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From: ca...@terptavern.umd.edu (Arcadio A. Sincero)
Subject: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/01/29
Message-ID: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 136879825
organization: The Terp Tavern
reply-to: l...@wam.umd.edu
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps


I just saw another ad in the Linux announce newsgroup for a $99 Motif clone
(MoTeeth .. funny name :-)).  It looks like getting Motif is becoming
cheaper and cheaper.  I'm wondering, is it worth getting?

I haven't spent a dime on Linux or Linux development tools so far.  Which is
why I'm hesitant to shell out for Motif.  'Tho I'm still learning Linux
coding, I do plan on eventually getting into X Window development.  Should I
just stick with XView or go with Motif?

XView is free.  But it's dieing out (or so I was told).  And it doesn't look
as pretty as Motif (IMHO).  But because it's free and most good Linux
distributions have it, you can freely distribute non-statically linked
binaries of your programs.

Motif looks really slick.  But it's a pig!  And because it's commericial, if
you wanna distribute your apps you gotta give 'em statically linked
binaries.  However, I was told Motif is gonna be the way things are in the
future.

Opinions?  Comments?  Should I or shouldn't I get Motif?  Should I just wait
'till they finish LessTif (but from what I hear, I'll be waiting a very long
time for that :-))?



-- 
===============================================================================
Arcadio Alivio Sincero, Jr.
Sophomore, Computer Science Major at the University of Maryland at College Park
Amateur competitive bodybuilder
Email: l...@wam.umd.edu, WWW: <still working on it!>

"In the darkest hole; You'd be well advised; Not to plan my funeral;"
"Before the body dies."

From: jgarzik@ (Jeff Garzik)
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/01
Message-ID: <4ep7h1$56d@brickbat.mindspring.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 137398076
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu>
organization: Slack Central
reply-to: jgar...@pobox.com
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps

Arcadio A. Sincero <l...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>XView is free.  But it's dieing out (or so I was told).  And it doesn't look
>as pretty as Motif (IMHO).  But because it's free and most good Linux
>distributions have it, you can freely distribute non-statically linked
>binaries of your programs.

You can freely distribute dynamically-linked version of Motif programs, too.

>Opinions?  Comments?  Should I or shouldn't I get Motif?  Should I just wait
>'till they finish LessTif (but from what I hear, I'll be waiting a very long
>time for that :-))?

Motif has its drawbacks, but it is a powerful industry standard, which
increases the likelihood that your users have already had some Motif (or at
least CUA) experience.  It is also easy to find good programming books
(Johnson & Reichard) for Motif.

We can't really answer your question about Motif until you answer some
questions yourself.  Are standards important to you?  Is multi-platform
support important to you?  Is a well-documented, easy-to-understand
development environment important to you?  Do you care about user knowledge
and previous UI experience?  If so, you really should check out Motif.

If not, we can laugh at you and all the other "free or death!" X
programmers who are busily churning out XView, XForms, Xaw or straight Xlib
programs -- using old or poorly documented proprietary libraries is always
the way to win friends among your user community.  Turtle power!

	Jeff

From: p...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Mattis)
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/01/31
Message-ID: <4epohl$j3i@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 137495075
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu> 
<4ep7h1$56d@brickbat.mindspring.com>
organization: Computer Science Undergraduate Association, UC Berkeley
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps

In article <4ep7h1$...@brickbat.mindspring.com>,
Jeff Garzik <jgar...@pobox.com> wrote:

>Motif has its drawbacks, but it is a powerful industry standard, which
>increases the likelihood that your users have already had some Motif (or at
>least CUA) experience.  It is also easy to find good programming books
>(Johnson & Reichard) for Motif.

What does it matter if your users have already had some Motif experience?
The Motif interface (look & feel) is not dependent on the Motif library
distributed by the OSF. It is absolutely possible to have a Motif interface
and stay as far away from the OSF Motif library as desired. (For instance,
you can use Tk).

>We can't really answer your question about Motif until you answer some
>questions yourself.  Are standards important to you?  Is multi-platform
>support important to you?  Is a well-documented, easy-to-understand
>development environment important to you?  Do you care about user knowledge
>and previous UI experience?  If so, you really should check out Motif.

Standards are nice. I think thats why OSF wrote a Motif Style Guide.

Multi-platform support? Oh you mean it works on different flavors of unix.
So. That isn't terribly difficult. But hey, there are commercial ui 
libraries out there that work on unix AND pc/mac. That is what I call
multi-platform. 

Um, the Motif development environment is easy to use? First of all, what
environment? Unless you are using a gui builder with Motif, programming
with Motif (with the library itself) is an exercise in frustration. (I
have yet to meet a programmer who has used Motif who thinks otherwise).

>If not, we can laugh at you and all the other "free or death!" X
>programmers who are busily churning out XView, XForms, Xaw or straight Xlib
>programs -- using old or poorly documented proprietary libraries is always
>the way to win friends among your user community.  Turtle power!

