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From: ed.du...@lambada.oit.unc.edu ("Mr. Ed")
Subject: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Message-ID: <950116203411@lambada>
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Lines: 19
Date: 17 Jan 95 01:34:44 GMT

In the columns section of the Jan 16 Infoworld, there is a column
highly insulting to linux. In it the writer basically says the
following:

  o linux is really not free
  o linux users are as neurotic as Amiga fans
  o linux is difficult to install (their senior systems analyst
    apparently failed to install it)
  o linux should be called "underware"!

He then goes on to refer to linux as underware throughout the column
-- over ten times. The column is also titled something like "Linux
should be called underware". Underware what? Hanes? Fruit of the loom?
BVD? How insulting!

What do you think of this?

Ed

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From: hen...@well.sf.ca.us (Henry Hwong)
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Followup-To: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Date: 18 Jan 1995 15:39:16 GMT
Organization: The Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA
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Who cares? The best way to deal with this columnist is to ignore him.
However, he does have some interesting points.

Mr. Ed (ed.du...@lambada.oit.unc.edu) wrote:
: In the columns section of the Jan 16 Infoworld, there is a column
: highly insulting to linux. In it the writer basically says the
: following:

:   o linux is really not free

True. Now, for all those people who are screaming "What about the newsgroups?
I can post one question and get ten gazillion answers!" -- whoa. Who's
paying for those computers sitting on the Internet? Who's paying for the
network connections? If you're at a school, part of your tuition (or
"computer facility fee") does. If you're at work, money that could be
going to salaries are. Until recently, a portion of your tax money did too.

:   o linux users are as neurotic as Amiga fans

I'm not going to even touch this one. :-)

:   o linux is difficult to install (their senior systems analyst
:     apparently failed to install it)

Like everyone has said here -- Infoworld is geared for IS groups or 
consultants. Not everyone has the time to geek out on operating systems and
play on them. Nobody in their right mind is going to use Linux as a
production database server. 

:   o linux should be called "underware"!

Blatant flame-bait. Ignore the guy.

: He then goes on to refer to linux as underware throughout the column
: -- over ten times. The column is also titled something like "Linux
: should be called underware". Underware what? Hanes? Fruit of the loom?
: BVD? How insulting!

Calm down. It isn't worth the adrenaline wasted. :-)

: What do you think of this?

See above.

: Ed

Henry (hen...@well.sf.ca.us)

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From: m...@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Message-ID: <1995Jan18.214037.6088@cs.cornell.edu>
Organization: Cornell CS Robotics and Vision Laboratory, Ithaca, NY 14850
References: <950116203411@lambada>
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 21:40:37 GMT
Lines: 35

In article <950116203411@lambada> ed.du...@lambada.oit.unc.edu ("Mr. Ed") 
writes:
>In the columns section of the Jan 16 Infoworld, there is a column
>highly insulting to linux. In it the writer basically says the
>following:
>
>  o linux is really not free
>  o linux users are as neurotic as Amiga fans
>  o linux is difficult to install (their senior systems analyst
>    apparently failed to install it)
>  o linux should be called "underware"!

First of all, I feel that this is an inaccurate interpretation of the
attitude taken in the article. The article was rather sympathetic
towards Linux, and "underware" was used as a joke. They rank Linux
below commercial software, primarily because they wouldn't trust it
for "mission-critical" applications. That's fine, if they want to take
that attitude. 

They did say that although Linux may not be up their alley, they 
agreed that it was very high quality and overall a good thing. 

As far as being as "neurotic" as Amiga fans, the article didn't say
this. It simply stated that Linux users are generally very enthusiastic
about their system, which is true. 

So I think that the above criticism of InfoWorld's article is too
harsh; they did not completely blast or otherwise insult Linux. They
simply approached it with their own point of view.

Flaming InfoWorld won't help, so please don't do so unless you have 
actually read the article in question. Relying only on the above list
of "insults" would be very misleading.

mdw

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From: Chris Hill <ch...@ping.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Date: 18 Jan 1995 22:10:41 GMT
Organization: WebVentures Inc.
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>   ed.du...@lambada.oit.unc.edu ("Mr. Ed") writes:
>  In the columns section of the Jan 16 Infoworld, there is a column
>  highly insulting to linux. In it the writer basically says the
>  following:
>  
>    o linux is really not free
>    o linux users are as neurotic as Amiga fans
>    o linux is difficult to install (their senior systems analyst
>      apparently failed to install it)
>    o linux should be called "underware"!
>  
>  He then goes on to refer to linux as underware throughout the column
>  -- over ten times. The column is also titled something like "Linux
>  should be called underware". Underware what? Hanes? Fruit of the loom?
>  BVD? How insulting!
>  
>  What do you think of this?
>  
>  Ed
>  
>  
>>>>
Admittidedly, Linux is kind of goofy to install.  Hardware wise that is.  Sometimes 
the hardware preferences of Linux and the integration of the hardware gets a little 
crazy, 
especially for newcomers.  However, once installed, the performance is great, the 
software availability is endless and the support by other Linux users is by far the 
most 
incredible thing I have ever seen.

I would equate Linux more toward the undergarment area of Boxer Shorts.  I wear 
boxers 
and I have much more freedom than you guys who wear BVD briefs.  

