Hi there

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Approved-By:  Jay Maynard <jmaynard@CONMICRO.CX>
Message-ID:  <20020415200122.C6653@thebrain.conmicro.cx>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:01:22 -0500
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.cx>
Subject:      Hi there...

(I get 350 emails a day. Why am I joining another list?!)

Hi there. I guess I should join this list, so I can see what's going on in
another segment of the S/390 world...especially since Hercules, the project
I spend most of my free time on, seems to be a regular topic of discussion
here.

I've looked back through the archives a bit, after getting pointed at the
redbook discussion. I have no idea why IBM did anything; they certainly
haven't told me.

For the record, the Hercules list is uncensored. Phil Payne's access was set
to moderated (he can still post, if approved by a list moderator) because he
was disrupting the list despite repeated requests from a large number of
list members to lay off on his continual FUD. He was asked to take it to a
list created especially for the purpose, and did not.

As for Fish's flame, which by now has gained a degree of notoriety: I was
and am uncomfortable with the language he used, but I can certainly
understand why he felt pushed to that extreme. It is still in the Yahoo!
Groups hercules-390 list archives because I have not received a request to
remove it; if that request were to come, but not from Fish, I haven't
decided what I'd do about it.

Now, on to the claims of Hercules violating intellectual property rights of
IBM...

There are four kinds of intellectual property in the US: trademark,
copyright, trade secret, and patent. Trademarks are not violated if used to
identify the owner's products and acknowledged. Hercules does not violate
any of IBM's (or anyone else's) trademarks that I'm aware of, and can and
will correct any such violation if advised of it. Copyrights are not being
violated because we do not distribute any IBM code that has been
copyrighted. (The code available from http://www.cbttape.org is all in the 
public domain.) Trade secrets are only protected as long as they are
actually secret; reverse engineering by a party not contractually bound to
keep the secret destroys that status and removes any such protection.

This leaves only patents. In the US, only a patent attorney is, by law,
competent to read patents and render an opinion on whether a patent is being
infringed. I am not a patent attorney. Therefore, I do not and have not read
any patent which may be claimed to be infringed. It is IBM's responsibility
to notify me (or any other Hercules developer; as the host of the web site
and release coordinator for the package, as well as the most visible
developer actually in the United States, I believe I am the logical
recipient of such notification) of any infringement and demand that such
infringement cease. Until that point, I have no responsibility to act based
on others' allegations and hearsay. I am easy to find, as my home address
and telephone number are posted on my home page.

Until I hear from IBM directly, I refuse to worry about the issue.

Finally, I do note Alan Cox's comments on the advisability of IBM shutting
down Hercules, and echo them. I believe that news would spread rapidly among
the Open Source[1] community, and would cause IBM immeasurable damage; I
would feel no compulsion to keep anything of that nature secret, either.

Fortunately, I also believe IBM understands this. Between that, and their
public comments to Eric Raymond and Bruce Perens about not enforcing their
patents against Open Source developers, I doubt that any of the dire
predictions about IBM sending a cease and desist notice for Hercules will
actually come to pass.

Now that I've gotten all that out of the way...can anyone help me get Red
Hat 7.2 running on Hercules? I can't get the installer to actually install.
:-)

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Approved-By:  "Post, Mark K" <mark.post@EDS.COM>
Message-ID:  <564DE4477544D411AD2C00508BDF0B6A0C9DD180@usahm018.exmi01.exch.eds.com>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 23:50:20 -0400
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         "Post, Mark K" <mark.post@eds.com>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...

Probably.  I think we've helped just about everyone else who wanted to do it
to succeed.  Exactly what problems are you seeing, and how are you trying to
install it?

Mark Post

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Maynard [mailto:jmaynard@conmicro.cx]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:01 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Hi there...

-snip-

Now that I've gotten all that out of the way...can anyone help me get Red
Hat 7.2 running on Hercules? I can't get the installer to actually install.
:-)

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Approved-By:  Craig Vernon <cvernon@AU1.IBM.COM>
Message-ID:  <OFC16CE5E5.8E43C4B6-ONCA256B9D.00117E11@au.ibm.com>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:56:57 +1000
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Craig Vernon <cvernon@au1.ibm.com>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...

John,

I am not a licensed or practising attorney but I do have legal
qualifications, so I can render an opinion but not for a fee (though I can
for wage to my employer?? because that falls under self representation)!
This is my own personal opinion and I do not purport to represent anyone
else.

I think you are right, all this talk about IBM cracking down on Hercules,
speaking plainly, sounds like bullshit to me. As you suggest the only
likely claim of any infringement would be under patent law. As copyright
would require an actual copying of code (be it source or object) no claim
would succeed. Copyright protects the "written expression" not the ideas or
concepts embedded in it. Ideas are basically free. Patent law comes closest
to protecting an idea insofar as it will protect a function or an idea as
implemented in an invention or process. While a function might be
duplicated by a later invention, if it goes beyond the original invention
and adds its own novel or inventive function, it will be considered a new
invention in its own right. On this basis a patent would be granted, if one
were applied for (so long as it were not already public - the biggest
stumbling block to obtaining a patent). People often say that extra amount
of ingenuity must be 10% or more which makes it sound like an objective
measure, but I'd like to see how you measure ingenuity without getting
subjective about it!

Anyway, I can only guess that Hercules goes quite beyond any of the
specific patents that IBM holds related to 360/370/390/ hardware (and/or
microcode), since it emulates that hardware on an entirely different
hardware platform, and, I suspect, would satisfy the required extra
inventive step to be considered a new and novel invention in its own right.
Just MHO and definitely not IBM's. Besides unless there is some perceived
loss of money or market why would anyone bother anyway? If IBM did have a
P/390 product and various follow on products and in my experience it was
never a big market, that is why it was handed over to IBM's business
partners. I think you can rest easy. The internet is great for propagation
of fictions, rumours and sometimes even facts.

Good luck with the RH installer, I had some problems initially but just
reloaded it and it went smoothly.

Regards, Craig

+61-2-9354-7283 tel +61-2-9354-7797 fax
Craig Vernon B.App.Sc. LL.B.
IBM Support Centre FB41
55 Coonara Ave
West Pennant Hills 2125
Sydney NSW Australia
Visit us at http://www.ibm.com/services/au/its 

"You can not find a solution using the same thinking that created the
problem." - Albert EInstein

If received in error please delete and notify the sender immediately. No
other use permitted. Neither confidentiality, privilege nor copyright
waived.

                      Jay Maynard
                      <jmaynard@conmicr        To:       LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
                      o.cx>                    cc:
                      Sent by: Linux on        Subject:  Hi there...
                      390 Port
                      <LINUX-390@VM.MAR
                      IST.EDU>

                      16/04/2002 11:01
                      AM
                      Please respond to
                      Linux on 390 Port

(I get 350 emails a day. Why am I joining another list?!)

