Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?

Message-Id: <4.1.19981124135919.06c8e850@127.0.0.1>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:59:58 -0700
To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Brett Glass < brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?
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See

http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16107.html

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To: Brett Glass < brett@lariat.org>
cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:59:58 MST."
             <4.1.19981124135919.06c8e850@127.0.0.1> 
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:14:10 -0800
Message-ID: <48004.911945650@zippy.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" < jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
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> http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16107.html

FreeBSD probably wasn't on their radar.  More helpful indeed would any
suggestions on your part (and possibly organizational efforts) on what
it takes to get on mexican radar screens.

As is my usual gripe in advocacy, what we really need around here
aren't a bunch of firemen who arrive at the scene of the fire well
after it has already consumed the building and stand around saying
meaningful things like "This was a fire!  It appears to have burned
down the building!  Fires are bad, someone should do something."

Such firemen are obviously of no use at all and should probably go
into less challenging professions like chicken inspection or lavatory
maintenance.  What we need are firemen who actually arrive in time to
have a meaningful affect on fires *as they are happening* or can turn
practical expertise towards preventing fires in the first place. :-)

In this specific case, what would have constituted attacking the fire
rather than the ashes would have been to let me know about this well
before the selection process took place so that I could have sent
these folks some evaluation CDs and possibly a book or two.  I send
literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise to schools
and other educational programs every year and will continue to do so,
but people still have to tell me where to send them since I'm not
psychic here, folks!

- Jordan

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From: Terry Lambert < tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199811272152.OAA19036@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?
To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:52:38 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: brett@lariat.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <48004.911945650@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 24, 98 02:14:10 pm
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> As is my usual gripe in advocacy, what we really need around here
> aren't a bunch of firemen who arrive at the scene of the fire well
> after it has already consumed the building and stand around saying
> meaningful things like "This was a fire!  It appears to have burned
> down the building!  Fires are bad, someone should do something."
> 
> Such firemen are obviously of no use at all and should probably go
> into less challenging professions like chicken inspection or lavatory
> maintenance.  What we need are firemen who actually arrive in time to
> have a meaningful affect on fires *as they are happening* or can turn
> practical expertise towards preventing fires in the first place. :-)

Actually, the fire will be burning an awful long time; so long as
Linux is in Mexican schools, there is a need for a FreeBSD fire
brigade on the school grounds, hoses at ready.

For a FreeBSD fireman to be effective, there is an aching need for
firefighting equipment; FreeBSD has little.

One thing that would go a long way towards this is to get a most
recent RedHat Linux system installed, and figure out what software
you need to write to "upgrade" it to FreeBSD without reinstalling
everything.

Here are some starting points:

o	FreeBSD is still third-party layered software unfriendly
	(some would call it antagonistic).  There is no real
	method in FreeBSD for installing software that is supposed
	to start at system startup and shutdown gracefully at
	system shutdown.

	Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process.  This is political
	suicide, but technological necessity.

o	FreeBSD EXT2FS support is less robust than it should be.

	Fix: Create a stress-test framework in which progress
	toward repairing EXT2FS can be made, and repair it.

o	FreeBSD kernels can not be booted with Linux boot code.

	Fix: Add support for booting Linux kernels to the FreeBSD
	multistage boot code, such that the Linux boot blocks can
	be replaced with FreeBSD boot blocks without losing Linux
	functionality.  This means adding features to the FreeBSD
	boot blocks.  Alternately, and more restrictive to future
	work, make FreeBSD capable of being booted using Linux
	boot blocks.

o	FreeBSD Linux emulation leaves something to be desired
	(something called "Linux emulation").  This is most
	apparent in the FreeBSD inability to run some kernel
	threaded applications, like Oracle 8 for Linux.

	Fix: Get a copy of Oracle 8  for Linux, install it on
	FreeBSD (in violation of the license) and Make It Work(tm).

o	FreeBSD can not install RPM packages.

	Fix: Port the RPM code, either from RedHat (I don't think
	this is actually available) or from one of the Linux camps
	that have reverse engineered the code (S.U.S.E. would be
	a good starting point, since they work heavily on RedHat
	Linux emulation themselves).

o	FreeBSD doesn't support the Linux libvga.

	Fix: Someone port the frigging thing, already.

Oh, by the way, one could substitute "Solaris" for "Linux" in the
above (and SVR4 UFS and BFS for EXT2FS, and SVR4 PKG for RPM...)
and have a hell of a lot larger software base than the Linux
software base.

It's not a matter of figuring out what to do; that's easy.  It's
a matter of will, and it's a matter of prying things like the
BSD init process out of the cold, dead hands of the powers that be.

