Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!
mailrus!uwmcsd1!marque!uunet!mcvax!hp4nl!philmds!hulsebos
From: hulse...@philmds.UUCP (Rob Hulsebos)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aux
Subject: STREAMS
Message-ID: <766@philmds.UUCP>
Date: 26 Aug 88 11:45:21 GMT
Organization: Philips I&E DTS Eindhoven
Lines: 20
I do not run A/UX but a look-alike (not a clone) system, made by
the same company that made the A/UX system for Apple.
My system has support for streams, but the documentation is missing.
I do not know anybody running A/UX, so that's why I post this question:
does the A/UX system has either in the online manuals or in the normal
manuals any info about streams ?
If yes, could a copy of the online manuals related to streams perhaps be
mailed to me? If the normal manuals contain text about streams, please
let me know so I can buy a manual set.
Thanks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R.A. Hulsebos ...!mcvax!philmds!hulsebos
Philips I&E Automation Modules phone: +31-40-785723
Building TQ-III-1, room 11
Eindhoven, The Netherlands # cc -O disclaimer.c
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!
rutgers!apple!jk
From: j...@Apple.COM (John Kullmann)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aux
Subject: a/ux look-alikes etc
Message-ID: <16349@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 30 Aug 88 19:10:37 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA
Lines: 22
In some previous postings hulse...@philmds.UUCP (Rob Hulsebos)
makes some incorrect and misleading statements that I would like to clear up.
>Don't blame Apple. Blame their supplier.
>I do not run A/UX but a look-alike (not a clone) system, made by
>the same company that made the A/UX system for Apple.
THAT company did not make A/UX for Apple. We conceived of, designed, and
implemented A/UX. We have no "supplier" for A/UX. We own it, build it,
maintain it, and enhance it. THAT company does not have, sell or intend to
sell, nor is it licensed to sell a "look-alike" of A/UX.
No one else has A/UX for the Mac (or for any other platform).
Please refrain from posting statements that sound like facts unless you
know that they are.
-------------------- -------------------
John Kullmann "All opinions and comments are mine alone"
A/UX Engineering Mgr ..!apple!jk
Voice: 408-973-2939
Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!
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mcdchg!nud!fishpond!fnf
From: f...@fishpond.UUCP (Fred Fish)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aux
Subject: Re: a/ux look-alikes etc
Message-ID: <126@fishpond.UUCP>
Date: 31 Aug 88 04:54:38 GMT
References: <16349@apple.Apple.COM>
Reply-To: f...@fishpond.UUCP (Fred Fish)
Organization: occasionally
Lines: 24
In article <16...@apple.Apple.COM> j...@Apple.COM (John Kullmann) writes:
>In some previous postings hulse...@philmds.UUCP (Rob Hulsebos)
>>I do not run A/UX but a look-alike (not a clone) system, made by
>>the same company that made the A/UX system for Apple.
>
>THAT company did not make A/UX for Apple. We conceived of, designed, and
>implemented A/UX. We have no "supplier" for A/UX. We own it, build it,
>maintain it, and enhance it.
Hmmm, for the record then, perhaps you could answer the following:
When and where exactly did Unix, running on the Mac-II hardware,
first boot up and issue a shell prompt?
Agreed, A/UX is greatly enhanced over the system that was probably
running on those first hardware prototypes, but making it sound like
Apple designed and implemented Unix from scratch just for the Mac-II
is like IBM claiming it invented the mouse and graphical interface.
Credit where credit is due...
-Fred
--
# Fred Fish, 1346 West 10th Place, Tempe, AZ 85281, USA
# noao!nud!fishpond!fnf (602) 921-1113
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mailrus!ames!oliveb!amdahl!craig
From: cr...@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Craig Harmer)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aux
Subject: Re: a/ux look-alikes etc
Message-ID: <adndIc2rdV1010afeWQ@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>
Date: 1 Sep 88 00:28:47 GMT
References: <16349@apple.Apple.COM>
Reply-To: cr...@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Craig Harmer)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 21
In article <16...@apple.Apple.COM> j...@Apple.COM (John Kullmann) writes:
>
>THAT company did not make A/UX for Apple. We conceived of, designed, and
>implemented A/UX. We have no "supplier" for A/UX. We own it, build it,
>maintain it, and enhance it. THAT company does not have, sell or intend to
>sell, nor is it licensed to sell a "look-alike" of A/UX.