Hi there. I guess I should join this list, so I can see what's going on in
another segment of the S/390 world...especially since Hercules, the project
I spend most of my free time on, seems to be a regular topic of discussion
here.

I've looked back through the archives a bit, after getting pointed at the
redbook discussion. I have no idea why IBM did anything; they certainly
haven't told me.

For the record, the Hercules list is uncensored. Phil Payne's access was
set
to moderated (he can still post, if approved by a list moderator) because
he
was disrupting the list despite repeated requests from a large number of
list members to lay off on his continual FUD. He was asked to take it to a
list created especially for the purpose, and did not.

As for Fish's flame, which by now has gained a degree of notoriety: I was
and am uncomfortable with the language he used, but I can certainly
understand why he felt pushed to that extreme. It is still in the Yahoo!
Groups hercules-390 list archives because I have not received a request to
remove it; if that request were to come, but not from Fish, I haven't
decided what I'd do about it.

Now, on to the claims of Hercules violating intellectual property rights of
IBM...

There are four kinds of intellectual property in the US: trademark,
copyright, trade secret, and patent. Trademarks are not violated if used to
identify the owner's products and acknowledged. Hercules does not violate
any of IBM's (or anyone else's) trademarks that I'm aware of, and can and
will correct any such violation if advised of it. Copyrights are not being
violated because we do not distribute any IBM code that has been
copyrighted. (The code available from http://www.cbttape.org is all in the 
public domain.) Trade secrets are only protected as long as they are
actually secret; reverse engineering by a party not contractually bound to
keep the secret destroys that status and removes any such protection.

This leaves only patents. In the US, only a patent attorney is, by law,
competent to read patents and render an opinion on whether a patent is
being
infringed. I am not a patent attorney. Therefore, I do not and have not
read
any patent which may be claimed to be infringed. It is IBM's responsibility
to notify me (or any other Hercules developer; as the host of the web site
and release coordinator for the package, as well as the most visible
developer actually in the United States, I believe I am the logical
recipient of such notification) of any infringement and demand that such
infringement cease. Until that point, I have no responsibility to act based
on others' allegations and hearsay. I am easy to find, as my home address
and telephone number are posted on my home page.

Until I hear from IBM directly, I refuse to worry about the issue.

Finally, I do note Alan Cox's comments on the advisability of IBM shutting
down Hercules, and echo them. I believe that news would spread rapidly
among
the Open Source[1] community, and would cause IBM immeasurable damage; I
would feel no compulsion to keep anything of that nature secret, either.

Fortunately, I also believe IBM understands this. Between that, and their
public comments to Eric Raymond and Bruce Perens about not enforcing their
patents against Open Source developers, I doubt that any of the dire
predictions about IBM sending a cease and desist notice for Hercules will
actually come to pass.

Now that I've gotten all that out of the way...can anyone help me get Red
Hat 7.2 running on Hercules? I can't get the installer to actually install.
:-)

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Importance: Normal
Approved-By:  Gregg C Levine <hansolofalcon@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Message-ID:  <000101c1e4fc$20d97be0$4260580c@who>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:06:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Gregg C Levine <hansolofalcon@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  <OFC16CE5E5.8E43C4B6-ONCA256B9D.00117E11@au.ibm.com>
 
Hello from Gregg C Levine writing for myself
Nice post Craig, except for one problem. His name is Jay, not John. But
I won't stun you over it. And nice to see you here, Jay, anyway.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon@worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."=A0 Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
 
