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From arromdee@rahul.net Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:08:57 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:08:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Ken Arromdee arromdee@rahul.net
Subject: [Livid-dev] VCD player?

Hoping not to be too off-topic here, but since people are mentioning VCDs
anyway, does anyone know where I can get a good free Linux VCD player?
(MpegTV is not free except for the command-line version.)  Replies by private
email, please, unless it becomes relevant to the list....

From mpav@purdue.edu Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:44:21 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:44:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Matthew R. Pavlovich mpav@purdue.edu
Subject: [Livid-dev] VCD player?

> (MpegTV is not free except for the command-line version.)  Replies by private
> email, please, unless it becomes relevant to the list....
> 

By all means it seems relevant.  The focus of the project has been dvd,
but there are a lot of other things being worked on as well. 

A VCD player for Linuxis definitely something we should work on.  

 Matt 

From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:11:18 +0000 (GMT)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:11:18 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Cox alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk
Subject: [Livid-dev] VCD player?

> By all means it seems relevant.  The focus of the project has been dvd,
> but there are a lot of other things being worked on as well. 
> 
> A VCD player for Linuxis definitely something we should work on.  

The needed mpeg1 codec app (smpeg) is available LGPL from Loki (the games
people) www.lokisoft.com I believe. I've watched hour long movies with it and
except for some sound sync problems its fine

From insomnia@core.binghamton.edu Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:58:33 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:58:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Stea Greene insomnia@core.binghamton.edu
Subject: [Livid-dev] MPEG1 Support (Was: Re: VCD player?)

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Alan Cox wrote:

> The needed mpeg1 codec app (smpeg) is available LGPL from Loki (the games
> people) www.lokisoft.com I believe. I've watched hour long movies with it and
> except for some sound sync problems its fine
> 
	Yeah, I looked into using this for MPEG support for GATOS.  When I
got down to it, SDL was very much integrated everywhere, the display
wasn't modular at all.  I tried getting in touch with the SDL people to
try to add YUV displays to that, but got no response.... I was going to
have to rewrite a lot of it, and that would all be hard-coded for gatos,
which is no good.  Now if it was to be a module for v4l2, that would be
different...
	'sides, it'd decode only.  There's no MPEG ENCODER that I know of
that's [L]GPL that does video and sound.  You know of one?

						--Insomnia (Stea Greene)

From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:45:35 +0000 (GMT)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:45:35 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Cox alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk
Subject: [Livid-dev] MPEG1 Support (Was: Re: VCD player?)

> 	'sides, it'd decode only.  There's no MPEG ENCODER that I know of
> that's [L]GPL that does video and sound.  You know of one?

I know where the pieces to build a hardware powered one are (Broadway card)
but the project doing it seems to have died

From insomnia@core.binghamton.edu Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:40:50 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:40:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Stea Greene insomnia@core.binghamton.edu
Subject: [Livid-dev] MPEG1 Support (Was: Re: VCD player?)

On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Alan Cox wrote:

> I know where the pieces to build a hardware powered one are (Broadway card)
> but the project doing it seems to have died
> 
	I'd really like to see a standard architecture for all this (DVD,
MPEG2, MPEG, etc...).  It sux to have to write the same thing many times.
Doen't v4l2 have some kind of standard design for this kind of stuff?  If
so we really should decide how we want all the modules to work and start
working on them, so we can all use each other's code without the monster
hacks we are all using now.
						--Insomnia (Stea Greene)

From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:08:11 +0000 (GMT)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:08:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Cox alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk
Subject: [Livid-dev] MPEG1 Support (Was: Re: VCD player?)

> 	I'd really like to see a standard architecture for all this (DVD,
> MPEG2, MPEG, etc...).  It sux to have to write the same thing many times.
> Doen't v4l2 have some kind of standard design for this kind of stuff?  If
> so we really should decide how we want all the modules to work and start
> working on them, so we can all use each other's code without the monster
> hacks we are all using now.

