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Subject: missing javax audio?
From: E <blockswo...@gmail.com>
To: Android Developers <android-developers@googlegroups.com>
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Hello,

Some months ago I began a project that involved some basic signal
processing. I used the Java Sound API, including AudioInputStream to
get linear bytes from a recording to do some simple analysis.

With the release of the 1.0 toolkit I picked the project up again, but
the Javax audio classes are missing. Is there a replacement for these
classes? What's the plan?

Apparently there are other API's that got pulled?
I was able to get my code to compile by pulling them out of a full
java distro and adding them to my project, but as noted elsewhere,
this won't actually run on the device.

Thanks,

  -Ethan

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Message-ID: <9ccc1ee4-d1de-41b7-89de-c9a3953f9d90@c1g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: missing javax audio?
From: Robert Green <rbgrn....@gmail.com>
To: Android Developers <android-developers@googlegroups.com>
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I motion for a petition for full audio API in the 1.1 SDK.

On Nov 19, 8:43=A0pm, E <blockswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Some months ago I began a project that involved some basic signal
> processing. I used the Java Sound API, including AudioInputStream to
> get linear bytes from a recording to do some simple analysis.
>
> With the release of the 1.0 toolkit I picked the project up again, but
> the Javax audio classes are missing. Is there a replacement for these
> classes? What's the plan?
>
> Apparently there are other API's that got pulled?
> I was able to get my code to compile by pulling them out of a full
> java distro and adding them to my project, but as noted elsewhere,
> this won't actually run on the device.
>
> Thanks,
>

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Subject: Re: missing javax audio?
From: "davidspa...@android.com" <davidspa...@android.com>
To: Android Developers <android-developers@googlegroups.com>
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We have no plans to support the Javax multimedia classes at this time.

On Nov 19, 8:21=A0pm, Robert Green <rbgrn....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I motion for a petition for full audio API in the 1.1 SDK.
>
> On Nov 19, 8:43=A0pm, E <blockswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
>
> > Some months ago I began a project that involved some basic signal
> > processing. I used the Java Sound API, including AudioInputStream to
> > get linear bytes from a recording to do some simple analysis.
>
> > With the release of the 1.0 toolkit I picked the project up again, but
> > the Javax audio classes are missing. Is there a replacement for these
> > classes? What's the plan?
>
> > Apparently there are other API's that got pulled?
> > I was able to get my code to compile by pulling them out of a full
> > java distro and adding them to my project, but as noted elsewhere,
> > this won't actually run on the device.
>
> > Thanks,
>

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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:08:21 -0800
From: "Dianne Hackborn" <hack...@android.com>
To: android-developers@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [android-developers] Re: missing javax audio?
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On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 8:21 PM, Robert Green <rbgrn....@gmail.com> wrote:

> I motion for a petition for full audio API in the 1.1 SDK.


Contributing patches would be a much more effective approach than a
petition.

-- 
Dianne Hackborn
hack...@android.com

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Message-ID: <93d00ac7-6025-4423-8c11-812b314aca56@f20g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: missing javax audio?
From: Robert Green <rbgrn....@gmail.com>
To: Android Developers <android-developers@googlegroups.com>
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That's very unfortunate.  iPhone has one up on the android in this
arena.

On Nov 20, 12:26=A0am, "davidspa...@android.com"
<davidspa...@android.com> wrote:
> We have no plans to support the Javax multimedia classes at this time.
>
> On Nov 19, 8:21=A0pm, Robert Green <rbgrn....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I motion for a petition for full audio API in the 1.1 SDK.
>
> > On Nov 19, 8:43=A0pm, E <blockswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Hello,
>
> > > Some months ago I began a project that involved some basic signal
> > > processing. I used the Java Sound API, including AudioInputStream to
> > > get linear bytes from a recording to do some simple analysis.
>
> > > With the release of the 1.0 toolkit I picked the project up again, bu=
t
> > > the Javax audio classes are missing. Is there a replacement for these
> > > classes? What's the plan?
>
> > > Apparently there are other API's that got pulled?
> > > I was able to get my code to compile by pulling them out of a full
> > > java distro and adding them to my project, but as noted elsewhere,
> > > this won't actually run on the device.
>
> > > Thanks,
>
> > > =A0 -Ethan
>

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Subject: Re: [android-developers] Re: missing javax audio?
From: Dan Bornstein <danf...@android.com>
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On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Robert Green <rbgrn....@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's very unfortunate.  iPhone has one up on the android in this
> arena.