 
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of 
> Craig Vernon
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 11:57 PM
> To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
> Subject: Re: Hi there...
>=20
> John,
>=20
> I am not a licensed or practising attorney but I do have legal
> qualifications, so I can render an opinion but not for a fee (though I
can
> for wage to my employer?? because that falls under self
representation)!
> This is my own personal opinion and I do not purport to represent
anyone
> else.
>=20
> I think you are right, all this talk about IBM cracking down on
Hercules,
> speaking plainly, sounds like bullshit to me. As you suggest the only
> likely claim of any infringement would be under patent law. As
copyright
> would require an actual copying of code (be it source or object) no
claim
> would succeed. Copyright protects the "written expression" not the
ideas or
> concepts embedded in it. Ideas are basically free. Patent law comes
closest
> to protecting an idea insofar as it will protect a function or an idea
as
> implemented in an invention or process. While a function might be
> duplicated by a later invention, if it goes beyond the original
invention
> and adds its own novel or inventive function, it will be considered a
new
> invention in its own right. On this basis a patent would be granted,
if one
> were applied for (so long as it were not already public - the biggest
> stumbling block to obtaining a patent). People often say that extra
amount
> of ingenuity must be 10% or more which makes it sound like an
objective
> measure, but I'd like to see how you measure ingenuity without getting
> subjective about it!
>=20
> Anyway, I can only guess that Hercules goes quite beyond any of the
> specific patents that IBM holds related to 360/370/390/ hardware
(and/or
> microcode), since it emulates that hardware on an entirely different
> hardware platform, and, I suspect, would satisfy the required extra
> inventive step to be considered a new and novel invention in its own
right.
> Just MHO and definitely not IBM's. Besides unless there is some
perceived
> loss of money or market why would anyone bother anyway? If IBM did
have a
> P/390 product and various follow on products and in my experience it
was
> never a big market, that is why it was handed over to IBM's business
> partners. I think you can rest easy. The internet is great for
propagation
> of fictions, rumours and sometimes even facts.
>=20
> Good luck with the RH installer, I had some problems initially but
just
> reloaded it and it went smoothly.
>=20
> Regards, Craig
>=20
> +61-2-9354-7283 tel +61-2-9354-7797 fax
> Craig Vernon B.App.Sc. LL.B.
> IBM Support Centre FB41
> 55 Coonara Ave
> West Pennant Hills 2125
> Sydney NSW Australia
> Visit us at http://www.ibm.com/services/au/its 
>=20
> "You can not find a solution using the same thinking that created the
> problem." - Albert EInstein
>=20
> If received in error please delete and notify the sender immediately.
No
> other use permitted. Neither confidentiality, privilege nor copyright
> waived.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>                       Jay Maynard
>                       <jmaynard@conmicr        To:
LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
>                       o.cx>                    cc:
>                       Sent by: Linux on        Subject:  Hi there...
>                       390 Port
>                       <LINUX-390@VM.MAR
>                       IST.EDU>
>=20
>=20
>                       16/04/2002 11:01
>                       AM
>                       Please respond to
>                       Linux on 390 Port
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> (I get 350 emails a day. Why am I joining another list?!)
>=20
> Hi there. I guess I should join this list, so I can see what's going
on in
> another segment of the S/390 world...especially since Hercules, the
project
> I spend most of my free time on, seems to be a regular topic of
discussion
> here.
>=20
> I've looked back through the archives a bit, after getting pointed at
the
> redbook discussion. I have no idea why IBM did anything; they
certainly
> haven't told me.
>=20
> For the record, the Hercules list is uncensored. Phil Payne's access
was
> set
> to moderated (he can still post, if approved by a list moderator)
because
> he
> was disrupting the list despite repeated requests from a large number
of
> list members to lay off on his continual FUD. He was asked to take it
to a
> list created especially for the purpose, and did not.
>=20
> As for Fish's flame, which by now has gained a degree of notoriety: I
was
> and am uncomfortable with the language he used, but I can certainly
> understand why he felt pushed to that extreme. It is still in the
Yahoo!
> Groups hercules-390 list archives because I have not received a
request to
> remove it; if that request were to come, but not from Fish, I haven't
> decided what I'd do about it.
>=20
> Now, on to the claims of Hercules violating intellectual property
rights of
> IBM...
>=20
> There are four kinds of intellectual property in the US: trademark,
> copyright, trade secret, and patent. Trademarks are not violated if
used to
> identify the owner's products and acknowledged. Hercules does not
violate
> any of IBM's (or anyone else's) trademarks that I'm aware of, and can
and
> will correct any such violation if advised of it. Copyrights are not
being
> violated because we do not distribute any IBM code that has been
> copyrighted. (The code available from http://www.cbttape.org is all in 
the
> public domain.) Trade secrets are only protected as long as they are
> actually secret; reverse engineering by a party not contractually
bound to
> keep the secret destroys that status and removes any such protection.
>=20
> This leaves only patents. In the US, only a patent attorney is, by
law,
> competent to read patents and render an opinion on whether a patent is
> being
> infringed. I am not a patent attorney. Therefore, I do not and have
not
> read
> any patent which may be claimed to be infringed. It is IBM's
responsibility
> to notify me (or any other Hercules developer; as the host of the web
site
> and release coordinator for the package, as well as the most visible
> developer actually in the United States, I believe I am the logical
> recipient of such notification) of any infringement and demand that
such
> infringement cease. Until that point, I have no responsibility to act
based
> on others' allegations and hearsay. I am easy to find, as my home
address
> and telephone number are posted on my home page.
>=20
> Until I hear from IBM directly, I refuse to worry about the issue.
>=20
> Finally, I do note Alan Cox's comments on the advisability of IBM
shutting
> down Hercules, and echo them. I believe that news would spread rapidly
> among
> the Open Source[1] community, and would cause IBM immeasurable damage;
I
> would feel no compulsion to keep anything of that nature secret,
either.
>=20
> Fortunately, I also believe IBM understands this. Between that, and
their
> public comments to Eric Raymond and Bruce Perens about not enforcing
their
> patents against Open Source developers, I doubt that any of the dire
> predictions about IBM sending a cease and desist notice for Hercules
will
> actually come to pass.
>=20
> Now that I've gotten all that out of the way...can anyone help me get
Red
> Hat 7.2 running on Hercules? I can't get the installer to actually
install.
> :-)

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Approved-By:  Craig Vernon <cvernon@AU1.IBM.COM>
Message-ID:  <OFD87B0062.5EDF1DEA-ONCA256B9D.00197E05@au.ibm.com>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:39:28 +1000
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Craig Vernon <cvernon@au1.ibm.com>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
 
Oops, sorry Jay.
 
Regards, Craig
 
 
 
 
                                                                       =
                                                                   =20
                      Gregg C Levine                                   =
                                                                   =20
                      <hansolofalcon@worldn        To:       LINUX-390@=
VM.MARIST.EDU                                                      =20
                      et.att.net>                  cc:                 =
                                                                   =20
                      Sent by: Linux on 390        Subject:  Re: Hi the=
re...                                                              =20
                      Port                                             =
                                                                   =20
                      <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.                            =
                                                                   =20
                      EDU>                                             =
                                                                   =20
                                                                       =
                                                                   =20
                                                                       =
                                                                   =20
                      16/04/2002 02:06 PM                              =
                                                                   =20
                      Please respond to                                =
                                                                   =20
                      Linux on 390 Port                                =
                                                                   =20
                                                                       =
                                                                   =20
                                                                       =
                                                                   =20
 
 
 
Hello from Gregg C Levine writing for myself
Nice post Craig, except for one problem. His name is Jay, not John. But=
 
I won't stun you over it. And nice to see you here, Jay, anyway.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon@worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."=A0 Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
 
 
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of= 
 
> Craig Vernon
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 11:57 PM
> To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
> Subject: Re: Hi there...
>
> John,
>
> I am not a licensed or practising attorney but I do have legal
> qualifications, so I can render an opinion but not for a fee (though =
I
can
> for wage to my employer?? because that falls under self
representation)!
> This is my own personal opinion and I do not purport to represent
anyone
> else.
>
> I think you are right, all this talk about IBM cracking down on
Hercules,
> speaking plainly, sounds like bullshit to me. As you suggest the only=
 
> likely claim of any infringement would be under patent law. As
copyright
> would require an actual copying of code (be it source or object) no
claim
> would succeed. Copyright protects the "written expression" not the
ideas or
> concepts embedded in it. Ideas are basically free. Patent law comes
closest
> to protecting an idea insofar as it will protect a function or an ide=
a
as
> implemented in an invention or process. While a function might be
> duplicated by a later invention, if it goes beyond the original
invention
> and adds its own novel or inventive function, it will be considered a=
 
new
> invention in its own right. On this basis a patent would be granted,
if one
> were applied for (so long as it were not already public - the biggest=
 
> stumbling block to obtaining a patent). People often say that extra
amount
> of ingenuity must be 10% or more which makes it sound like an
objective
> measure, but I'd like to see how you measure ingenuity without gettin=
g
> subjective about it!
>
> Anyway, I can only guess that Hercules goes quite beyond any of the
> specific patents that IBM holds related to 360/370/390/ hardware
(and/or
> microcode), since it emulates that hardware on an entirely different
> hardware platform, and, I suspect, would satisfy the required extra
> inventive step to be considered a new and novel invention in its own
right.
> Just MHO and definitely not IBM's. Besides unless there is some
perceived
> loss of money or market why would anyone bother anyway? If IBM did
have a
> P/390 product and various follow on products and in my experience it
was
> never a big market, that is why it was handed over to IBM's business
> partners. I think you can rest easy. The internet is great for
propagation
> of fictions, rumours and sometimes even facts.
>
> Good luck with the RH installer, I had some problems initially but
just
> reloaded it and it went smoothly.
>
> Regards, Craig
>
> +61-2-9354-7283 tel +61-2-9354-7797 fax
> Craig Vernon B.App.Sc. LL.B.
> IBM Support Centre FB41
> 55 Coonara Ave
> West Pennant Hills 2125
> Sydney NSW Australia
> Visit us at http://www.ibm.com/services/au/its 
>
> "You can not find a solution using the same thinking that created the=
 
