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From: n...@panix.com (Hyung-song Nam)
Subject: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/17
Message-ID: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106431377
organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,
comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

hello,

I'm about to setup some P5-100  machines to provide
internet services. I need to choose an OS, and I have
come to three choices: Linux, FreeBSD, and Windows NT.
I will have a T1 or 56k and provide terminal
and PPP/SLIP access. I will also have a small network
connected via ethernet which I will use to teach net
classes. Server will probably serve about 10-20 
machines simultaneously. One machine will be a 
dedicated news server, and another will be ftp and web,
and another will be for terminal & PPP. 

Which of the OS's above will best suit the job? I have
heard that FreeBSD is more stable, but linux users can
argue with that ( I myself use linux :) ). FreeBSD also
is known to have a better NFS performance, so that may
be a reason to choose FreeBSD. I personally don't think
Windows NT is well suited for ISP, but it may be easier 
to configure and manage than unix machines.

I would like to get some feedback before I begin the 
process. I would also like to know if it's practical
to provide PPP using a PC server instead of using a 
terminal server(?). I would prefer email replies
since I can't check the newsgroups so often anymore.

thanx

-- 
                                          -Hyung-song Nam
                                           h...@cornell.edu
                                           n...@panix.com

From: pe...@nmti.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/17
Message-ID: <id.VAPL1.0SA@nmti.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106431403
sender: pe...@nmti.com (peter da silva)
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com>
organization: Network/development platform support, NMTI
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <3ue5qa$...@panix.com>, Hyung-song Nam <n...@panix.com> wrote:
> I'm about to setup some P5-100  machines to provide
> internet services. I need to choose an OS, and I have
> come to three choices: Linux, FreeBSD, and Windows NT.

If you want to let people have "shell" type accounts, NT won't work,
period. You'd have to install some sort of BBS software.

It's certainly possible to provide PPP using a PC. My ISP does it
using BSDI.
-- 
Peter da Silva    (NIC: PJD2)                             `-_-'
Network Management Technology Incorporated                 'U`
1601 Industrial Blvd.     Sugar Land, TX  77478  USA
+1 713 274 5180                                "Har du kramat din varg idag?"

From: yw...@beta.wsl.sinica.edu.tw ()
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/18
Message-ID: <3uf3kc$d50@gate.sinica.edu.tw>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106431405
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <id.VAPL1.0SA@nmti.com>
followup-to: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
organization: Computing Center, Academia Sinica
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

Peter da Silva (pe...@nmti.com) wrote:
: In article <3ue5qa$...@panix.com>, Hyung-song Nam <n...@panix.com> wrote:
: > I'm about to setup some P5-100  machines to provide
: > internet services. I need to choose an OS, and I have
: > come to three choices: Linux, FreeBSD, and Windows NT.

Our company (an ISP) set up a (somewhat experimental) Linux 1.2.5 box as a 
6-line PPP server - it crashes about every two days, the uptime is seldom
longer than 1 week. Like a time bomb. We are planning to move to FreeBSD.
And if FreeBSD is still not stable enough, we will eventually move to BSD/OS.

--
Yen-Wei Liu 
Internet e-mail address:yw...@beta.wsl.sinica.edu.tw
			yw...@gate.sinica.edu.tw
FAX: +886-2-783-6444

From: rob...@ec531667.slip.cc.uq.oz.au (Robert Brockway)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/18
Message-ID: <3ufi7b$ju6@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106431458
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <id.VAPL1.0SA@nmti.com> 
<3uf3kc$d50@gate.sinica.edu.tw>
organization: String to put in the Organization Header
reply-to: ec531...@student.uq.edu.au
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

yw...@beta.wsl.sinica.edu.tw wrote:
: Our company (an ISP) set up a (somewhat experimental) Linux 1.2.5 box as a 
: 6-line PPP server - it crashes about every two days, the uptime is seldom
: longer than 1 week. Like a time bomb. We are planning to move to FreeBSD.
: And if FreeBSD is still not stable enough, we will eventually move to BSD/OS.

