Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!wuarchive!udel!mmdf
From: WD...@ccvax.iastate.edu (NetMonster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: AMIGA Fading?
Message-ID: <3932@nigel.udel.EDU>
Date: 12 Nov 89 16:44:37 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 37
Like it or not, the Amiga is fading, and fading fast. The Amiga's main
competition -- cheap IBM clones -- have largely caught up to the Amiga
in multitasking capability and ease-of-use. The gap between the Amiga
and its closest rival in features i
The following article is from the October 1989 issue of TIME (P. 72):
"The twin fetes had all the glitz and hoopla of a Hollywood premiere.
Champagne flowed freely, and soft jazz whispered in the background.
Guests nibbled on caviar and smoked-salmon quiche. The big bashes,
which took place on the same day this mont
"In this case, the focus of attention was the Amiga, a personal computer
introduced by Commodore four years ago, whose sagging sales and fading
image the company is trying to repair."
Yes, the Amiga's image is fading. But Commodore can resurrect the Amiga's
image very easily. Here is what Commodore needs to do: IT IS TIME FOR
COMMODORE TO TOTALLY ABANDON THE 68000 MICROPROCESSOR, FOR ALL MODELS OF
THE AMIGA.
The OEM price of the 68020 and 68881 chips has fallen to the price of the
68000 when the Amiga 1000 was first introduced. It is now possible for
Commodore to get these chips in large quantities from Motorola or Hitachi
for less than $50 each.
Commodore should start immediate development of machines to replace the
Amiga 500 and Amiga 2000 when the O.S. 1.4 is finished. These models
should be improved with the following features:
(1) 512K of ROM, containing all of Workbench and AmigaDOS, as well as all
the system libraries and devices. This should be done to compete with
Commodore's closest competition -- Tandy and Headstart -- which also produce
computers with their operating
(2) 1.76MB floppy drive, to upgrade the Amiga's storage capabilities and
also allow the Amiga to read IBM 1.44MB disks.
(3)68020 running at 14Mhz. The replacement for the A500 should include a
socket for the 68881. The replacement for the B2000 should include the 68881.
(4) The memory should be configured such that all memory is 32-bit RAM, but
the custom chips would access the first 1M as 16-bit RAM. I have looked at
the architecture, and I don't see any reason why this isn't possible.
(5) Use the new Enhanced Chip Set (of course).
(6) The Amiga 500 replacement should have 1M of RAM. The B2000 replacement
should have 2M of RAM.
(7) The B2000 replacement should have 32-bit ZORRO-III slots. The replacement
for the A500 should have a 32-bit side expansion port.
I don't want anyone to tell me that it isn't possible for CBM to sell a
complete 68020 system for less than $1500, and still make a very substantiale
profit on it. Hell, if an engineer friend of mine can turn an Amiga 1000 into
a 68020 system (using
Commodore has no choice about this. They can put it off until the last minute
-- until 486 systems are available cheap, and such an introduction of
68020-based systems would get absolutely no attention anywhere -- or they can
do it now, when such s
-MB-
Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!usc!samsung!
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From: r...@auc.UUCP (Rodney Ricks)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: AMIGA Fading?
Summary: Fading? How so?
Message-ID: <32321@auc.UUCP>
Date: 14 Nov 89 21:16:21 GMT
References: <3932@nigel.udel.EDU>
Reply-To: r...@auc.UUCP (Rodney Ricks)
Organization: Atlanta University Center, Atlanta, Ga.
Lines: 145
In article <3...@nigel.udel.EDU> WD...@ccvax.iastate.edu (NetMonster) writes:
>
> Like it or not, the Amiga is fading, and fading fast.
How do you come to that conclusion?
> ... The Amiga's main competition -- cheap IBM clones -- have largely
> caught up to the Amiga in multitasking capability and ease-of-use.
True, there are cheap IBM clones, and true, some PCs can multitask as well
and be as easy to use as an Amiga, but the statement as a whole is not true.
An IBM PC Compatible with multitasking, ease-of-use, and the performance and
capabilities of an Amiga is still an expensive system, much more expensive
than a comparable Amiga system.
> The gap between the Amiga and its closest rival in features i
(The above was probably chopped off because the line was longer than 256
characters long)
The gap is large, in terms of price. It's shrinking, but it's still large.
>
> The following article is from the October 1989 issue of TIME (P. 72):
>
> "The twin fetes had all the glitz and hoopla of a Hollywood premiere.
[glitz deleted]
>
> "In this case, the focus of attention was the Amiga, a personal computer
> introduced by Commodore four years ago, whose sagging sales and fading
> image the company is trying to repair."
