Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!
mailrus!ames!pasteur!ucbvax!decwrl!sun!pepper!cmcmanis
From: cmcmanis%pep...@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: The Amiga is loosing ground to I*M and A*ple...
Keywords: Sad
Message-ID: <64123@sun.uucp>
Date: 14 Aug 88 07:14:33 GMT
References: <2160@ssc-vax.UUCP>
Sender: n...@sun.uucp
Reply-To: cmcma...@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis)
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mountain View
Lines: 25
In article <2...@ssc-vax.UUCP> d...@ssc-vax.UUCP (David Geary) writes:
>3) The Amiga is loosing ground to the new IBM's and the Mac II.
You make a very naive statement here. For the Amiga to lose ground to
the Mac II and the 386 clones they have to be in the same league. What
you fail to realize is
THESE ARE NOT COMPARABLE SYSTEMS.
Period, by any measure the stock Amiga is less powerful than a 32 bit
16 - 25Mhz machine. Are we suprised? Would you say that the Mazda RX-7
is losing market share to the Porches and Ferraris? No, you wouldn't
even bother comparing them ? The fact that people (including Mac II and
PS/2 model 80 owners) *feel the need* to compare them should give you
and indication of what we have always realized. The Amiga is the best
computer in it's class. You will also notice that no one compares the
Atari ST to the Mac II, or the '386 boxes. Illuminating no? So if Commodore
decides to build a machine in the same league as the Mac II and the
'386 boxes they probably call it the Amiga 3000 and build in an '030 and
with fast 32 bit RAM. Until then, comparing the stock Amiga 2000 is
simply flattery as far as I am concerned.
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcma...@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!ucbvax!decwrl!sun!aeras!edc
From: e...@aeras.UUCP (news guest account)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: The Amiga is loosing ground to I*M and A*ple...
Keywords: Sad
Message-ID: <253@aeras.UUCP>
Date: 15 Aug 88 00:58:23 GMT
References: <2160@ssc-vax.UUCP>
Reply-To: e...@aeras.UUCP (news guest account)
Organization: Arete Systems, Inc. San Jose, CA.
Lines: 50
In article <2...@ssc-vax.UUCP> d...@ssc-vax.UUCP (David Geary) writes:
>
> Well, I've been watching the Mac II bashing, etc. discussion with interest,
>and no matter whether the Mac II is too expensive, does not have a blitter,
>can't do this or that as well as the Amiga, etc. when you get down to the
>nitty gritty, here are the facts:
>
>1) Mac II is made by Apple.
>2) Because of 1) alone, it can be expected to do quite well.
>3) The Amiga is loosing ground to the new IBM's and the Mac II.
>
> Yes, the Amiga may very well be superior to both the Mac II and IBM's in
>many areas. Yes the Mac II is *way* overpriced compared to the Amiga. Yes,
>the Amiga is the *only* pc you can buy that can multitask with it's *native*
>operating system, ad infinitum...
>
> However, the fact remains that the Amiga is loosing ground. The huge
>gap (technically speaking) between the Amiga and "the rest" is closing.
Just who are Amiga's competitors anyway? It sure ain't Apple and Sun...
I question if IBM worries about them.
The only competitor I can see is Atari. At least I get to see Atari at
UNIX trade shows... Amiga? Never!
> BTW, I have had my Amiga since day one. It's sad to see the Amiga's
>edge wither away...
Me too, I sold mine about a year ago. Glad I did. I KNOW those slimeballs
would be REALLY secretive about an A1000 > A2000 upgrade. I should have
known better to think that scummy edge connector on the side of the A1000
was a bus.
Damn interesting machine though. The sh*t will really hit the fan if
when Apple drops the price of the MacII. I suspect that CBM is lose it
in about a year or two. Atari won't let Amiga be. Sam and Jack want
blood...
By the way? anybody got sales figures for Word Perfect on the Amiga?
I'll bet they suck. Can somebody name a major applications product that
is selling well on Amiga? Face it, Hackers buy Amigas. POOR hackers who
can't afford Macs. A "Hobbyist's" computer can't expect to compete with
business machines. That happens only once in a lifetime. That was Apple.
How about some Mega-ST bashing eh?
-edc-
th: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!mailrus!
ames!pasteur!ucbvax!CORY.BERKELEY.EDU!dillon
From: dil...@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: The Amiga is loosing ground to I*M and A*ple...