> problem." - Albert EInstein
>
> If received in error please delete and notify the sender immediately.=
 
No
> other use permitted. Neither confidentiality, privilege nor copyright=
 
> waived.
>
>
>
>                       Jay Maynard
>                       <jmaynard@conmicr        To:
LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
>                       o.cx>                    cc:
>                       Sent by: Linux on        Subject:  Hi there...
>                       390 Port
>                       <LINUX-390@VM.MAR
>                       IST.EDU>
>
>
>                       16/04/2002 11:01
>                       AM
>                       Please respond to
>                       Linux on 390 Port
>
>
>
>
>
> (I get 350 emails a day. Why am I joining another list?!)
>
> Hi there. I guess I should join this list, so I can see what's going
on in
> another segment of the S/390 world...especially since Hercules, the
project
> I spend most of my free time on, seems to be a regular topic of
discussion
> here.
>
> I've looked back through the archives a bit, after getting pointed at=
 
the
> redbook discussion. I have no idea why IBM did anything; they
certainly
> haven't told me.
>
> For the record, the Hercules list is uncensored. Phil Payne's access
was
> set
> to moderated (he can still post, if approved by a list moderator)
because
> he
> was disrupting the list despite repeated requests from a large number=
 
of
> list members to lay off on his continual FUD. He was asked to take it=
 
to a
> list created especially for the purpose, and did not.
>
> As for Fish's flame, which by now has gained a degree of notoriety: I=
 
was
> and am uncomfortable with the language he used, but I can certainly
> understand why he felt pushed to that extreme. It is still in the
Yahoo!
> Groups hercules-390 list archives because I have not received a
request to
> remove it; if that request were to come, but not from Fish, I haven't=
 
> decided what I'd do about it.
>
> Now, on to the claims of Hercules violating intellectual property
rights of
> IBM...
>
> There are four kinds of intellectual property in the US: trademark,
> copyright, trade secret, and patent. Trademarks are not violated if
used to
> identify the owner's products and acknowledged. Hercules does not
violate
> any of IBM's (or anyone else's) trademarks that I'm aware of, and can=
 
and
> will correct any such violation if advised of it. Copyrights are not
being
> violated because we do not distribute any IBM code that has been
> copyrighted. (The code available from http://www.cbttape.org is all i= 
n
the
> public domain.) Trade secrets are only protected as long as they are
> actually secret; reverse engineering by a party not contractually
bound to
> keep the secret destroys that status and removes any such protection.=
 
>
> This leaves only patents. In the US, only a patent attorney is, by
law,
> competent to read patents and render an opinion on whether a patent i=
s
> being
> infringed. I am not a patent attorney. Therefore, I do not and have
not
> read
> any patent which may be claimed to be infringed. It is IBM's
responsibility
> to notify me (or any other Hercules developer; as the host of the web=
 
site
> and release coordinator for the package, as well as the most visible
> developer actually in the United States, I believe I am the logical
> recipient of such notification) of any infringement and demand that
such
> infringement cease. Until that point, I have no responsibility to act=
 
based
> on others' allegations and hearsay. I am easy to find, as my home
address
> and telephone number are posted on my home page.
>
> Until I hear from IBM directly, I refuse to worry about the issue.
>
> Finally, I do note Alan Cox's comments on the advisability of IBM
shutting
> down Hercules, and echo them. I believe that news would spread rapidl=
y
> among
> the Open Source[1] community, and would cause IBM immeasurable damage=
;
I
> would feel no compulsion to keep anything of that nature secret,
either.
>
> Fortunately, I also believe IBM understands this. Between that, and
their
> public comments to Eric Raymond and Bruce Perens about not enforcing
their
> patents against Open Source developers, I doubt that any of the dire
> predictions about IBM sending a cease and desist notice for Hercules
will
> actually come to pass.
>
> Now that I've gotten all that out of the way...can anyone help me get=
 
Red
> Hat 7.2 running on Hercules? I can't get the installer to actually
install.
> :-)
 
 
=

References:  <20020415200122.C6653@thebrain.conmicro.cx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Approved-By:  Phil Payne <Linux@ISHAM-RESEARCH.COM>
Message-ID:  <00d101c1e519$0e0d99c0$0900a8c0@transnote>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:33:40 +0200
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...

> For the record, the Hercules list is uncensored. Phil Payne's access was set
> to moderated (he can still post, if approved by a list moderator) because he
> was disrupting the list despite repeated requests from a large number of
> list members to lay off on his continual FUD. He was asked to take it to a
> list created especially for the purpose, and did not.

I suggest you look up 'censor' an any good dictionary.  I have tried to post three times since
this ban was imposed (without even the courtesy of a note to me or a note to the Yahoo group)
and no post has go through.  I note Phil Roberts' recent attempt to get me barred from the
FLEX-ES list, too.  Seems to be a strategy.

The issue was (and is) that the status of Hercules' use of IBM intellectual property is
undetermined - simply that.  I felt that Hercules' owners were involving others in the
development of the product when all along the danger exists that IBM could assert its rights
and close the whole thing down.

> Until I hear from IBM directly, I refuse to worry about the issue.

> Fortunately, I also believe IBM understands this. Between that, and their
> public comments to Eric Raymond and Bruce Perens about not enforcing their
> patents against Open Source developers, I doubt that any of the dire
> predictions about IBM sending a cease and desist notice for Hercules will
> actually come to pass.

... not enforcing their [software] patents ...

I and many others would still like a name for this completely unsupported assertion of yours.

One of the most interesting aspects of all this is the status of an invention that is
reimplemented in a totally different technology.  Just about every major System/370 and
System/390 feature has patent protection, starting (roughly) with Cross Memory Services.  But
most are couched in terms of hardware implementation, and courts pretty well all over the
world are uneasy about patents being allowed on algorithms.  It's truly a fascinating area,
now becoming quite serious in the EMC/Hitachi case.  The fatc that Hercules' implementation of
these features is in software and not in hardware brings a fascinating aspect to bear.

