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Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!yale!mintaka!spdcc!spt!mdc
From: m...@spt.entity.com (Marty Connor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Public Archive Format Issues
Summary: Proprietary formats for Public Data considered harmful
Keywords: encryption conversion issues
Message-ID: <6050@spt.entity.com>
Date: 15 Sep 90 19:45:16 GMT
Lines: 57
Posted: Sat Sep 15 20:45:16 1990

An issue for people maintaining public archives who may be considering
what format to store their archive files in:

    If you use a format that is not public knowledge,  noone can
    easily write a program to convert directly to a new format.

    For example:  It would be hard to write:
      STUFFIT DELUXE -> COMPACTOR conversion routines
    because both formats are proprietary.

    While it is possible to decompress and then recompress an
    archive, it is a lot more trouble than running a conversion
    routine that can simply create a new archive and delete the
    old one.

    It is also difficult to do the conversion on another platform
    because "free" decompression tools typically run only on one 
    platform.

I therefore urge people who keep public archives to resist using
proprietary formats for their archives as in the future conversion to
a new standard will be harder.

Proposal for the Macintosh:

Stick with Stuffit 1.5.1 format for now.  If a better format becomes
public knowledge, then wait for a 1.5.1 -> Better-Public-Format
program to appear.  Then switch to the new Public-Format.

In this way vendors will be encouraged to make formats public to sell
to all the people who use public bboards to download.

Benefits:

Programmers will be able to manipulate archives without permission
from greedy companies.

Users will have a choice in compression/decompression tools.

Companies will have incentive to give decent documentation and support
to make it worth buying a proprietary product.

Public Archive maintainers will be able to use tools to convert from
one format to another directly.

Request:

If you believe these concerns are valid, please post this message to
as many bulletin boards and online services as possible so that others
can help keep public data in public formats.

Thank you.

-- 
Marty Connor, Marty's Computer Workshop,  "Specializing in Macintosh Training"
126 Inman Street, Cambridge, MA 02139; (617) 491-6935
m...@entity.com, or ...{harvard|uunet}!mit-eddie!spt!mdc

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!lll-winken!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!samsung!
munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!clubmac
From: clu...@runxtsa.runx.oz.au (Australia's Largest Mac Users Group)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: Public Archive Format Issues
Keywords: encryption conversion issues
Message-ID: <2267@runxtsa.runx.oz.au>
Date: 19 Sep 90 02:10:18 GMT
References: <6050@spt.entity.com>
Organization: RUNX Unix Timeshare.  Sydney, Australia.
Lines: 62
Posted: Wed Sep 19 03:10:18 1990

In article <60...@spt.entity.com> m...@spt.entity.com (Marty Connor) writes:
>Proposal for the Macintosh:
>Stick with Stuffit 1.5.1 format for now.  If a better format becomes
>public knowledge, then wait for a 1.5.1 -> Better-Public-Format
>program to appear.  Then switch to the new Public-Format.
>In this way vendors will be encouraged to make formats public to sell
>to all the people who use public bboards to download.

This is totally screwball. How many people seriously want to unstuff files
on a Unix host? I compress all the binhex, download it using ZMODEM and use
MacCompress to de-compress the binhex, then use StuffIt 1.5.1 to decode the
binhex, then unstuff the resulting file.

There is only one reason for not adopting Stuffit Deluxe archives, is that
the format is not available to the infinitesimal group who want to unstuff on
a machine other than a Macintosh. Since Stuffit Classic is still shareware,
people can use the stuffit deluxe format, and only pay the shareware fee.

I can bet that Marty didn't pay his shareware fee of $20, like the thousands
of shareware sneaks out there that use Stuffit for free.

>Benefits:
>Programmers will be able to manipulate archives without permission
>from greedy companies.

Great Marty, now you're calling Aladdin greedy. Wow you must be the last
American socialist...

Did you expect Stuffit to evolve without money? The shareware scheme failed
because people were too lousy to pay the $20.

>Users will have a choice in compression/decompression tools.

Users have had a choice for many moons.

>Companies will have incentive to give decent documentation and support
>to make it worth buying a proprietary product.

It's already worth it to buy products like Stuffit Deluxe & DiskDoubler.

>Request:
>If you believe these concerns are valid, please post this message to
>as many bulletin boards and online services as possible so that others
>can help keep public data in public formats.

Yes, lets hold back progress for the benefit of a handful of people that
want to do unusual things with Macintosh shareware archives. This would be
analogous to Apple withholding System software because it crashed on Mac
clones....

 _____________________________________________________________________________
| Jason Haines, Vice-President                                                |
| Club Mac - Australia's Largest Macintosh Users Group                        |
| G.P.O. Box 4523, Sydney, New South Wales, AUSTRALIA, 2001                   |
|                                                                             |
| INTERNET...@runxtsa.runx.oz.au  UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!clubmac |
| ACSNet:  clubmac@runxtsa.runx.oz                                            |
|                                                                             |
| Phone: (02) 743-6929                            Club Mac BBS: (02) 907-9198 |
|                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |
| "If that was his face, then he has a huge cleft in his chin" - Agent 86     |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ames!dftsrv!mimsy!mojo!russotto
From: russ...@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: Public Archive Format Issues
Keywords: encryption conversion issues
Message-ID: <1990Sep20.013226.17253@eng.umd.edu>
Date: 20 Sep 90 01:32:26 GMT
References: <6050@spt.entity.com> <2267@runxtsa.runx.oz.au>
Sender: ne...@eng.umd.edu (The News System)
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Lines: 69
Posted: Thu Sep 20 02:32:26 1990