Message-ID: <8808150954.AA17792@cory.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 15 Aug 88 09:54:34 GMT
Sender: use...@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 12
>> BTW, I have had my Amiga since day one. It's sad to see the Amiga's
>>edge wither away...
>
>Me too, I sold mine about a year ago. Glad I did. I KNOW those slimeballs
You know they're getting restless when they resort to such (insert
favorite explitive here) tactics. Please send your best flames to this
guy personaly rather than waste netband repeating his words in '>'s.
>
>-edc-
-Matt
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!sco!brianm
From: bri...@sco.COM (Brian Moffet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Loosing Ground and the Hedley Monitor
Keywords: Amiga and stuffs
Message-ID: <765@viscous>
Date: 16 Aug 88 16:28:36 GMT
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Lines: 32
I believe that the amiga may be losing ground to the MAC
and IBM crowd, but only due to the low color resolution,
and only in the graphics/OS area. Personally, I want high res
graphics, I really don't give a flying pixel about animation.
However, I do not see what I want coming out of the Mac nd
IBM market either. What I see is more possibility out of this
market.
However, the Hedley monitor shows extreme promise. I would just like
to see it better. This may not be possible with the current chip set
of the Amiga. In order for me to consider a monochrome monitor
I want to see 1024x1024 or better (preferably better). Grey
scale is a good thing though, making the Hedley a possibilty.
By the By, would someone mail me with a fairly detailed description
of how the monitor would work and hook up to an Ami 1000? Questions
in particular are:
Can I still use my color monitor at the same time?
(sort of like control with color, draw on mono)
thanks much
PS.
I fully realize the amiga was not completely designed
as a work station, but this is where it is being compared.
I will probably still own my amiga 1000 until it dies.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Brian Moffet bri...@sco.com {ucscc,uunet,decvax!microsof}!sco!brianm
My opinions do not in any way reflect those of my employer or my fish.
'Evil Geniuses for a Better Tommorrow!'
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!husc6!mailrus!cornell!uw-beaver!fluke!ssc-vax!dmg
From: d...@ssc-vax.UUCP (David Geary)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: The Amiga is Loosing Ground...
Keywords: Lock, locksmith, door, security, lost my keys, boats, canals,...
Message-ID: <2167@ssc-vax.UUCP>
Date: 16 Aug 88 21:02:39 GMT
Organization: Boeing Aerospace Corp., Seattle WA
Lines: 62
In article <64...@sun.uucp> (Chuck McManis) writes:
>In article <2...@ssc-vax.UUCP> d...@ssc-vax.UUCP (David Geary) writes:
>>3) The Amiga is loosing ground to the new IBM's and the Mac II.
>
>You make a very naive statement here. For the Amiga to lose ground to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thank you ;-)
>the Mac II and the 386 clones they have to be in the same league. What
They may not be in the "same league", however, they do compete
*directly* against the Amiga in the marketplace.
>Period, by any measure the stock Amiga is less powerful than a 32 bit
>16 - 25Mhz machine. Are we suprised? Would you say that the Mazda RX-7
>is losing market share to the Porches and Ferraris? No, you wouldn't
>even bother comparing them ? The fact that people (including Mac II and
I'd rather have a Mazda RX-7 than a Porsche ;-)
>PS/2 model 80 owners) *feel the need* to compare them should give you
>and indication of what we have always realized. The Amiga is the best
>computer in it's class. You will also notice that no one compares the
>Atari ST to the Mac II, or the '386 boxes. Illuminating no? So if Commodore
>decides to build a machine in the same league as the Mac II and the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>'386 boxes they probably call it the Amiga 3000 and build in an '030 and
^^^^^^^^^^
That's just my point. The Amiga needs to be able to compete against
the Mac II and '386's. The Amiga line needs a high-end machine,
like the A3000. BTW:
1) Where IS the A2500UX?
2) Where IS the A2500AT?
3) Where IS the A3000?
4) Where IS NeWS on the Amiga?
5) Where IS X windows on the Amiga?
6) Where IS Un*x for the Amiga?
7) Where IS an inexpensive laser printer for the Amiga.
Or, maybe something a little easier: where is 1.3 of the Amiga OS?