SAGGING sales? FADING image??? Where does this guy get his information from?
Why do you believe it just because it's in Time Magazine???
From what I've heard, the Amiga's sales having been RISING recently, not
sagging. They have been lagging behind the Mac and the PC Clones in sales, but
that's not what was said.
The Mac's sales have been lagging behind those of PC Clones. Should we say
that the Mac's future is in trouble becuase of this?
> Yes, the Amiga's image is fading.
No, the Amiga's image is NOT fading. In fact, it is rising dramatically. It
is being used by graphic artists, for titling movies, by medical students at
UCLA, by scientists and secretaries at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center,
and in many other places for many different things.
More and more, I run into people who have heard about the Amiga, and know that
it is not just a game machine.
Even Atari ST fans seem to see the Amiga in a better light! :-)
> Yes, the Amiga's image is fading. But Commodore can resurrect the Amiga's
> image very easily. Here is what Commodore needs to do: IT IS TIME FOR
> COMMODORE TO TOTALLY ABANDON THE 68000 MICROPROCESSOR, FOR ALL MODELS
> OF THE AMIGA.
Yeah, right. Watch most games break, and many other programs, and prices
shoot throught the ceiling.
Great move. Then people will be talking about about how buggy it is ("look
at all of these programs that don't work!").
> The OEM price of the 68020 and 68881 chips has fallen to the price of the
> 68000 when the Amiga 1000 was first introduced.
What about the price of the support chips needed to make a 68020 look enough
like a 68000 to work with the rest of the system? Also remember that the
Amiga 1000 came out at $1200 dollars. With 256K.
The low-end system needs to be priced lower than that.
> ... It is now possible for Commodore to get these chips in large quantities
> from Motorola or Hitachi for less than $50 each.
They'd have to either include all of the circuitry to make the 68020 look like
a 68000, or design a new board. How much would that cost?
To get any speed increase, they would either have to have some memory besides
chip RAM in the system, and make that extra memory 32-bit RAM. If they
increase the clock rate, they would have to use faster RAM chips to get a
proportional speed increase, at a greatly increased cost.
> Commodore should start immediate development of machines to replace the
>Amiga 500 and Amiga 2000 when the O.S. 1.4 is finished. These models should
>be improved with the following features:
>
>(1) 512K of ROM, containing all of Workbench and AmigaDOS, as well as all
>the system libraries and devices. This should be done to compete with
>Commodore's closest competition -- Tandy and Headstart -- which also produce
>computers with their operating
>
>(2) 1.76MB floppy drive, to upgrade the Amiga's storage capabilities and
> also allow the Amiga to read IBM 1.44MB disks.
This is a GOOD idea. Of course, I think it would be a good idea to include
a (suitably debugged) CrossDOS with the OS.
>(3)68020 running at 14Mhz.
Doubling the clock rate requires faster RAM chips to double system speed.
The '020 would STILL have to slow down to access Chip RAM, unless you're
going to make the Graphics chip run at twice the speed.
>(4) The memory should be configured such that all memory is 32-bit RAM,
>but the custom chips would access the first 1M as 16-bit RAM. I have looked
>at the architecture, and I don't see any reason why this isn't possible.
I don't know enough about the hardware to argue that point, so I won't.
>(6) The Amiga 500 replacement should have 1M of RAM.
I think 1 Mb standard for the 500 would be a good idea. Someone should
at LEAST run a cost-benfit analysis of it.
> I don't want anyone to tell me that it isn't possible for CBM to sell
>a complete 68020 system for less than $1500, and still make a very
>substantiale profit on it. Hell, if an engineer friend of mine can turn
>an Amiga 1000 into a 68020 system (using
I'll let Commodore handle this one. Are you there, Dave?
What I think would be better is this:
A 500-level machine with a seperate keyboard, an Agnus chip that stays
in place, and A GOOD POWER SUPPLY,
and a 2000-level machine (in terms of price) running off a 68020. The
'020 based 2500 would do nicely (although that would be a difficult feat,
price-wise).
One more thing, *Bring on the '030 machines!!!*
In summary, I don't think the Amiga's image (or sales) can be said to be
fading at all. The competition is gaining on us, but that doesn't mean that
the Amiga is fading image-wise.
> -MB-
Rodney
--
"We may have come over here in different ships,
but we're all in the same boat now." -- Jesse Jackson
Rodney Ricks, Morehouse College
Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!
udel!mmdf
From: WD...@ccvax.iastate.edu (NetMonster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: AMIGA Fading?
