List: redhat-list
Subject: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
From: "T. Ribbrock" <emgaron () gmx ! net>
Date: 2003-11-04 11:05:47
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39117575,00.htm
"Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
<quote>
Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on
Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for
corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: "I would say
that for the consumer market place, Win dows probably continues to be
the right product line," he said. "I would argue that from the
device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the other traditional
functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it is my view
that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more.
</quote>
Well. I *can* see his point, at least a little bit - but it still
feels strange, this coming from Red Hat.
Anybody else who shares this view?
Cheerio,
Thomas
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Subject: Re: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
From: Michael Schwendt <ms-nospam-0306 () arcor ! de>
Date: 2003-11-04 11:24:22
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:05:47 +0100, T. Ribbrock wrote:
> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39117575,00.htm
>
> "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
>
> <quote>
> Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on
> Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for
> corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: "I would say
> that for the consumer market place, Win dows probably continues to be
> the right product line," he said. "I would argue that from the
> device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the other traditional
> functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it is my view
> that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more.
> </quote>
>
> Well. I *can* see his point, at least a little bit - but it still
> feels strange, this coming from Red Hat.
> Anybody else who shares this view?
Do *you* disagree?
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Subject: Re: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
From: "T. Ribbrock" <emgaron () gmx ! net>
Date: 2003-11-04 12:26:03
On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 12:24:22PM +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > Well. I *can* see his point, at least a little bit - but it still
> > feels strange, this coming from Red Hat.
> > Anybody else who shares this view?
>
> Do *you* disagree?
Yes. I don't think it was very smart. Seing the recent wave of worms
and viruses, I regard it as downright dangerous to recommend Windows
to any home user. I also think it was dangerous to Linux, as it will give
MS more leverage to complete the lock-in they're after. "Linux will be
ready in a few years" - great, but it might be too late then. The third
issue I have is the possible impact of this statement on what PHBs think
in business ("Gee, if I can't even use it at home..."). That shouldn't
happen, but I think we all know it will happen, unfortunately.
Having said that, I can see the point in toning down the expectations
of potential migrants, as a scared off newbie would be bad for Linux'
future as well. Nonetheless, I still think we should get as many home
users to move as possible, 'cause many of them already can. I mean,
what *is* the average home user? When I think of "the average home
user", I think of people like my dad or my wife - e-mail, web, office
apps, maybe the odd dabbling with photos (either digital camera or
scanner) - that's all possible right now. Installation is an issue,
but on the other hand, the people I have in mind never install
anything themselves, anyway - they either buy pre-installed or ask
their son/neighbour/etc.pp. - and that's not in any way specific to
Windows. Another thing that comes up is ease of use. Well, Windows
isn't easy to use - I learned that lesson rather quickly when my
father bought his first PC, with no previous experience.
I've seen the other version as well: My wife is using Linux at home
as well since a couple of years and although her only experience was
Windows, she's very happy with the system. She really surprised me,
when she asked to dump KDE and replace it with the GUI I use: Window
Maker. Just proves that ease of use isn't that easy to pinpoint.
Nonetheless, I wouldn't necessary recommend Linux to that type of user
- I'd rather point in the general direction of Apple's MacIntosh, as
I've seen complete newbies getting the hang of MacOS rather quickly,
when compared to Windows.
That leaves the "spoil sports" :-) : Gamers. It appears that Windows
is a reasonable gaming platform (I wouldn't know). Hence, to that type
of user, Windows might be the only alternative, short of a console.
There isn't much point in denying that.
Further on, I fail to see the point of the statement from a Red Hat
point of view: They're not even offering any product for the typical
home user anymore - they said themselves that they're after the
businesses. Hence, why this statement? It just doesn't feel right.
Cheerio,
Thomas
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Subject: Re: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
From: Michael Schwendt <ms-nospam-0306 () arcor ! de>
Date: 2003-11-04 17:23:33
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:26:03 +0100, T. Ribbrock wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 12:24:22PM +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > > Well. I *can* see his point, at least a little bit - but it still
> > > feels strange, this coming from Red Hat.
> > > Anybody else who shares this view?