Hey, if Commodore can't get 1.3 out the door within a *reasonable*
amount of time, how are they going to get Unix out the door within
the next millennium? How are they going to produce new hardware
(A2500, A3000, etc)? How are they going to support NeWS, X Windows,
ad on infinitum (and ad nausea, too).
My whole point in starting this discussion is this: when the Amiga
first came out, it was *better* than anything you could buy for
under $100,000,000,000. (You mean you didn't read the first few
issues of AmigaWhirld?) Now the gap is closing, and, you can
actually get something *better* for under $100,000,000,000. I'd love to
see the gap widen again. Plain and simple.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ David Geary, Boeing Aerospace, ~
~ Seattle - "THE DRIZZLE CAPITAL OF THE WORLD" ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!husc6!purdue!decwrl!tle.dec.com!rmeyers
From: rmey...@tle.dec.com (Randy Meyers 381-2743 ZKO2-3/N30)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: The Amiga is loosing ground to I*B and A*ple...
Message-ID: <8808162346.AA27542@decwrl.dec.com>
Date: 16 Aug 88 23:46:58 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 119
decwrl!sun!aeras!edc writes:
>Just who are Amiga's competitors anyway? It sure ain't Apple and Sun...
>I question if IBM worries about them.
Commodore has stated several times that it targets the Amiga against
IBM and Apple. Those are the companies that have the markets Commodore
wants to sell to; those are the companies that sell machines that
roughly correspond in power to Amigas.
Don't make the same mistake that many people here have lately. The Amiga
isn't positioned against the '020 and '386 machines. The bulk of computers
sold are still the midrange 68000 and 80286. The Amiga compares favorably
against those machine. I would do an even swap of my Amiga for a
MAC II; I wouldn't swap for a MAC SE.
It is reasonable to position an Amiga 2000 against the '020 and '386
machines in certain situations. For example, in desktop video having
a display resolution much different from the Amiga's is a great drawback
since a television display is an overscan interlaced Amiga display. The
typical display hardware for a MAC II is just all wrong for that
application (thought its great for desktop publishing).
It is even reasonable to position an Amiga 2000 with an accelerator card
against '020 and '386 machines for many compute bound applications.
>The only competitor I can see is Atari. At least I get to see Atari at
>UNIX trade shows... Amiga? Never!
Atari has a strong reputation for demoing a lot of non-products. Just
because Atari goes to a few shows with a few demos does not mean that
they will or can produce such a product. Of course, this is true for
any manufacturer (including Commodore).
For what its worth, Commodore has been demoing its System V on a 2000
with the Commodore '020 board. You just don't go to the right shows.
>> BTW, I have had my Amiga since day one. It's sad to see the Amiga's
>>edge wither away...
>
>Me too, I sold mine about a year ago. Glad I did.
The Amiga's is gone when you class it as a absolute top of the line
personal computer. However, when considered to be a mid-range pc
in the class with the Mac SE, MAC plus, IBM clones, XT and AT, and low
end to middle PS/2 machines it is a strong contender. It's still
the sharpest machine around in its class.
>I KNOW those slimeballs would be REALLY secretive about an A1000 > A2000
>upgrade.
Slightly after the Amiga 2000 and 500 were announced, Commodore put
on a show for the combined Boston Computer Society. At that meeting,
a Commodore representative stated that they were considering the
A1000 + $1000 = A2000 upgrade. This statement made it out to comp.sys.amiga
by the end of the evening. All of this occurred a few months before
the machine was selling in the United States. At the same time the
2000 made it to the store shelves, Commodore officially announced
the upgrade program. The tradeup program was announced in all the
magazines (before that it was rumored in all the magazines). All the
dealers knew about it. The trade-up program was extended at least twice.
Anyone who was minimally active in the Amiga community knew about it.
>Damn interesting machine though. The sh*t will really hit the fan if
>when Apple drops the price of the MacII.
Of course the Amiga will disappear if the MAC II is priced at about the
Amiga's level. However, if the market warrants the MAC II's price taking
a plunge low enough to affect Amiga sales (we are talking major drop
here), the same forces would cause the price of the Amiga to drop.
The MAC II just doesn't effect Amiga sales very much; the machines
are in different ecological niches. You might as well say that if
cows ate plankton whales would die off.
There is one market force that allows the MAC II to steal Amiga sales.
There are a percentage of pc users that need and have the money to buy
more expensive hardware then is currently available. Those people always
jump to the new fastest machine when it becomes available. However,
they are not all of the market.