There are two separate questions here, I think. One is about improved
audio support. The other is about whether that support will come in
the form of an implementation of the javax sampled sound API.

We are absolutely committed to improving audio support. There already
are Android-specific classes and methods for a lot of audio-related
functionality, but we know full well that there is much more that
could be done. You can safely expect to see us continue to improve the
Android-specific API.

We did have a go at implementing javax.sound for 1.0, but effectively
due to time constraints, we were not able to bring that code up to
production quality. So, rather than ship an "attractive nuisance" that
would have caused developers pain, agony, and suffering, we decided
instead that the platform API would be better off without it, for now.
There is nothing that you could have done using the javax API, as
implemented, that you couldn't have also done using the
Android-specific API; the difference is more that porting pre-existing
code would have been easier if the more standard API were in place
(and if it worked as expected).

You can find the javax.sound code, as it currently exists, in the open
source tree at </platform/dalvik/libcore-disabled/>. When Dianne
said...

> Contributing patches would be a much more effective approach than a petition.

...the specific patches she presumably meant would be patches to make
this as-yet incomplete code into a stable, usable, library.

-dan

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Subject: Re: missing javax audio?
From: blindfold <seeingwithso...@gmail.com>
To: Android Developers <android-developers@googlegroups.com>
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Thanks Dan, that is quite informative!

> We are absolutely committed to improving audio support.

Great to hear that!

> You can find the javax.sound code, as it currently exists, in the open
> source tree at </platform/dalvik/libcore-disabled/>.

OK, at http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=3Dplatform/dalvik.git;a=3Dtree;f=3D=
libcore-disabled

> When Dianne said...
>
> > Contributing patches would be a much more effective approach than a pet=
ition.
>
> ...the specific patches she presumably meant would be patches to make
> this as-yet incomplete code into a stable, usable, library.

My concern is that at its lowest level javax.sound too is mostly
hampered by Android MediaPlayer being a "more or less stand-alone and
closed-source native application" that communicates with Android
through a too limited set of methods and data structures (e.g.,
files). In that case even a perfect javax.sound implementation at Java
level still does not help to solve our current problems. BTW, I'm not
too fond of javax.sound myself because of its rather complexity/
functionality ratio, so I personally do not push for its
implementation and support anyway.

> There is nothing that you could have done using the javax API, as
> implemented, that you couldn't have also done using the
> Android-specific API

Or I suppose also vice versa, what cannot be done with the Android-
specific API (in terms of in-memory work) could also not be done in
javax.sound, because the implementation bottleneck is mostly in the
low-level interface with the native MediaPlayer engine, which lacks
shared memory features (e.g., for direct access to audio buffers) for
concern about possible security issues?

For me a major step forward would already be when the Android-specific
MediaPlayer API for setDataSource() gets extended with methods that
accept a byte array (or stream, or other in-memory data structure) as
its argument - plus of course the low level implementation to make it
interface with the native MediaPlayer engine. I cannot see in media/
jni/android_media_MediaPlayer.cpp what degrees of freedom
process_media_player_call() offers through its arguments, and none of
this seems described in public documents? This may cripple third-party
development of those proposed "patches". Maybe I see things too
gloomy? I stand corrected!

Thanks


On Nov 20, 8:07=A0pm, Dan Bornstein <danf...@android.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Robert Green <rbgrn....@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> > That's very unfortunate. =A0iPhone has one up on the android in this
> > arena.
>
> There are two separate questions here, I think. One is about improved
> audio support. The other is about whether that support will come in
> the form of an implementation of the javax sampled sound API.
>
> We are absolutely committed to improving audio support. There already
> are Android-specific classes and methods for a lot of audio-related
> functionality, but we know full well that there is much more that
> could be done. You can safely expect to see us continue to improve the
> Android-specific API.
>
> We did have a go at implementing javax.sound for 1.0, but effectively
> due to time constraints, we were not able to bring that code up to
> production quality. So, rather than ship an "attractive nuisance" that
> would have caused developers pain, agony, and suffering, we decided
> instead that the platform API would be better off without it, for now.
> There is nothing that you could have done using the javax API, as
> implemented, that you couldn't have also done using the
> Android-specific API; the difference is more that porting pre-existing
> code would have been easier if the more standard API were in place
> (and if it worked as expected).
>
> You can find the javax.sound code, as it currently exists, in the open
> source tree at </platform/dalvik/libcore-disabled/>. When Dianne
> said...
>
> > Contributing patches would be a much more effective approach than a pet=
ition.
>
> ...the specific patches she presumably meant would be patches to make
> this as-yet incomplete code into a stable, usable, library.
>

