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From: wal...@oclc.org (Sean Walton)
Subject: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/13
Message-ID: <5bdccl$a@oclc.org>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 209531897
organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps


Listen everyone, we need some _REAL_ free apps and UI that
will attract more of the serious professionals and users
to Linux.  Therefore...

              Enough with the games!

We have enough time wasters out there.  Please, design tools
and UIs that increases merit to Linux--not attract the clique-
heads.

-Sean Walton, KB7rfa

From: lance reedy <lre...@cyberramp.net>
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/13
Message-ID: <32DA8138.3385EA0@cyberramp.net>#1/1
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references: <5bdcfg$53@oclc.org>
to: Sean Walton <wal...@oclc.org>
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Sean Walton wrote:
> 
> [ Article crossposted from comp.os.linux.development.apps ]
> [ Author was Sean Walton ]
> [ Posted on 13 Jan 1997 08:12:53 -0500 ]
> 
> Listen everyone, we need some _REAL_ free apps and UI that
> will attract more of the serious professionals and users
> to Linux.  Therefore...
> 
>               Enough with the games!
> 
> We have enough time wasters out there.  Please, design tools
> and UIs that increases merit to Linux--not attract the clique-
> heads.
> 
> -Sean Walton, KB7rfa


	I sort of agree, but I sort of don't. I tend to think of applications
as a program you run to do something. Wether you're trying to do your
income taxes, surf the 'net, write a novel, or amuse yourself. So to me
games are applications, not terribly productive ones, but appls
nonetheless.

	I think that Linux needs some high quality commercial programs that are
attractive to general people. I already have MS Office provided by my
employer, so I have little incentive to buy Applixware or NEXS or WP. So
I think that more office-ware is that last thing that Linux needs. A
good graphics program (Adobe style) or Quicken, or a good top notch game
would have my checkboook open immediately though. Hell, I'd even spring
for a non-application like a screensaver with the features of AfterDark.

	But I figure that many commercial developers are shying away from Linux
because of perceived support nightmares. As long as users are (mostly)
knowledgable enough to download and run the latest kernel du-jour most
software houses will be afraid of Linux. Supporting an operating system
that only has 2 versions in use is hard enough for most companies. (You
can tell that I am less than impressed with most support lines I've
called for commercial UNIX appls.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Lance Reedy            
UNIX Sysadmin,
Motorcylcist,
and all around slouch

From: d...@corp.netcom.net.uk (Des Herriott)
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/14
Message-ID: <5bfj9a$j8c$1@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>#1/1
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In article <32DA8138.3385...@cyberramp.net>,
	lance reedy <lre...@cyberramp.net> writes:
>
> 	I think that Linux needs some high quality commercial programs that are
> attractive to general people. I already have MS Office provided by my
> employer, so I have little incentive to buy Applixware or NEXS or WP. So
> I think that more office-ware is that last thing that Linux needs. A
> good graphics program (Adobe style) or Quicken, or a good top notch game
> would have my checkboook open immediately though. Hell, I'd even spring
> for a non-application like a screensaver with the features of AfterDark.

If you want a really good graphics program, check out the Gimp (Gnu
Image Manipulation Program).  It aims to be on a par with Photoshop,
and it's not far off.  Oh, and it's completely free :-)  Check out
http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/~gimp.

As for a really good finance program, Linux doesn't have anything as
polished as Quicken, AFAIK.  Anyone care to correct me?

-- 
Des Herriott
d...@corp.netcom.net.uk

From: wal...@oclc.org (Sean Walton)
Subject: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/14
Message-ID: <5bg0gs$dud@oclc.org>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 209717646
organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.advocacy,
comp.os.linux.misc


[ Article crossposted from comp.os.linux.development.apps ]
[ Author was Sean Walton ]
[ Posted on 14 Jan 1997 08:07:47 -0500 ]

If you sent this, you need to do a better job of aliasing yourself.  If not,
you may want to find out who's routing through you.

In response to your reproach, I _am_ working on free software for
Linux.  I am writing an expert system shell.  What my statement was
trying to do was to rally others--especially those in the academic
arena--to do more projects and give back to the community.

I am also stating a concern that Linux, for all the power that it has gets
far too many game developers when it can do so much more.  Think
about this as a title: "Linux: the Gamers OS".  Kind of sounds like
Atari or Commodor, doesn't it?  It will, and it will have the same puny
following.  Professionals won't use it, because it would not be a "serious
OS".  Businesses won't develop for it, because it a Gamers OS.