Linux is a great system regardless of Infoworld! I think so anyway.

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From: mm...@goof.com (matthew c. mead)
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Date: 18 Jan 1995 22:25:54 GMT
Organization: Goofs R Us
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In article <1995Jan18.214037.6...@cs.cornell.edu>,
Matt Welsh <m...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <950116203411@lambada> ed.du...@lambada.oit.unc.edu ("Mr. Ed") 
writes:
>>In the columns section of the Jan 16 Infoworld, there is a column
>>highly insulting to linux. In it the writer basically says the
>>following:
>>
>>  o linux is really not free

	Hmm...

>>  o linux users are as neurotic as Amiga fans

	We have a lot of both round these parts.  This is *definitely*
accurate.

>>  o linux is difficult to install (their senior systems analyst
>>    apparently failed to install it)

	Monkeys can install linux.

>>  o linux should be called "underware"!

	Sure should!

>First of all, I feel that this is an inaccurate interpretation of the
>attitude taken in the article. The article was rather sympathetic
>towards Linux, and "underware" was used as a joke. They rank Linux
>below commercial software, primarily because they wouldn't trust it
>for "mission-critical" applications. That's fine, if they want to take
>that attitude. 

	Catch a clue.  You're in school, you have the time to play around with
it all you want.  If you'd ever been in industry, you would know the need for
product support.  Can you call Linus and say, "My serial port isn't working
right.  What do I do?"  No.  Can you call up Sun, or BSDI and do the same?
Yes.  Mission-critical applications need to have a supported OS.  And for
industry, on the net, donated help is not an option.




-- 
Matthew C. Mead -- System/Network Administration, User Support, Software Devel.
Virginia Tech Center for Transportation Research
Work Related: mm...@ctr.vt.edu | All Other: mm...@goof.com
WWW: http://www.goof.com:/~mmead

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From: m...@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Message-ID: <1995Jan19.015527.16465@cs.cornell.edu>
Organization: Cornell CS Robotics and Vision Laboratory, Ithaca, NY 14850
References: <950116203411@lambada> <1995Jan18.214037.6088@cs.cornell.edu> 
<3fk4hi$iu8@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 01:55:27 GMT
Lines: 41

In article <3fk4hi$...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> mm...@goof.com (matthew c. mead) 
writes:
>In article <1995Jan18.214037.6...@cs.cornell.edu>,
>Matt Welsh <m...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>First of all, I feel that this is an inaccurate interpretation of the
>>attitude taken in the article. The article was rather sympathetic
>>towards Linux, and "underware" was used as a joke. They rank Linux
>>below commercial software, primarily because they wouldn't trust it
>>for "mission-critical" applications. That's fine, if they want to take
>>that attitude. 
>
>	Catch a clue.  You're in school, you have the time to play around with
>it all you want.  If you'd ever been in industry, you would know the need for
>product support.  Can you call Linus and say, "My serial port isn't working
>right.  What do I do?"  No.  Can you call up Sun, or BSDI and do the same?
>Yes.  Mission-critical applications need to have a supported OS.  And for
>industry, on the net, donated help is not an option.

I guess you didn't take the time to read my article before firing off
this uninformed flame. First of all, I have been in industry for a number
of years, so I know how it works. And there are two ways of looking at it. 
If something's wrong with Linux, it's usually much easier to "call up"
or e-mail the responsible person and either get a fix or hack the source
yourself. If you're a big compaNY and one of Sun or BSDI's major customers,
maybe you can call them up and get results quickly---but this isn't always
the case. The companies that I have worked for have sometimes had this
clout, and other times have had no luck in getting problems resolved 
in a reasonable amount of time. I would argue that the variance in turnaround
time for fixing Linux problems is somewhat less. 

My argument was that your experience will seriously taint your judgement
of a system such as Linux. It sounds like you have had favourable experience
with commercial operating systems and response from the vendor for resolving
problems. My experience has been somewhat mixed, and I'm sure many Linux
users would join me in agreeing that major problems and bugs are fixed
very, very quickly via e-mail consultation with the developers. I've
sent off bug reports and had developers mail me a patch in a matter of
hours, and I've also been able to fix problems myself with the source code.

Catch a clue, indeed.

mdw

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From: m...@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Message-ID: <1995Jan19.064125.26163@cs.cornell.edu>
Organization: Cornell CS Robotics and Vision Laboratory, Ithaca, NY 14850
References: <950116203411@lambada> <3fk3l1$eg7@news.ping.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 06:41:25 GMT
Lines: 75

In article <3fk3l1$...@news.ping.com> Chris Hill <ch...@ping.com> writes:
>Admittidedly, Linux is kind of goofy to install.  Hardware wise that is.  

This is certainly true. Other operating systems generally don't have as
much trouble with this for several reasons: 1) They use proprietary hardware
drivers which are "guaranteed to work"; 2) Most systems don't bother 
accessing or configuring some hardware until after the system is installed
(for example, you install MS-DOS to your hard drive from floppies. You don't
need to figure out how to configure your CD-ROM drive until later, and in
doing so you go through a setup program provided by the vendor to install the
driver and add the appropriate lines to your CONFIG.SYS or AUTOEXEC.BAT);
3) At least with DOS and MS-Windows, configuration of some hardware can be
VERY tricky. The OS can't make up for oddities in hardware or bus design.