The market supports machines targeted at several different levels. Did
you notice that when IBM threw out their old models and introduced the
PS/2 line that not all of the new machines had '386 CPUs? Did you notice
that one of the machines was the moral equivalent of a slightly jazzed
up XT? Do you think that IBM knows something about computer marketing
and what products sell?
>I suspect that CBM is lose it in about a year or two.
Commodore will lose big if they sell today's products in two years. So
will every other manufacturer. The Amiga was introduced as a high end
pc. However, Commodore botched the marketing and botched the expansion
ability of the machine. Commodore was able to correct the problem and
reincarnate the Amiga as a powerful but medium level machine. That
means in two years that they will have to come out with a significantly
more powerful machine to hold on to middle level status or aspire to high
end status. They could keep the current Amiga around as an inexpensive
"toy" computer.
>By the way? anybody got sales figures for Word Perfect on the Amiga?
>I'll bet they suck.
WordPerfect is delighted with their Amiga sales figures. An official at
WordPerfect has been quoted in saying that they took a lot of ribbing
when they started their Amiga division, but it has proved to be so
lucrative that some other "big name" companies are considering getting
into the Amiga business. Interestingly enough, I've seen several WordPerfect
Corp advertisements looking for Amiga programmers (perhaps the most
concrete sign that the Amiga business is good).
>Face it, Hackers buy Amigas. POOR hackers who can't afford Macs.
Funny, most of the Amiga hackers I know could afford could afford
a MAC II.
----------------------------------------
Randy Meyers, not representing Digital Equipment Corporation
USENET: {decwrl|decvax|decuac}!tle.dec.com!rmeyers
ARPA: rmeyers%tle.dec....@decwrl.dec.com
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!husc6!think!ames!oliveb!sun!pepper!cmcmanis
From: cmcmanis%pep...@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Product Marketing Tutorial (was Re: The Amiga is Loosing Ground...)
Summary: Explanation of how I define markets
Keywords: Lock, locksmith, door, security, lost my keys, boats, canals,...
Message-ID: <64636@sun.uucp>
Date: 17 Aug 88 21:14:12 GMT
References: <2167@ssc-vax.UUCP>
Sender: n...@sun.uucp
Reply-To: cmcma...@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis)
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mountain View
Lines: 141
[well, it was in response to my posting ...]
I wrote :
> the Mac II and the 386 clones they have to be in the same league.
In article <2...@ssc-vax.UUCP> (David Geary) responded with :
> They may not be in the "same league", however, they do compete
> *directly* against the Amiga in the marketplace.
David, and to others reading this, from a marketing perspective they
do not compete. The marketing people (and myself) divide computers up
into several classes, and primarily these classes are delimited by
PRICE. They are subdivided by PERFORMANCE, and then further subdivided
by CAPABILITIES. When a person is going to make a computer purchase
they do have REQUIREMENTS, STANDARDS, and a BUDGET. (you will note the
inverse relationship here) And a customer will (by definition) buy the
system that has the best CAPABILITIES and PERFORMANCE and are within
his or her BUDGET. Taking this to a real world example, suppose that
a customer has $16,000, wants to do desktop video and publishing, and
wants to do 60 frame/second animation. He considers all of the machines
that fit within his budget and buys a Mac II or 386 clone. He has to
because it is the best match for his criteria. Now give the same person
a budget of $5000 and he buys an Amiga. The difference is his budget.
The fact that earlier the Amiga could do things that a $20,000 system
couldn't was more an indication that the Amiga was underpriced than
anything else. If the customers REQUIREMENTS were that the computer
support a multitasking operating system that could run in 1 megabyte
of memory it would eliminate the Mac II and the 386 boxes from the
competition, but here the difference is the REQUIREMENTS. Which are
fundamental to any computer marketing strategy. This is all basic
product marketing stuff. Every engineer should have at least some
understanding of it if they want to build products that fall into
a saleable category. The other case would be to build a $5000 video
game machine (which one company in Ventura did once) And while it
admirably met the REQUIREMENTS and PERFORMANCE, specs of the customers
most had budgets under $500 and all had budgets of under $1000 at
the time. So no one bought it.
> The Amiga line needs a high-end machine, like the A3000.