>No one else has A/UX for the Mac (or for any other platform).
>
>Please refrain from posting statements that sound like facts unless you
>know that they are.
well, then what exactly did Apple buy from Unisoft? it's my understanding
that A/UX is based on a product from Unisoft, and further, that the
next release of A/UX is dependent on the next release of Unix from
Unisoft. Or do you believe that Apple hasn't purchased anything
from Unisoft? Or that Apple is producing something other than Unix?
--
[views above shouldn't be viewed as Amdahl views, or as views from Amdahl, or
as Amdahl views views, or as views by Mr. Amdahl, or as views from his house]
cr...@uts.amdahl.com ...!{uunet, sun, decwrl}!amdahl!craig
Path: utzoo!utgpu!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!lll-tis!ames!mailrus!
tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!apple!phil
From: p...@Apple.COM (Phil Ronzone)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aux
Subject: Re: a/ux look-alikes etc (long)
Message-ID: <16505@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 2 Sep 88 16:35:20 GMT
References: <16349@apple.Apple.COM> <126@fishpond.UUCP>
Reply-To: p...@apple.com.UUCP (Phil Ronzone)
Organization: Apple Computer A/UX Group
Lines: 79
In article <1...@fishpond.UUCP> f...@fishpond.UUCP (Fred Fish) writes:
>In article <16...@apple.Apple.COM> j...@Apple.COM (John Kullmann) writes:
>>THAT company did not make A/UX for Apple. We conceived of, designed, and
>>implemented A/UX. We have no "supplier" for A/UX. We own it, build it,
>Hmmm, for the record then, perhaps you could answer the following:
>When and where exactly did Unix, running on the Mac-II hardware,
>first boot up and issue a shell prompt?
Well, since Fred Fish worked at UniSoft at the time (in fact, I hired him),
he does know the answer. A UNIX SV port issued the first prompt on Mac II
hardware at UniSoft about 2.8 years ago.
Other than historical note, this is a meaningless answer. For example, the
first UNIX prompt I ever saw on a VAX was an Interactive port in 1978/1979.
Nothing came of it (that I know of), and today, when we think UNIX on a VAX,
we all think of BSD 4.X (right? :-)).
BUT -- A/UX came from Apple. Some of the work was done by Apple people,
some by contractors to Apple (many of which later became Apple employees),
some by UniSoft, some by contractors to UniSoft, and even some by contractors
to Apple who were subcontracted to UniSoft and vice-versa.
UniSoft is and always was a contracting outfit to Apple.
For example, job control and the "real csh". Assigned as a piece of work
to UniSoft, their initial response was "we don't want to do that -- it's
too hard ...". In fact, it took them three tries to do it to our
satisfaction. Then WE Q/A'd it (the UniSoft Q/A plan was "well, we just
figured to run the csh a while, do some CTL-Z's etc. ..."). We have
a fanatic and very very good Q/A group. As we Q/A'd it, we did not a small
amount of work on it to make it robust.
Such things as autoconfiguration, autorecovery, true BSD 4.x networking,
subnets, domain names, disk partitioning, job control, many BSD utilities,
rewriting the UNIX manuals, SASH, decent source code portability from BSD
to A/UX, toolbox and toolbox launch, slot manager, true and real SVID
compliance, and more, all are Apple features. We thought of them, and we
caused them to happen. Whether an Apple employee or contractor did them,
or a UniSoft employee or contractor did them is not relevant. The whole
A/UX project was and is managed by Apple, down to the project schedules
and Q/A plans.
UniSoft may have learned a lot from working with us (like doing real
software quality assurance and having a dedicated group to do it), but
that's O.K.
So to be CLEAR -- UniSoft makes and sells a UNIX port called UniPlus+.