Linux is very stable, and almost all users see long uptimes.
I would check for hardware failures if i were you.
Both Linux and FreeBSD are being used successfully as ISP machines
and Anon ftp servers throughout the net.
I'm wondering about your statement about the system being 'somewhat
experimental'.  what do you mean?  if you mean it uses hardware with drivers
in alpha develpment then that is likely the problem :-)
	-Robert

--Robert Brockway, email: ec531...@student.uq.edu.au
                   WWW: http://student.uq.edu.au/~ec531667
                   snail mail: never mind.
	Always a Groomsman, never a Groom :-)

From: yw...@beta.wsl.sinica.edu.tw ()
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/20
Message-ID: <3ukbb9$7ao@gate.sinica.edu.tw>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106587621
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <id.VAPL1.0SA@nmti.com> 
<3uf3kc$d50@gate.sinica.edu.tw> <3ufi7b$ju6@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au>
followup-to: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
organization: Computing Center, Academia Sinica
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

Robert Brockway (rob...@ec531667.slip.cc.uq.oz.au) wrote:
: yw...@beta.wsl.sinica.edu.tw wrote:
: : Our company (an ISP) set up a (somewhat experimental) Linux 1.2.5 box as a 
: : 6-line PPP server - it crashes about every two days, the uptime is seldom
: : longer than 1 week. Like a time bomb. We are planning to move to FreeBSD.
: : And if FreeBSD is still not stable enough, we will eventually move to BSD/OS.

: Linux is very stable, and almost all users see long uptimes.
: I would check for hardware failures if i were you.
: Both Linux and FreeBSD are being used successfully as ISP machines
: and Anon ftp servers throughout the net.
: I'm wondering about your statement about the system being 'somewhat
: experimental'.  what do you mean?  if you mean it uses hardware with drivers
: in alpha develpment then that is likely the problem :-)
: 	-Robert

As for FreeBSD, we all know it works pretty amazingly on ftp.cdrom.com.

Check for hardware failure ? Geee, I don't know. A Boca 16port serial card.
I have no way to find out how it can be wrong. Probably a hardware failure.
But, IMHO, PPPD and kernel panic (we got a lot of PPPD panic; this may
be the probelm of PPPD or kernel) may very well a software issue. What
do you think ?

I have my own FTP server story about Linux 0.99plxx. See my other post.

"Experinental" means we are still evaluating the stability and support
of different Unices as our future platform.

What happened to me was : now matter what other people say how stable
Linux it is, I never got my luck.  So, should I believe what I saw and
got , or other users' words ? (No flame, no critism. Only a joke. 8-)
I have no choice.

--
Yen-Wei Liu 
Internet e-mail address:yw...@beta.wsl.sinica.edu.tw
			yw...@gate.sinica.edu.tw
FAX: +886-2-783-6444

From: miqu...@cistron.nl (Miquel van Smoorenburg)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/21
Message-ID: <3uo1mt$5uv@picard.cistron.nl>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106708118
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <3uf3kc$d50@gate.sinica.edu.tw> 
<3ufi7b$ju6@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> <3ukbb9$7ao@gate.sinica.edu.tw>
organization: Cistron Internet Services - the Netherlands
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <3ukbb9$...@gate.sinica.edu.tw>,
 <yw...@beta.wsl.sinica.edu.tw> wrote:
>
>As for FreeBSD, we all know it works pretty amazingly on ftp.cdrom.com.
>I have my own FTP server story about Linux 0.99plxx. See my other post.

ftp.cica.indiana.edu, one of the busiest sites on the net (max 256 anon
ftp users) runs linux 1.2.10...