> >
> > Do *you* disagree?
>
> Yes. I don't think it was very smart. Seing the recent wave of worms
> and viruses, I regard it as downright dangerous to recommend Windows
> to any home user.
-snip-
IMHO, the key to understanding such comments is to not read between the
lines. Szulik specifically refers to "device-drivers" and "traditional
functionality [...] for that classic consumer purchaser" which refers to
multimedia applications implemented in both hardware and software and
also includes the field of games. This is not about a security
standpoint. This is not a superficial "Windows vs. Linux" comparison.
This is about avoiding false expectations. This is about (re-)defining
the target group of current [Red Hat] Linux. In particular, Linux is
either not ready with regard to multimedia content, e.g. movies, sound,
plugins. Or it confronts the user with low-level details, which can
cause serious frustration among users who have got a false impression of
Linux based on media coverage (=hype).
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Subject: Re: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
From: "T. Ribbrock" <emgaron () gmx ! net>
Date: 2003-11-04 18:01:32
On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 06:23:33PM +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> IMHO, the key to understanding such comments is to not read between the
> lines. Szulik specifically refers to "device-drivers" and "traditional
> functionality [...] for that classic consumer purchaser" which refers to
> multimedia applications implemented in both hardware and software and
> also includes the field of games. This is not about a security
> standpoint.
[...]
But that's not what the average user or PHB will read. Most people
will read: "Linux is not ready, better use Windows" (never mind that
Szulik didn't even mention Apple) and MS will make certain it's
understood that way. I stay with what I said: The way it was put, it
was not a smart comment, either way you look at it - even though I
generally agree with the "no false expectations" point of view. But I
still would not recommend Windows instead, for the reasons mentioned
previously.
Cheerio,
Thomas
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Subject: Re: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
From: Bret Hughes < bhughes () elevating ! com>
Date: 2003-11-04 20:07:38
On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 05:05, T. Ribbrock wrote:
>
> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39117575,00.htm
>
> "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
>
> <quote>
< snip>
> </quote>
>
> Well. I *can* see his point, at least a little bit - but it still
> feels strange, this coming from Red Hat.
> Anybody else who shares this view?
>
Other thread was getting to deep and I guess I am taking a different
view than most of the others anyway.
Quasi random thoughts on the thread.
I think it is absolutely the right thing to do/say. It is called
integrity. In the long term it will help I believe. A company that is
concerned about over promising and under delivering? How can that be a
bad thing? The vast majority of windows home users can barely find the
on off switch, does not even know what a driver is, let alone how to get
one for a piece of hardware, and wants things to simply work. For the
most part MS and AOL provide this exceedingly well. Apple does it even
better, IMNSHO. If it does not work then "I guess this can't be done"
is the response.
Of course I have been in hardware driver hell in windows that was as bad
as anything I have encountered in linux.
What I wish the quote would have said is that until hardware vendors
start supporting linux by either opening up their code or writing
drivers themselves windows will be be the best choice. THings are
improving but obviously there is a ling way to go.
A caveat about security would be nice too.
Novell/SUSE is very interesting especially since SUSE has such a large
european market share. I hope anti-American sentiment does not hurt
them in that market. MicroSoft has so thoroughly pissed off the German
government that there is probably some baggage associated with an
American company buying German SUSE. If played right they can probably
leverage this anti MS sentiment while guiding (changed from driving)
linux deeper into Corporate Europe and then the home.
I believe that focusing on Corporations and education institutions is
the way to go to achieve sustainable growth in the home market. Most
folks are not going to spend too much time learning a different
computing environment than what they use at work or at school, unless
the pain of not doing so is too great, and so heading into this market
first makes a lot of sense to me.
Bret
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Subject: Re: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
From: "Joe Polk" <listuser () javelinux ! com>
Date: 2003-11-04 21:33:31
This was an idiotic thing to say. RH doesn't have any desktop aspirations, so
the idea that they are being honest about their shortcomings doesn't hold.