Linux does a good job now, if you know what you're doing. What I'd like to
see is a move towards more loadable device drivers with parameters (e.g.,
IRQ, address, DMA channel, etc.) which can be modified at load time, 
then set permanently in a boot script such as /etc/rc. I'd also like to
see "every" hardware configuration parameter available as a kernel boot
option set via LILO. In this way you can tweak the hardware configuration
after the system is installed, and the installation scripts can ask about
your hardware and set the appropriate parameters. The fundamentals to do this
are in place, they just need to be integrated more closely with the 
installation and boot-time code. I think Linux is suffering from a case of
having a sudden influx of new hardware drivers and not enough flexibility to
configure them all. (In the old days, very few hardware devices were supported,
and boot-time configuration of them remains close to that original scheme.)
This will make hardware configuration from software much tighter.

>Linux is a great system regardless of Infoworld! I think so anyway.

I think that the thing we need to keep in mind here is that InfoWorld is
written by and targeted for a particular audience, and ALL judgements of
an operating system (or any software, for that matter) need to be taken
in that context. Linux may not be the best thing for most readers of 
InfoWorld, while it certainly might be for readers of UNIXWorld and Mad
Magazine. Right now I can't imagine a large institution installing Slackware
on several thousand machines at once, simply because the installation 
process isn't integrated (as explained above) with the hardware, and wasn't
designed to scale in this way. Some people have come up with great ways 
to do this, however---one of the talks in Amsterdam dealt with simple,
distributed installations across many machines at a university. It can be
done, we just need to write the software and docs to make it less painful. 

Why does Linux suffer in this way? Because, in general, people write code 
for their own sundry purposes. Until someone had a need to install Linux
and maintain upgrades on many machines at once, the code wasn't there to 
do that. Now it is being developed, and hopefully will be included in
one of the major distributions at some point. Some things won't happen
until someone comes along and says, "I need this, I'll write it." We can't
start looking at Linux as a spectator sport, with a take-it-or-leave-it
attitude that we apply towards commercial operating systems that we have
no hope of improving ourselves. Slackware came about because one guy, 
Patrick Volkerding, decided that SLS had some problems and needed to be
seriously revised. Debian, Bogus, Yggdrasil, and Red Hat were all based
on a similar impetus. The same applies to every feature in the Linux system
from kernel drivers to docs. So, if something's wrong or missing in the
way Linux is installed, maintained, or used, it's up to us to fix it. 

I think that Linux is hitting this scaleability and popularity wall pretty
hard right now. People need to take a look at distributions and installation
methods and think about ways to make tehm simpler and easier to maintain,
if Linux is to support the masses of users wanting to switch to it. Many
aspects of the system remain esoteric because the original set of users could
deal with that. Since that's no longer the case, some rethinking should be 
done, and various groups of people have been working on these issues. 

But I think that's the easy part. We already have many integrated software
packages, from the Debian, Slackware, and Bogus releases. So that issue
has more or less been taken care of. Installation and upgrades are another
matter, but that job is considerably less difficult, from a technical 
standpoint. At least we have a really hot, working kernel and many software
packages which run beautifully. Now it's time to put the icing on the cake.

mdw

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From: pet...@telerama.lm.com (Peter Berger)
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Date: 19 Jan 1995 10:41:21 -0500
Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA
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Message-ID: <3fm171$hes@ivory.lm.com>
References: <950116203411@lambada> <1995Jan18.214037.6088@cs.cornell.edu> 
<3fk4hi$iu8@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <1995Jan19.015527.16465@cs.cornell.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivory.lm.com

In article <1995Jan19.015527.16...@cs.cornell.edu>,
Matt Welsh <m...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <3fk4hi$...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> mm...@goof.com (matthew c. mead) 
writes:
>If you're a big compaNY and one of Sun or BSDI's major customers,
>maybe you can call them up and get results quickly---but this isn't always
>the case. 

You're completely, utterly, and didactically wrong.

We are a BSDI customer.  Not a "major" one, we only have a few systems.  I
have called them on weekends.  I have called them at 7 pm Pacific time.  And
I have yet to have to wait more than six hours for a callback, and that's if
I call at night on a Sunday.  If I call during business hours, I'm usually
on the phone and my problem is resolved within 10 minutes.

I've installed, and used, Linux, and relying of LoseNet for mission
critical support is about as wise as relying on the Little Rascals as
your fire department.

That's not saying that Linux people on the net aren't nice.  It's saying that
you get what you pay for.

>The companies that I have worked for have sometimes had this
>clout, and other times have had no luck in getting problems resolved 
>in a reasonable amount of time. I would argue that the variance in turnaround
>time for fixing Linux problems is somewhat less. 

I would argue that you're a raving loon.

-- 
......................................................................
  Peter G. Berger, Esq.  Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh
Internet: pet...@telerama.lm.com Phone: 412/481-3505 Fax: 412/481-8568
	   	 	http://www.lm.com/~peterb

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From: j...@dostoevsky.ucr.edu (Joe Sloan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Date: 19 Jan 1995 20:31:08 GMT
Organization: University of Calfornia at Riverside
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In article <3fjcn4$...@nkosi.well.com>,
Henry Hwong <hen...@well.sf.ca.us> wrote:

>Nobody in their right mind is going to use Linux as a
>production database server. 