Mike.
-- 
Miquel van Smoorenburg, miqu...@cistron.nl      Cistron Internet Services
Mail i...@cistron.nl               An independent Dutch Internet Provider
for more information           <A Href = "http://www.cistron.nl/">CIS</A>
   +31-1720-19445 (Voice) 30979 (Fax) 42580 (Data) - Alphen a/d Rijn

From: dy...@inuxs.inh.att.com (John S. Dyson)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/21
Message-ID: <DC2p8M.Fx0@nntpa.cb.att.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106587545
sender: n...@nntpa.cb.att.com (Netnews Administration)
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <3ufi7b$ju6@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> 
<3ukbb9$7ao@gate.sinica.edu.tw> <3uo1mt$5uv@picard.cistron.nl>
organization: AT&T
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <3uo1mt$...@picard.cistron.nl>,
Miquel van Smoorenburg <miqu...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>In article <3ukbb9$...@gate.sinica.edu.tw>,
> <yw...@beta.wsl.sinica.edu.tw> wrote:
>>
>>As for FreeBSD, we all know it works pretty amazingly on ftp.cdrom.com.
>>I have my own FTP server story about Linux 0.99plxx. See my other post.
>
>ftp.cica.indiana.edu, one of the busiest sites on the net (max 256 anon
>ftp users) runs linux 1.2.10...
>
That is all and good...  I'll have to check it on my T1 connected system.
On ftp.freebsd.org I can still get 50-150K per second with 250+ other
connected users when I am on a T1.  Also, the only limitation is memory
at this time -- the mirror scripts grow very large (80MB of RAM).  It
would be interesting to know the volume of traffic on ftp.cica.indiana.edu.
I have heard that ftp.freebsd.org seldom drops below 400K bytes/sec., and
the peak usage is at/near the theoretical maximum for their connection type
and packet sizes.

BTW, I just did an ftp at ftp.freebsd.org and got 138K/sec with 296 other
users logged in.  On ftp.cica.indiana.edu, I got between 99K/sec and
120K/sec with a current limit of 75 users.  So it looks good, but it appears
that the system login limit on cica is set very low.  (ftp.freebsd.org works
OK (but not great) on a T1 with approx 100+ users).  We have found that there
is a big difference in machine loading, etc when going from a T1 to a T3.
A machine that works well on a small pipe can fall flat on a bigger one.  So
I still think that my view of what Linux can do under a real load is
inconclusive.  The test of the mettle of an OS is what it can do under real
stress.  If it isn't paging -- it isn't being stressed much.  Many strange
race conditions can start to appear.

Disclaimer:
Most of what I am saying about ftp.freebsd.org is heresay -- I do not manage
it, but I know the people that do and it appears to be able to really take the
load...

John (FreeBSD core)
dy...@root.com

From: czar...@vista.netmanage.com (Tom Czarnik)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/22
Message-ID: <3upgga$oqo@usenet.interramp.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106708126
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <3ufi7b$ju6@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> 
<3ukbb9$7ao@gate.sinica.edu.tw> <3uo1mt$5uv@picard.cistron.nl> 
<3uoiet$bgu@orion.cc.andrews.edu>
organization: NetManage, Inc.
mime-version: 1.0
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <3uoiet$...@orion.cc.andrews.edu>, gill...@andrews.edu says...

>Not quite 256... :-)  I suppose at night that might change, but you
>didn't clarify that.  Also, ftp.cica.indiana.edu has 2GB of disk, not
>40GB+ like ftp.cdrom.com.  I'm not arguing FreeBSD vs Linux, I'm just
>saying that ftp.cica.indiana.edu and ftp.cdrom.com are in a different
>class as ftp servers go.

ftp.cdrom.com is that busy because it primarily acts as a mirror
for other archives, whereas CICA's ftp server is the real archive.

From: t...@netcom.com (Thomas G. McWilliams)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/22
Message-ID: <tgmDC46x0.A4M@netcom.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106708127
sender: t...@netcom6.netcom.com
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <id.VAPL1.0SA@nmti.com> 
<3ugeup$44k@news.unicomp.net> <3uk3b5$35a@legend.txdirect.net> 
<DC3sEM.1Jr@saturn.tlug.org>
organization: Jot-Em Down Store and Library
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

Mike Frisch (mfri...@saturn.tlug.org) wrote:
: Let's not forget ftp.cdrom.com which is a very busy (probably one
: of the busies on the 'net) ftp/www server running FreeBSD on a very large
: Pentium system.  