The reason I'm about to throw the Motif cd I bought in the garbage (perhaps
in the microwave first :) is because it is a pain to use. A running joke
that has arisen around my programming friends is that Motif is really
a very advanced artificial intelligence. It studies and deciphers what
the programmer is trying to accomplish...and then does the exact opposite.
(Don't laugh, this isn't that far off the mark from my experience).

Peter Mattis

From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <agul...@troll.no>
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/01
Message-ID: <d6wspgvp84s.fsf@pentagram.troll.no>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 137518976
sender: agul...@pentagram.troll.no
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu>
organization: Troll Tech AS, fax +47 22646949
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps

jgarzik@ (Jeff Garzik)
> We can't really answer your question about Motif until you answer some
> questions yourself.  Are standards important to you?  Is multi-platform
> support important to you?

Does Motif offer multi-platform support?

>  Is a well-documented, easy-to-understand
> development environment important to you?

Is Motif well-documented?  Is it easy to understand?

--Arnt

From: Jeff.Gar...@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/01
Message-ID: <4ere3l$55@brickbat.mindspring.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 137525871
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu> 
<4ep7h1$56d@brickbat.mindspring.com> <d6wspgvp84s.fsf@pentagram.troll.no>
organization: Slack Central
reply-to: jgar...@pobox.com
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps
originator: jgarzik@

Arnt Gulbrandsen  <agul...@troll.no> wrote:
>Does Motif offer multi-platform support?

Yes.  Most modern Unices have Motif, and both Mac and Windows have
source-code-compatible libraries which work well when you want to move to
another client platform.

>Is Motif well-documented?  Is it easy to understand?

Yes.  Documentation:  O'Reilly and Johnson & Reichard will become your best
friends.  Understanding:  If you approach it with the right attitude, both
the paradigm and the Motif library itself are quite easy to learn.

	Jeff

From: t...@maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy)
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/01
Message-ID: <4erjup$2no@bell.maths.tcd.ie>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 137845815
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu> 
<4ep7h1$56d@brickbat.mindspring.com> <d6wspgvp84s.fsf@pentagram.troll.no> 
<4ere3l$55@brickbat.mindspring.com>
organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps

Jeff.Gar...@pobox.com writes:

>Yes.  Most modern Unices have Motif

Do you mean that they come with Motif without extra charge?
I doubt if that is true.
We have 6 versions of Unix at this site,
and none of them come with Motif.

-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail: t...@maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

From: "David L. Johnson" <d...@lehigh.edu>
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/02
Message-ID: <3112BAC5.A1C3F7A@lehigh.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 137805893
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu> 
<4ep7h1$56d@brickbat.mindspring.com> <d6wspgvp84s.fsf@pentagram.troll.no> 
<4ere3l$55@brickbat.mindspring.com> <4erjup$2no@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
organization: Lehigh University
mime-version: 1.0
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps
x-mailer: Mozilla 2.0b6a (X11; I; Linux 1.2.1 i486)

Timothy Murphy wrote:

> >Yes.  Most modern Unices have Motif
> 
> Do you mean that they come with Motif without extra charge?
> I doubt if that is true.
> We have 6 versions of Unix at this site,
> and none of them come with Motif.

Hmm.  A lot of unix versions -- commercial ones -- do come with Motif,
viz: AIX, HP.  I think not all SUN systems come with Motif, but that is
because SUN has/had their own look-and-feel standard.  But considering
the _only_ thing you have to buy for a OSF/Motif type system with linux
is the Motif itself, at $100 or so, it doesn't seem so bad to me,
compared to say SCO.

-- 

David L. Johnson         		d...@lehigh.edu 
Department of Mathematics		http://www.lehigh.edu/~dlj0/dlj0.html
Lehigh University
14 E. Packer Avenue			(610) 758-3759
Bethlehem, PA 18015-3174		(610) 828-3708

From: t...@maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy)
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/03
Message-ID: <4f0sag$su1@bell.maths.tcd.ie>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 137945493
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu> 
<4ep7h1$56d@brickbat.mindspring.com> <d6wspgvp84s.fsf@pentagram.troll.no> 
<4ere3l$55@brickbat.mindspring.com> <4erjup$2no@bell.maths.tcd.ie> 
<3112BAC5.A1C3F7A@lehigh.edu>
organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps

"David L. Johnson" <d...@lehigh.edu> writes:

>Hmm.  A lot of unix versions -- commercial ones -- do come with Motif,
>viz: AIX, HP.  

Do you mean without extra charge?

>I think not all SUN systems come with Motif, but that is
>because SUN has/had their own look-and-feel standard.  But considering
>the _only_ thing you have to buy for a OSF/Motif type system with linux
>is the Motif itself, at $100 or so, it doesn't seem so bad to me,
>compared to say SCO.

What on earth has SCO got to do with it?
I've got nothing against Motif,
but can't understand why anyone should want to buy it,
or care if they don't have it.
What is the merit of an "OSF/Motif type system"?

