Technology and Trends
 Video for Linux Mailing List Archives
  
List:       linux-video
Subject:    No DVD support from Sigma?
From:       Määttänen_Tuomas <m153363 () assari ! cc ! tut ! fi>
Date:       1999-05-12 19:16:14

Hi,

it seems there will be no support from Sigma Designs for
the current Hollywood+ decoder card. 

The following two messages were posted to their news server 
earlier today. I have edited the messages a bit but note that
Jouni is _quoting_ a mail from tech support. The original
messages should be available from:

<news://news.realmagic.com/37395794.8A27A4B0@elinar.fi>
<news://news.realmagic.com/3739AE10.D75CE000@elinar.fi>

--- cut ---

From: Jouni Hiltunen < jouni.hiltunen@elinar.fi>
Subject: No linux support for H+

Part of the answer I got from SigmaDesigns:

> I have spoken to the product manager for the Hollywood
> Plus regarding to Linux support.  He informed me that we will support
> Linux for a future decoder/playback product but not for the current
> Hollywood Plus.

--- cut -- 

and the second one:

--- cut ---

From: Jouni Hiltunen <jouni.hiltunen@elinar.fi>
Subject: Re: No linux support for H+

>                In response to previous requests for the release of
> specifications to write Linux drivers here is what our QA engineer
> manager has to say:
>                        "We cannot release programming specifications
> for Linux development since the decoding of the CSS encrypted movies are
> ferociously protected by the Movie Entertainment Industry.
> Unfortunately, this kind of info cannot be released freely."
>
>                                Thanks for your interest in our product.
> Sorry I cannot be of more help.  Per your instruction, I have added you
> to our mailing list.  Good luck with your endeavors.

--- cut ---

Has there been any progress on other fronts than Sigma?

/* Tuomas Määttänen              maattanen@iki.fi
 * Tampere, Finland
 *                               Linux - the choice of a GNU generation!
 */  


-- 
         To unsubscribe: mail video4linux-list-request@redhat.com with 
                       "unsubscribe" as the Subject.

List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: No DVD support from Sigma?
From:       William Burrow <aa126 () fan ! nb ! ca>
Date:       1999-05-12 20:49:07

On Wed, May 12, 1999 at 10:16:14PM +0300, Määttänen Tuomas wrote:
> it seems there will be no support from Sigma Designs for
> the current Hollywood+ decoder card. 
...
> From: Jouni Hiltunen <jouni.hiltunen@elinar.fi>
> Subject: Re: No linux support for H+
> 
> >                In response to previous requests for the release of
> > specifications to write Linux drivers here is what our QA engineer
> > manager has to say:
> >                        "We cannot release programming specifications
> > for Linux development since the decoding of the CSS encrypted movies are
> > ferociously protected by the Movie Entertainment Industry.
> > Unfortunately, this kind of info cannot be released freely."
> 
> Has there been any progress on other fronts than Sigma?

Wasn't this hashed out thoroughly a month or two ago?  The industry won't
release the encryption specs freely because doing so would likely defeat
the purpose of the encryption in the first place.  

What can only be worse is that, for example, the US has outlawed (using?)
any method for defeating encryption intended to prevent piracy.  (Not sure
if this bill has passed or not, it was just a small news item up here.)

Or did I miss something?

-- 
William Burrow, VE9WIL -- New Brunswick, Canada
>Microsoft has bought a multi-billion dollar stake in AT&T.
     Be prepared for the need to hang up your phone and call again
     for no reason.   -- Jim Rosenburg


-- 
         To unsubscribe: mail video4linux-list-request@redhat.com with 
                       "unsubscribe" as the Subject.

List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: No DVD support from Sigma?
From:       sharkey () ale ! physics ! sunysb ! edu
Date:       1999-05-12 23:24:45

> Wasn't this hashed out thoroughly a month or two ago?  The industry won=
't
> release the encryption specs freely because doing so would likely defea=
t
> the purpose of the encryption in the first place.

I think it's pretty stupid of them to rely on security via obscurity.
Just a matter of time....
  =

> What can only be worse is that, for example, the US has outlawed (using=
?)
> any method for defeating encryption intended to prevent piracy.  (Not s=
ure
> if this bill has passed or not, it was just a small news item up here.)=


Yes, and no.  It is illegal to defeat encryption intended to prevent pira=
cy
for the purpose of piracy, but not for other purposes.  In other words,
if you pirate an unencrypted DVD you are guilty of one crime.  If you
pirate an encrypted DVD, you are guilty of two crimes.  If you break the
encryption for the purpose of creating a personal backup copy (considered=

fair use) or for "system interoperability or compatibility" then you
are guilty of zero crimes.  This is explicitly stated in the bill.

