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From charonstyx@netscape.net 1 Sep 99 15:37:43 EST
Date: 1 Sep 99 15:37:43 EST
From: Julian charonstyx@netscape.net
Subject: [LinuxDVD] Current Progress?

Whats the progress report on linuxDVD?
I've read theres likely to be a decoder card available with drivers for l=
inux
later this year (maybe?). how will that work? is there developement on a
player for this card? =

But what about people that already have a decoder card like the Hollywood=
+ or
no decoder card at all? =

What players/drivers are being developed? I realise theres developement o=
n a
CSS disc unlocking code and theres some legalities involved with that. Bu=
t in
any event..once its out there its OUT THERE i guess. all we need then is =
a
player right?
regards

Jules.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

From pvolcko@concentric.net Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:55:31 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:55:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: pvolcko@concentric.net pvolcko@concentric.net
Subject: [LinuxDVD] Current Progress?

> Whats the progress report on linuxDVD?

LinuxDVD isn't a unified effort of any kind. This list is simply a
communications channel for all groups and people involved in different
projects.

> I've read theres likely to be a decoder card available with drivers for linux
> later this year (maybe?). how will that work? is there developement on a
> player for this card? 

This is the card from Convergence (see http://linuxtv.org), most likely.
I'm not sure if the vendors will be supplying a player for it or not, but
the project I'm involved with, LSDVD, intends to support the Convergence
card as well as the upcoming card/chipset from Sigma Designs. The LSDVD
project is solely a player application, which might branch out into
software decoding codecs if something isn't already out there and legal
for inclusion or distribution with a player application.

> But what about people that already have a decoder card like the Hollywood+ or
> no decoder card at all? 

The Creative Labs DXR2, which uses a C-Cube chipset, could have linux
drivers release for it. Sigma has said in the past that it will not be
releasing drivers for the Hollywood+ (or the Create Labs DXR3). Their
reasons have been weak in most peoples' eyes, I think. I admit that
sometimes I wonder what their logic in this is. But I think it boils down
to a business decision to support the upcoming card(s) first and then
maybe work on older products. So don't throw out the old decoder cards
when you buy a new one (which is the goal in all of this for the
companies, remember) they may yet be supported and need people to help in
beta testing drivers, etc.

> What players/drivers are being developed? I realise theres developement on a
> CSS disc unlocking code and theres some legalities involved with that. But in
> any event..once its out there its OUT THERE i guess. all we need then is a
> player right?

The unlocking code is out there and appears to work (or at least be on the
right track). There is now the issue of decrypting data read off the
disc. The algorithms for this are unknown, but there are intentions to do
some more reverse engineering of current windows players in order to get
the code that performs the decryption, similar to how the unlocking code
was "discovered". 

The player for DVD is another matter and not so easily reverse engineered,
since it makes up a much larger part of the windows players functionally
speaking. As I said, LSDVD is working on a player application which we
hope to be able to release publicly in some form. We are working from
DVD-Video specs though, not reverse engineering. We hope to be able to
freely distribute a hardware decoding based player. A software
decoding based player is looking like it will involve royalties and
possibly some significant licensing fees for AC-3. That being the case
the software decoding version will likely involve some money for
purchasing it. 

To your point of once the CSS code is out there it's out there... yes, but
a player still needs to be made and the code for that (assuming
non-reverse engineered) would not be publishable, only a binary
executable. However, there could be a DVD-Video API created that woudl be
distributed in binary form and would allow people to create players' user
interfaces, work with different decoding back ends, and could be included
into a broader scope multimedia playback program/framework. Likewise a
Decoder API could be made to allow programmers to easily use both hardware
and software decoding mechanisms in their programs. The Decoder API is
being worked on. The DVD-Video API's definition is farily simple.
http://linuxtv.org has a header file with the API functions defined in it.
There would also need to be a backend interface (to interface with
decoding logic) assuming that the DVD-Video API implementation isn't
coupled to the decoder control logic. 

Paul Volcko
LSDVD

From mpav@purdue.edu Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:10:08 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:10:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Matthew R. Pavlovich mpav@purdue.edu
Subject: [LinuxDVD] Current Progress?

> drivers release for it. Sigma has said in the past that it will not be
> releasing drivers for the Hollywood+ (or the Create Labs DXR3). Their
> reasons have been weak in most peoples' eyes, I think. I admit that

Sigma Designs is working on a Linux version of their player for the
Hollywood+. It will be released under a commercail license (of course).

Matt

From pvolcko@concentric.net Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:18:33 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:18:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: pvolcko@concentric.net pvolcko@concentric.net
Subject: [LinuxDVD] Current Progress?

Where did you get this information? From what I've seen of their public
announcments this is not their current strategy. Even in my discussions
with Michael Ignaszewski and Marshall Goldberg I haven't heard them say
they were developing a linux player for any product. I've only heard that
they were going to be releasing a driver and perhaps a player for their
upcoming chipset and subsequent card based on that chipset (EM8400). They
are considering the possibilities involved with open sourcing that driver
and parts of the player (if they decide to develop/release it). 

Paul Volcko
LSDVD

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Matthew R. Pavlovich wrote:

> > drivers release for it. Sigma has said in the past that it will not be
> > releasing drivers for the Hollywood+ (or the Create Labs DXR3). Their
> > reasons have been weak in most peoples' eyes, I think. I admit that
> 
> Sigma Designs is working on a Linux version of their player for the
> Hollywood+. It will be released under a commercail license (of course).
> 
> Matt
> 
> 

From raubitsj@writeme.com Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:19:10 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:19:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Raubitschek raubitsj@writeme.com
Subject: [LinuxDVD] Current Progress? -- Using WINE

> > What players/drivers are being developed? I realise theres developement on a
> > CSS disc unlocking code and theres some legalities involved with that. But in
> > any event..once its out there its OUT THERE i guess. all we need then is a
> > player right?
> 
> The unlocking code is out there and appears to work (or at least be on the
> right track). There is now the issue of decrypting data read off the
> disc. The algorithms for this are unknown, but there are intentions to do
> some more reverse engineering of current windows players in order to get
> the code that performs the decryption, similar to how the unlocking code
> was "discovered". 

