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From: "Edward Voas" <ev...@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Sticky menus?
Date: 1996/06/26
Message-ID: <ADF7518A-2B1DA@204.167.109.214>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 162297442
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com>
content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
x-newsgroups-to: nntp://news.shore.net/comp.sys.mac.system
organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (in...@shore.net)
x-news-servers: news.shore.net
mime-version: 1.0
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system
x-mailer: Cyberdog/1.0

>Now, first of all, I assume this is in response to all the Windows users
>who whine about, "How come the Mac menus don't stay down when you click
>them??!?" That's fine...as long as it doesn't change the current operation
>of the menus. For example, I know that you can click and pull down a
>Windows menu, and let go to make the selection, just like the Mac. But if
>you click and hold, then let go later, the menu stays up. I would despise
>it if Mac OS 8 did this! 
>

Both ways will work, so Mac-happy people will be able to use them as they
do now, and Windows people can migrate to the Mac (as they rightfully
should!) and have it their way, too. Sticky menus are actually very nice to
have at times, such as when using your PowerBook. 

Edward Voas
Human Interface Technologies
Apple Computer, Inc.

From: bates...@tandem.com (Andy Bates)
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Sticky menus?
Date: 1996/06/27
Message-ID: <bates_andy-2706961107240001@news.tandem.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 162412564
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> <ADF7518A-2B1DA@204.167.109.214>
organization: Tandem Computers
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <ADF7518...@204.167.109.214>, "Edward Voas"
<ev...@apple.com> wrote:

> In article <>, "Andy Bates" <bates...@tandem.com> wrote:
>
> >Now, first of all, I assume this is in response to all the Windows users
> >who whine about, "How come the Mac menus don't stay down when you click
> >them??!?" That's fine...as long as it doesn't change the current operation
> >of the menus. For example, I know that you can click and pull down a
> >Windows menu, and let go to make the selection, just like the Mac. But if
> >you click and hold, then let go later, the menu stays up. I would despise
> >it if Mac OS 8 did this! 
> 
> Both ways will work, so Mac-happy people will be able to use them as they
> do now, and Windows people can migrate to the Mac (as they rightfully
> should!) and have it their way, too. Sticky menus are actually very nice to
> have at times, such as when using your PowerBook. 
> 
> Edward Voas
> Human Interface Technologies
> Apple Computer, Inc.

and in article <>, "Dan Hughes" <dhu...@net.microserve.com> wrote:

> The shareware extension Sticky Click does exactly this, and while it does
> offer the Windows-esque way of dealing with menus, it can also revert back
> to the normal MacOS way of doing things by simply ignoring the fact that
> you can click once and have the menu "stick". I'm pretty sure Apple will
> do something very similiar with MacOS 8.

Okay, I understand that both sets of users will be able to use it their
own way, but I still have one problem: in Windows, I try to use menus like
the Mac. I click-hold, then drag to my selection. However, I often just
want to look at the menu items, in which case I click-hold, look at the
menu, and release with the mouse still on the title bar. In this case, the
menu stays down! Is there any way that Mac OS 8 can distinguish between a
click-release to pop down a menu, and a click-hold, pause, release to just
look at its contents? Like, say, if there is more than a half-second
between the click and the release? If this could be implemented (or, if
Sticky Menus could be turned off), that would be great.


Thanks,

Andy Bates.

From: ro...@apple.com (Arlo Rose)
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Sticky menus?
Date: 1996/06/27
Message-ID: <rose2-2706962336100001@arlo.vip.best.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 162519583
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<ADF7518A-2B1DA@204.167.109.214> <bates_andy-2706961107240001@news.tandem.com>
organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <bates_andy-27...@news.tandem.com>,
bates...@tandem.com (Andy Bates) wrote:

> Is there any way that Mac OS 8 can distinguish between a
> click-release to pop down a menu, and a click-hold, pause, release to just
> look at its contents? Like, say, if there is more than a half-second
> between the click and the release? If this could be implemented (or, if
> Sticky Menus could be turned off), that would be great.

That's how I designed it... but 1/3rd of a second is what the cut off is.

Cheers,
Arlo Rose

_____________________________________________________________________
Apple Computer, Inc.                                  ro...@apple.com
Human Interface Design Center                    ar...@rcontinuum.com

From: scho...@ee.gatech.edu (David C. Schooley)
Subject: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Espy
Date: 1996/06/28
Message-ID: <schooley-2806960817090001@10.0.2.15>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 162555586
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<ADF7518A-2B1DA@204.167.109.214> <bates_andy-2706961107240001@news.tandem.com> 
<rose2-2706962336100001@arlo.vip.best.com>
organization: Georgia Tech Electric Power Jocks
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system

Will the system fonts in Copland be anti-aliased?