FreeBSD ftp.cdrom.com crashed earlier this year and was down for over a
week.  The fallout was catastrophic. Anyone who would be so foolish as
to use FreeBSD as a mission critical server should ask the OS/2
community which was schwacked hard by the loss of a major FTP site.

Without a doubt, the crash of '95 was ftp.cdrom.com and FreeBSD.  What
was the cost to the Internet community? What would be the cost to your
business to lose connectivity for a week? How "Free" is FreeBSD when
you factor in over a week of downtime? Face it, if you need 24 hour per
day, 365 day per year reliability, FreeBSD will *NOT* cut it.

t...@netcom.com

From: j...@violet.berkeley.edu (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/22
Message-ID: <3upm66$ev@agate.berkeley.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106708128
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <3ufi7b$ju6@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> 
<3ukbb9$7ao@gate.sinica.edu.tw> <3uo1mt$5uv@picard.cistron.nl>
organization: University of California, Berkeley
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <3uo1mt$...@picard.cistron.nl>,
Miquel van Smoorenburg <miqu...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>ftp.cica.indiana.edu, one of the busiest sites on the net (max 256 anon
>ftp users) runs linux 1.2.10...

Oh?

230-** To request automatic help, e-mail:  f...@cica.indiana.edu
230-**          To contact us via e-mail:  ftp-ad...@cica.indiana.edu
230-** [deleted for brevity's sake]
230-**               You are user number:  96 (of a possible 125)
230-**                     Local time is:  Fri Jul 21 20:51:59 1995 [EST]

I'd say a max of 125 is significantly less than 256..

By way of contrast, let's go now to ftp.cdrom.com - the FreeBSD 2.0.5
box:

...
230-Welcome to wcarchive - home ftp site for Walnut Creek CDROM.
230-There are currently 297 users out of 300 possible.

Trust me, the difference between 125 and 300 is *very significant*
and I should know, having spent many hours playing with the limits
on ftp.cdrom.com.  I can easily make the machine thrash its guts
out by bumping the limit up to 500 since the physical limitations
of RAM vs swap are always there, regardless of the OS.  For every
10 users you add, you can see (and feel) a very measurable difference
in system load!

I'm not saying that this is prima-facie evidence that FreeBSD beats
Linux, far from it.  I'm saying that in all such comparisons, regardless
of the conclusion reached, you need to make sure you're comparing
apples with apples.  125 users does not in any way compare to 300,
nor do I think that cica's link to the net is as fast as ftp.cdrom.com's
(directly on the backbone at ethernet speed) which means that the users
are stressing the system more with those 300 connections as they're
able to pull more bits per connection across.  If you're shoving 300
users through a T1 pipe, by comparison, then the system spends most
of its time twiddling its thumbs with the ftpds sleeping on the
overloaded link.  It would take 7 fully saturated T1 lines to equal
what ftp.cdrom.com is now pumping out.

						Jordan

From: j...@violet.berkeley.edu (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/22
Message-ID: <3upmq7$11f@agate.berkeley.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106708135
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <3uo1mt$5uv@picard.cistron.nl> 
<3uoiet$bgu@orion.cc.andrews.edu> <3upgga$oqo@usenet.interramp.com>
organization: University of California, Berkeley
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <3upgga$...@usenet.interramp.com>,
Tom Czarnik <czar...@vista.netmanage.com> wrote:
>ftp.cdrom.com is that busy because it primarily acts as a mirror
>for other archives, whereas CICA's ftp server is the real archive.

Bzzzzt!  Sorry, but thanks for playing!

ftp.cdrom.com is the official home of Slackware Linux, FreeBSD, the
DOOM archives, POVRAY and numerous other projects.  We're hardly
just a mirror, not even primarily!

