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From: Sri Ramkrishna <sri@aracnet.com>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Miguel horribly misquoted?
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Out of curiosity, I was reading an article from LinuxToday regarding
GNOME, and apparently Miguel was quoted with what seems to be something
out of character for Miguel. (I've never seem him be deragatory to
anybody on this list)
What was exactly said in the interview anyways? The press loves to start
friction/controversy in order to generate more press. (witness the
positioning of Linux against Windows, Linux was never really intended to
compete with Windows, people just wanted Unix at home and not have to play
excessive licensing fees)
sri
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Sri Ramkrishna /|\ Unix is very user friendly, its just very picky
email: sri@aracnet.com -|- on who it is friendly to. -- Unknown?
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From dhs@erinet.com
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Subject: Re: Miguel horribly misquoted?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:50:26 -0400
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Here's a quote from the article...maybe this is it:
"I don't think KDE has a future at this point, it's not completely free yet
and it's bound to a single programming language in Unix. Gnome from the very
beginning has been accessible through any language. We are providing the GUI
for all the languages and programmers can choose the language they like the
most," says Miguel.
Hall
----- Original Message -----
From: Sri Ramkrishna <sri@aracnet.com>
To: <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 1:04 PM
Subject: Miguel horribly misquoted?
>
> Out of curiosity, I was reading an article from LinuxToday regarding
> GNOME, and apparently Miguel was quoted with what seems to be something
> out of character for Miguel. (I've never seem him be deragatory to
> anybody on this list)
>
> What was exactly said in the interview anyways? The press loves to start
> friction/controversy in order to generate more press. (witness the
> positioning of Linux against Windows, Linux was never really intended to
> compete with Windows, people just wanted Unix at home and not have to play
> excessive licensing fees)
>
> sri
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Sri Ramkrishna /|\ Unix is very user friendly, its just very picky
> email: sri@aracnet.com -|- on who it is friendly to. -- Unknown?
> phone: 503-356-1078 \|/
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> |
>
>
>
>
> --
> FAQ: Frequently-Asked Questions at http://www.gnome.org/gnomefaq
> To unsubscribe: mail gnome-list-request@gnome.org with
> "unsubscribe" as the Subject.
>
>
From sri@aracnet.com
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sri Ramkrishna <sri@aracnet.com>
To: Hall <dhs@erinet.com>
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Miguel horribly misquoted?
In-Reply-To: <004701bea220$144434a0$356510ac@flowserve.com>
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> Here's a quote from the article...maybe this is it:
>
> "I don't think KDE has a future at this point, it's not completely free yet
This is of course pure conjecture. It's not for us to say whether KDE has
a future or not. Thats up to the people who use it. It was ill advised
to use these choice of words. KDE users will get the impression that
GNOME is out to get them and will either further ingrain themselves to KDE
out of pure stubborness or will nitpick GNOME to death.
However, my main point is whether this is truly what was said or was it
misquoted or said under the wrong context. The press likes nothing better
than feuds because it generates press. Something to crow about. Are KDE
and GNOME really in competition? If yes, why? If no, then don't allow
the press to position GNOME in competition with KDE.
Now, I think what Miguel was saying was that technically KDE might be
shooting itself in the foot because it used a toolkit that isn't truly
owned by the community and it's direction is not truly owned by the
community. It also dedicated itself to a single language and is limited
by that language. Fine. But once again it's not for GNOME to say that
KDE is a dead end. As long as users don't mind these limitations, who
cares? If GNOME truly is technically better than that will show as GNOME
matures.
(Miguel doesn't normally participate in these kind of threads, but it
would be nice to clarify what exactly made him say that)
sri
From stu30241@kde.org
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Message-ID: <3743BE0A.5770BA20@kde.org>
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:47:22 +0200
From: Torsten Rahn <torsten@kde.org>
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> Out of curiosity, I was reading an article from LinuxToday regarding
> GNOME, and apparently Miguel was quoted with what seems to be something
> out of character for Miguel. (I've never seem him be deragatory to
> anybody on this list)
Apparently Miguel is misquoted every time he talks about Gnome in the
press. Ridiculous! He apparently doesnīt forget to bash KDE everytime
he gets some press-attention. KDE-developers are interested in working
together with the GNOME-team. But Miguel makes these things *very*
difficult - many people on kde-devel are already sick and very
disgusted by several FUD that Miguel has spread.