--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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Approved-By:  Alan Cox <alan@LXORGUK.UKUU.ORG.UK>
Message-ID:  <E16xPPo-00084T-00@the-village.bc.nu>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:38:19 +0100
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  <00d101c1e519$0e0d99c0$0900a8c0@transnote> from "Phil Payne" at Apr 16, 2002 09:33:40 AM

> now becoming quite serious in the EMC/Hitachi case.  The fatc that Hercules'
> implementation of these features is in software and not in hardware brings
> a fascinating aspect to bear.

Patents on software algorithms apply only in a tiny number of nations. At
worst Hercules would join the vast list of software, hardware and methods
of work that are allowed everywhere in the world but the USA.

And people wonder why so many companies are pulling out of the USA, or
moving their engineering operations elsewhere..

Alan

References:  <E16xPPo-00084T-00@the-village.bc.nu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Approved-By:  Phil Payne <Linux@ISHAM-RESEARCH.COM>
Message-ID:  <019601c1e531$eb002ce0$0900a8c0@transnote>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:31:41 +0200
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...

> And people wonder why so many companies are pulling out of the USA, or
> moving their engineering operations elsewhere.

Not just out of the USA.  If you do little more than scratch the surface, you find that some
of the best-known names in the industry are now backed by resource pools in India, the
Philippines, etc.

Back in the early 1980s, the Government of Bangladesh officially listed 'people' as one of its
major exports.  They can do it now without having to go through the visa hassle by staying at
home on a broadband link.  None of our governments seem to have reacted to this - the UK
Government is pushing through a tax regime for independents (IR35) that is crippling enough to
force some people out of business.

But I digress.  Again.

--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Approved-By:  Alan Altmark <Alan_Altmark@US.IBM.COM>
Message-ID:  <OF3AB1C01A.5F7F243A-ON85256B9D.0054719A@pok.ibm.com>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:27:33 -0400
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Alan Altmark <Alan_Altmark@us.ibm.com>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...

On Tuesday, 04/16/2002 at 10:38 CET, Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
wrote:
> > now becoming quite serious in the EMC/Hitachi case.  The fatc that
Hercules'
> > implementation of these features is in software and not in hardware
brings
> > a fascinating aspect to bear.
>
> Patents on software algorithms apply only in a tiny number of nations.
At
> worst Hercules would join the vast list of software, hardware and
methods
> of work that are allowed everywhere in the world but the USA.
>
> And people wonder why so many companies are pulling out of the USA, or
> moving their engineering operations elsewhere..

Labor costs.  Yes, specific companies may have to leave or move some
operations as the law requires (e.g. some biotech), but that would seem to
me to be a minority.

FYI....Here at the WAVV conference, one or more requirements are planned
to be submitted to IBM to address the issue of hobbyist licensing of S/390
and zSeries software.

Alan Altmark
(speaking for myself, not IBM)

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Approved-By:  Jay Maynard <jmaynard@CONMICRO.CX>
Message-ID:  <20020416120820.A10272@thebrain.conmicro.cx>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:08:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.cx>
Subject:      Hi there... (missed one)
 
I missed the following reply from Phil Payne in my flood of mail.
 
>I suggest you look up 'censor' an any good dictionary.  I have tried to
>post three times since this ban was imposed (without even the courtesy of a
>note to me or a note to the Yahoo group)a nd no post has go through.  I
>note Phil Roberts' recent attempt to get me barred from the FLEX-ES list,
>too.  Seems to be a strategy.
 
Phil Roberts does not speak or act for the Hercules team.
 
Phil's posting privileges were set to require moderator approval before
sending to the entire list due to his consinual, disruptive posting on his
favorite topic long after the members of the list had lost interest. He had
more than a full and complete opportunity to state his views; indeed, it was
that that led to his being moderated.
 
>The issue was (and is) that the status of Hercules' use of IBM intellectual
>property is undetermined - simply that.  I felt that Hercules' owners were
>involving others in the development of the product when all along the
>danger exists that IBM could assert its rights and close the whole thing
>down.
 
If I were not confident in my position on Hercules and IBM's intellectual
property, I wouldn't be involved myself. At any rate, the reaction of the
folks on the Hercules list would seem to show that they genuinely don't feel
that that's a realistic possibility.
 
>> Fortunately, I also believe IBM understands this. Between that, and their
>>public comments to Eric Raymond and Bruce Perens about not enforcing their
>>patents against Open Source developers, I doubt that any of the dire
>>predictions about IBM sending a cease and desist notice for Hercules will
>>actually come to pass.
> ... not enforcing their [software] patents ...
> I and many others would still like a name for this completely unsupported
>assertion of yours.
 
I just spoke to Eric Raymond on the phone. He recalls the conversation Bruce
Perens cites (at http://perens.com/Articles/Patents.html , near the bottom), 
but does not believe it was intended to serve as a public commitment of IBM
policy. I've dropped Bruce a note asking if he remembers it the same way.
 
Even in the absence of such a public commitment, however, I (and when I
mentioned it to Eric, he as well) still feel that Alan Cox's analysis is on
target: slapping down Hercules would destroy their credibility in the eyes
of the open source community, something they can ill afford.
 
>One of the most interesting aspects of all this is the status of an
>invention that is reimplemented in a totally different technology.
 
I agree...and it's been suggested to me that at least one manufacturer has
researched the question and concluded that it would not apply.
 
>Just about every major System/370 and System/390 feature has patent
>protection, starting (roughly) with Cross Memory Services.
 
How many of those patents are still in effect? At least some would have had
to have been issued before 1985, and would be expired by now.

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References: <OF3AB1C01A.5F7F243A-ON85256B9D.0054719A@pok.ibm.com>
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Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:26:45 -0500
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.cx>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  <OF3AB1C01A.5F7F243A-ON85256B9D.0054719A@pok.ibm.com>; from Alan_Altmark@us.ibm.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:27:33AM -0400

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:27:33AM -0400, Alan Altmark wrote:
> FYI....Here at the WAVV conference, one or more requirements are planned
> to be submitted to IBM to address the issue of hobbyist licensing of S/390
> and zSeries software.

That's great! I'll be happy to discuss my thoughts on the subject (which
I've been pushing for a while) with anyone who's interested...although it's
probably not germane to this list.

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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  <OF3AB1C01A.5F7F243A-ON85256B9D.0054719A@pok.ibm.com> from "Alan Altmark" at Apr 16, 2002 11:27:33 AM
 
> Labor costs.  Yes, specific companies may have to leave or move some
> operations as the law requires (e.g. some biotech), but that would seem to
> me to be a minority.
 
Plus broken patent law, government paperwork overhead, high taxes, lack of
public health care, disruptive government policies, broken liability law
and so forth. Don't make the mistake of thinking its just labour costing.
That I'm afraid is a myth.
 
