they are for use only by support 
personal can only be easily used by support personal!

2/ Optimisation.
We are talking computers here, optimal optimisation
requires a human expert. Period.

Theoretically, something similar could be achieved with Linux. Now we
just need to find someone with time...

(Also, complexity does NOT enter into 'possibility', just 'ease of
implementation' - even the NT install is barely more complex than the 
Windows 3.1 install.)

-- 
Bye for now.
- Raz. (Roland Turner)

r...@sleeper.apana.org.au VK2ZRT Raz@3:712/413.1 (OH) 61 2 319 5700

From: pmacdona@sanjuan (Peter MacDonald)
Subject: Re: Do you want to see linux replace MSW?
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 93 14:55:46 GMT

In article <C8GDq0.1DA@sleeper.apana.org.au> 
raz@sleeper.apana.org.au (Roland Turner) writes:
>dlj0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DAVID L. JOHNSON) writes:
>
>>A little reality check here.
>
>An accurate reality check here:
>
>>  MS-Win is not easy for the average schlemiel
>>to set up.
>
>That's funny - a signifigant number of our customers (I run a branch 
>office for a PC manufacturer an perform a lot of the company's tech 
>support) have no difficulty at all installing MSWindows, in fact
>no one has EVER called me and said "How do I install Windows?"


He said "set up" not install.

>
>Anyone with the ability to read a small quantity of plain English 
>can install MSWindows in a workable fashion. Period. NO technical 
>skils are required.

Oh really.  Ever try to get a comms program to work.  How about the
windows term program.  Then there is the fun of trying to use 
a comms program and something else at the same time.  Network drivers
will drive you nuts.  Then lets not even talk about using the DOS box
in an window...

As one who puts together one of the larger Linux distributions, I know
what it is like to receive unfair or unwarrented criticism.  However,
Windows is not in this catagory.  It receives unfair and unwarrented
praise in the media.  There is a reason that they call it CRASHDOWS.

I realize that perhaps the point of your post was to discuss how 
much easier the Linux installation could be made.  And I don't 
disagree with that point.  However, me and the 100's of analysts
I work with, take exception when someone perpetrates the myth of
how great MS Windows is.  In reality, it is little more than demo
software.  Fine for the dabbler, but hell-on-earth for the techy.

Peter

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uunet!ddsw1!news.kei.com!ub!toz!cyberman
From: cyber...@toz.buffalo.ny.us (Cyberman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Do you want to see li
Message-ID: <gate.o3X65B1w165w@toz.buffalo.ny.us>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 21:59:58 EDT
X-Maildoor: WaflineMail 1.00r
Lines: 31

{Roland Turner} said
"Re: Do you want to see li"
to <All> on 06-11-93 10:41
> MS-Win is not easy for the average schlemiel
>to set up.

That's funny - a signifigant number of our customers (I run a branch 
office for a PC manufacturer an perform a lot of the company's tech 
support) have no difficulty at all installing MSWindows, in fact
no one has EVER called me and said "How do I install Windows?"

That's because windows is ussually preinstalled on systems.
They don't have to do a thing.

Anyone with the ability to read a small quantity of plain English 
can install MSWindows in a workable fashion. Period. NO technical 
skils are required.

True but how many people (especially the average windows
user) do you know who ACTUALLY read the manuals, nefore
installing? I've found maybe 1 in 20!

Though MS is improving the installation procedure I still
personally dislike there product. :)

Stephen Cyber...@Toz.Buffalo.NY.US
Mangled on Mon 06-14-1993 at 09:37:51

... We all live in a yellow subroutine.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Path: gmd.de!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!
cs.utexas.edu!uunet!pipex!uknet!cf-cm!cybaswan!iiitac
From: iii...@swan.pyr (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Do you want to see li
Message-ID: <1993Jun15.122128.19830@swan.pyr>
Organization: Swansea University College
References: <gate.o3X65B1w165w@toz.buffalo.ny.us>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 12:21:28 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <gate.o3X65B1w1...@toz.buffalo.ny.us> cyber...@toz.buffalo.ny.us 
(Cyberman) writes:
>That's funny - a signifigant number of our customers (I run a branch 
>office for a PC manufacturer an perform a lot of the company's tech 
>support) have no difficulty at all installing MSWindows, in fact
>no one has EVER called me and said "How do I install Windows?"
>
> That's because windows is ussually preinstalled on systems.
> They don't have to do a thing.
>
This is a good point. When are we going to see Linux and 386BSD on the
tick which O/S to preinstall box.
>Anyone with the ability to read a small quantity of plain English 
>can install MSWindows in a workable fashion. Period. NO technical 
>skils are required.
>
I disagree here. So long as you have no networking a fairly normal
video card, IDE or MFM drives and a bog standard PC system it works
really really well - much better than Linux, although MCC is heading
the right way [Offical SLS hater badge goes here 8-)]. On the other
hand with odd hardware you can spend WEEKS getting windows to work,
messing around with VHDIRQ=True and other hard to decipher rules. 
People also moan about Linux and upgrades - on timing this month
out of curiousity I find I spent longer upgrading drivers for windows
and getting the new netware this and blah video driver than downloading
0.99.10 and net009.tgz and switching to it.

Windows is still easier to install than Linux but neither are good enough.

Alan

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