					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

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Message-Id: <199811290408.XAA11525@y.dyson.net>
Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?
In-Reply-To: <199811272152.OAA19036@usr02.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 27, 98 09:52:38 pm"
To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:08:36 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, brett@lariat.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" < dyson@iquest.net>
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Terry Lambert said:
> 
> o	FreeBSD is still third-party layered software unfriendly
> 	(some would call it antagonistic).  There is no real
> 	method in FreeBSD for installing software that is supposed
> 	to start at system startup and shutdown gracefully at
> 	system shutdown.
> 
> 	Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process.  This is political
> 	suicide, but technological necessity.
>
No question about that.  SYSV init or something close to that
is necessary.

> 
> o	FreeBSD Linux emulation leaves something to be desired
> 	(something called "Linux emulation").  This is most
> 	apparent in the FreeBSD inability to run some kernel
> 	threaded applications, like Oracle 8 for Linux.
> 
> 	Fix: Get a copy of Oracle 8  for Linux, install it on
> 	FreeBSD (in violation of the license) and Make It Work(tm).
> 
We are getting close to shipping pthreads on NetBSD at work.  I am
asking for permission to donate it to FreeBSD.  Since I am no
longer involved with FreeBSD, there are more political issues to
deal with now.

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.

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Message-ID: <3660E1E8.27016719@softweyr.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 22:55:52 -0700
From: Wes Peters < wes@softweyr.com>
Organization: Softweyr llc
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To: dyson@iquest.net
CC: Terry Lambert < tlambert@primenet.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?
References: <199811290408.XAA11525@y.dyson.net>
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"John S. Dyson" wrote:
> 
> Terry Lambert said:
> >
> > o     FreeBSD is still third-party layered software unfriendly
> >       (some would call it antagonistic).  There is no real
> >       method in FreeBSD for installing software that is supposed
> >       to start at system startup and shutdown gracefully at
> >       system shutdown.
> >
> >       Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process.  This is political
> >       suicide, but technological necessity.
> >
> No question about that.  SYSV init or something close to that
> is necessary.

It shouldn't be all that difficult; have the arguments in that past 
been "it's just not BSD-ish?"

-- 
       "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters                                                 Softweyr LLC
http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr                      wes@softweyr.com

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Message-ID: <19981129175648.F456@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:56:48 +1030
From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: Wes Peters < wes@softweyr.com>, dyson@iquest.net
Cc: Terry Lambert < tlambert@primenet.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?
References: <199811290408.XAA11525@y.dyson.net> <3660E1E8.27016719@softweyr.com>
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On Saturday, 28 November 1998 at 22:55:52 -0700, Wes Peters wrote:
> "John S. Dyson" wrote:
>>
>> Terry Lambert said:
>>>
>>> o     FreeBSD is still third-party layered software unfriendly
>>>       (some would call it antagonistic).  There is no real
>>>       method in FreeBSD for installing software that is supposed
>>>       to start at system startup and shutdown gracefully at
>>>       system shutdown.
>>>
>>>       Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process.  This is political
>>>       suicide, but technological necessity.
>>>
>> No question about that.  SYSV init or something close to that
>> is necessary.
>
> It shouldn't be all that difficult; have the arguments in that past
> been "it's just not BSD-ish?"

OK, I must be missing something, but what does System V init have that
makes it easier to start up or shut down an application?  /etc/rc*.d
isn't the problem: that's a question of scripts, not init.

Greg
--
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Message-Id: <199811290732.CAA35872@y.dyson.net>
Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?
In-Reply-To: <3660E1E8.27016719@softweyr.com> from Wes Peters at "Nov 28, 98 10:55:52 pm"
To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:32:27 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" < dyson@iquest.net>
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Wes Peters said:
> "John S. Dyson" wrote:
> > 
> > Terry Lambert said:
> > >
> > > o     FreeBSD is still third-party layered software unfriendly
> > >       (some would call it antagonistic).  There is no real
> > >       method in FreeBSD for installing software that is supposed
> > >       to start at system startup and shutdown gracefully at
> > >       system shutdown.
> > >
> > >       Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process.  This is political
> > >       suicide, but technological necessity.
> > >
> > No question about that.  SYSV init or something close to that
> > is necessary.
> 
> It shouldn't be all that difficult; have the arguments in that past 
> been "it's just not BSD-ish?"
> 
I believe that you are right.  Anyone (IMO) who has really used a
SYSV style init (and understands it), will find that it is a valuable
tool.  Expecting it to solve *all* problems is probably a little too
demanding.  However, IMO, it is a good tool that could help manage
system startup and package startup/shutdown, etc.  As any valuable
tool, SYSV init can cause problems -- but then if it hurts (SYSV init
does something evil), then don't make it do the evil thing!!! :-).