It also was a contractor doing work on A/UX for Apple, to Apple specifications,
to Apple design documents and Apple project schedules (for amounts of
Apple money :-)).
UniSoft is very very good at getting a UNIX port up quickly on a strange
machine. Give them weird hardware and a weird MMU, and they can get a
port up in a few weeks (the standard UniSoft joke back then was "it just
gave the first prompt -- SHIP IT!!"). The record for a "custom MMU" get it
up to first prompt was TWO DAYS!!!
At Apple, our BASIC Q/A cycle is 12 WEEKS. Enough said?
So nothing in this in intended to put down UniSoft. If anything sounds like
that, I apologize. But UniSoft is (or was) "Ports-R-Us" that dealt only with
OEMs, and Apple is a very strong customer oriented outfit. The two companies
approach business in very different ways -- why not -- our customers are
very very different. UniSoft was a group of contractors to us, we paid them
very well, gave each UniSoft programmer who worked on the contract a Mac II,
and thanked them.
In the meantime, we are hiring more and more people to work on the future
releases of A/UX. If you are interested, mail me a resume. We want strong
UNIX and/or Macintosh OS internals people.
+------------------------+-----------------------+----------------------------+
| Philip K. Ronzone | A/UX System Architect | APPLELINK: RONZONE1 |
| Apple Computer +-----------------------+----------------------------+
| Mail Stop 27AJ | "Forgive him Caesar, for he is a barbarian, and |
| 10500 N. DeAnza Blvd. | thinks the features of his release are the ways |
| Cupertino CA 95014 | of nature." |
+------------------------+----------------------------------------------------+
|{amdahl,decwrl,sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual,unisoft}!apple!phil |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Path: utzoo!utgpu!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!lll-tis!ames!mailrus!
tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!apple!jk
From: j...@Apple.COM (John Kullmann)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aux
Subject: Re: a/ux look-alikes etc
Message-ID: <16506@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 2 Sep 88 16:39:54 GMT
References: <16349@apple.Apple.COM> <adndIc2rdV1010afeWQ@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>
Reply-To: j...@apple.com.UUCP (John Kullmann)
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA
Lines: 36
In article <adndIc2rdV1010af...@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>
cr...@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Craig Harmer) writes:
>well, then what exactly did Apple buy from Unisoft? it's my understanding
>that A/UX is based on a product from Unisoft, and further, that the
>next release of A/UX is dependent on the next release of Unix from
>Unisoft.
A/UX is based on SVR2, not on a product from UniSoft. The next release of
A/UX is not dependent on anything from UniSoft, just on the A/UX group
here at Apple slaving away as fast as we can :-).
>Or do you believe that Apple hasn't purchased anything
>from Unisoft?
Since I am the one managing our relationship with UniSoft
I KNOW what we have and haven't done with them. We did contract
with them to do work on A/UX and some of the documentation, but
that's old news.
>Or that Apple is producing something other than Unix?
No, our UNIX is just like everyone elses, only better...:-), and
different...:-). What I am saying is that it really is UNIX. I am
not sure what you mean by this, but I hope that answers it.
Geez, I hope SOMEDAY we can leave all this worry about who did what and
when to Apple's A/UX behind us. I don't hear or see people flaming and
going on and on about WHO worked on other vendors UNIX. We aren't the
first company to use contractors do so some of our s/w development.
And I suspect that everyone has just as many skeletons in their closets as
we might have in ours.
Hope this helps
-------------------- -------------------
John Kullmann "All opinions and comments are mine alone"
Overworked A/UX Technical Mgr ..!apple!jk
Voice: 408-973-2939
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!seismo!sundc!pitstop!sun!decwrl!nsc!voder!pyramid!wendyt
From: wendyt@pyrps5 (Wendy Thrash)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aux
Subject: Re: a/ux look-alikes etc (long)
Message-ID: <37927@pyramid.pyramid.com>
Date: 2 Sep 88 23:52:29 GMT
Sender: dae...@pyramid.pyramid.com
Reply-To: wen...@pyrps5.UUCP (Wendy Thrash)
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corp., Mountain View, CA
Lines: 44
In article <16...@apple.Apple.COM> p...@apple.com.UUCP (Phil Ronzone) writes:
<about A/UX, an Apple product, part of which was developed by UniSoft>
I don't see a lot of comment by UniSoft folks on this question (except Fred
Fish, of course, my predecessor as UniSoft's overworked compiler person),
perhaps because they/we're all bound by nondisclosure. I believe I can sneak
in a couple of comments legally, though.