This statement needs to be backed up with "Here is are the REQUIREMENTS
and STANDARDS the customer has set forth, and here is their BUDGET."
Looking at the Mac II and 386 customers one could reasonably guess
that some (but not all) of them would have bought an Amiga if the
Mac II or 386 box was not available. And that their budget was
more than $10,000 for the complete machine. Now working backward from
that you try to decide how many would have bought an Amiga and therefore
the size of the market, then calculate the gross margins needed on the
box to pay for the development, and figure out what the target unit cost
should be (in this case probably $2000) And after preparing for what
Apple and IBM will drop into the pipeline in the 12 to 24 months of
development time you figure out what features it will need, and then
you spend the 20 million or so to get it developed. (I'm using a projected
market of 100,000 units in the first year and a development margin of
$200 (which means that after cost of parts, labor, overhead and support
there is $200 profit from the sale of this mythical box to pay off that
development debt)) Not an easy job but that is why you need a strategic
marketing group.
>BTW:
> 1) Where IS the A2500UX?
> 2) Where IS the A2500AT?
Where should they be? Both were displayed as "technology previews" by the
German arm of Commodore, neither was announced as a real product. My
guess is that by Christmas you will be able to buy the add-in products
to make your system into one of these but I don't expect them to be marketed
as a seperate Amiga per se.
> 3) Where IS the A3000?
Deep in the subconcious of Dave Haynie I suspect. Actually, it is probably
in development, and if they started last year I would expect it by Christmas
of *next* year.
> 4) Where IS NeWS on the Amiga?
Ameristar has it and was showing it off at Siggraph. Why not ask them?
> 5) Where IS X windows on the Amiga?
Dale was doing the same for X11, again he should answer if he chooses to.
> 6) Where IS Un*x for the Amiga?
In a trashbin somewhere? :-) If you want UNIX why not buy a Sun? Even with
an Amiga 3000 there is no way Commodore can make a better UNIX system than
the Sun 3/60. You're looking at $10K either way. And the Sun comes with
ethernet. If you want UNIX cheap why not buy a UNIX-PC from AT&T? The
question is "What is your REQUIREMENT, and what is you BUDGET?" If it's
UNIX and $2K then buy a PC clone and get MINIX for it. Hell, get the
BridgeBoard and run MINIX on it! Better yet, get the AT bridgeboard and
run SCO Xenix on it! The point is, it is pretty silly for Commodore to
try to become a UNIX supplier. They don't have the resources to support
two OSes and frankly I would rather not see UNIX and have AmigaDOS well
supported than to see UNIX and AmigaDOS supported poorly or not at all.
> 7) Where IS an inexpensive laser printer for the Amiga.
It's at a computer store near you, it's called an HP LaserJet II and it
costs less on the street than an AtariLaser. Jade computers was selling
a Genicom Laser printer for $995. Is that inexpensive enough?
> Or, maybe something a little easier: where is 1.3 of the Amiga OS?
Actually, that is the toughest since the only answer is that it is stuck
in a broken release process as Commodore trys to become a software company
too.
> Hey, if Commodore can't get 1.3 out the door within a *reasonable*
> amount of time, how are they going to get Unix out the door within
> the next millennium?
You answer your own question, they aren't. Why wait? If you really want
UNIX buy a UNIX box. If you want a UNIX box that does desktop video
well, you either have to pay a lot or wait, what other choice do you
have ? Do you have any idea how many people it takes to port, customize,
and maintain a UNIX port to internal hardware? Do you know how many
people Commodore has working on software only ? I think that is a pretty
good definition of a millennium.
> How are they going to produce new hardware (A2500, A3000, etc)?
That is what they are set up for, I suspect this is what they will do best.
They do have a problem with getting "finished" hardware into production it's
true.
> How are they going to support NeWS, X Windows,
> ad on infinitum (and ad nausea, too).
They aren't, they will rely on third parties like Ameristar and Boing Inc.
> My whole point in starting this discussion is this: when the Amiga
> first came out, it was *better* than anything you could buy for
> under $100,000,000,000. (You mean you didn't read the first few
> issues of AmigaWhirld?) Now the gap is closing, and, you can
> actually get something *better* for under $100,000,000,000. I'd love to
> see the gap widen again. Plain and simple.