Alan

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Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 06:28:21 +0800
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:33:40 +0200." <00d101c1e519$0e0d99c0$0900a8c0@transnote>
 
Linux@isham-research.com said:
> I note Phil Roberts' recent attempt to get me barred from the FLEX-ES
> list, too.  Seems to be a strategy.
 
Must be something about you, Phil. Here's hoping this will clean up my
mail a little:
:0
* isham-research.co
/dev/null
 
 
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
 
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
 
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.
 
==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 06:53:50 +0800
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: Hi there... (missed one)
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:08:20 EST." <20020416120820.A10272@thebrain.conmicro.cx>
 
jmaynard@conmicro.cx said:
> >Just about every major System/370 and System/390 feature has patent >
> protection, starting (roughly) with Cross Memory Services.
 
> How many of those patents are still in effect? At least some would
> have had to have been issued before 1985, and would be expired by now.
>
 
and XMS is more than 17 years old. It had been in client machines some
time before '85.
 
I don't have a calendar of significant events, but I suspect everything
S/370-related is more than 17 years old.
 
 
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
 
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
 
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.
 
==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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Approved-By:  Gregg C Levine <hansolofalcon@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Message-ID:  <000001c1e59c$255e9920$c450580c@who>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 19:12:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Gregg C Levine <hansolofalcon@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:      Re: Hi there... (missed one)
In-Reply-To:  <200204162253.g3GMros11107@numbat.Os2.Ami.Com.Au>
 
Hello from Gregg C Levine
Second the motion. It turns out that the whole internals of the systems,
that evolved into System/390, were being designed into place, right
around the year I was born. So, yes, they are my age. And no laughs, and
finger pointing either.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon@worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."=A0 Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
 
 
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of 
> John Summerfield
> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 6:54 PM
> To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
> Subject: Re: Hi there... (missed one)
>=20
> jmaynard@conmicro.cx said:
> > >Just about every major System/370 and System/390 feature has patent
>
> > protection, starting (roughly) with Cross Memory Services.
>=20
> > How many of those patents are still in effect? At least some would
> > have had to have been issued before 1985, and would be expired by
now.
> >
>=20
> and XMS is more than 17 years old. It had been in client machines some
> time before '85.
>=20
> I don't have a calendar of significant events, but I suspect
everything
> S/370-related is more than 17 years old.
>=20
>=20
> --
> Cheers
> John Summerfield
>=20
> Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
>=20
> Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
> disposition.
>=20
> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> If you don't like being told you're wrong,
>         be right!

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Approved-By:  Craig Vernon <cvernon@AU1.IBM.COM>
Message-ID:  <OF04311C5B.8FB8F2E1-ONCA256B9D.008153ED@au.ibm.com>
Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:46:13 +1000
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Craig Vernon <cvernon@au1.ibm.com>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
 
Let me just emphasis one distinction that appears not to have been
appreciated. Patents are not issued for algorithms but only the
implementation of them, in an invention or process. The effect of this is
quite limiting and specific. You could still implement the same algorithm
for a different purpose. Arguably, when the form changes so too does the
purpose. So far this discussion seems to doing little to qualify the
difference between a mere possibility and a probability. It is a
possibility that IBM could target Hercules but not aprobability, and even
then, if it were, I don't see the claim being successful as even a
possibility.
 
What I see as likely is that the reason for behind generating a discussion
like this is to create ill will towards IBM, by arousing undue suspicions.
 
Regards, Craig
 
+61-2-9354-7283 tel +61-2-9354-7797 fax
Craig Vernon B.App.Sc. LL.B.
IBM Support Centre FB41
55 Coonara Ave
West Pennant Hills 2125
Sydney NSW Australia
Visit us at http://www.ibm.com/services/au/its 
 
"You can not find a solution using the same thinking that created the
problem." - Albert EInstein
 
If received in error please delete and notify the sender immediately. No
other use permitted. Neither confidentiality, privilege nor copyright
waived.
 
 
 
                      Alan Cox
                      <alan@lxorguk.uku        To:       LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
                      u.org.uk>                cc:
                      Sent by: Linux on        Subject:  Re: Hi there...
                      390 Port
                      <LINUX-390@VM.MAR
                      IST.EDU>
 
 
                      16/04/2002 07:38
                      PM
                      Please respond to
                      Linux on 390 Port
 
 
 
 
 
> now becoming quite serious in the EMC/Hitachi case.  The fatc that
Hercules'
> implementation of these features is in software and not in hardware
brings
> a fascinating aspect to bear.
 
Patents on software algorithms apply only in a tiny number of nations. At
worst Hercules would join the vast list of software, hardware and methods
of work that are allowed everywhere in the world but the USA.
 
And people wonder why so many companies are pulling out of the USA, or
moving their engineering operations elsewhere..
 
Alan

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Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 20:09:15 -0500
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.cx>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  <OF04311C5B.8FB8F2E1-ONCA256B9D.008153ED@au.ibm.com>; from cvernon@au1.ibm.com on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:46:13AM +1000

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:46:13AM +1000, Craig Vernon wrote:
> What I see as likely is that the reason for behind generating a discussion
> like this is to create ill will towards IBM, by arousing undue suspicions.

Towards IBM? Not from this quarter. I'm not going to call IBM a bunch of
dirty rotten nogoodniks unless and until they actually do something to
deserve it (and compared to a lot of other vendors, they're shining examples
of business ethics and customer service). Neither, as far as I know, is
anyone else involved with Hercules.

I believe that the discussion pops up every now and then in an attempt to
frighten people away from using or working on Hercules. Fortunately, it's
pretty transparent FUD. There are 2271 subscribers to the hercules-390
mailing list, and I'm sure there are at least as many users of the system
out there who aren't subscribed. I don't see people running for the exits.

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Approved-By:  Phil Payne <Linux@ISHAM-RESEARCH.COM>
Message-ID:  <004501c1e5ef$8a35a340$0900a8c0@transnote>
Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 11:07:22 +0200
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
 
> I believe that the discussion pops up every now and then in an attempt to
> frighten people away from using or working on Hercules. Fortunately, it's
> pretty transparent FUD. There are 2271 subscribers to the hercules-390
> mailing list, and I'm sure there are at least as many users of the system
> out there who aren't subscribed. I don't see people running for the exits.
 
You can't rewrite history, Jay.  This particular flareup was triggered by IBM's action in
removing references to Hercules from the Linux on S/390 Redbook - and in a most unorthodox way
without a revision level change, rendering the old version unorderable and causing propagation
to overlay it.  I can only remember this happening once before, and that was over twenty years
ago.  As much as you might like to believe or create the impression that someone "has it in
for" Hercules, it wasn't me or anyone else you might perceive as one of your enemies who
brought the matter up.
 