I think we need to stop attacking each other and get cracking at making
Linux better & better.  The effort we then would expend would be more
productive and affective, wouldn't you say?

-Sean Walton, KB7rfa
----------
From: Someone
To: walton
Subject: Free Apps
Date: Monday, January 13, 1997 10:35PM

If you want free apps, write them your damn self and stop whining for 
other people to do it.

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----------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Walton (wal...@oclc.org) wrote:
: Listen everyone, we need some _REAL_ free apps and UI that
: will attract more of the serious professionals and users
: to Linux.  Therefore...

:               Enough with the games!

: We have enough time wasters out there.  Please, design tools
: and UIs that increases merit to Linux--not attract the clique-
: heads.

: -Sean Walton, KB7rfa

From: p...@kub.nl (Hans Paaimans)
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/14
Message-ID: <5bgkll$od0@mailnews.kub.nl>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 209852062
references: <5bg0gs$dud@oclc.org>
organization: Tilburg University, Tilburg, The Netherlands
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.advocacy,
comp.os.linux.misc


In article <5bg0gs$...@oclc.org> wal...@oclc.org (Sean Walton) writes:

>I am also stating a concern that Linux, for all the power that it has gets
>far too many game developers when it can do so much more.  Think
>about this as a title: "Linux: the Gamers OS".  Kind of sounds like

Are we talking about the same operating system? As far as I can see,
Linux has a far better 'utility - game' ratio than some OSses I could
mention. I use Linux exactly because it offers some *real* tools that
are either non-existent under Microsoft or cost real big money.

And if you are in AI, have a look at WEKA of those New Zealand guys
before you reinvent some wheels...

Paai


-- 
KUB-University               Tilburg, the Netherlands (+31) (0)13-4662693
Home: Elzenstraat 1, 5581 VS Waalre,  the Netherlands (+31) (0)40-2230680
http://pi0959.kub.nl:2080/paai.html        http://purl.oclc.org/NET/PAAI/

From: wal...@oclc.org (Sean Walton)
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/15
Message-ID: <5bjcrg$46g@oclc.org>#1/1
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Hans Paaimans (p...@kub.nl) wrote:
: In article <5bg0gs$...@oclc.org> wal...@oclc.org (Sean Walton) writes:
:
: >I am also stating a concern that Linux, for all the power that it has gets
: >far too many game developers when it can do so much more.  Think
: >about this as a title: "Linux: the Gamers OS".  Kind of sounds like
:
: Are we talking about the same operating system? As far as I can see,
: Linux has a far better 'utility - game' ratio than some OSses I could
: mention. I use Linux exactly because it offers some *real* tools that
: are either non-existent under Microsoft or cost real big money.

I'm not talking about tools.  I'm talking about:

	- WYSIWYG word processors (I know that there are a couple)
	- WYSIWIG spreadsheet (with graphs, etc.)
	- Interactive database manager/designer (there's lots of DBs, though)
	- Graphic project manager
	- RAD GUI
	- Graphics designer with multimedia
	- Graphic Object Designer with C++ code generator/maintainer
	- COM/SOM-style pluggability

This is what I'm talking about.  Yes, *nix has always had plenty of tools,
but because independent programmers are not often willing to work together
(not just egos, mainly difficulty in coordination between modules and design),
the large, integrated tools are almost infeasible.

: And if you are in AI, have a look at WEKA of those New Zealand guys
: before you reinvent some wheels...

You see, I'm one of those who does not like to work with others at a distance
(so, I'm one of the guilty parties): I honestly don't want to look at legacy
code.  I simply don't have the time.  But I'll do a little research.

: Paai

-Sean Walton

From: Federico Mena <feder...@platypus.nuclecu.unam.mx>
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/16
Message-ID: <38afq9rxh8.fsf@platypus.nuclecu.unam.mx>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 210295757
references: <5bdcfg$53@oclc.org> <32DA8138.3385EA0@cyberramp.net>
organization: Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.advocacy,
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc


mkaga...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:

> ]If you want a really good graphics program, check out the Gimp (Gnu
> ]Image Manipulation Program).  It aims to be on a par with Photoshop,
> ]and it's not far off. 
>  Please, don't be ridiculous.

You have *evidently* not looked at the latest development snapshots,
have you?

  Quartic

From: Federico Mena <feder...@platypus.nuclecu.unam.mx>
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/17
Message-ID: <38sp3z25de.fsf@platypus.nuclecu.unam.mx>#1/1
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organization: Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.advocacy,
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc


mkaga...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:

>  Gimp doesn't provide anything even close to the functionality
>  of Photoshop/Illustrator. Multiple layers ? CMYK color ? 
>  Tons of plug-ins from third-party vendors ? Professionally
>  designed GUI ? etc etc etc. The hell will freeze over before GNU produces
>  anything approaching Photoshop in usefullness.