I dont know if anyone else has tried this, but couple months ago I started
working on getting a software DVD player to run under WINE. I have made
little progress, but I can see this as a good chance to get a usable
player as soon as possible. Ofcourse i would always rather having a
complete open source solution but this might help the reverse engineering
efforts also.

I will try to get my wine patches incorporated as soon as i get a chance
(which probably wont be till next month sometime). If anyone else has
tried getting a software dvd player working under linux, please contact
me. The player i am using is CyberLink PowerDVD. most of the work i have
done so far deals with tricking powerDVD to set up the video correctly by
emulating BIOS calls which scan PCI information. I expect that once this
is done, using the CSS unlocking code will allow full playback
functionality (im keeping my fingers crossed :)


-jeff

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Raubitschek 
Computer Engineer
raubitsj@writeme.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pvolcko@concentric.net Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:35:22 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:35:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: pvolcko@concentric.net pvolcko@concentric.net
Subject: [LinuxDVD] Current Progress? -- Using WINE

> I dont know if anyone else has tried this, but couple months ago I started
> working on getting a software DVD player to run under WINE. I have made
> little progress, but I can see this as a good chance to get a usable
> player as soon as possible. Ofcourse i would always rather having a
> complete open source solution but this might help the reverse engineering
> efforts also.
> 
> I will try to get my wine patches incorporated as soon as i get a chance
> (which probably wont be till next month sometime). If anyone else has
> tried getting a software dvd player working under linux, please contact
> me. The player i am using is CyberLink PowerDVD. most of the work i have
> done so far deals with tricking powerDVD to set up the video correctly by
> emulating BIOS calls which scan PCI information. I expect that once this
> is done, using the CSS unlocking code will allow full playback
> functionality (im keeping my fingers crossed :)

Back when a couple articles appeared on Slashdot about DVD under linux
there were some posts about getting a current player to work in Wine. 

As far as your efforts, you may consider trying to get unencrypted DVD
playback working first. This will let you concentrate on the video and
sound related issues first. Once thats working move on to encrypted DVd
playback. I'm not sure how you would get it to use the available CSS
unlocking code to play a DVD (when decryption is still needed). What is
your plan for that? Not to mention Wine would (I would think) need to
support Direct X 6.0 or else you'd have to hack a DirectX 6.0
implementation together for it. Seems like a lot of effort that could
just as easily be directed at working on the livid matrox code.

Paul Volcko
LSDVD

From raubitsj@writeme.com Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:00:21 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:00:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Raubitschek raubitsj@writeme.com
Subject: [LinuxDVD] Current Progress? -- Using WINE

> As far as your efforts, you may consider trying to get unencrypted DVD
> playback working first. This will let you concentrate on the video and
> sound related issues first.

a very good idea, i havent gotten my hands on an unencrypted DVD yet. Any
suggestions? I have heard several people working on various projects
having problems and it is difficult to recreate some of these problems
when everyone is using a different disc. Is there a particular
unencrypted disc available by mail order that lots of developers could all
get?

> support Direct X 6.0 or else you'd have to hack a DirectX 6.0
> implementation together for it. Seems like a lot of effort that could
> just as easily be directed at working on the livid matrox code.
so far i have not spent much time, just some quick hacking running wine,
finding where it crashes, coding some work around code, then running
again. My intent for getting this to work was to make some of the reverse
engineering easier. I do not want to run a windoze machine thus i think of
wine as a good tool to get some of the information i need. If it starts
to look like too much effort is involved, i will definately stop it and
see how i can help the livid efforts.


-jeff

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Raubitschek 
Computer Engineer
raubitsj@writeme.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pvolcko@concentric.net Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:35:31 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:35:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: pvolcko@concentric.net pvolcko@concentric.net
Subject: [LinuxDVD] Current Progress? -- Using WINE

> a very good idea, i havent gotten my hands on an unencrypted DVD yet. Any
> suggestions? I have heard several people working on various projects
> having problems and it is difficult to recreate some of these problems
> when everyone is using a different disc. Is there a particular
> unencrypted disc available by mail order that lots of developers could all
> get?

the only thing with the common disc idea is that many efforts, especially
reverse engineering ones, will require a variety of discs. For example
the IFO file structure effort will need to look at a lot of different IFO
files in order to see the similarities and differences between IFO files
on given discs. This is what will allow them to RE the format without
resorting to potentially illegal code RE'ing. The same kind of goes for
projects like smpeg, where people using different VOB files is the only
way to discover many of the problems.

A common set of discs might be a way to go. If "complicated" discs are
chosen the need to have that many in the common set is reduced. For
instance Contact and Tomorrow Never Dies (SE) are somewhat complicated
discs in that they utilize the title/chaptering system heavily and also
provide angle support, multi language (audio and subtitle) and complicated
menuing systems. On the other hand, The Siege is a simple disc that
doesn't have much on it besides the movie a title menu or two and thats
it. 

Regional differences alsoo have to be taken into account. Or perhaps they
could be utilized for enhanced testing ability of the set.

It's a good idea, the type of testing and use is important to consider
though.

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