					Jordan

From: j...@violet.berkeley.edu (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/22
Message-ID: <3ur3vd$ht2@agate.berkeley.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106708174
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <3uk3b5$35a@legend.txdirect.net> 
<DC3sEM.1Jr@saturn.tlug.org> <tgmDC46x0.A4M@netcom.com>
organization: University of California, Berkeley
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <tgmDC46x0....@netcom.com>,
Thomas G. McWilliams <t...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>FreeBSD ftp.cdrom.com crashed earlier this year and was down for over a
>week.  The fallout was catastrophic. Anyone who would be so foolish as
>to use FreeBSD as a mission critical server should ask the OS/2
>community which was schwacked hard by the loss of a major FTP site.

What a load of undistilled bulls**t!  I have to wonder how Mr. McWilliams
finds it within himself to make such lofty pronouncements without
the slightest clue as to what really happened.

Repeat after me, Tommy:  ftp.cdrom.com crashed earlier this year due
to HARDWARE PROBLEMS which, in the process of fixing, we decided to
upgrade completely to a new machine and a new revision of the OS.
This meant that the downtime was somewhat longer than we expected
but we'd wanted to do the upgrade for some time and decided to take
advantage of the unexpected failure to combine all the pending work
we had for it.  Since the machine is remote, we needed to drag all
the hardware back to our own site, spend a few days making the new
hardware work (the difficulties in which were due solely to PC
architecture braindamage and had nothing to do with the OS - we
were fighting just to get the damn thing to power up with all of its
controllers!) and then drag it all back down to the remote site
again and re-rack it.  Since we have other responsibilities besides
ftp.cdrom.com, this took a little time.

Since the upgrade, ftp.cdrom.com and FreeBSD 2.0.5 have performed
marvelously with most downtime being due to power failures at the
remote site and a hard drive going bad - both factors well beyond
our control.

>business to lose connectivity for a week? How "Free" is FreeBSD when
>you factor in over a week of downtime? Face it, if you need 24 hour per
>day, 365 day per year reliability, FreeBSD will *NOT* cut it.

And I think you have a larger agenda here.  Who do you work for,
Mr. McWilliams?  I don't think that BSDI would ever stoop to this kind
of mud-slinging, but this groundless and somewhat ad-hominem attack
make me wonder if this isn't just some sort of PR exercise for a
competing product.  Be careful what you say, Thomas.  I'm not litigious by
nature, nor do I believe that one should cry "lawsuit!" at the drop of
the hat, but I have saved your message and if I do find out that there
was more to it than just another uninformed hothead issuing pompous
pronouncements to the net then rest assured that I WILL haul your ass
right into court on libel charges and I have more than enough legal horsepower
on retainer to do so easily.  I take my responsibilities to FreeBSD
very seriously and there are a number of very dedicated individuals who
are putting in long hours of unpaid effort to make this OS everything
it can be.  I won't have their work mindlessly slandered like this!
Do not make the mistake of thinking that this is an empty threat.
I've read your message several times and have more than adequate grounds
to go to court with this.  I strongly suggest that you pass a copy of your
message to your own lawyer for review if you've any doubt.

At the very least, I expect a public retraction from you at this stage.
The software was NOT at fault and you are very much in error to say that it
was.

						Jordan

From: b...@wasatch.com (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/22
Message-ID: <3us3a6$cmp@lonepeak.wasatch.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106708180
sender: b...@olympus.wasatch.com (Bob Hauck)
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <3uk3b5$35a@legend.txdirect.net> 
<DC3sEM.1Jr@saturn.tlug.org> <tgmDC46x0.A4M@netcom.com> 
<3ur3vd$ht2@agate.berkeley.edu>
organization: Wasatch Communications
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <3ur3vd$...@agate.berkeley.edu>, j...@violet.berkeley.edu 
(Jordan K. Hubbard) writes:

[McWilliams says FreeBSD is crap that caused ftp.cdrom.com to crash]
[Hubbard threatens to sue unless McWilliams says it's not crap]

You guys seem a little testy...forget your Lithium this morning?