It's still legal to reverse engineer this stuff to write a Linux driver. =
 We
can even publish the results.  We just can't use those results to pirate
disks.  It's a fair law.

Eric


-- 
         To unsubscribe: mail video4linux-list-request@redhat.com with 
                       "unsubscribe" as the Subject.

List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: No DVD support from Sigma?
From:       "D. Huseby" <huseby () u ! washington ! edu>
Date:       1999-05-12 23:57:25

> >                        "We cannot release programming specifications
> > for Linux development since the decoding of the CSS encrypted movies are
> > ferociously protected by the Movie Entertainment Industry.
> > Unfortunately, this kind of info cannot be released freely."

THIS IS COMPLETE BULLSHIT!!!  When writing a V4L(2) DVD driver all we do
as a programmer is provide a way for the drive to talk to the decoder
card...the actually decoding of the keys (from what the spec says) is
actually done in the decoder hardware by firmware....NOT BY DRIVER
CODE!!!  Like I said, this is bullshit to say that supporting a driver
writer is releasing the Movie people's most protected secrets.  So what
the driver does is this:
1) passes asymmetricly encrympted (public key) messages between the drive
and the decoder card.  The message contains the symmectric (DES) session
key for decoding the movie, BUT it is encrypted...there would be no way
for a programmer to "steal" decoding keys, unless they wanted to mount a
Distributed.net type attack, but that would be a waste of time (see
Applied Cryptography by Bruce Schneier for more info on crypto).
2) the decoder card uses keys in their firmware to decrypt the assymectric
message to recover the symmetric session key.  This is also how area codes
are enforced...DVD discs require different assymetric keys depending on
where they are to be viewed.
3) the decoder card sets up the DMA transfer for decoded video to the
video card...or in somecases, they ARE the video card.  So the driver
writer does the mediating for the DMA transfer and then lets the card do
it's thing.  At no point is raw video data available to the driver writer,
because the decoded video is all transfered through DMA, or in the case of
the decoder card being the video card, there actually isn't any video data
leaving the decoder card.

So, as you can see, the claim that releasing only the data needed to write
a driver for the decoder cards would go against the Movie guys thing, is
totally untrue.  I just think that they are afraid that the Movie guys
would strong arm them and sue them, even if they were right...Kinda like
the RIAA, and Microshaft's monopolistic techniques.  Sue them even if they
are right because we can afford the legal fees and they can't, so they
will stop doing whatever they are doing, just to stay out of court.
	Dave


-- 
         To unsubscribe: mail video4linux-list-request@redhat.com with 
                       "unsubscribe" as the Subject.

List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: No DVD support from Sigma?
From:       sharkey () ale ! physics ! sunysb ! edu
Date:       1999-05-13 1:22:46

> > >                        "We cannot release programming specifications
> > > for Linux development since the decoding of the CSS encrypted movies are
> > > ferociously protected by the Movie Entertainment Industry.
> > > Unfortunately, this kind of info cannot be released freely."
> 
> THIS IS COMPLETE BULLSHIT!!!  When writing a V4L(2) DVD driver all we do
> as a programmer is provide a way for the drive to talk to the decoder
> card...

Yes and no.  You are correct, in the sense that most hardware works this
way, but there are a few models which actually do the decryption in software.
It makes the hardware cheaper.  (Not unlike the various "winmodem" models
which implement much of the standard modem hardware in software.)

There was a thread on this about a month ago.  Check the archive of this
list starting April 8, 1999 with the subject "RealMagic Hollywood support?".
It includes comments from Alan Cox on ways to get around this problem.

Eric


-- 
         To unsubscribe: mail video4linux-list-request@redhat.com with 
                       "unsubscribe" as the Subject.

List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: No DVD support from Sigma?
From:       andrewtv () usa ! net (Andrew T !  Veliath)
Date:       1999-05-13 12:12:09

 .........----------------==================----
..--==-  Wed, 12 May 1999 16:57:25 -0700 (PDT),
..--==-  D Huseby (DH) discussed:

 )) >                        "We cannot release programming specifications
 )) > for Linux development since the decoding of the CSS encrypted movies are
 )) > ferociously protected by the Movie Entertainment Industry.
 )) > Unfortunately, this kind of info cannot be released freely."

 DH)  So, as you can see, the claim that releasing only the data needed to write
 DH)  a driver for the decoder cards would go against the Movie guys thing, is
 DH)  totally untrue.  I just think that they are afraid that the Movie guys
 DH)  would strong arm them and sue them, even if they were right...Kinda like
 DH)  the RIAA, and Microshaft's monopolistic techniques.  Sue them even if they
 DH)  are right because we can afford the legal fees and they can't, so they
 DH)  will stop doing whatever they are doing, just to stay out of court.
 DH)  Dave

It does appear that the Hollywood Plus Card does CSS decryption in
software, much like a software decoder.