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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:23:12 -0800
Message-ID: <8084e12c0811201223u14d93876qc4be1b273e540...@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [android-developers] Re: missing javax audio?
From: Dan Bornstein <danf...@android.com>
To: android-developers@googlegroups.com
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On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:16 PM, blindfold <seeingwithso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You can find the javax.sound code, as it currently exists, in the open
>> source tree at </platform/dalvik/libcore-disabled/>.
>> [...]
>> ...the specific patches she presumably meant would be patches to make
>> this as-yet incomplete code into a stable, usable, library.
>
> My concern is that at its lowest level javax.sound too is mostly
> hampered by Android MediaPlayer being a "more or less stand-alone and
> closed-source native application" that communicates with Android
> through a too limited set of methods and data structures (e.g.,
> files). In that case even a perfect javax.sound implementation at Java
> level still does not help to solve our current problems.

The original request was (and the subject line still is) specifically
about functionality in javax.sound. I responded in that context. My
later remarks were meant to frame the larger picture. Briefly put, we
agree.

-dan

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Subject: Re: missing javax audio?
From: "davidspa...@android.com" <davidspa...@android.com>
To: Android Developers <android-developers@googlegroups.com>
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We are committed to improved multimedia support, as I've made clear in
other posts. You'll see some new features in the next major SDK
release. We just don't think that javax is the best way to support
audio.

On Nov 20, 12:36 pm, blindfold <seeingwithso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Fair enough. Sorry (also to Ethan) for perhaps distracting a bit from
> javax.sound even though Java ME supports much the same javax.sound
> AudioInputStream functionality that Ethan was specifically inquiring
> about. Glad to hear that our ideas match. It should help in getting
> the actual work done.
>
> Thanks
>
> On Nov 20, 9:23 pm, Dan Bornstein <danf...@android.com> wrote:
>
> > The original request was (and the subject line still is) specifically
> > about functionality in javax.sound. I responded in that context. My
> > later remarks were meant to frame the larger picture. Briefly put, we
> > agree.
>

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Subject: Re: missing javax audio?
From: Sriramv <sriram.v...@gmail.com>
To: Android Developers <android-developers@googlegroups.com>

What about the SoniVox audio APIs?
SoniVox (http://www.sonivoxrocks.com/google.html) is already in the
source tree under external libraries.
Can they be used to access sample-level audio streams at the moment?

On Nov 20, 8:29=A0pm, "davidspa...@android.com"
<davidspa...@android.com> wrote:
> We are committed to improved multimedia support, as I've made clear in
> other posts. You'll see some new features in the next major SDK
> release. We just don't think that javax is the best way to support
> audio.
>
> On Nov 20, 12:36 pm, blindfold <seeingwithso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Fair enough. Sorry (also to Ethan) for perhaps distracting a bit from
> > javax.sound even though Java ME supports much the same javax.sound
> > AudioInputStream functionality that Ethan was specifically inquiring
> > about. Glad to hear that our ideas match. It should help in getting
> > the actual work done.
>
> > Thanks
>
> > On Nov 20, 9:23 pm, Dan Bornstein <danf...@android.com> wrote:
>
> > > The original request was (and the subject line still is) specifically
> > > about functionality in javax.sound. I responded in that context. My
> > > later remarks were meant to frame the larger picture. Briefly put, we
> > > agree.
>
> > > -dan

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Subject: Re: missing javax audio?
From: "davidspa...@android.com" <davidspa...@android.com>
To: Android Developers <android-developers@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There is no approved method for getting at sample audio input or
output in SDK 1.0. We are aware that is a significant limitation and
efforts are underway to address it.