I also don't believe it should be seen as a "slap in the face" - more the turning away of a
shoulder.  I can't find out why the Linux Redbook was purged, and I have really tried.  Even
IBMers who talk to me privately and would probably get fired if they were ever caught doing so
will not discuss Hercules under any circumstances.
 
I appreciate the gravity of the situation as far as your product is concerned.  As far as I
know, only one user has a licence to run z/OS under Hercules and that door seems firmly
closed.  IBM is currently adamant that future releases of z/OS will require the Licence
Manager, though as you probably know I'm sceptical about the technology.  Linux/390 is your
only legal zArchitecture OS (patent and similar issues aside) and the Redbook chapter was a
major plus.
 
The modification of the Redbook is a simple demonstrable fact - you cannot dismiss it as
"pretty transparent FUD". I think a great many people using or considering Linux/390 with
Hercules would like to understand why it was done and what
it portends before commiting time and money to such a project.  Such prudence is quite
natural.
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  <OF04311C5B.8FB8F2E1-ONCA256B9D.008153ED@au.ibm.com> from "Craig Vernon" at Apr 17, 2002 09:46:13 AM
 
> Let me just emphasis one distinction that appears not to have been
> appreciated. Patents are not issued for algorithms but only the
> implementation of them, in an invention or process. The effect of this is
 
Only theoretically in the USA. But in the USA it doesnt matter any way at a
million dollars a month for a patent lawsuit exterminating your competition
it is great value for money. Actually having a valid patent and being right are
strictly optional.
 
Alan

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Approved-By:  Phil Payne <Linux@ISHAM-RESEARCH.COM>
Message-ID:  <000701c1e5fa$4388ad60$0900a8c0@transnote>
Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:25:50 +0200
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
 
> Only theoretically in the USA. But in the USA it doesnt matter any way at a
> million dollars a month for a patent lawsuit exterminating your competition
> it is great value for money. Actually having a valid patent and being right are
> strictly optional.
 
Stac Electronics vs Microsoft back in 1993/4 comes to mind.  At one point Stac had to lay off
40 employees to continue funding the case.
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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Approved-By:  Craig Vernon <cvernon@AU1.IBM.COM>
Message-ID:  <OF84766D30.E2917AD7-ONCA256B9E.0009FE32@au.ibm.com>
Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:05:54 +1000
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Craig Vernon <cvernon@au1.ibm.com>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...

Jay,

towards IBM? Yes, you know, David and Goliath? Yes quite right it could
also scare people off working on Hercules but the backlash would hit IBM,
but thanks for reminding us all to keep our eyes firmly fixed on the facts.
No disagreement with your quarter. Like you, all I'm suggesting is that
this is revolving FUD, in the absence of any substantiating facts.

Regards, Craig

                      Jay Maynard
                      <jmaynard@conmicr        To:       LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
                      o.cx>                    cc:
                      Sent by: Linux on        Subject:  Re: Hi there...
                      390 Port
                      <LINUX-390@VM.MAR
                      IST.EDU>

                      17/04/2002 11:09
                      AM
                      Please respond to
                      Linux on 390 Port

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:46:13AM +1000, Craig Vernon wrote:
> What I see as likely is that the reason for behind generating a
discussion
> like this is to create ill will towards IBM, by arousing undue
suspicions.

Towards IBM? Not from this quarter. I'm not going to call IBM a bunch of
dirty rotten nogoodniks unless and until they actually do something to
deserve it (and compared to a lot of other vendors, they're shining
examples
of business ethics and customer service). Neither, as far as I know, is
anyone else involved with Hercules.

I believe that the discussion pops up every now and then in an attempt to
frighten people away from using or working on Hercules. Fortunately, it's
pretty transparent FUD. There are 2271 subscribers to the hercules-390
mailing list, and I'm sure there are at least as many users of the system
out there who aren't subscribed. I don't see people running for the exits.

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Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 07:35:25 -0500
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.cx>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  <004501c1e5ef$8a35a340$0900a8c0@transnote>; from Linux@isham-research.com on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:07:22AM +0200

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 11:07:22AM +0200, Phil Payne wrote:
> > I believe that the discussion pops up every now and then in an attempt to
> > frighten people away from using or working on Hercules. Fortunately, it's
> > pretty transparent FUD. There are 2271 subscribers to the hercules-390
> > mailing list, and I'm sure there are at least as many users of the system
> > out there who aren't subscribed. I don't see people running for the exits.
>
> You can't rewrite history, Jay.  This particular flareup was triggered by
> IBM's action in removing references to Hercules from the Linux on S/390
> Redbook - and in a most unorthodox way without a revision level change,
> rendering the old version unorderable and causing propagation to overlay
> it.  I can only remember this happening once before, and that was over
> twenty years ago.  As much as you might like to believe or create the
> impression that someone "has it in for" Hercules, it wasn't me or anyone
> else you might perceive as one of your enemies who brought the matter up.

True. However, I was referring to the discussion about Hercules' alleged
violations of unspecified IBM intellectual property. (Whenever I talk about
patents, you say it's not just patents, but when I point out that patents
are all it can be, you dodge the question.) That discussion has happened
before, several times in several different forums, and you've instigated it
each time.

> I also don't believe it should be seen as a "slap in the face" - more the
> turning away of a shoulder.  I can't find out why the Linux Redbook was
> purged, and I have really tried.  Even IBMers who talk to me privately and
> would probably get fired if they were ever caught doing so will not
> discuss Hercules under any circumstances.

Greg Dyck said it best: it's not their place to comment on Hercules. That
would be the same for the Hitachi Skyline, or any other PCM.

> I appreciate the gravity of the situation as far as your product is
> concerned.  As far as I know, only one user has a licence to run z/OS
> under Hercules and that door seems firmly closed.  IBM is currently
> adamant that future releases of z/OS will require the Licence Manager,
> though as you probably know I'm sceptical about the technology.  Linux/390
> is your only legal zArchitecture OS (patent and similar issues aside) and
> the Redbook chapter was a major plus.

That leaves out z/VM and whatever they're calling the z/Architecture version
of VSE (or is it still VSE/ESA?).

IBM uses Hercules internally; I've gotten email from IBMers around the world
about how it's helped them do their jobs. (Apparently, getting a copy of
Flex-ES, even for purely internal use, is a headache.) I've even gotten
inquiries from within IBM about whether we'd be interested in developing
emulations in advance of the actual product, under NDA. (I wasn't; the legal
hassles, and issues in keeping the public and private versions separate yet
in sync, weren't worth the benefit.) I don't know how the License Manager
works, but if we can reverse-engineer it, we'll find a way to make it run.
It wouldn't be the first time.