The video card hacks like mga_vid are there because XFree 4.0 isnt ready yet.
Those are a solved problem. We have hardware mpeg/mpeg2 output API's now. 
We don't yet have a clear encoder API.

Alan


From insomnia@core.binghamton.edu Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:17:33 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:17:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Stea Greene insomnia@core.binghamton.edu
Subject: [Livid-dev] MPEG1 Support (Was: Re: VCD player?)

On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Alan Cox wrote:

> The video card hacks like mga_vid are there because XFree 4.0 isnt ready yet.
> Those are a solved problem.
> 
	That's what I figured.

> We have hardware mpeg/mpeg2 output API's now.
> 
	What about software?  I assume it'll use the same API, but is
anyone writing it?  ATI seems committed to making sure the support for
their cards sucks (they won't release mpeg specs).

> We don't yet have a clear encoder API.
> 
	Anyone working on this?
						--Insomnia (Stea Greene)

From pvolcko@concentric.net Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:24:10 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:24:10 -0500 (EST)
From: pvolcko@concentric.net pvolcko@concentric.net
Subject: [Livid-dev] MPEG1 Support (Was: Re: VCD player?)

The LSDVD team is going to be working on some framework code to do just
this.  IT will all be open sourced.  There is also the GMF (Gnome Media
Framework) that does much the same thing.  It might be worth just building to
that frameowrk (making necessary changes along the way).  The only thing I
don't really like about it is that it is "tied" to Gnome at some level I
think.  I'd really like to see a window manager agnostic framework instead of
the current duplication between KDE and Gnome.

On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Stea Greene wrote:

> On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Alan Cox wrote:
> 
> > I know where the pieces to build a hardware powered one are (Broadway card)
> > but the project doing it seems to have died
> > 
> 	I'd really like to see a standard architecture for all this (DVD,
> MPEG2, MPEG, etc...).  It sux to have to write the same thing many times.
> Doen't v4l2 have some kind of standard design for this kind of stuff?  If
> so we really should decide how we want all the modules to work and start
> working on them, so we can all use each other's code without the monster
> hacks we are all using now.
> 						--Insomnia (Stea Greene)
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Livid-dev maillist  -  Livid-dev@livid.on.openprojects.net
> http://livid.on.openprojects.net/mailman/listinfo/livid-dev
> 

From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:33:59 +0000 (GMT)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:33:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Cox alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk
Subject: [Livid-dev] MPEG1 Support (Was: Re: VCD player?)

> this.  IT will all be open sourced.  There is also the GMF (Gnome Media
> Framework) that does much the same thing.  It might be worth just building to
> that frameowrk (making necessary changes along the way).  The only thing I
> don't really like about it is that it is "tied" to Gnome at some level I
> think.  I'd really like to see a window manager agnostic framework instead of
> the current duplication between KDE and Gnome.

Gnome never was tied to a specific WM, nowdays KDE isnt either 8)

GMF is really a bit higher level than what lsdvd seems to be talking about.
I don't see a problem there. In fact it probably makes GMF a lot simpler

From pvolcko@concentric.net Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:17:01 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:17:01 -0500 (EST)
From: pvolcko@concentric.net pvolcko@concentric.net
Subject: [Livid-dev] MPEG1 Support (Was: Re: VCD player?)

> > The video card hacks like mga_vid are there because XFree 4.0 isnt ready yet.
> > Those are a solved problem.
> > 
> 	That's what I figured.
> 
> > We have hardware mpeg/mpeg2 output API's now.
> > 
> 	What about software?  I assume it'll use the same API, but is
> anyone writing it?  ATI seems committed to making sure the support for
> their cards sucks (they won't release mpeg specs).