On Nov 21, 11:06=A0am, Sriramv <sriram.v...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What about the SoniVox audio APIs?
> SoniVox (http://www.sonivoxrocks.com/google.html) is already in the
> source tree under external libraries.
> Can they be used to access sample-level audio streams at the moment?
>
> On Nov 20, 8:29=A0pm, "davidspa...@android.com"
>
> <davidspa...@android.com> wrote:
> > We are committed to improved multimedia support, as I've made clear in
> > other posts. You'll see some new features in the next major SDK
> > release. We just don't think that javax is the best way to support
> > audio.
>
> > On Nov 20, 12:36 pm, blindfold <seeingwithso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Fair enough. Sorry (also to Ethan) for perhaps distracting a bit from
> > > javax.sound even though Java ME supports much the same javax.sound
> > > AudioInputStream functionality that Ethan was specifically inquiring
> > > about. Glad to hear that our ideas match. It should help in getting
> > > the actual work done.
>
> > > Thanks
>
> > > On Nov 20, 9:23 pm, Dan Bornstein <danf...@android.com> wrote:
>
> > > > The original request was (and the subject line still is) specifical=
ly
> > > > about functionality in javax.sound. I responded in that context. My
> > > > later remarks were meant to frame the larger picture. Briefly put, =
we
> > > > agree.
>

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Subject: Re: missing javax audio?
From: E <blockswo...@gmail.com>
To: Android Developers <android-developers@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Alright, well the gist of this is pretty clear.
I'm no champion of the javax.sound API in particular, but I was happy
to move my project from a MIDP target to Android, especially since the
emulation and on-loading tools were much more sophisticated and open.
I moved *because* the functionality I needed was there at the time.

My requirements are pretty simple:
1) record to a file
2) open that file with some sort of input stream
3) read chunks from that stream and get amplitude info and whatnot
from each sample
4) not have to worry about the particulars of the audio codecs and
algorithms of the stored files

The AudioInputStream etc. let me do that.
Now I'm looking at having to send the audio snippet off-phone for the
processing and then send the results back. Obviously that may not be
scalable at all, but might be an interim solution until something is
more supported.

I appreciate the "so help and send patches!" request, and I'm glad the
codebase is open. However, for a product which is being sold on a
production device, it smacks as a cheap way to get free coders for a
REALLY BIG company. Regardless, I'm glad it's an option, and frankly
it's one of the reasons I'm trying to work with the platform in the
first (maybe second) place.

Thanks for the info.

  -Ethan


On Nov 21, 9:07=A0pm, "davidspa...@android.com"
<davidspa...@android.com> wrote:
> There is no approved method for getting at sample audio input or
> output in SDK 1.0. We are aware that is a significant limitation and
> efforts are underway to address it.
>
> On Nov 21, 11:06=A0am, Sriramv <sriram.v...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What about the SoniVox audio APIs?
> > SoniVox (http://www.sonivoxrocks.com/google.html) is already in the
> > source tree under external libraries.
> > Can they be used to access sample-level audio streams at the moment?
>
> > On Nov 20, 8:29=A0pm, "davidspa...@android.com"
>
> > <davidspa...@android.com> wrote:
> > > We are committed to improved multimedia support, as I've made clear i=
n
> > > other posts. You'll see some new features in the next major SDK
> > > release. We just don't think that javax is the best way to support
> > > audio.
>
> > > On Nov 20, 12:36 pm, blindfold <seeingwithso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Fair enough. Sorry (also to Ethan) for perhaps distracting a bit fr=
om
> > > >javax.soundeven though Java ME supports much the samejavax.sound
> > > > AudioInputStream functionality that Ethan was specifically inquirin=
g
> > > > about. Glad to hear that our ideas match. It should help in getting
> > > > the actual work done.
>
> > > > Thanks
>
> > > > On Nov 20, 9:23 pm, Dan Bornstein <danf...@android.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > The original request was (and the subject line still is) specific=
ally
> > > > > about functionality injavax.sound. I responded in that context. M=
y
> > > > > later remarks were meant to frame the larger picture. Briefly put=
, we
> > > > > agree.
>

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From: "Dianne Hackborn" <hack...@android.com>
To: android-developers@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [android-developers] Re: missing javax audio?
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On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 2:30 PM, E <blockswo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I appreciate the "so help and send patches!" request, and I'm glad the
> codebase is open. However, for a product which is being sold on a
> production device, it smacks as a cheap way to get free coders for a
> REALLY BIG company.


To be clear: Google is not selling Android, does not make money off of
people using the Android platform, and does not own Android.  They just
happen to be spending a lot of money to pay many engineers to work on
Android, producing a lot of code that everyone else can freely use.

-- 
Dianne Hackborn
Android framework engineer
hack...@android.com

Note: please don't send private questions to me, as I don't have time to
provide private support.  All such questions should be posted on public
forums, where I and others can see and answer them.

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