I ask because one of the things I don't like about Espy is that the
jaggies from the 72dpi resolution show up much more with this font than
with Chicago and Geneva.

The preliminary MacOS8 IM:HIG volume sort of implies that they will be,
since it states that the fonts will be dithered on B&W monitors.

later,

---Dave---
========================================================================
David C. Schooley                         |
Ph.D. in progress                         |  "Be Sweet"  
Georgia Tech Electric Power               |     
email: scho...@ee.gatech.edu             |     --- Lewis Grizzard's mom
http://www.ee.gatech.edu/users/schooley/  |

From: ste...@cnct.com (Just Steve)
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Espy
Date: 1996/06/29
Message-ID: <steveg-2906960010370001@news.cnct.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 162713033
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<ADF7518A-2B1DA@204.167.109.214> <bates_andy-2706961107240001@news.tandem.com> 
<rose2-2706962336100001@arlo.vip.best.com> <schooley-2806960817090001@10.0.2.15>
organization: Organization? What's that?
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <schooley-280...@10.0.2.15>, scho...@ee.gatech.edu
(David C. Schooley) wrote:
>Will the system fonts in Copland be anti-aliased?
>I ask because one of the things I don't like about Espy is that the
>jaggies from the 72dpi resolution show up much more with this font than
>with Chicago and Geneva.
>The preliminary MacOS8 IM:HIG volume sort of implies that they will be,
>since it states that the fonts will be dithered on B&W monitors.

Huh? An anti-aliased screen font? Not likely! And what do you mean by
"dithered fonts"? No fonts are dithered (unless they're made into art and
worked on with Photoshop or something)!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      ste...@cnct.com -=> http://earth.cnct.com/home/steveg/index.html
       Iomega Zip FAQ -=> http://earth.cnct.com/home/steveg/iomega.html
 Steve's Trading Post -=> http://earth.cnct.com/home/steveg/trading.html
 Ferret is Latin for "little fur thief".  "Little fuzzy fearless klutz
 that hides valuables" apparently takes too long to say in Latin.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: scho...@ee.gatech.edu (David C. Schooley)
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Espy
Date: 1996/06/29
Message-ID: <schooley-2906961615090001@10.0.2.15>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 162817625
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<ADF7518A-2B1DA@204.167.109.214> <bates_andy-2706961107240001@news.tandem.com> 
<rose2-2706962336100001@arlo.vip.best.com> 
<schooley-2806960817090001@10.0.2.15> <steveg-2906960010370001@news.cnct.com>
organization: Georgia Tech Electric Power Jocks
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <steveg-2906...@news.cnct.com>, ste...@cnct.com (Just
Steve) wrote:

> In article <schooley-280...@10.0.2.15>, scho...@ee.gatech.edu
> (David C. Schooley) wrote:
> >Will the system fonts in Copland be anti-aliased?
> >I ask because one of the things I don't like about Espy is that the
> >jaggies from the 72dpi resolution show up much more with this font than
> >with Chicago and Geneva.
> >The preliminary MacOS8 IM:HIG volume sort of implies that they will be,
> >since it states that the fonts will be dithered on B&W monitors.
> 
> Huh? An anti-aliased screen font? Not likely! And what do you mean by
> "dithered fonts"? No fonts are dithered (unless they're made into art and
> worked on with Photoshop or something)!
> 


From the  "Human Interface Guidelines for Mac OS 8", preliminary draft, page 32:
"All system fonts print well at 300 dpi and 600 dpi. The big system font
is a bold-like font that dithers on a black-and-white monitor so that it
is readable."