-- 
Andrew  	"Hello," he lied. -- Don Carpenter, quoting a
		Hollywood agent


-- 
         To unsubscribe: mail video4linux-list-request@redhat.com with 
                       "unsubscribe" as the Subject.

List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: No DVD support from Sigma?
From:       "D. Huseby" <huseby () u ! washington ! edu>
Date:       1999-05-13 17:14:42

On 13 May 1999, Andrew T. Veliath wrote:

>  .........----------------==================----
> ..--==-  Wed, 12 May 1999 16:57:25 -0700 (PDT),
> ..--==-  D Huseby (DH) discussed:
> 
>  )) >                        "We cannot release programming specifications
>  )) > for Linux development since the decoding of the CSS encrypted movies are
>  )) > ferociously protected by the Movie Entertainment Industry.
>  )) > Unfortunately, this kind of info cannot be released freely."
> 
>  DH)  So, as you can see, the claim that releasing only the data needed to write
>  DH)  a driver for the decoder cards would go against the Movie guys thing, is
>  DH)  totally untrue.  I just think that they are afraid that the Movie guys
>  DH)  would strong arm them and sue them, even if they were right...Kinda like
>  DH)  the RIAA, and Microshaft's monopolistic techniques.  Sue them even if they
>  DH)  are right because we can afford the legal fees and they can't, so they
>  DH)  will stop doing whatever they are doing, just to stay out of court.
>  DH)  Dave
> 
> It does appear that the Hollywood Plus Card does CSS decryption in
> software, much like a software decoder.

Oh, well then I suggest a boycott of their products.  Go with Creative
Labs DXR2/3 hardware or anybody else that does hardware CSS decryption.
They've even set up a page for Linux support. They are interested in
making Linux drivers for their products.  Another thing would be to get
the CSS DVD spec somehow and release an opensource toolkit, I know that is
the movie guys worst nightmare but I think it would be possible to either
reverse engineer it or get it from somewhere.
	Dave Huseby


-- 
         To unsubscribe: mail video4linux-list-request@redhat.com with 
                       "unsubscribe" as the Subject.

List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: No DVD support from Sigma?
From:       Nathan < laredo () gnu ! org>
Date:       1999-05-13 19:31:18

> THIS IS COMPLETE BULLSHIT!!!  When writing a V4L(2) DVD driver all we do
> as a programmer is provide a way for the drive to talk to the decoder
> card...the actually decoding of the keys (from what the spec says) is
> actually done in the decoder hardware by firmware....NOT BY DRIVER
> CODE!!!  Like I said, this is bullshit to say that supporting a driver
> writer is releasing the Movie people's most protected secrets.  So what
> the driver does is this:

I should point out that not all dvd decoder boards do CSS in hardware.
Many rely on the built-in features of win98 DirectShow support for CSS
decoding in software.

Secondly, despite everything being encrypted, you once the drive
authentication process is complete, you have complete access to the
entire contents of the DVD, albeit encrypted.   Since it's only a 40-
bit key, it's easily subject to a brute force attack.

Be patient, we will have a binary-only dvd player in linux soon
enough.  As for open source, it will be tricky to crack CSS and 
publish the references and then from the published references to
then make an opensource implementation -- But it is possible, and
I won't deny that someone is working towards that end.

-- Nathan Laredo
laredo@gnu.org


-- 
         To unsubscribe: mail video4linux-list-request@redhat.com with 
                       "unsubscribe" as the Subject.

List:       linux-video
Subject:    Re: No DVD support from Sigma?
From:       Alan Cox <alan () cymru ! net>
Date:       1999-05-13 20:48:29

> Oh, well then I suggest a boycott of their products.  Go with Creative
> Labs DXR2/3 hardware or anybody else that does hardware CSS decryption.

Creative dont do anything and dont care. Eveyrthing so far on the 
Creative DVD boards was reverse engineered.

> They've even set up a page for Linux support. They are interested in
> making Linux drivers for their products.  Another thing would be to get

Binary only, closed, some products, intel only.

The Hollywood people are actually willing to say "look this is the problem
this is why we cant help right now"

> the CSS DVD spec somehow and release an opensource toolkit, I know that is
> the movie guys worst nightmare but I think it would be possible to either
> reverse engineer it or get it from somewhere.

Thanks for volunteering. Let us know when you have it working. You can
also spend $10K on the rights and then release a binary only DVD tool
for Linux under the same terms and rules as eveyrone else is bound.


-- 
         To unsubscribe: mail video4linux-list-request@redhat.com with 
                       "unsubscribe" as the Subject.