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Path: gmdzi!unido!fauern!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!
usc!apple!...@apple.com
From: c...@apple.com (Chris Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <16288@goofy.Apple.COM>
Date: 16 Sep 91 22:08:29 GMT
Sender: use...@Apple.COM
Organization: Apple Computer
Lines: 43

Dear fellow netters, 
    I am an human interface designer at Apple Computer who
is doing some research on people's mental model of networks.  To this end
I wanted to throw up the following questions for public responses.  I am not
interested in any particular answer.  In fact, I want is to to get as many
different answers as possible, no matter how strange.

Anyway, here are the questions.


Suppose you are trying to explain the network to someone who is completely
unfamiliar with computers.

1) How would you describe it to them?

2) Would you use any analogies to objects or ideas in the real world?

3) How would you describe various tasks that people use networks for?
   (Netnews, Telnet, FTP, Hooking up to a database, EMail,
   Printing to a shared printer, etc)

4) If you answered yes to question 2 then how do these tasks fit into
   the analogy?

5) How would you explain to someone how to find something on the net that
   they were looking for?  (Example the ftp site that has program X)

6) Now if the user had some experience using applications on a computer but
   no network experience, would any of your answers to the above change?


Optional background question

7)	What 3 computers do you use the most, and what do you use them for?

Please reply via EMail to c...@apple.com

Also please post any analogies that you come up with.  I am interested
in seeing what kind of discussion develops.


Thanks in advance
     Chris Warren

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!sunic!ugle.unit.no!alf.uib.no!buboo
From: bu...@alf.uib.no (Ove Ruben R Olsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <1991Sep17.073853.15203@alf.uib.no>
Date: 17 Sep 91 07:38:53 GMT
References: <16288@goofy.Apple.COM>
Sender: Gnarfer
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway
Lines: 36

In article <16...@goofy.Apple.COM> c...@apple.com (Chris Warren) writes:
>Dear fellow netters, 
>    I am an human interface designer at Apple Computer who
>is doing some research on people's mental model of networks.  To this end
>I wanted to throw up the following questions for public responses.  I am not
>interested in any particular answer.  In fact, I want is to to get as many
>different answers as possible, no matter how strange.
>

Hmm this smells like a very cheap way of doing researh on Human Interface !!!!

In my oppinion I would suggest that, YOU, the people boycot this.
If APPLE (a company with huge amounts of money) wan't to do researh, let
them pay the price.

[ Stuff deleted ]

>
>Thanks in advance
>     Chris Warren


Say NO to User Interface Copyright !
Boycot Lotus, Apple, Xerox, Ashton-Tate, and others !

\Ruben.

PS: I'm not a communist, I just don't fancy monopolies.
    In fact communism is just like monopolism: One little group is controlling
    the rest of the comunity.
    Would YOU, as a person with FREE-WILL and THOUGH like that ONE company
    controlled HOW you should to your WORK ? 

DS



-- 
    Ove Ruben R Olsen, Proffessional VI user.  EMAIL: rube...@viggo.blh.no
    Also known as "The Gnarfer from Hell".  (Registred character of ORRO.)
    On IRC as: Gnarfer. IRC-Admin at Bergen Edu College and Univ of Bergen

Path: gmdzi!unido!math.fu-berlin.de!fauern!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!
spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!uqcspe!cs.uq.oz.au!matthew
From: matt...@cs.uq.oz.au (Matthew McDonald)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Summary: Don't do it!
Message-ID: <3822@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au>
Date: 17 Sep 91 12:57:48 GMT
References: <16288@goofy.Apple.COM>
Sender: n...@cs.uq.oz.au
Reply-To: matt...@cs.uq.oz.au
Organization: Computer Science Department, The University of Queensland, 
Brisbane, Australia
Lines: 14

In article <16...@goofy.Apple.COM> c...@apple.com (Chris Warren) writes:
>Dear fellow netters, 
>    I am an human interface designer at Apple Computer who
>is doing some research on people's mental model of networks.  To this end
>I wanted to throw up the following questions for public responses.  I am not
>interested in any particular answer.  In fact, I want is to to get as many
>different answers as possible, no matter how strange.