Well, from what I've seen so far the hardware API will not easily apply to a
software decoder.  The hardware level API's I've seenso far are based in
IOCTLs which aren't really applicable to software decoders unless you turn
them into kernel modules or something.  I think there is a definite need for
one more layer of abstraction above the current hardware API's so that they
are not tied to IOCTLs and offer a simplified setup/initialization
interface.  Again, there is work being done on this by LSDVD, but nothing
public yet beyond some simple sketches of the design.  We would welcome any
input or collaberation on this aspect of media playback though.

> > We don't yet have a clear encoder API.
> > 
> 	Anyone working on this?
> 						--Insomnia (Stea Greene)

This I don't know about.  The APIs should be similar to the decoder ones, but
the licensing and legal crap is even more restrictive than with the decoders
for DVD playback (at least in theory).  I'm not going to start talking down
that road though.  

Paul Volcko
LSDVD

From pvolcko@concentric.net Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:28:22 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:28:22 -0500 (EST)
From: pvolcko@concentric.net pvolcko@concentric.net
Subject: [Livid-dev] MPEG1 Support (Was: Re: VCD player?)

> > this.  IT will all be open sourced.  There is also the GMF (Gnome Media
> > Framework) that does much the same thing.  It might be worth just building to
> > that frameowrk (making necessary changes along the way).  The only thing I
> > don't really like about it is that it is "tied" to Gnome at some level I
> > think.  I'd really like to see a window manager agnostic framework instead of
> > the current duplication between KDE and Gnome.
> 
> Gnome never was tied to a specific WM, nowdays KDE isnt either 8)
>
> GMF is really a bit higher level than what lsdvd seems to be talking about.
> I don't see a problem there. In fact it probably makes GMF a lot simpler

It's higher level than the DVD specific player design that Ben posted links to
earlier in the week.  But the final design goal that we have made up is pretty
much right in line with what GMF is trying to do (unless I didn't quite grok
the info in the pdfs I read about the GMF project).   

We'e really wanting to do away with this one player for mp3s, one player for
cd's one player for dvd, and other players for other formats thing... Single
framework utilizing source readers, chainable transform filters, and mutliple
output modules.  All done through either shared libraries or runtime loadable
modules.  MP3s, quicktime, realvideo, mpeg-1 and 2 video, dvd, vcd, dat,
whatever all playable under a single framework.  The player interface should
then be able to rather easily play any media format with the appropriate
filters installed.  Some cool combinations could even be made up, for instance
a mp3 player that has dvd like navigation menus or something for use in a home
stereo environment.  It would be as simple as defining a mp3 media control
module (which just tells the framework control code what decoders, transforms,
and output modules are required and any setup information thats needed for
them, as well as what attributes of playback are user controlled).   

Paul Volcko
LSDVD

From stiletto@mediaone.net Tue, 07 Dec 1999 18:49:32 -0500
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 18:49:32 -0500
From: Ryan Drake stiletto@mediaone.net
Subject: [Livid-dev] Someone clue me in, please!

Alan Cox wrote:
> The video card hacks like mga_vid are there because XFree 4.0 isnt ready yet.
> Those are a solved problem. We have hardware mpeg/mpeg2 output API's now.
> We don't yet have a clear encoder API.

I'm not too familiar with what exaclty the mga_vid device does.  From
what I gather it maps the framebuffer to a /dev/mga_vid, but what else
does it do that mgavideo doesn't?

I've been giving some thought to the future of the Matrox video capture
stuff.  Although I'm not the primary developer of the mgavideo module
anymore, I'd like to think I have some kind of clue what direction that
it should go in, but I am quite un-clued in to what the project
currently needs.

Someone emailed me a while back about implementing a mgavideo-like Xv
extension for XF4.0.  I lost the email before I had a chance to reply
(if you're out there, please write back--I'm interested!).  With XF4.0's
impending arrival, I took some time to glance over the Xv extension
stuff.  It seems nice, but would an Xv-based solution be able to
co-exist with the v4l2-based kernel module?  Would Xv make all of it's
calls into the kernel module?

I don't think you could just drop the kernel module in favor of an
all-Xv system.  For instance, someone with a web-cam or DVD player--but
not running X, may want access to the grabbing hardware.  I doubt Xv can
provide this.