Let me see.

Multiple layers: we have them on the development snapshots.

CMYK: not there.

Tons of plug-ins: there are about 150 plug-ins available.  How many
plug-ins do *you* have in Photoshop?  How many do you actually use?

GUI: we no longer use bloatif.  Look at the development snapshots (I
have to say, GTK is much nicer than Photoshop's GUI).

And... we did all this in under two years.  How long has Adobe taken
to develop Photoshop?

  Quartic

From: willi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu (William Chow)
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/20
Message-ID: <5bviro$gaq@agate.berkeley.edu>#1/1
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Michael Kagalenko (mkaga...@lynx.dac.neu.edu) wrote:
: Des Herriott (d...@corp.netcom.net.uk) wrote:
: ]In article <5bhk4d$...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>,
: ]	mkaga...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:
: ]> Des Herriott (d...@corp.netcom.net.uk) wrote:
: ]> ]If you want a really good graphics program, check out the Gimp (Gnu
: ]> ]Image Manipulation Program).  It aims to be on a par with Photoshop,
: ]> ]and it's not far off. 
: ]> 
: ]>  Please, don't be ridiculous.
: ]
: ]Flame me if you like, but please have the courtesy to explain why.

:  Gimp doesn't provide anything even close to the functionality
:  of Photoshop/Illustrator. Multiple layers ? CMYK color ? 
:  Tons of plug-ins from third-party vendors ? Professionally
:  designed GUI ? etc etc etc. The hell will freeze over before GNU produces
:  anything approaching Photoshop in usefullness.


DUUHHHH!!! Gimp is being produced by Berkeley XCF members, not by GNU.
Get your facts straight, and it's still in Alpha/Beta stage, so don't
knock it until it's version 1.x. Photoshop has been around for years...

Will

From: d...@corp.netcom.net.uk (Des Herriott)
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/20
Message-ID: <5bvqvj$aq8$1@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>#1/1
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In article <5bviro$...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
	willi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu (William Chow) writes:
> DUUHHHH!!! Gimp is being produced by Berkeley XCF members, not by GNU.
> Get your facts straight, and it's still in Alpha/Beta stage, so don't
> knock it until it's version 1.x. Photoshop has been around for years...

OK, so why does the first piece of text on:

  http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/~gimp/gimp.html

say "GNU Image Manipulation Program"?

-- 
Des Herriott
d...@corp.netcom.net.uk

From: i...@inconnu.isu.edu (Inconnu)
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/20
Message-ID: <5c0sd1$eoc@inconnu.isu.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 211234893
references: <5bg0gs$dud@oclc.org> <5bgkll$od0@mailnews.kub.nl> 
<5bjcrg$46g@oclc.org>
organization: Idaho State University
newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.advocacy,
comp.os.linux.misc


In article <5bjcrg$...@oclc.org>, Sean Walton <wal...@oclc.org> wrote:

[snip "Linux doesn't have enough tools"]

->I'm not talking about tools.  I'm talking about:
->
->	- WYSIWYG word processors (I know that there are a couple)
->	- WYSIWIG spreadsheet (with graphs, etc.)

Corel's Office for Java is running on my machine right now, although
ApplixWare is still better (the COJ is a beta).  There are several types
of graphs.

->	- Interactive database manager/designer (there's lots of DBs, though)

What?  Like SQL?  I can manage our Oracle databases over X.

->	- Graphic project manager

Hmmmm, you may have me there-- but documentation+email is ususally better.
;)

->	- RAD GUI

What's the difference between a RAD GUI and a normal GUI?

->	- Graphics designer with multimedia
->	- Graphic Object Designer with C++ code generator/maintainer

There are at least three packages (for C++) that I know of.

->	- COM/SOM-style pluggability

Unix provides this functionallity in other ways (pipes and small program
tools); but there are specs on the table (OpenStep namely) for providing
this.  

->This is what I'm talking about.  Yes, *nix has always had plenty of tools,
->but because independent programmers are not often willing to work together
->the large, integrated tools are almost infeasible.

Linux is deficient in graphical design (yes, I use the gimp), professional 
database and integrated GUI (some sort of object+drag-and-drop system).

Granted.  

However, I'm *sure* that I could name more points where Windows falls
short of unix.  Just wait until Wine/dosemu are done.