>Such things as autoconfiguration, autorecovery, true BSD 4.x networking . . .
>all are Apple features. We thought of them, and we caused them to happen.
Am I the only one who thinks of Miss Anne Elk while reading this? Certainly
the presence of these features in A/UX was a decision made by Apple, and in
that sense they're responsible. There seems, though, to be an implication
that without Apple those things would never have found their way into UniPlus+.
I'm inclined to believe that many of them were destined for inclusion anyway.
Not all the things Phil mentioned are A/UX exclusives.
From inside UniSoft, perhaps the most impressive piece of work on the Apple
contract(s) was the effort that went into the documentation; Apple certainly
deserves the credit for setting that project in motion.
>UniSoft may have learned a lot from working with us . . .
This is an amusing understatement. We all learned a great deal. Perhaps
high-level managers learned about QA; the lessons learned by most of us
were rather more interpersonal in nature. (I think all you ex-UniSoft
folks out there know what I mean. :-) )
>UniSoft is very very good at getting a UNIX port up quickly on a strange
>machine.
UniSoft was very good at getting a UNIX port up quickly on a strange
68000-family machine. People there were good at dealing with strange MMUs.
BTW, UniSoft has changed a great deal over just the last eight months; one
should exercise some caution in making observations about how the company IS
based on how it WAS.
>UniSoft was a group of contractors to us, we paid them very well, gave each
>UniSoft programmer who worked on the contract a Mac II, and thanked them.
Would that it were so. Apple was quite generous with Mac IIs, but not
everyone who worked on the contract ended up with one.
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!mcvax!hp4nl!philmds!hulsebos
From: hulse...@philmds.UUCP (Rob Hulsebos)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aux
Subject: Re: a/ux look-alikes etc
Message-ID: <791@philmds.UUCP>
Date: 5 Sep 88 09:19:51 GMT
References: <16349@apple.Apple.COM> <126@fishpond.UUCP> <16505@apple.Apple.COM>
Reply-To: hulse...@philmds.UUCP (Rob Hulsebos)
Organization: Philips I&E Automation Modules Eindhoven
Lines: 25
In article <16...@apple.Apple.COM> p...@apple.com.UUCP (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>the UniSoft Q/A plan was "well, we just figured to run the csh a while, ...
Sounds familiar. I don't call that Q/A at all.
>As we Q/A'd it, we did not a small amount of work on it to make it robust.
Doing the same overhere.
>UniSoft is very very good at getting a UNIX port up quickly on a strange
>machine.
Absolutely true. The TCP/IP software works very fine too. It's only the
finishing touch that needs more finishing.
>At Apple, our BASIC Q/A cycle is 12 WEEKS. Enough said?
No. At Philips, it takes about the same amount of time. Only, I think that is
11 weeks to much. The Q/A must be done at UniSoft, not at customer's sites.
For the amount of money involved, I want a ready-to-run release: read in the
tape, and GO! No tedious checking...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R.A. Hulsebos, Philips I&E Automation Modules ...!mcvax!philmds!hulsebos
Building TQ-III-1 room 11 phone: +31-40-785723
Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Disclaimer: Philips pays me to have a different opinion; if we'd all share the
same opinion, everybody except the president would be superfluous.