-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail: t...@maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

From: rksw...@unity.ncsu.edu (Ravi Krishna Swamy)
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/04
Message-ID: <4f12nt$gvo@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 137960879
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu> 
<4erjup$2no@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <3112BAC5.A1C3F7A@lehigh.edu> 
<4f0sag$su1@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
organization: North Carolina State University
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps

In article <4f0sag$...@bell.maths.tcd.ie>,
Timothy Murphy <t...@maths.tcd.ie> wrote:
>"David L. Johnson" <d...@lehigh.edu> writes:
>
>>Hmm.  A lot of unix versions -- commercial ones -- do come with Motif,
>>viz: AIX, HP.  
>
>Do you mean without extra charge?

I believe they are bundled with these systems as in you can't
get them without Motif even if you don't want it.  Commercial
apps for these systems are hopefully dynamically linked
to these libs.  I suppose I could run ldd and find out...

>>I think not all SUN systems come with Motif, but that is
>>because SUN has/had their own look-and-feel standard.  But considering
>>the _only_ thing you have to buy for a OSF/Motif type system with linux
>>is the Motif itself, at $100 or so, it doesn't seem so bad to me,
>>compared to say SCO.
>
>What on earth has SCO got to do with it?

SCO already costs $700 or so and the development kit is even more.
Linux is free and Motif for Linux ranges from $100 to $200 which
is much cheaper than SCO plus Motif.  Now, the Motif development
environment might be nice, I can't really say.

>I've got nothing against Motif,
>but can't understand why anyone should want to buy it,
>or care if they don't have it.
>What is the merit of an "OSF/Motif type system"?

If you want to develop commercial UNIX apps that adhere to
the "industry standard" then you want Motif.  Writing
these apps on Linux would be much cheaper and shouldn't
require too much porting effort.

Ravi
--
Ravi K. Swamy                http://www4.ncsu.edu/~rkswamy/www/
rksw...@eos.ncsu.edu         r...@genom.com

From: t...@maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy)
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/04
Message-ID: <4f1581$8pv@bell.maths.tcd.ie>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 137940154
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu> 
<4erjup$2no@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <3112BAC5.A1C3F7A@lehigh.edu> 
<4f0sag$su1@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4f12nt$gvo@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps

rksw...@unity.ncsu.edu (Ravi Krishna Swamy) writes:

>Now, the Motif development
>environment might be nice, I can't really say.

If you don't know, how can you recommend it?

>If you want to develop commercial UNIX apps that adhere to
>the "industry standard" then you want Motif.  Writing
>these apps on Linux would be much cheaper and shouldn't
>require too much porting effort.

(1) I don't want to develop commercial UNIX apps.
Nor I imagine do 99% of Linux users.

(2) I don't agree that Motif is "the industry standard".
There is no such standard.

(3) People should use Motif if they find it is good,
and should not use it if they don't find it is good.

-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail: t...@maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <agul...@troll.no>
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/04
Message-ID: <d6wzqazc7cd.fsf@pentagram.troll.no>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 138014847
sender: agul...@pentagram.troll.no
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu>
organization: Troll Tech AS, fax +47 22646949
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps

t...@maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy)
> (2) I don't agree that Motif is "the industry standard".
> There is no such standard.

The Motif API certainly isn't an industry standard.  But the Motif
look and feel might well be considered to be, at least if you count
the various lookalikes.

--Arnt

From: ca...@terptavern.umd.edu (Arcadio A. Sincero)
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/10
Message-ID: <slrn4hp938.3e.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 138808101
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu> 
<4ep7h1$56d@brickbat.mindspring.com> <d6wspgvp84s.fsf@pentagram.troll.no> 
<4ere3l$55@brickbat.mindspring.com> <4erjup$2no@bell.maths.tcd.ie> 
<4f8dhh$k1@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
organization: The Terp Tavern
reply-to: l...@wam.umd.edu
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps



What about OpenLook?  Is that GUI dead yet?  I was in the college book store
the other day buying my books and I happened upon a book that showed you how
to code for OpenLook.  If I understand it correctly, OpenLook is free and
comes with SlackWare Linux.  So I bought the book.



-- 
===============================================================================
Arcadio Alivio Sincero, Jr.
Sophomore, Computer Science Major at the University of Maryland at College Park
Amateur competitive bodybuilder
Email: l...@wam.umd.edu, WWW: <still working on it!>

"In the darkest hole; You'd be well advised; Not to plan my funeral;"
"Before the body dies."

From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <agul...@troll.no>
Subject: Re: Is Motif worth getting?
Date: 1996/02/11
Message-ID: <d6wohr5r8zl.fsf@pentagram.troll.no>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 138995104
sender: agul...@pentagram.troll.no
references: <slrn4go67j.2an.cabal@TerpTavern.umd.edu>
organization: Troll Tech AS, fax +47 22646949
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps

ca...@terptavern.umd.edu (Arcadio A. Sincero)
> What about OpenLook?  Is that GUI dead yet?  I was in the college book store
> the other day buying my books and I happened upon a book that showed you how
> to code for OpenLook.  If I understand it correctly, OpenLook is free and
> comes with SlackWare Linux.  So I bought the book.

Openlook is just about dead, yes.  May still stir once in a while, but
I don't think anyone is either extending the library or fixing bugs,

--Arnt

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