From: Jerry Baker <jerryba...@attbi.com.nospam>
Newsgroups: macromedia.dreamweaver
Subject: OT: Vote on Persistent Scrollbars
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:08:59 -0600
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I am genuinely interested in getting a guage of what the public at large
thinks of this behavior in Mozilla. If you could stop by and vote one
way or another I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
http://jerbaker.dhs.org/mozilla/voting/Bug72540.html
--
Jerry Baker
From: "James M. Shook" <jsh...@attbi.com>
Newsgroups: macromedia.dreamweaver
Subject: Re: OT: Vote on Persistent Scrollbars
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:31:10 -0400
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I'd rather see:
In Windows:
() Mozilla should have persistent scrollbars, or reserve the space for one.
() Mozilla should not have persistent scrollbars, nor reserve the space for
one.
On the Macintosh:
() Mozilla should have persistent scrollbars, or reserve the space for one.
() Mozilla should not have persistent scrollbars, nor reserve the space for
one.
But since you don't care about the Macintosh, I voted anyway.
-- James M. Shook
http://www.jshook.com
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From: Jerry Baker <jerryba...@attbi.com.nospam>
Newsgroups: macromedia.dreamweaver
Subject: Re: OT: Vote on Persistent Scrollbars
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:33:38 -0600
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James M. Shook says:
> I'd rather see:
>
> In Windows:
> () Mozilla should have persistent scrollbars, or reserve the space for one.
> () Mozilla should not have persistent scrollbars, nor reserve the space for
> one.
>
> On the Macintosh:
> () Mozilla should have persistent scrollbars, or reserve the space for one.
> () Mozilla should not have persistent scrollbars, nor reserve the space for
> one.
>
> But since you don't care about the Macintosh, I voted anyway.
>
> -- James M. Shook
> http://www.jshook.com
It has been made clear that Mozilla is going to do whatever it is going
to do on ALL platforms. I do not agree with that, but that's what looks
like is going to happen. See
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72540#c111
--
Jerry Baker
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From: "James M. Shook" <jsh...@attbi.com>
Newsgroups: macromedia.dreamweaver
Subject: Re: OT: Vote on Persistent Scrollbars
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:54:19 -0400
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> Tradition suggests that Mozilla should always show vertical scrollbars, or at
> least reserve the space for them, since this is how Internet Explorer on
> Windows, Netscape 4, and Opera behave.
This should be:
Tradition suggests that Mozilla should always show vertical scrollbars, or
at least reserve the space for them, since this is how Internet Explorer on
Windows, Netscape 4, and Opera/Windows, Opera 5 for MacOS 9.x (but not
Internet Expelorer/MacOS any version and not Opera 5/MacOS X beta) behave.
-- James M. Shook
http://www.jshook.com
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From: Jerry Baker <jerryba...@attbi.com.nospam>
Newsgroups: macromedia.dreamweaver
Subject: Re: OT: Vote on Persistent Scrollbars
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:05:33 -0600
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James M. Shook says:
>> Tradition suggests that Mozilla should always show vertical scrollbars, or at
>> least reserve the space for them, since this is how Internet Explorer on
>> Windows, Netscape 4, and Opera behave.
>
> This should be:
>
> Tradition suggests that Mozilla should always show vertical scrollbars, or
> at least reserve the space for them, since this is how Internet Explorer on
> Windows, Netscape 4, and Opera/Windows, Opera 5 for MacOS 9.x (but not
> Internet Expelorer/MacOS any version and not Opera 5/MacOS X beta) behave.
>
> -- James M. Shook
> http://www.jshook.com
Fair enough. Changed to:
# Tradition suggests that Mozilla should always show vertical
scrollbars, or at least reserve the space for them, since this is how
Internet Explorer on Windows, Netscape 4 on both Windows and Mac, and
Opera on both Windows and Mac OS 9 behave. Since these browsers are used
by more than 90% of the Web-viewing public, it only seems natural that
Mozilla should behave the way that 90% of its potential client base is
used to.
and...
# All versions of Internet Explorer on the Macintosh, and Opera 5 on Mac
OSX behave the same way that Mozilla currently does.