I don't understand what you are trying to say here; can you explain what
you mean? Linux is currently being used in real-world mission-critical 
applications. Perhaps those using it should hear your warning, if you 
would care to explain it -

I have been looking for ways to move more and more services from Sun
machines to linux machines, emboldened and encouraged by the spectacular
successes and rock-solid reliability I've seen so far...

But after your statement, well, I just don't know - help me out here..

;-)

--
Email to:			| Running Linux! (Slackware) 
 j...@dostoevsky.ucr.edu		| because a 486 is a terrible
 j...@ucrengr.ucr.edu		| thing to waste...

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From: rober...@agcs.com (Wallace Roberts)
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Date: 19 Jan 1995 18:38:58 -0700
Organization: agcs
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mm...@goof.com (matthew c. mead) writes:

	[ ...you must snip it... ]

>	Catch a clue.

"catch a clue?"

sigh.

the expression is "rent a clue," not "catch a clue."  if you're going to
insult someone, at least try to get it right.

>You're in school, you have the time to play around with it all you want.

how do you know matt's "in school?"  for all you know, he could be a
part-time evening student with a full-time day job, or he could be
working for the university.  you have no idea what you're talking about.

>If you'd ever been in industry, you would know the need for
>product support.

"product support?"  is that a euphemism for "i'm a fum-duck who can't
figure it out?"

>Can you call Linus and say, "My serial port isn't working
>right.  What do I do?"  No.

...but i can *read*, for pete's sake.  or can't you?  do you call up tech
support the first time a problem comes up?  good luck as you're put on
indefinite hold... on your dime.

been there, done that, ain't *never* goin' back.

>Can you call up Sun, or BSDI and do the same? Yes.

whatever you're smoking, i want some.  it must be d%mn good.

>Mission-critical applications need to have a supported OS.  And for
>industry, on the net, donated help is not an option.

now *you're* the one who obviously needs to "catch a clue" as you put it.
read the last 2 issues of _linux journal_: both contain articles about
virginia power using linux in a variety of "mission critical" ways.

"catch a clue" indeed.

gears,
ye wilde ryder
--
rober...@agcs.com | 86 cr250 "dirt devil"    83 v65 magna "animal"
"E Pluribus Unix" | 79 it250 "mr. reliable"  82 v45 magna "elliot"
"Criminals (especially tyrants) prefer unarmed victims."
"...sunlight on chrome, the blur of the landscape, every nerve aware."

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From: Delbert Matlock <matl...@aloha.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Date: 20 Jan 1995 04:24:26 GMT
Organization: Hawaii OnLine - Honolulu, HI
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<3fmi6c$ang@galaxy.ucr.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matlock.u.aloha.net

j...@dostoevsky.ucr.edu (Joe Sloan) wrote:
> 
> I have been looking for ways to move more and more services from Sun
> machines to linux machines, emboldened and encouraged by the spectacular
> successes and rock-solid reliability I've seen so far...

I've been moving more and more network services off of my network's
Sun station to two different Linux boxes.  First went the DNS service
since I never could get it to behave on the Sun.  Second went the
mail-relay service for the office E-mail system.  Before going away
completely, I even moved a news server over.

Because the on-line support (these newsgroups) are so much better than
what I've seen for Sun, it's made supporting these apps a breeze.

--
+-------------------+--------------------+--------------------------+
| Delbert Matlock   | Phone 808-449-6116 | E-mail matl...@aloha.net |
| Tek Systems, Inc. | FAX   808-448-2375 |                          |
+-------------------+--------------------+--------------------------+

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From: pet...@telerama.lm.com (Peter Berger)
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Date: 20 Jan 1995 01:29:45 -0500
Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <3fnl8p$4qi@ivory.lm.com>
References: <950116203411@lambada> <1995Jan18.214037.6088@cs.cornell.edu> 
<3fk4hi$iu8@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <3fn47i$19k@oscar.agcs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivory.lm.com

In article <3fn47i$...@oscar.agcs.com>,
Wallace Roberts <rober...@agcs.com> wrote:
>>If you'd ever been in industry, you would know the need for
>>product support.
>
>"product support?"  is that a euphemism for "i'm a fum-duck who can't
>figure it out?"

No, Mr. Super Kernel Hacker Sir, it's a euphemism for "My company will be
bankrupt when all our customers leave us if this problem isn't fixed 
RIGHT NOW."  It's a euphemism for "I don't have time to fix it."  It's a
euphemism for "I'm not some fum-duck who spends all his time posting stupid
crap to LoseNet using moronic words like 'fum-duck'".

>>Can you call Linus and say, "My serial port isn't working
>>right.  What do I do?"  No.
>
>...but i can *read*, for pete's sake.  or can't you?  do you call up tech
>support the first time a problem comes up?  good luck as you're put on
>indefinite hold... on your dime.
>been there, done that, ain't *never* goin' back.

Maybe you're just not smart enough to pick the right companies. 

>>Can you call up Sun, or BSDI and do the same? Yes.
>whatever you're smoking, i want some.  it must be d%mn good.