Hi all,
	I'd just like to say, please don't help this person from apple.
Support the Free Software Foundation and boycott Apple. Just My 2 cents worth...

Regards,
	Matthew.

Path: gmdzi!unido!unidui!math.fu-berlin.de!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!think.com!barmar
From: bar...@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <1991Sep17.161322.2488@Think.COM>
Date: 17 Sep 91 16:13:22 GMT
References: <16288@goofy.Apple.COM> <1991Sep17.073853.15203@alf.uib.no>
Sender: n...@Think.COM
Reply-To: bar...@think.com
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 21

In article <1991Sep17.073853.15...@alf.uib.no> bu...@alf.uib.no 
(Ove Ruben R Olsen) writes:
>In my oppinion I would suggest that, YOU, the people boycot this.
>If APPLE (a company with huge amounts of money) wan't to do researh, let
>them pay the price.

Just to play Devil's Advocate:

Isn't one of the justifications sometimes given for user interface
copyrights that it is expensive to develop them, because of the research
and testing involved?  Thus, if you force Apple to "pay the price", aren't
you giving them more ammunition?

What bothered me most about Apple's posting was that they sent it as
separate postings to about a half-dozen newsgroups, instead of as a single,
cross-posted article.  If they're going to use the net as a resource, they
should at least learn how to use it properly.
-- 
Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp.

bar...@think.com
{uunet,harvard}!think!barmar

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!midway!midway.uchicago.edu!francis
From: fran...@zaphod.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <FRANCIS.91Sep17191356@math.zaphod.uchicago.edu>
Date: 18 Sep 91 01:13:56 GMT
References: <16288@goofy.Apple.COM> <3822@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au>
Sender: n...@midway.uchicago.edu (NewsMistress)
Reply-To: fran...@zaphod.uchicago.edu
Organization: Mathematics Department, University of Chicago
Lines: 29
In-Reply-To: matthew@cs.uq.oz.au's message of 17 Sep 91 12: 57:48 GMT

In article <3...@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au> matt...@cs.uq.oz.au (Matthew McDonald) 
writes:

>In article <16...@goofy.Apple.COM> c...@apple.com (Chris Warren) writes:
[asks for HI help]

>Hi all,
>	I'd just like to say, please don't help this person from apple.
>Support the Free Software Foundation and boycott Apple. Just My 2 cents worth.

More like 2 kopeks.  I have yet to hear a rational explanation of why
people expect to be able to get good software if *nobody* gets paid
for it.  (Can somebody please explain how the FSF people manage to
keep eating?)

Apple may do some annoying things--let me rephrase that: Apple *does*
do some annoying things--but the Mac is a wonderful machine, and I
have no intention of boycotting it.  For one thing, its GUI is the
only one I've ever used that doesn't feel like it was designed by a
band of preschool children.  Apple's Human Interface people do great
work, and (as near as I can tell) share their research, if not the
specific design decisions made as a result.

--
/============================================================================\
| Francis Stracke              | My opinions are my own.  I don't steal them.|
| Department of Mathematics    |=============================================|
| University of Chicago        | Many people would sooner die than think.    |
| fran...@zaphod.uchicago.edu  |  In fact, they do. -- Bertrand Russell      |
\============================================================================/

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!
news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!nmsu!opus!larry
From: la...@peak.psl.nmsu (Larry Cunningham)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <LARRY.91Sep17163935@peak.psl.nmsu>
Date: 17 Sep 91 22:39:35 GMT
References: <16288@goofy.Apple.COM> <3822@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au>
Sender: n...@NMSU.Edu
Organization: New Mexico State University, Physical Science Laboratory
Lines: 15
In-reply-to: matthew@cs.uq.oz.au's message of 17 Sep 91 12:57:48 GMT

Gee, isn't Apple that company who tries to sue everyone for copying 
=their= graphics interface, which they stole from Xerox in the first place?
Now an employee of theirs has the gall to try to conduct Apple's design
research via network.

Let's =don't= help Apple do anything, huh?

Nothing personal, Matt. But Apple can go suck an egg.