One can hack a solution with BSD init, but it ends up implementing
subsets of SYSV init.  Why not go all the way and just do it?  If
SYSV init has serious problems (which it is indeed NOT perfect), then
implement either a better version, or start moving forward with an
existant version, and then move forward from there.

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.

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Message-Id: <199811290733.CAA35884@y.dyson.net>
Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?
In-Reply-To: <19981129175648.F456@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 29, 98 05:56:48 pm"
To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:33:53 -0500 (EST)
Cc: wes@softweyr.com, dyson@iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com,
        advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" < dyson@iquest.net>
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Greg Lehey said:
> 
> OK, I must be missing something, but what does System V init have that
> makes it easier to start up or shut down an application?  /etc/rc*.d
> isn't the problem: that's a question of scripts, not init.
> 
Init supports runmodes (good or bad -- I don't care -- if one doesn't like
it, then don't use them.)  SysV init has an established set of standards
for usage of startup/shutdown files.  It doesn't solve ALL problems, but
moves forward, other than just staying idle.

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.

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Message-ID: <19981129183019.H456@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:30:19 +1030
From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: dyson@iquest.net
Cc: wes@softweyr.com, tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?
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On Sunday, 29 November 1998 at  2:33:53 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> Greg Lehey said:
>>
>> OK, I must be missing something, but what does System V init have that
>> makes it easier to start up or shut down an application?  /etc/rc*.d
>> isn't the problem: that's a question of scripts, not init.
>>
> Init supports runmodes (good or bad -- I don't care -- if one doesn't like
> it, then don't use them.)  

OK.  The *idea* of run modes seems to make sense, and I wouldn't
change the System V method on a system which had it, but how useful is
it really?  Consider:

Run state	Meaning		BSD init
0		halt		halt
1		single user	shutdown
2		multi user,	Whaat??
		no network
3		multiuser	(multiuser; stop single user)
4		undefined
		(most systems)	can't see any equivalent on PCs
5		PROM monitor	
6		reboot		reboot

Where's the important difference?

> SysV init has an established set of standards for usage of
> startup/shutdown files.  It doesn't solve ALL problems, but moves
> forward, other than just staying idle.

Sure, but as I said, that's all a question of scripts.

Greg
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Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?
In-Reply-To: <19981129183019.H456@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 29, 98 06:30:19 pm"
To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:29:58 -0500 (EST)
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Greg Lehey said:
> 
> OK.  The *idea* of run modes seems to make sense, and I wouldn't
> change the System V method on a system which had it, but how useful is
> it really?  Consider:
> 
> Run state	Meaning		BSD init
> 0		halt		halt
> 1		single user	shutdown
> 2		multi user,	Whaat??
> 		no network
> 3		multiuser	(multiuser; stop single user)
> 4		undefined
> 		(most systems)	can't see any equivalent on PCs
> 5		PROM monitor	
> 6		reboot		reboot
> 
> Where's the important difference?
>
Add additional packages, and see that BSD init ends up more
and more inadequate.

> 
> > SysV init has an established set of standards for usage of
> > startup/shutdown files.  It doesn't solve ALL problems, but moves
> > forward, other than just staying idle.
> 
> Sure, but as I said, that's all a question of scripts.
> 
Also, it is all a question of C-code, but a framework enables
better organization.  However SYSV-init is implemented, vendors
do use it.

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.

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From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: dyson@iquest.net
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Subject: System V init (was: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?)
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[moved to -hackers]

On Sunday, 29 November 1998 at  9:29:58 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> Greg Lehey said:
>>
>> OK.  The *idea* of run modes seems to make sense, and I wouldn't
>> change the System V method on a system which had it, but how useful is
>> it really?  Consider:
>>
>> Run state	Meaning		BSD init
>> 0		halt		halt
>> 1		single user	shutdown
>> 2		multi user,	Whaat??
>> 		no network
>> 3		multiuser	(multiuser; stop single user)
>> 4		undefined
>> 		(most systems)	can't see any equivalent on PCs
>> 5		PROM monitor
>> 6		reboot		reboot
>>
>> Where's the important difference?
>
> Add additional packages, and see that BSD init ends up more
> and more inadequate.

I still don't see why.  We have a method to run application startup
and shutdown scripts already.  Could you be more specific?

>>> SysV init has an established set of standards for usage of
>>> startup/shutdown files.  It doesn't solve ALL problems, but moves
>>> forward, other than just staying idle.
>>
>> Sure, but as I said, that's all a question of scripts.
>
> Also, it is all a question of C-code,

Where?

> but a framework enables better organization.  However SYSV-init is
> implemented, vendors do use it.

I suppose there's one point there.  But the only difference for
installing under FreeBSD would be the name of the startup file.

Greg
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