Its pretty funny that when comparing Microsoft's flagship product with
a free one, people can only nitpick about a couple of points.

-- 
Craig Kelley 
  "The goal of science is to build better mousetraps.  The goal of nature
   is to build better mice."
kellc...@cwis.isu.edu  (http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai) finger for PGP block

From: wal...@oclc.org (Sean Walton)
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/21
Message-ID: <5c2gvk$1bm@oclc.org>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 211254817
references: <5bg0gs$dud@oclc.org> <5bgkll$od0@mailnews.kub.nl> 
<5bjcrg$46g@oclc.org> <5c0sd1$eoc@inconnu.isu.edu>
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FINALLY AN INTELLIGENT--NON-FLAMING--RESPONSE.

Inconnu (i...@inconnu.isu.edu) wrote:
: In article <5bjcrg$...@oclc.org>, Sean Walton <wal...@oclc.org> wrote:
: ->I'm not talking about tools.  I'm talking about:
: ->
: ->	- WYSIWYG word processors (I know that there are a couple)
: ->	- WYSIWIG spreadsheet (with graphs, etc.)
:
: Corel's Office for Java is running on my machine right now, although
: ApplixWare is still better (the COJ is a beta).  There are several types
: of graphs.

These, in fact, are the ones I was counting.  However, the interoperability
[I think] is still not there.  That's where OpenStep will hopefully help.

: ->	- Interactive database manager/designer (there's lots of DBs, though)
:
: What?  Like SQL?  I can manage our Oracle databases over X.

No.  SQL is a language not an interface.  There are many DBs for *nix which
have their appearance on Linux, but AFAIK none have a GUI interface that
simplefies queries, input, report design, etc.  Again interoperability would
allow another app to call up one of the report or input GUIs and allow direct
database manipulation without the full application.

: ->	- Graphic project manager
:
: Hmmmm, you may have me there-- but documentation+email is ususally better.

Let me clarify: a "graphical project manager" is a visual tool similar to
a C++ class builder but does several things:

	1. Manages files and dependencies
	2. Identifies crosslinks and "super-dependencies"
	3. Tracks "code turmoil"
	4. Tracks "code complexity"
	5. Offers an interactive graphical representation of call
	   structure with point-and-click editing

Picture this thing like a large window that shows a box for every routine
(or file) inter connected with lines that represent call paths.  No outside
database is needed to manage this: it can be drawn from the existing project
itself.

: ->	- RAD GUI
:
: What's the difference between a RAD GUI and a normal GUI?

Envision Delphi or C++Builder.  RAD [Rapid Application Development] allows a 
developer to create X11 programs visually minimizing the need to know the
XLib API.  Let's be honest: those that argue that "proper GUI programming is
exclusively through direct APIs" are more concerned about keep their jobs
security than getting the job done quickly.  I was amazed to see a Salt Lake
City, UT, job offer that required API-exclusive programmers.  What's more
important: the cleverness of the GUI or the application?
Like I said before: I am not a GUI programmer--mind you, I would love to be.
But, I have to focus on my speciality: core technology programming.  I don't
have time to waste on the GUI.  I want something that will be easy to use
and intuitive so that my algorithms get their use.

: ->	- Graphics designer with multimedia
: ->	- Graphic Object Designer with C++ code generator/maintainer
:
: There are at least three packages (for C++) that I know of.

First, do we have something for the former (multimedia graphics designer)?
Second, what are they?  Are they GPL?  I would like to see them & know
more about them.

: ->	- COM/SOM-style pluggability
:
: Unix provides this functionallity in other ways (pipes and small program
: tools); but there are specs on the table (OpenStep namely) for providing
: this.  

Cool.  I look forward to it.

: ->This is what I'm talking about.  Yes, *nix has always had plenty of tools,
: ->but because independent programmers are not often willing to work together
: ->the large, integrated tools are almost infeasible.
:
: Linux is deficient in graphical design (yes, I use the gimp), professional 
: database and integrated GUI (some sort of object+drag-and-drop system).
:
: Granted.  
:
: However, I'm *sure* that I could name more points where Windows falls
: short of unix.  Just wait until Wine/dosemu are done.
:
: Its pretty funny that when comparing Microsoft's flagship product with
: a free one, people can only nitpick about a couple of points.

no No NO!!!  I am not comparing Linux to M$loth.  While some of my ideas
stem from apps found on it, I am stating that in order to facilitate better
GUI application development, I am suggesting these ideas.  One of the
reasons I like Linux so much is that it is several orders of magnitude more
robust than Blindoze.  My personal opinion of M$ and their "products" are
beside the point.