> The modification of the Redbook is a simple demonstrable fact - you cannot
> dismiss it as "pretty transparent FUD". I think a great many people using
> or considering Linux/390 with Hercules would like to understand why it was
> done and what it portends before commiting time and money to such a
> project.  Such prudence is quite natural.

No argument about wanting to understand why it was done. I'd like to know
too. I bet Richard Higson would like to know even more, since it was his
chapter that got deleted. What counts as FUD is your allegation that it
represents IBM getting ready to slap Hercules down hard with their lawyers,
and that that makes Hercules something that they should not commit their
time and effort to. It's the same thing as IBM threatening Amdahl
purchasers.

The folks here, and on the hercules-390 list, are big boys (and girls!), and
are quite capable of making that kind of decision on their own.

I've gotten help from this list in getting Red Hat 7.2 running (though it
isn't yet, I'm a lot further along than I was before...thanks, guys!), but
the simple fact is that I joined it because I had to in order to counter yet
more of your FUD, which you seem to delight in spreading about Hercules
wherever you go.

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Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 22:37:01 +1000
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Vic Cross <vic.cross@veejoe.com.au>
Organization: Veejoe Consulting Pty Ltd
Subject:      Re: Hi there...

Phil Payne wrote:

> You can't rewrite history, Jay.  This particular flareup was triggered by
IBM's action in
> removing references to Hercules from the Linux on S/390 Redbook - and in a
most unorthodox way

And this was all the provocation it took for you to start peddling the same
story over again.

For the record, I think IBM's "Linux on the Mainframe" campaign has two
products to thank for its existence: VM and Hercules.  Depending on who you
talk to, VM is given rightful acknowledgement, but Hercules is a different
matter.  IMO, Linux on the mainframe owes more to Hercules than anyone is
willing to admit--refer to situations like Greg Smith's exposure of a bug in
the DASD driver.  Besides, the fact that a kernel hacker can get everything
(s)he needs to kick the tyres of Linux/390 from a few websites fits so well
with the ideals of Linux and Open Source that... well, it just *feels
right*.  It's A Good Thing.  If you don't understand that, you don't get it
and aren't likely to.

For me, I owe almost everything I know about Linux/390 to the Hercules
project.  Without Hercules, my consulting firm will likely have to abandon
their fledgling z/Linux/390 practice, since without my knowledge being
up-to-date they will have no skill to offer.  I'll still have my P/390, all
3 glorious MIPS of it (when I can get 20-30 MIPS on my dual Athlon), but
there's this little issue of 64-bit support...  Buy a FLEX-ES box?  The
whole process is geared toward z/OS / z/VM / VSE customers--I can't pay for
that[1], and my consulting firm won't either--oh, and there's that 64-bit
question again.  In summary: it's all bad.

*Until* IBM plays their hand I will continue to grow my knowledge with
Linux/390 and z/Linux  using Hercules.  If/when IBM chokes Hercules, they
(and their distribution partners) will lose me as a Linux/390 and z/Series
advocate, because I will no longer be able to learn/test/evaluate/etc.
IMNSHO, to attempt to shut down Hercules would be a massive mistake on IBM's
part, tantamount to flushing their famous US$1B straight down the sewer.

But, as has been pointed out already, this is just reactionist conjecture.
Provoked in no small part by the repeated harping of one Phil Payne.

We're tired, Phil.  Goodnight.

--
Vic Cross  MACS     mailto:vic.cross@veejoe.com.au 
Networking, Linux, for zSeries and S/390

[1] How could I pay for a P/390, if I can't afford FLEX?
MCA P/390 board and daughter RAM card: A$2300 over the internet.
PC Server 500, plus box full of MCA cards and 1G HDDs: A$50 from a mate at a
place I used to work.
SuSE Linux/390 7.0 GA CD image: A$0 over the internet
disk to burn the image onto: A$2
Finally getting the thing together, installed, and running: Unforgettable.
Getting 10x the performance under Hercules on a PC for the same money:
Priceless.

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Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 07:41:33 -0500
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.cx>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  <OF84766D30.E2917AD7-ONCA256B9E.0009FE32@au.ibm.com>; from cvernon@au1.ibm.com on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 12:05:54PM +1000

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 12:05:54PM +1000, Craig Vernon wrote:
> towards IBM? Yes, you know, David and Goliath? Yes quite right it could
> also scare people off working on Hercules but the backlash would hit IBM,
> but thanks for reminding us all to keep our eyes firmly fixed on the facts.
> No disagreement with your quarter. Like you, all I'm suggesting is that
> this is revolving FUD, in the absence of any substantiating facts.

I agree that, should IBM take action to stop Hercules, they'd be a bunch of
dirty rotten nogoodniks, and I'd do my best to see that the word got out.
That would indeed create a backlash against IBM; especially in this forum -
where I believe it would do IBM incalculable damage.

However, until something of the sort happens, the discussion has the
opposite effect on our attitudes toward IBM: they're good guys for *not*
doing anything. The only dirty rotten nogoodnik here is the guy spreading
FUD.

For the record, IBM has not contacted me or any other Hercules developer
with any allegation whatsoever about patent or trade secret infringement.

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From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:26:45 EST." <20020416112645.A10234@thebrain.conmicro.cx>

> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:27:33AM -0400, Alan Altmark wrote:
> > FYI....Here at the WAVV conference, one or more requirements are planned
> > to be submitted to IBM to address the issue of hobbyist licensing of S/390
> > and zSeries software.
>
> That's great! I'll be happy to discuss my thoughts on the subject (which
> I've been pushing for a while) with anyone who's interested...although it's
> probably not germane to this list.
>

Why is it not relevant to the list? Hercules is the ONLY way I can run
S/390 or zSeries Linux.

--
Cheers
John Summerfield

Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 

Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.

==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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Subject:      Re: Hi there...
In-Reply-To:  <200204162300.g3GN0rq11199@numbat.Os2.Ami.Com.Au>; from summer@os2.ami.com.au on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 07:00:50AM +0800

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 07:00:50AM +0800, John Summerfield wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:27:33AM -0400, Alan Altmark wrote:
> > > FYI....Here at the WAVV conference, one or more requirements are planned
> > > to be submitted to IBM to address the issue of hobbyist licensing of S/390
> > > and zSeries software.
> > That's great! I'll be happy to discuss my thoughts on the subject (which
> > I've been pushing for a while) with anyone who's interested...although it's
> > probably not germane to this list.
> Why is it not relevant to the list? Hercules is the ONLY way I can run
> S/390 or zSeries Linux.

I was referring to hobbyist licensing of IBM program product operating
systems and utilities, not Hercules itself or Linux running on it.