Something is obviously different with these fonts than the Espy we've seen
in Apple Guide, etc...  Hence the question.

later,

---Dave---
========================================================================
David C. Schooley                         |
Ph.D. in progress                         |  "Be Sweet"  
Georgia Tech Electric Power               |     
email: scho...@ee.gatech.edu             |     --- Lewis Grizzard's mom
http://www.ee.gatech.edu/users/schooley/  |

From: ro...@apple.com (Arlo Rose)
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Espy
Date: 1996/06/29
Message-ID: <rose2-2906961506470001@arlo.vip.best.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 162831222
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<ADF7518A-2B1DA@204.167.109.214> <bates_andy-2706961107240001@news.tandem.com> 
<rose2-2706962336100001@arlo.vip.best.com> 
<schooley-2806960817090001@10.0.2.15> <steveg-2906960010370001@news.cnct.com> 
<schooley-2906961615090001@10.0.2.15>
organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <schooley-290...@10.0.2.15>, scho...@ee.gatech.edu
(David C. Schooley) wrote:

> Something is obviously different with these fonts than the Espy we've seen
> in Apple Guide, etc...  Hence the question.

Yeah, they're TrueType fonts, not bitmaps.

Cheers,
Arlo Rose

_____________________________________________________________________
Apple Computer, Inc.                                  ro...@apple.com
Human Interface Design Center                    ar...@rcontinuum.com

From: me...@pobox.com (mathew)
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Espy
Date: 1996/06/30
Message-ID: <4r6lcg$9t3@snotra.harlequin.co.uk>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 162970139
sender: me...@harlequin.co.uk
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<rose2-2706962336100001@arlo.vip.best.com> 
<schooley-2806960817090001@10.0.2.15> 
<steveg-2906960010370001@news.cnct.com>
organization: Otter Obsessives Anonymous
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system


In article <steveg-2906...@news.cnct.com>,
Just Steve <ste...@cnct.com> wrote:
>Huh? An anti-aliased screen font? Not likely!

Why not?  MacOS supports colour and greyscale bitmap fonts.  I've
often wondered why nobody's produced anti-aliased versions of the
standard screen fonts.

I've seen a version of Chicago which fades vertically to grey, but
that's not quite as useful...


mathew
-- 
me...@pobox.com     http://www.pobox.com/~meta/
Wanted: Digital CD copy of "Plunderphonics" CD
      think globally - declare locally

From: ro...@apple.com (Arlo Rose)
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Espy
Date: 1996/06/30
Message-ID: <rose2-3006961828580001@arlo.vip.best.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 163017159
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<rose2-2706962336100001@arlo.vip.best.com> 
<schooley-2806960817090001@10.0.2.15> 
<steveg-2906960010370001@news.cnct.com> 
<4r6lcg$9t3@snotra.harlequin.co.uk>
organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system


In article <4r6lcg$9...@snotra.harlequin.co.uk>, me...@pobox.com (mathew) wrote:

> >Huh? An anti-aliased screen font? Not likely!
> 
> Why not?  MacOS supports colour and greyscale bitmap fonts.  I've
> often wondered why nobody's produced anti-aliased versions of the
> standard screen fonts.
> 
> I've seen a version of Chicago which fades vertically to grey, but
> that's not quite as useful...

If you use Now Menus in concert with Greg Landweber's SmoothType, you can
have anti-aliased screen fonts now.


Cheers,
Arlo Rose

_____________________________________________________________________
Apple Computer, Inc.                                  ro...@apple.com
Human Interface Design Center                    ar...@rcontinuum.com

From: lhe...@utdallas.edu (Lee Henderson)
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Sticky menus?
Date: 1996/07/01
Message-ID: <lhender-0107961305040001@dal21-28.ppp.iadfw.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 163131920
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> <ADF7518A-2B1DA@204.167.109.214>
organization: University of Texas at Dallas
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system


> Both ways will work, so Mac-happy people will be able to use them as they
> do now, and Windows people can migrate to the Mac (as they rightfully
> should!) and have it their way, too. Sticky menus are actually very nice to
> have at times, such as when using your PowerBook. 
> 
> Edward Voas
> Human Interface Technologies
> Apple Computer, Inc.

The question is, will there be an ACTUAL control somewhere to turn off
this sticky menu stuff.  Lots of us do find them annoying, but its find
and dandy to equip the MacOS with the ability to do it, just don't make it
mandatory.

No matter how well you design the UI on this to seem to make both types of
users happy with it, you had better include classic-mode operation
somewhere.

Also, on the matter of classic MacOS stuff, I would hope that there would
be a appearnance manager theme SHIPPED with 8 for the standard System 7
appearance.  It really is not akin to the difference between Win 3.1 and
Win 95.  The system 7 appearance is very, very nice to use.