Only way to do this is pick a new market. See once the secret is out that
people will pay for the ability to do 3d animations on their desktop,
a company like Apple with 600 million in cash in the bank simply says
"Hey, lets spend 15 or 20 million and see if we can't get some of this
market." And they did, and they did.
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcma...@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: The Amiga is loosing ground to I*M and A*ple...
Message-ID: <4517@cbmvax.UUCP>
Date: 18 Aug 88 22:20:24 GMT
References: <253@aeras.UUCP>
Organization: Commodore Technology, West Chester, PA
Lines: 32
in article <2...@aeras.UUCP>, e...@aeras.UUCP (news guest account) says:
> Keywords: Sad
> Just who are Amiga's competitors anyway? It sure ain't Apple and Sun...
> I question if IBM worries about them.
I don't know who worries, but you're being annoyingly American in this
analysis. Commodore sells more PERSONAL COMPUTERs in Europe than Apple, and
more PERSONAL COMPUTERs in Germany than IBM. Or Sun, for that matter.
Over 1/2 of these are Amigas. Poof!
> Damn interesting machine though. The sh*t will really hit the fan if
> when Apple drops the price of the MacII. I suspect that CBM is lose it
> in about a year or two. Atari won't let Amiga be. Sam and Jack want
> blood...
Atari's certainly BEEN letting Amiga be. Not to mention most of their
customers. Considering Amiga software sales are up 84% over last year,
while Atari ST sales are down around 45%, I think a few other folks have
noticed this too.
> By the way? anybody got sales figures for Word Perfect on the Amiga?
They sold enough copies of Word Perfect quickly, like in it's first month
on the market, to pay for the Amiga port. I use it myself; nice word
processor (fast, that's what counts here).
> -edc-
--
Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests"
{ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy
"I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!cbmvax!ditto
From: di...@cbmvax.UUCP (Michael "Ford" Ditto)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Product Marketing Tutorial (was Re: The Amiga is Loosing Ground...)
Summary: Foonix
Keywords: unix
Message-ID: <4521@cbmvax.UUCP>
Date: 19 Aug 88 05:10:36 GMT
References: <2167@ssc-vax.UUCP> <64636@sun.uucp>
Reply-To: di...@cbmvax.UUCP (Michael "Ford" Ditto)
Organization: Commodore Technology, West Chester, PA
Lines: 50
Disclaimer: This message contains personal opinions and not much else.
In article <64...@sun.uucp> cmcma...@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes:
>> 6) Where IS Un*x for the Amiga?
>In a trashbin somewhere? :-) If you want UNIX why not buy a Sun? Even with
>an Amiga 3000 there is no way Commodore can make a better UNIX system than
>the Sun 3/60.
Depends on what you mean by "better". How about faster, cheaper, and
compatible with Amiga software? There's also the European market which,
for whatever reason, likes System V. If you took generic System V and
put it on an Amiga with no windows, no mouse, no nothin', you could
sell it in Euroupe.
> You're looking at $10K either way. And the Sun comes with
>ethernet.
I'm pretty sure an Amiga with Unix and ethernet won't cost $10K. If it
turns out to cost that much, you're certainly right about it not being
an alternative to Sun.
> If you want UNIX cheap why not buy a UNIX-PC from AT&T?
I have a UNIX-PC that I bought with money I had saved up to buy an
Amiga 2000. I like it very much, but I'm sure the Amiga will be
so much more valuable (in terms of performance, expandability,
features, support, etc.) that I'll end up upgrading. There is a
market for cheap unix, but not THAT cheap (when you buy a Unix
machine for $1500 you suffer in ways other than original price).
> Do you have any idea how many people it takes to port, customize,
>and maintain a UNIX port to internal hardware?
I don't think the hardware aspects of the port are what needs to be
worried about; Unix is pretty portable these days in those respects.
What will take a lot of work is getting Unix into a form that lives
up to the existing Amiga software -- things like user interface,
windowing systems, and support for third party hardware and software.
It's these things that will (or won't) make the Amiga something other
than "just another Un*x box".
Another Disclaimer: I am working for Commodore, but the above ravings
are entirely my own invention and may or may not bear any relation to
any official policy of Commodore.
