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List:       linux-video
Subject:    RealMagic Hollywood support?
From:       Mike Frisch <mfrisch () saturn ! tlug ! org>
Date:       1999-04-08 13:34:34


Any chance of getting RealMagic Hollywood support in the near future?
(This is a dedicated DVD decoder card from what I understand).  Has
anybody approached the company about providing specs?

Mike.

======================================================================
  Mike Frisch                         Email: mfrisch@saturn.tlug.org
  Northstar Technologies        WWW: http://saturn.tlug.org/~mfrisch
  Newmarket, Ontario, CANADA
======================================================================


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List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: RealMagic Hollywood support?
From:       "matthew.r.pavlovich.1" <mpav () purdue ! edu>
Date:       1999-04-08 14:08:14

Mike,
	
The director of marketing from Sigma Designs (maker of hollywood magic)
contacted me because of my work on the DVD project, and he finally came to
the conclusion that the only way they could have a driver, is if they did
it in-house.  They are very interested in providing Linux support, however
their card does not do the DVD copyprotection on-chip.  The software
driver must provide the decoding algorithm.  There is a chance that
someone could reverse engineer the card to do simple mpeg decoding, but
DVD decoding would be nearly impossible to accomplsh.

-Matt  



On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Mike Frisch wrote:

> 
> Any chance of getting RealMagic Hollywood support in the near future?
> (This is a dedicated DVD decoder card from what I understand).  Has
> anybody approached the company about providing specs?
> 
> Mike.
> 
> ======================================================================
>   Mike Frisch                         Email: mfrisch@saturn.tlug.org
>   Northstar Technologies        WWW: http://saturn.tlug.org/~mfrisch
>   Newmarket, Ontario, CANADA
> ======================================================================
> 
> 
> -- 
>          To unsubscribe: mail video4linux-list-request@redhat.com with 
>                        "unsubscribe" as the Subject.
> 
> 



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List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: RealMagic Hollywood support?
From:       Alan Cox <alan () cymru ! net>
Date:       1999-04-08 14:31:47

> their card does not do the DVD copyprotection on-chip.  The software
> driver must provide the decoding algorithm.  There is a chance that
> someone could reverse engineer the card to do simple mpeg decoding, but
> DVD decoding would be nearly impossible to accomplsh.

One possible approach for that is to actually write a libdvd which contains
stuff like the copyprotection and isn't open source. Sucky but perhaps a
compromise that is workable ?

The DVD copything will get broken, the millions of dollars the big studios
are paying their pet senators to lobby for strong anti-reverse-engineering,
anti-security-analysis laws are clear proof of that.

Alan


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List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: RealMagic Hollywood support?
From:       Mike Frisch <mfrisch () saturn ! tlug ! org>
Date:       1999-04-08 18:04:37

On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, matthew.r.pavlovich.1 wrote:

> it in-house.  They are very interested in providing Linux support, however
> their card does not do the DVD copyprotection on-chip.  The software

Do other cards (ie. ATI, Creative Labs, etc) have the DVD decryption logic
on-chip?  (Sorry if this is a naive question, but I am not at all familiar
with these things).  What about Linux support for those?

Mike.


======================================================================
  Mike Frisch                         Email: mfrisch@saturn.tlug.org
  Northstar Technologies        WWW: http://saturn.tlug.org/~mfrisch
  Newmarket, Ontario, CANADA
======================================================================


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List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: RealMagic Hollywood support?
From:       "matthew.r.pavlovich.1" <mpav () purdue ! edu>
Date:       1999-04-08 18:24:54

> 
> Do other cards (ie. ATI, Creative Labs, etc) have the DVD decryption logic
> on-chip?  (Sorry if this is a naive question, but I am not at all familiar
> with these things).  What about Linux support for those?
> 

I am still trying to get the guys at openprojexts.net to give me space,
for the linuxdvd project.  I plan on extending my project to include other
chipsets, in an effort to pool resources and come to consensus on (if any)
changes to V4L2, players, libs, etc.

I am heading the Matrox DVD project right now. I have all the docs for the
G200, the Zoran Vaddis (Decoder chip) and I am trying to get more help
from matrox on two other chips.  

I doubt ATI will come forth with docs, look how long it took to get TV
docs.  Creative Labs decoder may do the copyright on chip, but I am not
sure.  The Zoran Vaddis (Matrox DVD) for sure does the DVD decoding on
chip.  I am trying to find add-in boarrds that have this chip so people
with out Matrox G200 series cards can have support.  Any other questions,
contqact me.  Sorry for the bad spelling, low bandiwth don't want to fix.

-Matt

P.S. If a lib was reverse engineered to do the DVD copyright stuff, could
it be open source, or would it have to be released in a binary form?  I am
not familiar with the DVD consortium or what ever.  I would figure they
would be pissed if it was reverse engineered, and even more so if it was
open source.  This is, of course, all  just if someone wanted to
*hypothetically* reverse engineer the format.


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List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: RealMagic Hollywood support?
From:       Zach Fine <czyz () u ! washington ! edu>
Date:       1999-04-08 19:50:34


One would think that they'd be able to develop their own, closed
source, binary only standalone application or library that would
handle the copy-protection, and could let the open source community
write their own drivers for everything else. 