BSDI support is superb.  That's all that needs to be said.  Just because
you've picked losers in the past doesn't mean that all commercial OS's
have no value.

>>Mission-critical applications need to have a supported OS.  And for
>>industry, on the net, donated help is not an option.
>
>now *you're* the one who obviously needs to "catch a clue" as you put it.
>read the last 2 issues of _linux journal_: both contain articles about
>virginia power using linux in a variety of "mission critical" ways.

The woe betide the energy consumers of Virginia.


-- 
......................................................................
  Peter G. Berger, Esq.  Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh
Internet: pet...@telerama.lm.com Phone: 412/481-3505 Fax: 412/481-8568
	   	 	http://www.lm.com/~peterb

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From: m...@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Message-ID: <1995Jan19.202152.25411@cs.cornell.edu>
Organization: Cornell CS Robotics and Vision Laboratory, Ithaca, NY 14850
References: <3fk4hi$iu8@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <1995Jan19.015527.16465@cs.cornell.edu> 
<3fm171$hes@ivory.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 20:21:52 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <3fm171$...@ivory.lm.com> pet...@telerama.lm.com (Peter Berger) writes:
>In article <1995Jan19.015527.16...@cs.cornell.edu>,
>Matt Welsh <m...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>In article <3fk4hi$...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> mm...@goof.com (matthew c. mead) writes:
>>If you're a big compaNY and one of Sun or BSDI's major customers,
>>maybe you can call them up and get results quickly---but this isn't always
>>the case. 
>
>You're completely, utterly, and didactically wrong.

So I am. Thanks for the correction.

>>The companies that I have worked for have sometimes had this
>>clout, and other times have had no luck in getting problems resolved 
>>in a reasonable amount of time. I would argue that the variance in turnaround
>>time for fixing Linux problems is somewhat less. 
>
>I would argue that you're a raving loon.

Thank you! I try my best.

mdw

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From: m...@ka4ybr.com (Mark A. Horton KA4YBR)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Followup-To: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Organization: Mark Horton Associates
Message-ID: <1995Jan21.052259.12168@ka4ybr.com>
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<3fk4hi$iu8@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <1995Jan19.015527.16465@cs.cornell.edu> 
<3fm171$hes@ivory.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 05:22:59 GMT
Lines: 60

Peter Berger (pet...@telerama.lm.com) wrote:
: In article <1995Jan19.015527.16...@cs.cornell.edu>,
: Matt Welsh <m...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
: >In article <3fk4hi$...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> mm...@goof.com (matthew c. mead) 
writes:
: >If you're a big compaNY and one of Sun or BSDI's major customers,
: >maybe you can call them up and get results quickly---but this isn't always
: >the case. 

: You're completely, utterly, and didactically wrong.

: We are a BSDI customer.  Not a "major" one, we only have a few systems.  I
: have called them on weekends.  I have called them at 7 pm Pacific time.  And
: I have yet to have to wait more than six hours for a callback, and that's if
: I call at night on a Sunday.  If I call during business hours, I'm usually
: on the phone and my problem is resolved within 10 minutes.

	I would submit that if the majority of your problems are correctible
	within 10 minutes that they are either trivial configuration or
	installation problems caused by inadequate pre-installation planning
	or that your are seriously behind in your maintenance levels.

: I've installed, and used, Linux, and relying of LoseNet for mission
: critical support is about as wise as relying on the Little Rascals as
: your fire department.

	I'll take a "Little Rascals" bucket brigade right now over a shiney
	hook-and-ladder that gets around to putting out my fire next week
	(release) anyday, thank you.

: That's not saying that Linux people on the net aren't nice.  It's saying that
: you get what you pay for.

	Oh yes, I do so enjoy paying for barely literate help desk personnel
	to queue my problem for callback from some "technician" who may 
	actually know how to look up something in a manual (getting an answer
	may require a requeue to another group or yet another level and 
	subsequent callback.)

: >The companies that I have worked for have sometimes had this
: >clout, and other times have had no luck in getting problems resolved 
: >in a reasonable amount of time. I would argue that the variance in turnaround
: >time for fixing Linux problems is somewhat less. 

: I would argue that you're a raving loon.

	And I, sir, would argue that you are not only an ignorant lout,
	but also insulting, misinformed, unthinking,  and not at all
	humourous.


	Fondest wishes for a speedy recovery.  Hope the implant takes.  :)
	Mark

--
Everything I learned to make me a UNIX guru I learned in grammar school...
it was under the general subject entitled "reading."
------------------------------------------------------------
Mark A. Horton       ka4ybr           m...@ka4ybr.atlanta.com
Systems and Network Performance Tuning  m...@ka4ybr.atl.ga.us
+1.404.371.0291 : 33 45 31 N / 084 16 59 W    m...@ka4ybr.com

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From: pet...@telerama.lm.com (Peter Berger)
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Date: 21 Jan 1995 01:28:52 -0500
Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <3fq9j4$7ql@ivory.lm.com>
References: <950116203411@lambada> <1995Jan19.015527.16465@cs.cornell.edu> 
<3fm171$hes@ivory.lm.com> <1995Jan21.052259.12168@ka4ybr.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivory.lm.com

In article <1995Jan21.052259.12...@ka4ybr.com>,
Mark A. Horton KA4YBR <m...@ka4ybr.com> wrote:
>: That's not saying that Linux people on the net aren't nice.  It's saying that
>: you get what you pay for.
>
>	Oh yes, I do so enjoy paying for barely literate help desk personnel
>	to queue my problem for callback from some "technician" who may 
>	actually know how to look up something in a manual (getting an answer
>	may require a requeue to another group or yet another level and 
>	subsequent callback.)