Path: utzoo!yunexus!geac!syntron!jtsv16!uunet!cbmvax!rutgers!apple!phil
From: p...@Apple.COM (Phil Ronzone)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aux
Subject: Re: a/ux look-alikes etc (long)
Message-ID: <16673@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 6 Sep 88 16:47:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: apple.16673
References: <37927@pyramid.pyramid.com>
Reply-To: p...@apple.com.UUCP (Phil Ronzone)
Organization: Apple Computer A/UX Group
Lines: 73
In article <37...@pyramid.pyramid.com> wen...@pyrps5.UUCP (Wendy Thrash) writes:
>In article <16...@apple.Apple.COM> p...@apple.com.UUCP (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>Am I the only one who thinks of Miss Anne Elk while reading this? Certainly
>the presence of these features in A/UX was a decision made by Apple, and in
>that sense they're responsible. There seems, though, to be an implication
>that without Apple those things would never have found their way into UniPlus+.
>I'm inclined to believe that many of them were destined for inclusion anyway.
>Not all the things Phil mentioned are A/UX exclusives.
No - many of the things that were mentioned would NOT have happened without
Apple. Some of them for money - the money UniSoft earned on the Apple contract
should allow UniSoft to develop software that otherwise it could not.
Remember, I KNOW what the UniSoft problems were - I came from UniSoft to join
Apple. As a member of the management committee and as the UniSoft UNIX
Product Manager I knew the problems, weaknesses, costs of the UNIX license,
what the "gotcha clauses" in the contract were and so on.
Case in point -- true job control. Can you imagine a decent workstation
without true Berkeley style job control?? The technical staff at UniSoft
resisted this requirement. It was, to be honest, delicately shoved down
their throats. And it still took three tries. To be sure, a poll of the
UniSoft programmers at the time would most likely have had them all voting
unanimously to do job control AS LONG AS THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT -- heck,
that was true for the three years that I was there.
>BTW, UniSoft has changed a great deal over just the last eight months; one
>should exercise some caution in making observations about how the company IS
>based on how it WAS.
Hmm - I talked with 3 current UniSoft managers in July -- from that
conversation I concluded that despite a close to 100% turnover in the last
3 years at UniSoft, the more things changed, the more the stayed the same.
Of course, I'm not there -- I only know that 3 current managers at UniSoft
voice the same complaints as when I was there.
>>UniSoft was a group of contractors to us, we paid them very well, gave each
>>UniSoft programmer who worked on the contract a Mac II, and thanked them.
>Would that it were so. Apple was quite generous with Mac IIs, but not
>everyone who worked on the contract ended up with one.
Let me be more precise. WE (Apple) wanted to give each programmer on the
project who worked on it either full-time or made a major contribution
a Mac II. Not just for a thank you, but to have them using the product.
I.e., this will be YOUR UNIX system so do your best style motivation.
HOWEVER - UniSoft management did NOT want Apple giving the systems to the
programmers directly -- they wanted the control and did not want their
management/Santa Clause privileges usurped. So, since UniSoft wanted
control, we (Apple) decided on 18 systems to give to UniSoft to give to
their programmers. From the grumblings I've seen, UniSoft has not been
in "optimal mode" on this. If we, Apple, had had our way, we would have
been giving out systems almost a year ago. Direct to the programmers.
Because at UniSoft, as well as at Apple and elsewhere, there was some
mighty hard work. I personally worked from Christmas 86 through March
87 seven days a week, 16 hours a day, nonstop. Yet people such as Paul
Campbell at UniSoft worked even harder at times.
The point is -- it took Apple desire to do it right, the drive to MAKE it
happen, the intolerance of anyone's "organizational barriers" that tried
to stop A/UX from being done right, and Apple money, to do A/UX. It took
Apple to make it happen. And we've really just started.
Isn't looking at this moderately soiled underware fun for the net? :-)
+------------------------+-----------------------+----------------------------+
| Philip K. Ronzone | A/UX System Architect | APPLELINK: RONZONE1 |
| Apple Computer +-----------------------+----------------------------+
| Mail Stop 27AJ | "Forgive him Caesar, for he is a barbarian, and |
| 10500 N. DeAnza Blvd. | thinks the features of his release are the ways |
| Cupertino CA 95014 | of nature." |
+------------------------+----------------------------------------------------+
|{amdahl,decwrl,sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual,unisoft}!apple!phil |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+