I'm not debating whether what they said was true, but rather whether it was
the right thing to say. It's like an officer in an army saying "We have
better trained, better armed men in many ways but we're outnumbered. I think
as an all-around army our enemy is superior for now. Yet, with what we have,
applied correctly, we should be able to take them given time." Do you wanna
fight for this guy? I don't think so.
<<JAV>>
---------- Original Message -----------
From: Bret Hughes <bhughes@elevating.com>
To: redhat-list@redhat.com
Sent: 04 Nov 2003 14:07:38 -0600
Subject: Re: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
> On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 05:05, T. Ribbrock wrote:
> >
> > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39117575,00.htm
> >
> > "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
> >
> > <quote>
> < snip>
> > </quote>
> >
> > Well. I *can* see his point, at least a little bit - but it still
> > feels strange, this coming from Red Hat.
> > Anybody else who shares this view?
> >
>
> Other thread was getting to deep and I guess I am taking a different
> view than most of the others anyway.
>
> Quasi random thoughts on the thread.
>
> I think it is absolutely the right thing to do/say. It is called
> integrity. In the long term it will help I believe. A company that
> is concerned about over promising and under delivering? How can
> that be a bad thing? The vast majority of windows home users can
> barely find the on off switch, does not even know what a driver is,
> let alone how to get one for a piece of hardware, and wants things
> to simply work. For the most part MS and AOL provide this
> exceedingly well. Apple does it even better, IMNSHO. If it does
> not work then "I guess this can't be done" is the response.
>
> Of course I have been in hardware driver hell in windows that was as
> bad as anything I have encountered in linux.
>
> What I wish the quote would have said is that until hardware vendors
> start supporting linux by either opening up their code or writing
> drivers themselves windows will be be the best choice. THings are
> improving but obviously there is a ling way to go.
>
> A caveat about security would be nice too.
>
> Novell/SUSE is very interesting especially since SUSE has such a large
> european market share. I hope anti-American sentiment does not hurt
> them in that market. MicroSoft has so thoroughly pissed off the German
> government that there is probably some baggage associated with an
> American company buying German SUSE. If played right they can probably
> leverage this anti MS sentiment while guiding (changed from driving)
> linux deeper into Corporate Europe and then the home.
>
> I believe that focusing on Corporations and education institutions is
> the way to go to achieve sustainable growth in the home market. Most
> folks are not going to spend too much time learning a different
> computing environment than what they use at work or at school, unless
> the pain of not doing so is too great, and so heading into this
> market first makes a lot of sense to me.
>
> Bret
>
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Subject: Re: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
From: Ed Wilts <ewilts () ewilts ! org>
Date: 2003-11-05 0:18:37
On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 05:33:31PM -0400, Joe Polk wrote:
> This was an idiotic thing to say. RH doesn't have any desktop aspirations, so
Actually, they do. They already have RHEL WS and Pro Workstation, and
I know that there are other "aspirations" that they haven't completely
shared with the rest of us.
> I'm not debating whether what they said was true, but rather whether it was
> the right thing to say.
I think we all agree we didn't like the statement. Some didn't like
because of the ammunition it gives Microsoft. Others didn't like
because the truth hurts. Still others didn't like because it didn't lay
out the "aspirations" at the same time. Some people figured that
because Linux works in some applications, it's suitable for everybody
else. I won't get into the argument as to whether or not Linux is ready
for the masses on the desktop because it's too easy for me to win this
one :-)
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Subject: Re: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers"
From: "T. Ribbrock" <emgaron () gmx ! net>
Date: 2003-11-05 0:49:21
On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 06:18:37PM -0600, Ed Wilts wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 05:33:31PM -0400, Joe Polk wrote:
> > This was an idiotic thing to say. RH doesn't have any desktop aspirations, so
>
> Actually, they do. They already have RHEL WS and Pro Workstation, and
> I know that there are other "aspirations" that they haven't completely
> shared with the rest of us.
[...]
In my eyes, those products are in no way aimed at the type of user
this whole text is about, i.e. the average home user. I think that's
one of the reasons it feels strange to hear this from Red Had. It's
almost like backstabbing in the general direction of the likes of
Mandrake, who *are* targetting the desktop, if I want to take this to
the extreme.
Cheerio,
Thomas
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