"Yeh, Buddy..            | lcunn...@nmsu.edu (Larry Cunningham) |  _~~_
 I've got your COMPUTER! | % Physical Science Laboratory        | (O)(-)
 Right HERE!!"           | New Mexico State University          |  /..\ 
 (computer THIS!)        | Las Cruces, New Mexico, USA 88003    |   <> 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are CORRECT, mine, and not PSLs or NMSUs..

Path: gmdzi!unido!unidui!math.fu-berlin.de!fauern!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!
qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!
news.bbn.com!bbn.com!saustin
From: saus...@bbn.com (Steve Austin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <66377@bbn.BBN.COM>
Date: 18 Sep 91 15:15:07 GMT
References: <16288@goofy.Apple.COM> <3822@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au> 
<FRANCIS.91Sep17191356@math.zaphod.uchicago.edu>
Sender: n...@bbn.com
Lines: 27

fran...@zaphod.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes:

->More like 2 kopeks.  I have yet to hear a rational explanation of why
->people expect to be able to get good software if *nobody* gets paid
->for it.  (Can somebody please explain how the FSF people manage to
->keep eating?)

->Apple may do some annoying things--let me rephrase that: Apple *does*
->do some annoying things--but the Mac is a wonderful machine, and I
->have no intention of boycotting it.
-> [stuff about how good Macs are deleted]

One of the objections is that Mr Warren is using Usenet as a primary
tool to conduct research.  This means that he is using the loose affiliation
of organizations and their resources (including those of Apple's
competitors).  Just as you should not use Usenet to advertize your
product, I think it goes thouroughly against the whole idea of Usenet
to use it to conduct a market survey.  This is not only a moral
standpoint, but it also protects Usenet from getting involved in
litigation.

Apple can spend its own money on gathering information that it
can use to build a better product.  If Apple were useing Usenet to
help publish an open standard things might be different, but I don't think
that anybody really expects this of them.

	Steve Austin

Path: gmdzi!unido!unidui!math.fu-berlin.de!fauern!ira.uka.de!
sol.ctr.columbia.edu!samsung!uunet!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!a218
From: Charlie_Gi...@mindlink.bc.ca (Charlie Gibbs)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <7513@mindlink.bc.ca>
Date: 19 Sep 91 01:16:42 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 30

In article <66...@bbn.BBN.COM> saus...@bbn.com (Steve Austin) writes:

>...      I think it goes thouroughly against the whole idea of Usenet
>to use it to conduct a market survey.  This is not only a moral
>standpoint, but it also protects Usenet from getting involved in
>litigation.
>
>Apple can spend its own money on gathering information that it
>can use to build a better product.  If Apple were useing Usenet to
>help publish an open standard things might be different, but I don't think
>that anybody really expects this of them.

     I enjoy helping people out if I can answer their questions.
But consider the following scenario:  I say a few things that get
incorporated into this survey.  A while later someone asks me
similar questions to which I give similar answers.  Based on this
advice, he writes something that's similar enough to something that
Apple did that they set the dogs on him.  Not only that, I get
charged with counseling the poor guy to commit the act that he's
being charged for.

     Silly?  Perhaps.  Paranoid?  I hope so.  But given the current
state of affairs, where people would rather litigate than innovate,
it's certainly not impossible.

     Under the circumstances, maybe we'd better watch our exposure.
Just Say No.  :-)

Charlie_Gi...@mindlink.bc.ca
"I'm cursed with hair from HELL!"  -- Night Court

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!
nucsrl!ddsw1!whos
From: w...@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <1991Sep18.232131.8758@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
Date: 18 Sep 91 23:21:31 GMT
References: <16288@goofy.Apple.COM> <3822@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au> 
<LARRY.91Sep17163935@peak.psl.nmsu>
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago, IL
Lines: 20

In article <LARRY.91Sep17163...@peak.psl.nmsu> la...@peak.psl.nmsu 
(Larry Cunningham) writes:
>Gee, isn't Apple that company who tries to sue everyone for copying 
>=their= graphics interface, which they stole from Xerox in the first place?

Now, now... The recent computer issue of Sci. American had a big article on
Xerox PARC, and it looks like they're doing new and exciting things with
GUI's, while Apple is still making new flavors of Macs.  

>Let's =don't= help Apple do anything, huh?