Competition between both projects may be one thing, making jokes about
the other project another but it is absolutely inappropriate that the
GNOME project coordinator Miguel de Icaza makes comments like this
when he gets the attention of the press!
I donīt remember that any KDE-official has ever made comments like this
in the press. Never!
Please, Miguel, donīt continue to spread this kind of disinformation
when you go public. Donīt mislead the people. You donīt do the
GNOME-people/the Linux community a favour if you continue like this,
believe me!
One year ago I really thought about joining the GNOME-developers. But
one reason for not doing so was this lack of fair-play ...
> > Here's a quote from the article...maybe this is it:
> >
> > "I don't think KDE has a future at this point, it's not completely free yet
>
> This is of course pure conjecture. It's not for us to say whether KDE has
> a future or not. Thats up to the people who use it. It was ill advised
Yes, please, someone has to tell him!
BTW: the GNOME-people have created a very *beautiful* desktop. I really
admire this part of your work. But there are other things that I really
dislike ...
Aaah and one thing Miguel: You have already promised Martin not to do
things like this anymore -- so instead of any reply from you it would
be much more promising if you would *do* it better next time!
Regards,
Torsten,
kde-artist-team
--
KDE -- Color Outside The Lines
From daniell@earthlink.net
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From: Daniel Lyddy <daniell@cs.berkeley.edu>
Organization: UC-Berkeley ViVE Lab
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<soapbox>
If you believe in Open Source, then you must also believe in Open
Discussion. You can't expect code to be free and tongues to be tied;
the two concepts are at complete odds with each other. Let Miguel speak
his mind openly. Censorship should not be part of the Open Source
Movement. It may be true that when Bill Gates speaks, he speaks for the
entire population of Redmond. The same logic does not apply to an Open
Source project like GNOME, and anyone who believes Miguel speaks for all
of us just isn't clear on the concept.
<\soapbox>
Dan
P.S. Can we now return to issues of configuring, installing, and using
GNOME?
--
Daniel Lyddy daniell@cs.berkeley.edu
UC Berkeley Vision and Virtual Environments Lab
549 Soda Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720
tel: +1 (510) 642-4979
url: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daniell
From sri@aracnet.com
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:27:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sri Ramkrishna <sri@aracnet.com>
To: Daniel Lyddy <daniell@cs.berkeley.edu>
cc: GNOME Users <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: Miguel's quotes
In-Reply-To: <37445704.61091584@cs.berkeley.edu>
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> If you believe in Open Source, then you must also believe in Open
> Discussion. You can't expect code to be free and tongues to be tied;
> the two concepts are at complete odds with each other. Let Miguel speak
> his mind openly. Censorship should not be part of the Open Source
> Movement. It may be true that when Bill Gates speaks, he speaks for the
I didn't start this thread to censor anyone. No where in my message have
I said "censor" or even mean to censor. I merely said that the quote was
ill-advised. If you want to work with KDE in the future for whatever
project these things will bite us in the ass.
Second, the press loves controversy and the GNOME vs KDE is great press.
That should be prevented.
I wanted to see if Miguel really said that or was it taken out of context.
I'd liked to know what was really said thats all. It's the search for the
truth.
In any case, there's no point in discussing this further. We might as
well let this thread die.
sri
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Sri Ramkrishna /|\ Unix is very user friendly, its just very picky
email: sri@aracnet.com -|- on who it is friendly to. -- Unknown?
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|
From larry@marso.com
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From: larry@marso.com
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: miguel on balance
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At least Miguel expressed a consistent point of view in the bbc interview.
He believes compatibility across programming languages is the key to
becoming a universal gui platform. He lists the large number of languages
supported by gnome, against the one (soon two) he says KDE supports.
He makes it very clear that *this* is his criteria, and that polish and
even maturity, would be secondary for him. This is set up as the context
for his comment on KDE, there is no doubt about it.
Given this perspective, if he has the facts right, his comment on KDE's
"future" shouldn't surprise anyone -- and certainly shouldn't offend
anyone with different criteria.