One thing that is important here: when Wine is completed, will it have
OLE?  Will it support ActiveX?  Can it do drag & drop?  I don't think it
will until we get OpenStep up & running.  If I am right, we won't have the
100% compliance & compatibility that everyone is hoping for.

-Sean Walton, KB7rfa

From: bwin...@read.the.header.for.my.address (Blake Winton)
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/22
Message-ID: <5c5hs6$r9k@nr1.toronto.istar.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 211499484
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<5bjafa$bds@lynx.dac.neu.edu> <5bviro$gaq@agate.berkeley.edu>
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In article <5bviro$...@agate.berkeley.edu>, willi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu 
(William Chow) wrote:
>Michael Kagalenko (mkaga...@lynx.dac.neu.edu) wrote:
>: Des Herriott (d...@corp.netcom.net.uk) wrote:
>: ]In article <5bhk4d$...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>,
>: ]     mkaga...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:
>: ]> Des Herriott (d...@corp.netcom.net.uk) wrote:
>: ]> ]If you want a really good graphics program, check out the Gimp (Gnu
>: ]> ]Image Manipulation Program).  It aims to be on a par with Photoshop,
>: ]> ]and it's not far off. 
>: ]> 
>: ]>  Please, don't be ridiculous.
>: ]
>: ]Flame me if you like, but please have the courtesy to explain why.
>
>:  Gimp doesn't provide anything even close to the functionality
>:  of Photoshop/Illustrator. Multiple layers ? CMYK color ? 
>:  Tons of plug-ins from third-party vendors ? Professionally
>:  designed GUI ? etc etc etc. The hell will freeze over before GNU produces
>:  anything approaching Photoshop in usefullness.
>
>DUUHHHH!!! Gimp is being produced by Berkeley XCF members, not by GNU.
>Get your facts straight, and it's still in Alpha/Beta stage, so don't
>knock it until it's version 1.x. Photoshop has been around for years...

Then the original poster shouldn't have made the claim that it's not far 
off of a par with Photoshop.  Perhaps it's on a par with Photoshop 0.99 
beta, but no-one's using that now.  And the original point still stands, 
until there are some really good graphics programs out there, people 
won't use it.  (Well not graphics programs in particular, but quality 
apps in general.)

Blake.

(Don't flame me, my company is moving to Linux as a development platform 
 already.)

From: Bill Gribble <g...@cs.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Enough with the games!
Date: 1997/01/22
Message-ID: <87hgk9sish.fsf@firetrap.cs.utexas.edu>#1/1
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sender: g...@firetrap.cs.utexas.edu
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newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.advocacy,
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc


I'm going to get the attribution wrong because this is such a nested 
post.  Sorry if it looks like you said something that you didn't.  I
want to address the factual inaccuracies, and I don't really care who 
said them. 

bwin...@read.the.header.for.my.address (Blake Winton) writes:
> >:  Gimp doesn't provide anything even close to the functionality
> >:  of Photoshop/Illustrator. Multiple layers ? CMYK color ? 
> >:  Tons of plug-ins from third-party vendors ? Professionally
> >:  designed GUI ? etc etc etc. The hell will freeze over before GNU produces
> >:  anything approaching Photoshop in usefullness.

This is all wrong.  The current release of GIMP (for developers only,
but you can get it from the GIMP ftp site) has: 

  Multiple layers.  With transparency and automatic antialiasing between
     layers.  
  CMYK color. 
  Tons of plug-ins (last list I saw had about 100) from third parties,
     and a well-documented API for writing them, and
     functional copies of many Photoshop and Kai plugins. 
  Excellent GUI.  
  Documentation and web tutorials for doing nifty stuff. 
  A command line interaction shell with the program so that you can 
    write and execute Scheme programs WHILE EDITING IMAGES to process the
    images.  You show me ANY commercial program that has something like this.

Not to mention a very, very active user and developer community -- GIMP
people have some extremely thorough web pages and mailing lists.  
Start at http://www.nuclecu.unam.mx/~federico/gimp/el-the-gimp.html.

> Then the original poster shouldn't have made the claim that it's not far 
> off of a par with Photoshop.  Perhaps it's on a par with Photoshop 0.99 
> beta, but no-one's using that now. 

The developers claim that GIMP-0.60 (the development release) is
catching and surpassing the current release of PhotoShop.  I agree.
You should look at it before you make comparisons like this.  The GIMP
is one of the most impressive and together programming projects I have
seen in a long time.  

Bill Gribble

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