On the other hand, Apple is more or less responsible for computer technology
as we know it today.  To be more specific, Steve Wozniak is responsible for
computer technology as we know it today, and Steve Jobs is responsible for
shitty machines as we know them today.

-- 
w...@ddsw1.MCS.COM | I don't know, who's at DDSW1? | w...@ddsw1.MCS.COM!
I asked YOU who's at DDSW1! Ok, there's a guy at DDSW1, right? | Right!
Who? | Exactly! | What? | No, he's at lll-winken. | Where? | No, What! |  I
don't know! | He's at gargoyle. | Who? | No, he's at DDSW1.MCS.COM!

Path: gmdzi!unido!math.fu-berlin.de!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!
zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uvaarpa!murdoch!topaz!spm2d
From: sp...@topaz.cs.Virginia.EDU (Steven P. Miale)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <1991Sep19.115610.29869@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Date: 19 Sep 91 11:56:10 GMT
References: <3822@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au> <LARRY.91Sep17163935@peak.psl.nmsu> 
<1991Sep18.232131.8758@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
Sender: use...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU
Organization: University of Virginia Computer Science Department
Lines: 38

In article <1991Sep18.232131.8...@ddsw1.MCS.COM> w...@ddsw1.MCS.COM 
(Ben Feen) writes:
>In article <LARRY.91Sep17163...@peak.psl.nmsu> la...@peak.psl.nmsu 
(Larry Cunningham) writes:
>>Gee, isn't Apple that company who tries to sue everyone for copying 
>>=their= graphics interface, which they stole from Xerox in the first place?
>
>Now, now... The recent computer issue of Sci. American had a big article on
>Xerox PARC, and it looks like they're doing new and exciting things with
>GUI's, while Apple is still making new flavors of Macs.  

EVERYBODY is doing something new with GUIs. Including UVa.
>
>>Let's =don't= help Apple do anything, huh?
>
>On the other hand, Apple is more or less responsible for computer technology
>as we know it today.  To be more specific, Steve Wozniak is responsible for
>computer technology as we know it today, and Steve Jobs is responsible for
>shitty machines as we know them today.

And NONE OF THEM are at Apple anymore! Jobs founded NeXT (help them instead)
and Wozniak is working with the EFF.
The people who run Apple now are lawyers and profiteers. *NOT* 
Computer Scientists. Even IBM allowed people to make clones of its computers!
Can you say the same for Apple?
 
Remember, all that Apple *WILL* do with this info is make a GUI and sue
everybody who tries to make the same improvements. Screw that.
>
>-- 
>w...@ddsw1.MCS.COM | I don't know, who's at DDSW1? | w...@ddsw1.MCS.COM!
>I asked YOU who's at DDSW1! Ok, there's a guy at DDSW1, right? | Right!
>Who? | Exactly! | What? | No, he's at lll-winken. | Where? | No, What! |  I
>don't know! | He's at gargoyle. | Who? | No, he's at DDSW1.MCS.COM!


Steven Miale                   | "No delirium, no absurd metaphors, no    |
University of Virginia         | feelings: nothing but facts. Because I   |
Undergraduate Researcher       | am well, I am entirely, absolutely well."|
sp...@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu    |  - Yevgeny Zamyatin, _WE_                | 

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!barmar
From: bar...@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <1991Sep19.155336.16068@Think.COM>
Date: 19 Sep 91 15:53:36 GMT
References: <7513@mindlink.bc.ca>
Sender: n...@Think.COM
Reply-To: bar...@think.com
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 33

In article <7...@mindlink.bc.ca> Charlie_Gi...@mindlink.bc.ca (Charlie Gibbs) 
writes:
>But consider the following scenario:  I say a few things that get
>incorporated into this survey.  A while later someone asks me
>similar questions to which I give similar answers.  Based on this
>advice, he writes something that's similar enough to something that
>Apple did that they set the dogs on him.  Not only that, I get
>charged with counseling the poor guy to commit the act that he's
>being charged for.