-- 
lhe...@utdallas.edu

From: ager...@teleport.com (Andrew Gerweck)
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Sticky menus?
Date: 1996/07/02
Message-ID: <agerweck-0207960855340001@news.teleport.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 163303622
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<ADF7518A-2B1DA@204.167.109.214> <lhender-0107961305040001@dal21-28.ppp.iadfw.net>
content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
organization: Gerweck Consulting
mime-version: 1.0
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system



>Also, on the matter of classic MacOS stuff, I would hope that there would
>be a appearnance manager theme SHIPPED with 8 for the standard System 7
>appearance.  It really is not akin to the difference between Win 3.1 and
>Win 95.  The system 7 appearance is very, very nice to use.

Have you seen the new appearance made available by Aaron?  It is basically
the same as the sys. 7 appearance, but has 3-D effects and looks in
general better (in my opinion).  I can't see a reason why anybody would
choose the original 7 look over the similar but greatly improved Default
theme from Copland.

From: sco...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca)
Subject: Re: Mac OS 8 (Copland) -- Sticky menus?
Date: 1996/07/07
Message-ID: <4rphta$gq@newz.oit.unc.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 164208895
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<ADF7518A-2B1DA@204.167.109.214> 
<lhender-0107961305040001@dal21-28.ppp.iadfw.net> 
<agerweck-0207960855340001@news.teleport.com>
organization: The Jack Voigt Fan Club
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system


In article <agerweck-020...@news.teleport.com>,
Andrew Gerweck <ager...@teleport.com> wrote:

\ Have you seen the new appearance made available by Aaron?  It is basically
\ the same as the sys. 7 appearance, but has 3-D effects and looks in
\ general better (in my opinion).  I can't see a reason why anybody would
\ choose the original 7 look over the similar but greatly improved Default
\ theme from Copland.

Because the default "3-D" folders are ugly as all hell, as are the 3-D
renditions of computers, hard drives, and so forth.

Computer screens are, for now, two-dimensional.  The System 7 icons 
are designed to provide recognizable folders, computers, hard drives, 
and so on in a two-dimensional environment.  The "3-D" icons are much 
less recognizable as what they're supposed to be.

Every now and then I download a version of Aaron and install it to see
how it's looking and if it's as ugly as I remember.  Then I de-install
it and throw it away because I can't stand the folder icons.

Needless to say, I'm not a registered user.  (No reflection on 
Greg--Aaron is a fine piece of programming, but the "artist" who made 
up the Copland default theme has no clue about designing icons for a 
computer screen.)

D.
--
* The Minstrel in the Gallery        http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/  *
* D. A. Scocca (sco...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu)          "Heteroskedastic" *
* "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy.  My love can only      *
*    release in her the capacity to be happy."     --J. Barnes       *

From: pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Default Appearance of Mac OS 8 Ugly?
Date: 1996/07/09
Message-ID: <petrichDu9pAB.B00@netcom.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 167363778
sender: pet...@netcom14.netcom.com
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<lhender-0107961305040001@dal21-28.ppp.iadfw.net> 
<agerweck-0207960855340001@news.teleport.com> <4rphta$gq@newz.oit.unc.edu>
organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system


In article <4rphta$g...@newz.oit.unc.edu>,
Dave Scocca <sco...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu> wrote:
>In article <agerweck-020...@news.teleport.com>,
>Andrew Gerweck <ager...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>\ Have you seen the new appearance made available by Aaron?  ...

>Because the default "3-D" folders are ugly as all hell, as are the 3-D
>renditions of computers, hard drives, and so forth.

	Actually, I like the rendition of the hard disks and the bare 
folders. I mean bare ones, because those with symbols don't have their 
symbols fitting into the appearance of the folders. What I mean is that 
the symbols have a flat-on-their-side look, while the folders do not, 
unlike the System-7 ones. So I hope it will be easy to create a 
flat-on-its-side look for the folders in MacOS 8, so as to avoid this 
visual inconsistency.

>Computer screens are, for now, two-dimensional.  The System 7 icons 
>are designed to provide recognizable folders, computers, hard drives, 
>and so on in a two-dimensional environment.  The "3-D" icons are much 
>less recognizable as what they're supposed to be.

	That's a *totally* childish objection to making something 
displayed look 3D.

	The fact is, our eyes (at least in isolation :-) give a view that 
is as 2D as any computer screen.

	However, I do find a 3D appearance visually pleasing, and for 
that purpose, I have installed Greg's Buttons and Church Windows. For the 
latter, I like the Motif plug-in the best, but with the top window having 
dark text on a light background and the others having light text on a 
dark background. It's easy to find the top window when it's the only one 
with a light-colored frame.