You were saying something about being loutish and insulting, I believe?

Let's review the chronology, here:

1) "Linux is great for mission critical apps."
2) "Well, I feel better knowing there's support behind a product."
3) "I've used BSDI support, and they're great.  My experiences with them were 
   much more positive than with Usenet.
4) "Well, then your problems weren't tough.  And all commercial support
   departments are staffed by ignorant, barely literate help desk
   personnel."

Ok, dickweed.  Let me just observe a few facts:

1) I've used Linux and BSDI.  I've used BSDI support.  I've talked to 
"help desk" people whose names are on the defining documents of modern
Unices.
2) You have obviously never had any contact with BSDI support. 
3) Maybe you should meditate on the ridiculousness of calling the authors
of the FFS barely literate in the same message in which you call someone
else "insulting, misinformed, [and] unthinking".

Moron.

>: >The companies that I have worked for have sometimes had this
>: >clout, and other times have had no luck in getting problems resolved 
>: >in a reasonable amount of time. I would argue that the variance in turnaround
>: >time for fixing Linux problems is somewhat less. 
>
>: I would argue that you're a raving loon.
>
>	And I, sir, would argue that you are not only an ignorant lout,
>	but also insulting, misinformed, unthinking,  and not at all
>	humourous.
>
>
>	Fondest wishes for a speedy recovery.  Hope the implant takes.  :)
>	Mark
>
>--
>Everything I learned to make me a UNIX guru I learned in grammar school...
>it was under the general subject entitled "reading."
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Mark A. Horton       ka4ybr           m...@ka4ybr.atlanta.com
>Systems and Network Performance Tuning  m...@ka4ybr.atl.ga.us
>+1.404.371.0291 : 33 45 31 N / 084 16 59 W    m...@ka4ybr.com


-- 
......................................................................
  Peter G. Berger, Esq.  Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh
Internet: pet...@telerama.lm.com Phone: 412/481-3505 Fax: 412/481-8568
	   	 	http://www.lm.com/~peterb

Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
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From: m...@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Message-ID: <1995Jan21.201912.10160@cs.cornell.edu>
Organization: Cornell CS Robotics and Vision Laboratory, Ithaca, NY 14850
References: <3fm171$hes@ivory.lm.com> <1995Jan21.052259.12168@ka4ybr.com> 
<3fq9j4$7ql@ivory.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 20:19:12 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <3fq9j4$...@ivory.lm.com> pet...@telerama.lm.com (Peter Berger) 
writes:
>1) "Linux is great for mission critical apps."
>2) "Well, I feel better knowing there's support behind a product."

Fine. Then pay one of the many companies providing Linux software or 
support to provide it for you. Just because Linux is developed on the
Internet does not mean that commercial support isn't available. In
fact, a great deal of support is available, and you can pick and choose
which company to go with (as opposed to relying on a single company---the
software vendor alone---to do the job right). 

If you really must have that assurance of "commercial support", it's out
there. Most people have found that with Linux it's really not necessary,
but I can certainly understand that a company using Linux for mission-
critical apps would like to have that to fall back upon. 

>Ok, dickweed.  
>
>[...]
>
>Moron.

Is name-calling really necessary, or do you feel that it helps to 
lower yourself below the level of the people you're flaming? It might
help your argument to exhibit some decency.

mdw

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From: hen...@well.sf.ca.us (Henry Hwong)
Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Followup-To: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Date: 23 Jan 1995 08:45:33 GMT
Organization: The Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA
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Message-ID: <3fvqbd$6v1@nkosi.well.com>
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<3fmi6c$ang@galaxy.ucr.edu>
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Joe Sloan (j...@dostoevsky.ucr.edu) wrote:
: In article <3fjcn4$...@nkosi.well.com>,
: Henry Hwong <hen...@well.sf.ca.us> wrote:

: >Nobody in their right mind is going to use Linux as a
: >production database server. 

: I don't understand what you are trying to say here; can you explain what
: you mean? Linux is currently being used in real-world mission-critical 
: applications. Perhaps those using it should hear your warning, if you 
: would care to explain it -

Sure. I am in no way dis'ing Linux itself, but, rather, lamenting its
state as a chaos-bred operating system. Fortune 500 businesses want
certain things for their IS departments, one of which is support.
Contracted support. Something you can hold over vendors when you don't
get what you need.

Another thing they want is a skill that they can either hire (buy) or
train their IS people for. Businesses want to have interchangable people
(it's a harsh, cruel world out there), and, until Linux is used by a
ton of other IS departments, which would create a large pool of people who
could support Linux in a business environment, they aren't going to use it.

Besides, Linux is (*gasp!*) just an operating system. Until Sybase, Oracle,
or Informix port their products to Linux, why use it?