Sounds like you're confusing copyrights with patents.  If you invent
something independently, you can't have violated a copyright.  You have to
actively copy something (hence the "copy" in the term); e.g., look at a
Macintosh, say to yourself, "that trash can in the bottom right is a nice
feature," and then put a trash can icon in the bottom right of your own
display.  If this guy comes out with his software around the same time as
Apple, and he wasn't a beta tester, it's unlikely that he could have copied
it.

It's only patents that disallow independent invention as an excuse for
infringement.

Also, they probably wouldn't bother suing if there were just one or two
similar features (there's only so many ways to open a menu, for instance);
the guy isn't likely to come out with an entire UIMS that duplicates most
of Apple's just because he got a few ideas from the same people who
answered Apple's survey.  Apple went after people who had applications that
looked almost exactly like the Finder, not just because they had a trash
can in the bottom right.
-- 
Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp.

bar...@think.com
{uunet,harvard}!think!barmar

Path: gmdzi!unido!math.fu-berlin.de!fauern!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!
qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!
linac!midway!quads!jcav
From: j...@quads.uchicago.edu (john  cavallino)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <1991Sep19.174209.1287@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: 19 Sep 91 17:42:09 GMT
References: <LARRY.91Sep17163935@peak.psl.nmsu> 
<1991Sep18.232131.8758@ddsw1.MCS.COM> 
<1991Sep19.115610.29869@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Sender: n...@midway.uchicago.edu (NewsMistress)
Organization: University of Chicago
Lines: 17

In article <1991Sep19.115610.29...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> 
sp...@topaz.cs.Virginia.EDU (Steven P. Miale) writes:
>Even IBM allowed people to make clones of its computers!

Don't credit IBM with any such generosity.  IBM sued the first clean-room
clone makers and _lost_.  They would very much preferred to have stopped
them.  The reason no Macintosh clones have appeared is that cloning the Mac
OS under lawsuit-proof clean-room conditions is much much more difficult than
cloning the silly ROM BIOS of PC-type computers, and because not enough of
a potential market was perceived.  Now, a company called NuTech is supposedly
nearing the release of clone ROMs produced via strict clean-room techniques.
We shall see...

-- 
John Cavallino                      |     EMail: j...@midway.uchicago.edu
University of Chicago Hospitals     |    USMail: 5841 S. Maryland Ave, Box 145
Office of Facilities Management     |            Chicago, IL  60637
B0 f++ c+ g+ k s+(+) e+ h- pv (qv)  | Telephone: 312-702-6900

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!sugar!taronga!peter
From: pe...@taronga.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <WS98V6B@taronga.hackercorp.com>
Date: 24 Sep 91 03:06:33 GMT
References: <1991Sep19.155336.16068@Think.COM>
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Lines: 16

bar...@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes:
> Apple went after people who had applications that
> looked almost exactly like the Finder, not just because they had a trash
> can in the bottom right.

Apple went after their major competitors, because they thought they
had a leg to stand on. They deliberately modified the interface their
competitors were using way out of delivered specs to produce something
that looked a little like a Mac. If you think there's any justice in
their stand, or that the scenario you're responding to isn't possible,
you're fooling yourself.
-- 
-- Peter da Silva.      3D0G `-_-'
-- Taronga Park BBS.
-- +1 713 568 0480|1032 2400/n/8/1.
-- "Have you hugged your wolf today?"

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!
connection!jerry
From: je...@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <1991Sep24.210141.20139@ctr.columbia.edu>
Date: 24 Sep 91 21:01:41 GMT
References: <LARRY.91Sep17163935@peak.psl.nmsu> 
<1991Sep18.232131.8758@ddsw1.MCS.COM> 
<1991Sep19.115610.29869@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> 
<1991Sep19.174209.1287@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: use...@ctr.columbia.edu (I Use Net)
Organization: Polygen Corporation, Waltham, MA
Lines: 27

j...@quads.uchicago.edu (john  cavallino) writes:
>
>The reason no Macintosh clones have appeared is that cloning the Mac
>OS under lawsuit-proof clean-room conditions is much much more difficult than
>cloning the silly ROM BIOS of PC-type computers, and because not enough of
>a potential market was perceived.  Now, a company called NuTech is supposedly
>nearing the release of clone ROMs produced via strict clean-room techniques.
>We shall see...
>

OK, now I'm REALLY confused.  It's OK for a small company to make a CLONE
Mac as long as they don't actually use any of Apple's code, but it's a
NO-NO for a big company in Redmond to make an environment that even REMOTELY
RESEMBLES the Mac?  Where's the distinction here?