---
 Bob Hauck                              Wasatch Communcations Group
 b...@wasatch.com                       Data (24 hrs): 801-272-3792

From: j...@violet.berkeley.edu (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/23
Message-ID: <3us830$14g@agate.berkeley.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106708182
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <tgmDC46x0.A4M@netcom.com> 
<3ur3vd$ht2@agate.berkeley.edu> <3us3a6$cmp@lonepeak.wasatch.com>
organization: University of California, Berkeley
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <3us3a6$...@lonepeak.wasatch.com>,
Bob Hauck <b...@wasatch.com> wrote:
>[McWilliams says FreeBSD is crap that caused ftp.cdrom.com to crash]
>[Hubbard threatens to sue unless McWilliams says it's not crap]

Now now, let's keep our facts straight.  If you read my post again you'll
see that I didn't threaten to sue McWilliams unless he says its
not crap, I said that if I found out he was maligning us as part of
a larger agenda I would.  I also asked for a retraction, but hardly
made that a condition pertaining to the above.  Some of us are now
making our livelyhoods out of this project and our reputation DOES
matter in a very real business sense.  I'm not doing any more or
less than any business would in protecting its reputation, and
FreeBSD, Inc. does indeed exist as a business.

I hope this makes it clearer.

					Jordan

From: jlum...@caprica.com (James Lummel)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/23
Message-ID: <DC5E93.9nu@caprica.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106771034
sender: n...@caprica.com
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <id.VAPL1.0SA@nmti.com> 
<3uf3kc$d50@gate.sinica.edu.tw> <3ufi7b$ju6@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au>
followup-to: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
organization: Caprica Internet Services (213)-526-1195 modem, 
(213)-266-0822 voice
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

yw...@beta.wsl.sinica.edu.tw wrote:
: Our company (an ISP) set up a (somewhat experimental) Linux 1.2.5 box as a 
: 6-line PPP server - it crashes about every two days, the uptime is seldom
: longer than 1 week. Like a time bomb. We are planning to move to FreeBSD.
: And if FreeBSD is still not stable enough, we will eventually move to BSD/OS.

What do you think BSD/OS is?  They take the FreeBSD code and repackage it 
with some "propriatary software" and sell you tech support.  A good 
gimick if you can get it.  They are usually at least one release level 
behind, meaning with BSD/OS you always get out-dated software.  Save your 
money!!  If FreeBSD can't do it for free it ain't going to do it for $$$!!

--

    James Lummel - jlum...@caprica.com

********************************************************
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From: iia...@iifeak.swan.ac.uk (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/24
Message-ID: <DC86Mv.Bwx@info.swan.ac.uk>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106869480
sender: n...@info.swan.ac.uk
x-nntp-posting-host: iifeak.swan.ac.uk
references: <3ukbb9$7ao@gate.sinica.edu.tw> <3uo1mt$5uv@picard.cistron.nl> 
<3upm66$ev@agate.berkeley.edu>
organization: Institute For Industrial Information Technology
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <3upm66...@agate.berkeley.edu> j...@violet.berkeley.edu 
(Jordan K. Hubbard) writes:
>on ftp.cdrom.com.  I can easily make the machine thrash its guts
>out by bumping the limit up to 500 since the physical limitations
>of RAM vs swap are always there, regardless of the OS.  For every
>10 users you add, you can see (and feel) a very measurable difference
>in system load!

Factor in the size of the ftp client. Amazing the difference that makes.