: I have been looking for ways to move more and more services from Sun
: machines to linux machines, emboldened and encouraged by the spectacular
: successes and rock-solid reliability I've seen so far...

Stability should only be one factor when moving platforms. You should also
consider what support you're going to get, as well as the cost of training
your people on the idosyncracies of Linux.

-Henry

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iialan
From: iia...@iifeak.swan.ac.uk (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iifeak.swan.ac.uk
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References: <950116203411@lambada> <3fgh4d$qtu@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 18:31:43 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <3fgh4d$...@nyx10.cs.du.edu> csm...@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Craig Smith) 
writes:
>>  o linux is difficult to install (their senior systems analyst
>>    apparently failed to install it)

Remind me never to employ their systems analyst. I know people with no
heavyweight computing background who have installed Linux. If you can
install DOS you can certainly install Linux to equivalent functionality.

Alan
-- 
  ..-----------,,----------------------------,,----------------------------,,
 // Alan Cox  //  iia...@www.linux.org.uk   //  GW4PTS@GB7SWN.#45.GBR.EU  //
 ``----------'`--[Anti Kibozing Signature]-'`----------------------------''
One two three: Kibo, Lawyer, Refugee :: Green card, Compaq come read me...

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From: iia...@iifeak.swan.ac.uk (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iifeak.swan.ac.uk
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References: <950116203411@lambada> <1995Jan18.214037.6088@cs.cornell.edu> 
<3fk4hi$iu8@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:08:39 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <3fk4hi$...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> mm...@goof.com (matthew c. mead) writes:
>it all you want.  If you'd ever been in industry, you would know the need for
>product support.  Can you call Linus and say, "My serial port isn't working
>right.  What do I do?"  No.  Can you call up Sun, or BSDI and do the same?
>Yes.  Mission-critical applications need to have a supported OS.  And for
>industry, on the net, donated help is not an option.

Erm I can pay Sun for SUN support or I can pay assorted people for support for
Linux. In a seriously critical situation most modern day product support is
worth zilch. "It keeps crashing when X happens", "Don't do X", "But its
vital we do", "We'll get back to you later on"

Week passes.... and you find you are bug report number 3111714 to be fixed
by next major release  ( 6 months time ).

Alan
-- 
  ..-----------,,----------------------------,,----------------------------,,
 // Alan Cox  //  iia...@www.linux.org.uk   //  GW4PTS@GB7SWN.#45.GBR.EU  //
 ``----------'`--[Anti Kibozing Signature]-'`----------------------------''
One two three: Kibo, Lawyer, Refugee :: Green card, Compaq come read me...

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From: pe...@bonkers.taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Message-ID: <D34719.908@bonkers.taronga.com>
References: <D2yquq.E29@bonkers.taronga.com> 
<1995Jan26.212545.3335@rosevax.rosemount.com> <D31JDq.JrA@bonkers.taronga.com> 
<1995Jan27.032144.8740@cs.cornell.edu>
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 12:07:56 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <1995Jan27.032144.8...@cs.cornell.edu>,
Matt Welsh <m...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <D31JDq....@bonkers.taronga.com> pe...@bonkers.taronga.com 
(Peter da Silva) writes:
>>In article <1995Jan26.212545.3...@rosevax.rosemount.com>,
>>Grant Edwards <gra...@reddwarf.rosemount.com> wrote:
>>>Was TNIX a v7 clone?  As best as I could remember, that was my guess.

>>TNIX was vanilla V7 UNIX on the PDP-11. It felt like an early 2BSD source tape.

>Long, thin, oxidated, and very very dusty? I don't get it.

Phphphphphpht...

No frills V7 but you got vi and csh. (thank the gods, the Tektronix editor
LDE sucked dirty sweat socks through a mouldy straw)

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From: iia...@iifeak.swan.ac.uk (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iifeak.swan.ac.uk
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References: <3fjcn4$24u@nkosi.well.com> <3fmi6c$ang@galaxy.ucr.edu> 
<3fndtq$4ba@nuhou.aloha.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 17:18:28 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <3fndtq$...@nuhou.aloha.net> Delbert Matlock <matl...@aloha.net> 
writes:
>I've been moving more and more network services off of my network's
>Sun station to two different Linux boxes.  First went the DNS service
>since I never could get it to behave on the Sun.  Second went the
>mail-relay service for the office E-mail system.  Before going away
>completely, I even moved a news server over.

I've been doing the same for our computer society. The Sun systems we have
are as reliable but less maintainable. Its so much nicer when you can
hack setuid() in the kernel to be more facist than normal 8)

SunOS 4.1.1 (+ about 800 vendor patches) is a bit more stable, and I still
would be cautious about running a 60 client EfNET irc server under Linux but
for the rest its much better, and stuff like dialog and commands with 
--help are a godsend with our typical users.

Alan
-- 
  ..-----------,,----------------------------,,----------------------------,,
 // Alan Cox  //  iia...@www.linux.org.uk   //  GW4PTS@GB7SWN.#45.GBR.EU  //
 ``----------'`--[Anti Kibozing Signature]-'`----------------------------''
One two three: Kibo, Lawyer, Refugee :: Green card, Compaq come read me...