To be honest, I'm not sure what the advantages of Xv even are over the
current system.  Someone please clue me in!

-Ryan

From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:52:43 +0000 (GMT)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:52:43 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Cox alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk
Subject: [Livid-dev] Re: Someone clue me in, please!

> (if you're out there, please write back--I'm interested!).  With XF4.0's
> impending arrival, I took some time to glance over the Xv extension
> stuff.  It seems nice, but would an Xv-based solution be able to
> co-exist with the v4l2-based kernel module?  Would Xv make all of it's
> calls into the kernel module?

Xv uses Video4Linux where appropriate. 

> To be honest, I'm not sure what the advantages of Xv even are over the
> current system.  Someone please clue me in!

Firstly mga_vid has no capture hardware, its just a hack to expose the scaler
which X can do better. Secondly many devices combined with video cards have
to be driver by X as the graphics and capture ops are intimately tied.

Alan

From stiletto@mediaone.net Tue, 07 Dec 1999 19:09:27 -0500
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 19:09:27 -0500
From: Ryan Drake stiletto@mediaone.net
Subject: [Livid-dev] Re: Someone clue me in, please!

Alan Cox wrote:
> 
> > (if you're out there, please write back--I'm interested!).  With XF4.0's
> > impending arrival, I took some time to glance over the Xv extension
> > stuff.  It seems nice, but would an Xv-based solution be able to
> > co-exist with the v4l2-based kernel module?  Would Xv make all of it's
> > calls into the kernel module?
> 
> Xv uses Video4Linux where appropriate.

Does X do all of it's register-level hardware access through kernel
modules?

> > To be honest, I'm not sure what the advantages of Xv even are over the
> > current system.  Someone please clue me in!
> 
> Firstly mga_vid has no capture hardware, its just a hack to expose the scaler
> which X can do better. Secondly many devices combined with video cards have
> to be driver by X as the graphics and capture ops are intimately tied.

Interesting... there may be some duplication of work going on, then,
because mgavideo also exposes the scaler.  Any chance these two projects
could (or even should) be unified?

What about V4L2's future (if any) in the kernel?  I'm concerned that
mgavideo may have to eventually be adapted to V4L1 sometime in the
future.

-Ryan

From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:12:53 +0000 (GMT)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:12:53 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Cox alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk
Subject: [Livid-dev] Re: Someone clue me in, please!

> > Xv uses Video4Linux where appropriate.
> Does X do all of it's register-level hardware access through kernel
> modules?

Almost never. X tries very hard to avoid it.

> Interesting... there may be some duplication of work going on, then,
> because mgavideo also exposes the scaler.  Any chance these two projects
> could (or even should) be unified?

mga_vid is a quick hack that works. It doesnt need merging, or anything else

> What about V4L2's future (if any) in the kernel?  I'm concerned that
> mgavideo may have to eventually be adapted to V4L1 sometime in the
> future.

V4L1 for 2.4 - V4L1 with bits of the V4L2 ideas, and hopefully other nice stuff
post 2.4

From andreas@andreas.org 08 Dec 1999 02:13:39 -0500
Date: 08 Dec 1999 02:13:39 -0500
From: Andreas Bogk andreas@andreas.org
Subject: [Livid-dev] MPEG1 Support (Was: Re: VCD player?)

Stea Greene <insomnia@core.binghamton.edu> writes:

> anyone writing it?  ATI seems committed to making sure the support for
> their cards sucks (they won't release mpeg specs).

We're (convergence integrated media GmbH that is) are in contact with
ATI. Don't hold your breath, but there might be full Linux support for
upcoming ATI products.

Andreas

-- 
"We should be willing to look at the source code we produce not as the
end product of a more interesting process, but as an artifact in its
own right. It should look good stuck up on the wall."
 -- http://www.ftech.net/~honeyg/progstone/progstone.html

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