>I'm not saying that this is prima-facie evidence that FreeBSD beats
>Linux, far from it.  I'm saying that in all such comparisons, regardless
>of the conclusion reached, you need to make sure you're comparing
>apples with apples.  125 users does not in any way compare to 300,

Anyone want to try 125 or 300 people on the same sized boxes running SCO 8)

-- 
  ..-----------,,----------------------------,,----------------------------,,
 // Alan Cox  //  iia...@www.linux.org.uk   //  GW4PTS@GB7SWN.#45.GBR.EU  //
 ``----------'`----------------------------'`----------------------------''
Redistribution of this message via the Microsoft Network is prohibited

From: iia...@iifeak.swan.ac.uk (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/24
Message-ID: <DC873M.C0s@info.swan.ac.uk>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106869481
sender: n...@info.swan.ac.uk
x-nntp-posting-host: iifeak.swan.ac.uk
references: <3uk3b5$35a@legend.txdirect.net> <DC3sEM.1Jr@saturn.tlug.org> 
<tgmDC46x0.A4M@netcom.com>
organization: Institute For Industrial Information Technology
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <tgmDC46x0....@netcom.com> t...@netcom.com (Thomas G. McWilliams) 
writes:
>FreeBSD ftp.cdrom.com crashed earlier this year and was down for over a
>week.  The fallout was catastrophic. Anyone who would be so foolish as
>to use FreeBSD as a mission critical server should ask the OS/2
>community which was schwacked hard by the loss of a major FTP site.

Being down for a week is nothing to do with system reliability. Thats down
and completely trashed during the 2.3->2,4 upgrade process. Wuarchive has
had crashes.

If your software crashes the worst you have to do with an ftp archive is 
restore the backup or mirror your archive back from a mirror site. If you
lose hardware its down to the vagueries of delivery and orders. At least
PC hardware is so cheap you can keep spare machines and still pay less than
for a Sun, and you can easily play swap the boards to cannibalise other
gear.

>was the cost to the Internet community? What would be the cost to your
>business to lose connectivity for a week? How "Free" is FreeBSD when

Huge, but you'd have to take out 6 ISDN lines, 2 network links, and in 
dire emergency a UUCP feed as well as about 8 PC's to achieve that. Since
that would probably take a bomb attack, its an acceptable current level of
risk.

>you factor in over a week of downtime? Face it, if you need 24 hour per
>day, 365 day per year reliability, FreeBSD will *NOT* cut it.

Nor will anything else built by man 

Alan

-- 
  ..-----------,,----------------------------,,----------------------------,,
 // Alan Cox  //  iia...@www.linux.org.uk   //  GW4PTS@GB7SWN.#45.GBR.EU  //
 ``----------'`----------------------------'`----------------------------''
Redistribution of this message via the Microsoft Network is prohibited

From: j...@violet.berkeley.edu (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Subject: Re: Internet service providing-which OS?
Date: 1995/07/25
Message-ID: <3v1dij$b6d@agate.berkeley.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 106869542
references: <3ue5qa$ain@panix.com> <3uf3kc$d50@gate.sinica.edu.tw> 
<3ufi7b$ju6@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> <DC5E93.9nu@caprica.com>
organization: University of California, Berkeley
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

In article <DC5E93....@caprica.com>, James Lummel <jlum...@caprica.com> wrote:
>What do you think BSD/OS is?  They take the FreeBSD code and repackage it 
>with some "propriatary software" and sell you tech support.  A good 
>gimick if you can get it.  They are usually at least one release level 
>behind, meaning with BSD/OS you always get out-dated software.  Save your 
>money!!  If FreeBSD can't do it for free it ain't going to do it for $$$!!

Uhh..

While I certainly admire the enthusiasm of our supporter here, I have
to correct what looks to be a very unfortunate misperception:  BSD/OS
is *not* just a repackaging of the FreeBSD code.  They have their own
code base and developer teams that have very little (if anything) to do
with our own efforts.

Now it's certainly fair to say that the two code bases are *similar*
and that both BSD/OS and FreeBSD emerge from very common roots, but the
two efforts are entirely separate and have significant differences in
the types of approaches they took to solve certain problems.

It is certainly true that BSD/OS costs money and FreeBSD is free.
That alone may be enough to cause certain people to chose one
over the other!

					Jordan

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