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From: iia...@iifeak.swan.ac.uk (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
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References: <3fk4hi$iu8@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <3fn47i$19k@oscar.agcs.com> 
<3fnl8p$4qi@ivory.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 17:23:06 GMT
Lines: 29

In article <3fnl8p$...@ivory.lm.com> pet...@telerama.lm.com (Peter Berger) 
writes:
>>...but i can *read*, for pete's sake.  or can't you?  do you call up tech
>>support the first time a problem comes up?  good luck as you're put on
>>indefinite hold... on your dime.
>>been there, done that, ain't *never* goin' back.
>Maybe you're just not smart enough to pick the right companies. 

Well there are very few good ones - BSDI being the outstanding one. Anyway
you can pay for support if you want it (what do you think you are doing as
part of your huge cost for your other OS..). A lot of vendors dont give
free support now - or 30 days install support. Hiring your own programmer
whose job is budgetted to include 'fixing any suprise problems' is quite
cost effective sometimes.

>>now *you're* the one who obviously needs to "catch a clue" as you put it.
>>read the last 2 issues of _linux journal_: both contain articles about
>>virginia power using linux in a variety of "mission critical" ways.

>The woe betide the energy consumers of Virginia.

Ah I love unjustified criticism from someone who hasn't tried to run an
equivalent system 8). 

Alan
-- 
  ..-----------,,----------------------------,,----------------------------,,
 // Alan Cox  //  iia...@www.linux.org.uk   //  GW4PTS@GB7SWN.#45.GBR.EU  //
 ``----------'`--[Anti Kibozing Signature]-'`----------------------------''
One two three: Kibo, Lawyer, Refugee :: Green card, Compaq come read me...

Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Path: swrinde!pipex!uknet!info!iialan
From: iia...@iifeak.swan.ac.uk (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
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References: <3fjcn4$24u@nkosi.well.com> <3fmi6c$ang@galaxy.ucr.edu> 
<3fvqbd$6v1@nkosi.well.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:43:27 GMT
Lines: 26

In article <3fvqbd$...@nkosi.well.com> hen...@well.sf.ca.us (Henry Hwong) 
writes:
>Besides, Linux is (*gasp!*) just an operating system. Until Sybase, Oracle,
>or Informix port their products to Linux, why use it?

Various other databases are already running under Linux - including
commercial ones.

>Stability should only be one factor when moving platforms. You should also
>consider what support you're going to get, as well as the cost of training
>your people on the idosyncracies of Linux.

Its unix (except in name), it runs openlook the same as the sun machines.
The tools have "--help" options but apart from that work the same. Only when
it comes to more complex administration will you meet training issues of
note, and your admin ought to have a brain - its a very good feature that
a few don't seem to posess 8). Generally the computer society machines
are even using the same tools on both SunOS and Linux - and I must get
around to putting gnu fileutils on the Sun's to get --help 8)

Alan

-- 
  ..-----------,,----------------------------,,----------------------------,,
 // Alan Cox  //  iia...@www.linux.org.uk   //  GW4PTS@GB7SWN.#45.GBR.EU  //
 ``----------'`--[Anti Kibozing Signature]-'`----------------------------''
One two three: Kibo, Lawyer, Refugee :: Green card, Compaq come read me...

Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc
Path: nntp.gmd.de!Germany.EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!
pipex!uknet!info!iialan
From: iia...@iifeak.swan.ac.uk (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
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References: <D31JDq.JrA@bonkers.taronga.com> <1995Jan27.032144.8740@cs.cornell.edu> 
<D34719.908@bonkers.taronga.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:17:44 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <D34719....@bonkers.taronga.com> pe...@bonkers.taronga.com 
(Peter da Silva) writes:
>No frills V7 but you got vi and csh. (thank the gods, the Tektronix editor
>LDE sucked dirty sweat socks through a mouldy straw)

vi .. thats not real v7 8). I bet you got the BSD ls which did columns too.
(I like the v7 manuals they actually explain why it would be stupid to have
ls do column listings because you can use ls | col for that...)

Alan


-- 
  ..-----------,,----------------------------,,----------------------------,,
 // Alan Cox  //  iia...@www.linux.org.uk   //  GW4PTS@GB7SWN.#45.GBR.EU  //
 ``----------'`--[Anti Kibozing Signature]-'`----------------------------''
One two three: Kibo, Lawyer, Refugee :: Green card, Compaq come read me...

Newsgroups: comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.linux.misc
Path: nntp.gmd.de!Germany.EU.net!wizard.pn.com!satisfied.elf.com!
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From: pe...@bonkers.taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Linux thoroughly insulted by Infoworld!
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Message-ID: <D3Bp53.6zu@bonkers.taronga.com>
References: <D31JDq.JrA@bonkers.taronga.com> 
<1995Jan27.032144.8740@cs.cornell.edu> <D34719.908@bonkers.taronga.com> 
<D3BM5L.3wA@info.swan.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:22:15 GMT
Lines: 6

In article <D3BM5L....@info.swan.ac.uk>,
Alan Cox <iia...@iifeak.swan.ac.uk> wrote:
>(I like the v7 manuals they actually explain why it would be stupid to have
>ls do column listings because you can use ls | col for that...)

You mean "ls | pr -4 -t"?

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