--
Jerry Baker
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From: "James M. Shook" <jsh...@attbi.com>
Newsgroups: macromedia.dreamweaver
Subject: Re: OT: Vote on Persistent Scrollbars
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:22:39 -0400
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Add Mozilla, OmniWeb 4 and NN 6.2 (for MacOS X) and NN6.2, NN 7 and Mozilla
(for MacOS 9.x) to the list of browser that don't add ghost scrollbars.
ALso, there are different visual methods for displaying ghost scrolbars. NN4
just leaves a blank space, as does Opera 5/MacOS 9.xx. Background color or
graphics will be displayed in that space, but for most designs it just looks
like the content isn't filling the window for some unkown reason. With some
designs you can patch this area by making a graphic and applying it via CSS
as repeat-x.
(Also IE/Window apparently does this when zero page margins aren't defined
via CSS or, bizarrely, no external CSS or JS file is linked to. Refreshing
the page reportedly usually cures this. I've never seen it but I gather it
adds this blank area just to the left of its default ghost scrollbar. True?)
At least with IE/Windows you can see that there *might* be a scrollbar since
you see it in outline form. Just leaving the area white is, in my opinion,
the worst way to deal with this. Don't we all hate this in NN4?
-- James M. Shook
http://www.jshook.com
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From: Jerry Baker <jerryba...@attbi.com.nospam>
Newsgroups: macromedia.dreamweaver
Subject: Re: OT: Vote on Persistent Scrollbars
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:25:05 -0600
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James M. Shook says:
> Add Mozilla, OmniWeb 4 and NN 6.2 (for MacOS X) and NN6.2, NN 7 and Mozilla
> (for MacOS 9.x) to the list of browser that don't add ghost scrollbars.
Except for OmniWeb, those are all the same product as far as the browser
engine goes.
> At least with IE/Windows you can see that there *might* be a scrollbar since
> you see it in outline form. Just leaving the area white is, in my opinion,
> the worst way to deal with this. Don't we all hate this in NN4?
Yes, but I honestly hate it less than I hate Mozilla's behavior. If it
was a choice between the two, I would take NN4's behavior.
--
Jerry Baker
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From: "Murray *TMM*" <for...@hahagreat-web-sights.com>
Newsgroups: macromedia.dreamweaver
Subject: Re: OT: Vote on Persistent Scrollbars
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:11:29 -0400
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Jerry:
Does this reflect a bias toward Mac in the Mozilla development team, do you
think?
--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/
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"Jerry Baker" <jerryba...@attbi.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:agkrut$jng$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> James M. Shook says:
> >> Tradition suggests that Mozilla should always show vertical scrollbars,
or at
> >> least reserve the space for them, since this is how Internet Explorer
on
> >> Windows, Netscape 4, and Opera behave.
> >
> > This should be:
> >
> > Tradition suggests that Mozilla should always show vertical scrollbars,
or
> > at least reserve the space for them, since this is how Internet Explorer
on
> > Windows, Netscape 4, and Opera/Windows, Opera 5 for MacOS 9.x (but not
> > Internet Expelorer/MacOS any version and not Opera 5/MacOS X beta)
behave.
> >
> > -- James M. Shook
> > http://www.jshook.com
>
> Fair enough. Changed to:
>
> # Tradition suggests that Mozilla should always show vertical
> scrollbars, or at least reserve the space for them, since this is how
> Internet Explorer on Windows, Netscape 4 on both Windows and Mac, and
> Opera on both Windows and Mac OS 9 behave. Since these browsers are used
> by more than 90% of the Web-viewing public, it only seems natural that
> Mozilla should behave the way that 90% of its potential client base is
> used to.
>
> and...
>
> # All versions of Internet Explorer on the Macintosh, and Opera 5 on Mac
> OSX behave the same way that Mozilla currently does.
>
> --
> Jerry Baker
>
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From: Jerry Baker <jerryba...@attbi.com.nospam>
Newsgroups: macromedia.dreamweaver
Subject: Re: OT: Vote on Persistent Scrollbars
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:22:40 -0600
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Murray *TMM* says:
> Jerry:
>
> Does this reflect a bias toward Mac in the Mozilla development team, do you
> think?
Notice the email address of the person who said it was going to have to
be the same for all platforms. As I stated in the bug, it seems like an
underhanded way to force everyone to live with your own personal
preferences.
--
Jerry Baker