	Hmmmm... does Dair Grant, who wrote Church Windows, now have a
BeOS plug-in? 

-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
pet...@netcom.com			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html

From: slo...@mailhost.ael.com (scott j lopez)
Subject: Re: Default Appearance of Mac OS 8 Ugly?
Date: 1996/07/09
Message-ID: <4rtmcb$n4s@mailhost.ael.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 167381636
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<lhender-0107961305040001@dal21-28.ppp.iadfw.net> 
<agerweck-0207960855340001@news.teleport.com> <4rphta$gq@newz.oit.unc.edu> 
<petrichDu9pAB.B00@netcom.com>
organization: AEL Industries, Inc., Lansdale, PA
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system


Actually the only complaint I have about 3-d folder icons is there is much
less of a target to click on. A flat style folder icon is a large rectangle
and pretty easy to hit. The 3-d one is a trapazoidish shape and a smaller
target.

From: ro...@apple.com (Arlo Rose)
Subject: Re: Default Appearance of Mac OS 8 Ugly?
Date: 1996/07/09
Message-ID: <rose2-0907960921160001@arlo.vip.best.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 167398716
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<lhender-0107961305040001@dal21-28.ppp.iadfw.net> 
<agerweck-0207960855340001@news.teleport.com> 
<4rphta$gq@newz.oit.unc.edu> <petrichDu9pAB.B00@netcom.com> 
<4rtmcb$n4s@mailhost.ael.com>
organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system


In article <4rtmcb$n...@mailhost.ael.com>, slo...@mailhost.ael.com (scott j
lopez) wrote:

> Actually the only complaint I have about 3-d folder icons is there is much
> less of a target to click on. A flat style folder icon is a large rectangle
> and pretty easy to hit. The 3-d one is a trapazoidish shape and a smaller
> target.

You must have a hell of a time with the close box then. :-)


Cheers,
Arlo

_____________________________________________________________________
Apple Computer, Inc.                                  ro...@apple.com
Human Interface Design Center                    ar...@rcontinuum.com

From: slo...@mailhost.ael.com (scott j lopez)
Subject: Re: Default Appearance of Mac OS 8 Ugly?
Date: 1996/07/09
Message-ID: <4ru216$rh5@mailhost.ael.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 167408522
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<lhender-0107961305040001@dal21-28.ppp.iadfw.net> 
<agerweck-0207960855340001@news.teleport.com> <4rphta$gq@newz.oit.unc.edu> 
<petrichDu9pAB.B00@netcom.com> <4rtmcb$n4s@mailhost.ael.com> 
<rose2-0907960921160001@arlo.vip.best.com>
organization: AEL Industries, Inc., Lansdale, PA
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system


In <rose2-09079...@arlo.vip.best.com> Arlo Rose (ro...@apple.com) wrote:
> You must have a hell of a time with the close box then. :-)

No. But when you're rushing through the finder and folders it's a lot easier
to hit a big target than a little one. 3d folders: Looks neat, less functional.

From: ro...@apple.com (Arlo Rose)
Subject: Re: Default Appearance of Mac OS 8 Ugly?
Date: 1996/07/09
Message-ID: <rose2-0907962216060001@arlo.vip.best.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 167521976
references: <bates_andy-2606961047590001@gazette.tandem.com> 
<lhender-0107961305040001@dal21-28.ppp.iadfw.net> 
<agerweck-0207960855340001@news.teleport.com> <4rphta$gq@newz.oit.unc.edu> 
<petrichDu9pAB.B00@netcom.com> <4rtmcb$n4s@mailhost.ael.com> 
<rose2-0907960921160001@arlo.vip.best.com> <4ru216$rh5@mailhost.ael.com>
organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system


In article <4ru216$r...@mailhost.ael.com>, slo...@mailhost.ael.com (scott j
lopez) wrote:

> But when you're rushing through the finder and folders it's a lot easier
> to hit a big target than a little one. 3d folders: Looks neat, less
> functional.

There are 612 pixels of full space in the new icons. If you have a custom
placard on one, it takes up 682 pixels of space. The traditional folder
takes up 689 pixels. That's only 77 pixels difference on the plain folder.
That's not that much. (9 * 9) - 4

I would hardly constitute that as being less functional, sorry.


Cheers,
Arlo Rose

_____________________________________________________________________
Apple Computer, Inc.                                  ro...@apple.com
Human Interface Design Center                    ar...@rcontinuum.com

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