In article <22...@runxtsa.runx.oz.au> clu...@runxtsa.runx.oz.au 
(Australia's Largest Mac Users Group) writes:
>In article <60...@spt.entity.com> m...@spt.entity.com (Marty Connor) writes:
>>Proposal for the Macintosh:
>>Stick with Stuffit 1.5.1 format for now.  If a better format becomes
>>public knowledge, then wait for a 1.5.1 -> Better-Public-Format
>>program to appear.  Then switch to the new Public-Format.
>>In this way vendors will be encouraged to make formats public to sell
>>to all the people who use public bboards to download.
>

>This is totally screwball. How many people seriously want to unstuff files
>on a Unix host? I compress all the binhex, download it using ZMODEM and use
>MacCompress to de-compress the binhex, then use StuffIt 1.5.1 to decode the
>binhex, then unstuff the resulting file.
>
>There is only one reason for not adopting Stuffit Deluxe archives, is that
>the format is not available to the infinitesimal group who want to unstuff on
>a machine other than a Macintosh. Since Stuffit Classic is still shareware,
>people can use the stuffit deluxe format, and only pay the shareware fee.
>
>I can bet that Marty didn't pay his shareware fee of $20, like the thousands
>of shareware sneaks out there that use Stuffit for free.
*FLAME ON*
You presumptious shithead. What makes you think that YOUR situation is
universal, or even common?  And where do you get off calling him a shareware
sneak based on no evidence?  
*FLAME OFF*

Here's another bunch of people who might want to stuff/unstuff on other than
a Mac: archive maintainers and BBS operators.  

>>Benefits:
>>Programmers will be able to manipulate archives without permission
>>from greedy companies.
>
>Great Marty, now you're calling Aladdin greedy. Wow you must be the last
>American socialist...
>
>Did you expect Stuffit to evolve without money? The shareware scheme failed
>because people were too lousy to pay the $20.

In many other cases, yes, but there were other reasons Stuffit is no longer
shareware.  (Hint: Ray Lau graduated high school)

>>Companies will have incentive to give decent documentation and support
>>to make it worth buying a proprietary product.
>
>It's already worth it to buy products like Stuffit Deluxe & DiskDoubler.

In your not so humble (and incorrect, in MY NSHO) opinion.

>>Request:
>>If you believe these concerns are valid, please post this message to
>>as many bulletin boards and online services as possible so that others
>>can help keep public data in public formats.
>
>Yes, lets hold back progress for the benefit of a handful of people that
>want to do unusual things with Macintosh shareware archives. This would be
>analogous to Apple withholding System software because it crashed on Mac
>clones....

We aren't asking for Aladdin to write a program to do all this stuff on
non-macs-- only for them to make the information available to do so.  If
you want another software analog, it would be like Apple refusing to release
Inside Mac so that only they and other big companies willing to pay to
learn the interfaces could program it.
--
Matthew T. Russotto	russ...@eng.umd.edu	russ...@wam.umd.edu
      .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!
munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!clubmac
From: clu...@runxtsa.runx.oz.au (Macintosh Users Group)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: Public Archive Format Issues
Keywords: encryption conversion issues
Message-ID: <2283@runxtsa.runx.oz.au>
Date: 22 Sep 90 05:48:43 GMT
References: <6050@spt.entity.com> <2267@runxtsa.runx.oz.au> 
<1990Sep20.013226.17253@eng.umd.edu>
Organization: RUNX Unix Timeshare.  Sydney, Australia.
Lines: 46
Posted: Sat Sep 22 06:48:43 1990

In article <1990Sep20.0...@eng.umd.edu> russ...@eng.umd.edu 
(Matthew T. Russotto) writes:
>*FLAME ON*
>You presumptious shithead. What makes you think that YOUR situation is
>universal, or even common?  And where do you get off calling him a shareware
>sneak based on no evidence?  
>*FLAME OFF*

Great, name-calling. This really makes for a good discussion, doesn't it?
Since I am flame-proof, I do not need to reply in kind.

Most Mac users do not use UNIX-based stuffit-compatible tools, and I know this
from vast experience with Mac users from all over Australia, and many in the
U.S.

After reading the mountains of drivel coming from people saying "Let's abandon
the Stuffit format in favour of Compactor" (the format for which has not been
made public), I just couldn't let it go on without commenting on the whole
thread as the biggest wank in comp.sys.mac history. The comp.binaries.mac
moderator has indicated that postings will remain in Stuffit 1.5.1 format.
Most probably the info-mac archives will too.

Of course, if Marty Connor wants to write a new suite of multi-platform
compression tools for the public good, then we should support such an effort.
It's obvious to anyone with any intelligence that compression tools that run
on a range of machines & operating systems are a good thing. Now let's see
something write it.

>Here's another bunch of people who might want to stuff/unstuff on other than
>a Mac: archive maintainers and BBS operators.  

Has anyone spoke to Aladdin regarding the licensing of the format for Stuffit
Deluxe?


 _____________________________________________________________________________
| Jason Haines, Vice-President                                                |
| Club Mac - Australia's Largest Macintosh Users Group                        |
| G.P.O. Box 4523, Sydney, New South Wales, AUSTRALIA, 2001                   |
|                                                                             |
| INTERNET...@runxtsa.runx.oz.au  UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!clubmac |
| ACSNet:  clubmac@runxtsa.runx.oz                                            |
|                                                                             |
| Phone: (02) 743-6929                            Club Mac BBS: (02) 907-9198 |
|                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |
| "If that was his face, then he has a huge cleft in his chin" - Agent 86     |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|

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