>
>John Cavallino
>
--
+-------------------+----------------------+---------------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | POLYGEN CORPORATION  | When I was young, I had to walk |
| Drummers do it... | Waltham, MA USA      | to school and back every day -- |
|    ... In rhythm! | (617) 890-2175       | 20 miles, uphill both ways.     |
+-------------------+----------------------+---------------------------------+
|           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
|                            je...@polygen.com                               |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!dcs.ed.ac.uk!awrc
From: a...@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Al Crawford)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Human Interface Survey
Message-ID: <18288@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk>
Date: 25 Sep 91 10:30:02 GMT
References: <LARRY.91Sep17163935@peak.psl.nmsu> 
<1991Sep18.232131.8758@ddsw1.MCS.COM> 
<1991Sep19.115610.29869@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> 
<1991Sep19.174209.1287@midway.uchicago.edu> 
<1991Sep24.210141.20139@ctr.columbia.edu>
Sender: nn...@dcs.ed.ac.uk
Reply-To: a...@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Al Crawford)
Organization: The University Of Edinburgh - Department Of Computer Science
Lines: 18

In article <1991Sep24.210141.20...@ctr.columbia.edu> 
je...@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>
>OK, now I'm REALLY confused.  It's OK for a small company to make a CLONE
>Mac as long as they don't actually use any of Apple's code, but it's a
>NO-NO for a big company in Redmond to make an environment that even REMOTELY
>RESEMBLES the Mac?  Where's the distinction here?

The Mac clones won't be using the Mac GUI, which is the bit Apple get
lawsuit-happy about, the cloning will be of the OS itself. I believe the
GUI on the NuTech clone will be based around Motif or something along those
lines. The idea is that when you run Mac applications on your Mac clone
it'll still run OK but it'll have NuTech looks rather than the standard Mac
desktop. Quite how this'll work, I'm not sure, but it'll be interesting to
see how their attempt turns out.

--
			Al Crawford - a...@dcs.ed.ac.uk
	 "Such a digital lifetime, it's been by numbers all the while"

Path: gmdzi!unido!unidui!math.fu-berlin.de!fauern!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!
qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!barmar
From: bar...@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: MacClone (was Re: Human Interface Survey)
Message-ID: <1991Sep25.195308.23483@Think.COM>
Date: 25 Sep 91 19:53:08 GMT
References: <1991Sep19.174209.1287@midway.uchicago.edu> 
<1991Sep24.210141.20139@ctr.columbia.edu> <18288@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk>
Sender: n...@Think.COM
Reply-To: bar...@think.com
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 33

In article <18...@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> a...@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Al Crawford) writes:
>The idea is that when you run Mac applications on your Mac clone
>it'll still run OK but it'll have NuTech looks rather than the standard Mac
>desktop. Quite how this'll work, I'm not sure, but it'll be interesting to
>see how their attempt turns out.

Yes, it should be pretty interesting.

I actually don't think it should be *that* hard to get it working, even.
The Macintosh Toolbox is extremely well modularized, so it should be
relatively easy to plug in different GUI styles without affecting
applications.  For instance, when applications put up windows, they specify
generic window types in the calls to the Window Manager, and then the
Window Manager constructs the actual window.  The application never
actually specifies details such as the location of the close box, resize
handles, or window labels.  Clicks in these boxes are translated into
higher-level events by the Window Manager.  Similarly, applications display
menus with generic calls, and it's up to the Menu Manager to actually place
them and generate appropriate events.

To some extent, MacOS was designed with this type of replaceability in
mind.  This is one of the things that impressed me about the Mac; not only
was it nice looking on the outside, it's reasonably well designed on the
inside.  It's not perfect, as it can be extremely tedious to program (every
program has to start with a zillion InitXXX calls, for example);
application skeletons and libraries like MacApp fill in many of the holes,
though.

-- 
Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp.

bar...@think.com
{uunet,harvard}!think!barmar

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