--
-=] Ford [=-
. . (In Real Life: Mike Ditto)
. : , f...@kenobi.cts.com
This space under construction, ...!ucsd!elgar!ford
pardon our dust. di...@cbmvax.commodore.com
Path: utzoo!utgpu!attcan!uunet!husc6!uwvax!oddjob!gargoyle!att!ihnp4!ihlpm!jmdavis
From: jmda...@ihlpm.ATT.COM (Davis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: The Amiga is loosing (sic) ground to I*M and A*ple...
Keywords: NOT Sad, Help out!!!!!
Message-ID: <2247@ihlpm.ATT.COM>
Date: 19 Aug 88 16:15:32 GMT
References: <2160@ssc-vax.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories - Naperville, Illinois
Lines: 27
In article <2...@ssc-vax.UUCP>, d...@ssc-vax.UUCP (David Geary) writes:
>
> 1) Mac II is made by Apple.
> 2) Because of 1) alone, it can be expected to do quite well.
Now, wait a minute, we as users (and the free fanatical advertisers
for CBM) have a great say in the future of the Amiga. After all
Apple went through the same rough time introducing their "new"
OS and it finally caught on. We ought to be able to do the same.
Commodore has two ways to go, either really goose up the desk top
video stuff so that the Amiga N000 isn't really useful to hacker
types (except for video hackers) or go complete compatability with
IBM _and_ MAC. Business types (and me too for that matter) like to
be able to use their old hardware and not have much hassle with
compatibility issues.
Let's face facts Amiga is cheap compared to these other systems, its
graphics are quite good, but IBM with proper HW and MAC II are better
in some areas. Amigas networking with MAC II's for a good cheap graphic
environment would be ideal for some applications.
--
________________________________________
This space would have been | Mike Davis
LEFT INTENTIONALLY BLANK | ihnp4!ihlpm!jmdavis
had I not written in it. |_________________________
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!lll-tis!ames!mailrus!cornell!uw-beaver!
tikal!sigma!uw-nsr!uw-warp!gtisqr!rick
From: r...@gtisqr.UUCP (Rick Groeneveld)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: The Amiga is loosing ground to I*M and A*ple...
Summary: Since when?
Message-ID: <429@gt-ford.gtisqr.UUCP>
Date: 26 Aug 88 21:17:07 GMT
References: <253@aeras.UUCP> <4517@cbmvax.UUCP>
Organization: Global Tech, Mukilteo, WA
Lines: 6
In article <4...@cbmvax.UUCP>, da...@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes:
> They sold enough copies of Word Perfect quickly, like in it's first month
> on the market, to pay for the Amiga port. I use it myself; nice word
> processor (fast, that's what counts here).
While WP _is_ a very powerful word processor, it is
also, painfully ssssslllllooooowwww!
Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!ucbvax!hplabs!pyramid!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: The Amiga is loosing ground to I*M and A*ple...
Message-ID: <4600@cbmvax.UUCP>
Date: 30 Aug 88 20:01:14 GMT
References: <429@gt-ford.gtisqr.UUCP>
Organization: Commodore Technology, West Chester, PA
Lines: 31
in article <4...@gt-ford.gtisqr.UUCP>, r...@gtisqr.UUCP (Rick Groeneveld) says:
> Summary: Since when?
> In article <4...@cbmvax.UUCP>, da...@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes:
>> They sold enough copies of Word Perfect quickly, like in it's first month
>> on the market, to pay for the Amiga port. I use it myself; nice word
>> processor (fast, that's what counts here).
> While WP _is_ a very powerful word processor, it is
> also, painfully ssssslllllooooowwww!
While it's rather slow at producing an output file, the screen display is
nice and fast. That's what I care about, that it can keep up with my typing
at least as well as Emacs or something of that kind.
As far as power goes, I put it in the "pretty powerful" category. It
certainly doesn't do as much as TeX, Scribe, or even nroff will, but of
course you don't really have to compile it either. Sure beats most of
the other Amiga WPs I've used so far; a good portion of them can't handle
automatic footnotes, section numbering or index generation. WordPerfect
certainly isn't ideal; I'd like more WYSIWYG, smarter document structuring,
tree-structured files, automatic item lists, etc. Maybe a mix of
WordPerfect and Mentor's DOC would be ideal.
As far as WordPerfect the company goes, I wish every company supported their
software as well. I know if I buy something from WordPerfect, it'll do what
I want it to do, I'll be able to figure out how to do it, easily, from the
manual, and if there's a bug, they'll fix it for me, given the feedback.
--
Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests"
{ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy
"I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"