--
-lsm
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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To: Sri Ramkrishna <sri@aracnet.com>
Cc: Daniel Lyddy <daniell@cs.berkeley.edu>, GNOME Users <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: Miguel's quotes
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990520122038.17075A-100000@shell2.aracnet.com>
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Date: 25 May 1999 10:49:46 -0500
In-Reply-To: Sri Ramkrishna's message of "Thu, 20 May 1999 12:27:35 -0700 (PDT)"
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> Second, the press loves controversy and the GNOME vs KDE is great press.
> That should be prevented.
very good point.
I am making a mental note to be more careful on these controversial
issues in any future interviews.
> I wanted to see if Miguel really said that or was it taken out of context.
> I'd liked to know what was really said thats all. It's the search for the
> truth.
I do not know to which quote you are refering to. Probably the one
about KDE's future from my point of view?
Someone already posted a very nice explanation on my commntes
(subject: "miguel on balance" or something similar). I could have not
said it better.
Best wishes,
Miguel.
--
miguel@gnu.org
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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To: Sri Ramkrishna <sri@aracnet.com>
Cc: Hall <dhs@erinet.com>, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Miguel horribly misquoted?
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Date: 25 May 1999 10:55:07 -0500
In-Reply-To: Sri Ramkrishna's message of "Wed, 19 May 1999 11:45:49 -0700 (PDT)"
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> This is of course pure conjecture. It's not for us to say whether KDE has
> a future or not.
Very good point.
Thing is: the question was something like "what do you think about
kde" or something. I forget exactly what. And that is how I felt at
that point.
I now have a nice, boring, non-controversial, canned answer for that.
I sadly did not study for public relations. I am a math drop-out. So
my excuse for the day is: I am learning the hard way to discuss things
with myself mentally before opening my big mouth :-).
I am just like homer simpson. A bit idiotic.
> Fine. But once again it's not for GNOME to say that
> KDE is a dead end.
Exactly.
But I was asked to state my opinion on this. So, I gave my opinion.
Last I checked, I have not achieved god status yet, so anything I say,
should be regarded as my opinion and not some inmutable nature law.
I was not making a public statement for the GNOME project, nor any
sort of public announcement. It was just my reply to a question.
> (Miguel doesn't normally participate in these kind of threads, but it
> would be nice to clarify what exactly made him say that)
I have just been away for a long time from Mexico. I am now back
home, and slowly reading my mail backwards.
Best wishes,
Miguel.
--
miguel@gnu.org
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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Subject: Re: Miguel horribly misquoted?
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Date: 25 May 1999 11:02:02 -0500
In-Reply-To: Torsten Rahn's message of "Thu, 20 May 1999 09:47:22 +0200"
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> Apparently Miguel is misquoted every time he talks about Gnome in the
> press. Ridiculous! He apparently doesnīt forget to bash KDE everytime
> he gets some press-attention.
False. I usually do not mention KDE at all to reporters.
In this case, it was a straight question. Go see the interview.
> KDE-developers are interested in working together with the
> GNOME-team.
We are working with them.
> But Miguel makes these things *very*
"*very* difficult"? I do not see how I would do it. Am I stopping
all the mail between the teams? Am I censoring anyone?
> difficult - many people on kde-devel are already sick and very
> disgusted by several FUD that Miguel has spread.
False.
So far the history of "FUD" according to people is:
1. Reporter implied KDE was German. Not my fault, go tell
SuSE to use better advertisement.
2. The no future thing. It caught me off-guard.
That is all. And they have nothing else.
So, give me a break.
> Competition between both projects may be one thing, making jokes about
> the other project another but it is absolutely inappropriate that the
> GNOME project coordinator Miguel de Icaza makes comments like this
> when he gets the attention of the press!
I am not a computer. Sorry to dissapoint you.
And yes, I have made many mistakes in my life. Starting with the
salted chocolate to my teacher in first grade, and continuing with the
pink rabit. But those are details you should not know.
> One year ago I really thought about joining the GNOME-developers. But
> one reason for not doing so was this lack of fair-play ...
this "lack of fair-play"? Give me *proof of this*, until then, I
consider this spreading miss-information.
> Aaah and one thing Miguel: You have already promised Martin not to do
> things like this anymore -- so instead of any reply from you it would
> be much more promising if you would *do* it better next time!
Which Martin? I forget.
> kde-artist-team
oh, now I understand.
Miguel.
--
miguel@gnu.org