Does Sigma Designs actually think it will be that much more difficult
for a determined person to find the DVD encryption instructions in an
all-inclusive driver than it would to find those instructions in a
smaller binary that only handles DVD decoding?  

It's not as though the Linux community is all that sinister. I'd be
surprised if someone hasn't already disassembled the Windows driver
for the card and discovered the mechanism.

If Sigma Designs would release an API for their card minus the DVD
decoding information, and released a standalone binary that would take
care of just the DVD decoding, they would benefit in the long run via
increased hardware sales to users of free OSes and the rapid
development of good, open-source drivers for Linux and other
free-unices that everyone would be happy with.

FWIW there is a market out there. I'll probably be buying the first
DVD player and decoder card that I can use with NetBSD.

-Zach Fine
czyz@u.washington.edu


>>>>> ""matthew" == "matthew r pavlovich 1" <mpav@purdue.edu> writes:

    "matthew> Mike,
	
    "matthew> The director of marketing from Sigma Designs (maker of
    "matthew> hollywood magic) contacted me because of my work on the
    "matthew> DVD project, and he finally came to the conclusion that
    "matthew> the only way they could have a driver, is if they did it
    "matthew> in-house.  They are very interested in providing Linux
    "matthew> support, however their card does not do the DVD
    "matthew> copyprotection on-chip.  The software driver must
    "matthew> provide the decoding algorithm.  There is a chance that
    "matthew> someone could reverse engineer the card to do simple
    "matthew> mpeg decoding, but DVD decoding would be nearly
    "matthew> impossible to accomplsh.

    "matthew> -Matt



    "matthew> On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Mike Frisch wrote:

    >>  Any chance of getting RealMagic Hollywood support in the near
    >> future?  (This is a dedicated DVD decoder card from what I
    >> understand).  Has anybody approached the company about
    >> providing specs?
    >> 
    >> Mike.
    >> 
    >> ======================================================================
    >> Mike Frisch Email: mfrisch@saturn.tlug.org Northstar
    >> Technologies WWW: http://saturn.tlug.org/~mfrisch Newmarket,
    >> Ontario, CANADA


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List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: RealMagic Hollywood support?
From:       "matthew.r.pavlovich.1" <mpav () purdue ! edu>
Date:       1999-04-08 20:14:47

> 
> One would think that they'd be able to develop their own, closed
> source, binary only standalone application or library that would
> handle the copy-protection, and could let the open source community
> write their own drivers for everything else. 

I don't think so.  You are supposed to pay $5000 for the rights to the
spec, however if you reverse engineer it, you don't need their spec info,
but I am sure there are other legal remifications.. I didn't know if
someone knew specifically what they were.

> 
> Does Sigma Designs actually think it will be that much more difficult
> for a determined person to find the DVD encryption instructions in an
> all-inclusive driver than it would to find those instructions in a
> smaller binary that only handles DVD decoding?  

Sigma Designs is _very_ interested in supporting Linux, they simply need
to protect themselves, and I agree entirely with their policy on this.  I
think that them making an effort to write a driver is above and beyond
what most hardware companies are doing.  I think they should be commended
for their interest (assuming they provide a driver at some point).

> It's not as though the Linux community is all that sinister. I'd be
> surprised if someone hasn't already disassembled the Windows driver
> for the card and discovered the mechanism.

I agree.  The DVD copyprotection ppl don't realize that there are
engineers and programmers out there that are as good if not better than
the ppl that come up with the spec.  It is their own short coming.

> If Sigma Designs would release an API for their card minus the DVD
> decoding information, and released a standalone binary that would take
> care of just the DVD decoding, they would benefit in the long run via
> increased hardware sales to users of free OSes and the rapid
> development of good, open-source drivers for Linux and other
> free-unices that everyone would be happy with.

That is a good idea.  I will contact Sigma Designs with this notion.
Having hardware MPEG support would still be a benefit.  Then you could
watch the mpg version of the Star Wars Trailer w/o having to hastle your
CPU.  (I think the MPEG ver of the trailer is not *official*)

> FWIW there is a market out there. I'll probably be buying the first
> DVD player and decoder card that I can use with NetBSD.

Hopefully we can find a DVD add-on card that has the Vaddis chip on it.
This chip is really powerful and provides more features than the average
decoder chip.  It has a 40 MIPS dsp decoder, that after Dolby AC-3
decoding about 10 MIPS is available.  They recommend using this for adding
3d effects for sound systems w/o 3d support.  This sounds really cool.  

-Matt


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List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: RealMagic Hollywood support?
From:       Alan Cox <alan () cymru ! net>
Date:       1999-04-08 23:13:15

> P.S. If a lib was reverse engineered to do the DVD copyright stuff, could
> it be open source, or would it have to be released in a binary form?  I am
> not familiar with the DVD consortium or what ever.  I would figure they
> would be pissed if it was reverse engineered, and even more so if it was
> open source.  This is, of course, all  just if someone wanted to
> *hypothetically* reverse engineer the format.

The opinion I got is that if someone does this they should _not_ release
code but decode it and then post a full detailed explanation in words and
mathematics to the cryptography groups - possibly anonymously. 

The legal situation on code and 1st amendment rights isnt clear. The
situation on attempting to stop someone publishing "An insiders guide to
CSS-1" is _quite_ clear in the USA.

Alan


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