Message-ID: <4105@nigel.udel.EDU>
Date: 15 Nov 89 02:52:38 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 88
Like it or not, the Amiga is fading, and fading fast. The
Amiga's main competition -- cheap IBM clones -- have largely
caught up to the Amiga in multitasking capability and
ease-of-use. The gap between the Amiga and its closest rival in
features is getting closer and closer.
The following article is from the October 1989 issue of TIME
(P. 72):
"The twin fetes had all the glitz and hoopla of a Hollywood
premiere. Champagne flowed freely, and soft jazz whispered in
the background. Guests nibbled on caviar and smoked-salmon
quiche. The big bashes, which took place on the same day this
month in New York City and Los Angeles, were staged by Commodore
Business Machines to kick off a $15 million advertizing compaign,
]tarring celebrities ranging from the Pointer Sisters to Tommy
Lasorda, manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers. But instead of
coming off as a preview, the even seemed more like a benefit for
an aging star.
"In this case, the focus of attention was the Amiga, a personal
computer introduced by Commodore four years ago, whose sagging
sales and fading image the company is trying to repair."
Yes, the Amiga's image is fading. But Commodore can resurrect
the Amiga's image very easily. Here is what Commodore needs to
do: IT IS TIME FOR COMMODORE TO TOTALLY ABANDON THE 68000
MICROPROCESSOR, FOR ALL MODELS OF THE AMIGA.
The OEM price of the 68020 and 68881 chips has fallen to the
price of the 68000 when the Amiga 1000 was first introduced. It
]s now possible for Commodore to get these chips in large
quantities from Motorola or Hitachi for less than $50 each.
Commodore should start immediate development of machines to
replace the Amiga 500 and Amiga 2000 when the O.S. 1.4 is
finished. These models should be improved with the following
features:
(1) 512K of ROM, containing all of Workbench and AmigaDOS, as
well as all the system libraries and devices. This should be
done to compete with Commodore's closest competition -- Tandy and
Headstart -- which also produce computers with their operating
systems entirely in ROM.
(2) 1.76MB floppy drive, to upgrade the Amiga's storage
capabilities and also allow the Amiga to read IBM 1.44MB disks.
(3)68020 running at 14Mhz. The replacement for the A500 should
include a socket for the 68881. The replacement for the B2000
should include the 68881.
(4) The memory should be configured such that all memory is
32-bit RAM, but the custom chips would access the first 1M as
16-bit RAM. I have looked at the architecture, and I don't see
any reason why this isn't possible.
(5) Use the new Enhanced Chip Set (of course).
(6) The Amiga 500 replacement should have 1M of RAM. The B2000
replacement should have 2M of RAM.
(7) The B2000 replacement should have 32-bit ZORRO-III slots.
The replacement for the A500 should have a 32-bit side expansion
port.
I don't want anyone to tell me that it isn't possible for CBM
to sell a complete 68020 system for less than $1500, and still
make a very substantiale profit on it. Hell, if an engineer
friend of mine can turn an Amiga 1000 into a 68020 system (using
the LUCAS system) -- complete with 68881 and 32-bit RAM -- for
$350, Commodore can do it to the Amiga 500 for much less. For
one thing, the CPU and memory chips don't cost Commdore as much.
Second, they would eliminate the PC boards and PAL chips that
make up most of the cost of a LUCAS system.
Commodore has no choice about this. They can put it off until
the last minute -- until 486 systems are available cheap, and
such an introduction of 68020-based systems would get absolutely
no attention anywhere -- or they can do it now, when such systems
would get lots of attention, propel the Amiga back into the
limelight, and strengthen the Amiga's fading image.
-MB-
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alberta!mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA!UACS_Publicity_Director
From: userP...@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA (UACS Publicity Director)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: AMIGA Fading?
Message-ID: <650@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA>
Date: 22 Nov 89 00:48:10 GMT
References: <3932@nigel.udel.EDU> <32321@auc.UUCP>
Organization: University of Alberta (MTS)
Lines: 26
In article <32...@auc.UUCP>, r...@auc.UUCP (Rodney Ricks) writes:
>In article <3...@nigel.udel.EDU> WD...@ccvax.iastate.edu (NetMonster) writes:
>> Yes, the Amiga's image is fading. But Commodore can resurrect the Amiga's
>> image very easily. Here is what Commodore needs to do: IT IS TIME FOR
>> COMMODORE TO TOTALLY ABANDON THE 68000 MICROPROCESSOR, FOR ALL MODELS
>> OF THE AMIGA.
>
>Yeah, right. Watch most games break, and many other programs, and prices
>shoot throught the ceiling.
>
>Great move. Then people will be talking about about how buggy it is ("look
>at all of these programs that don't work!").
>
Commodore's current solution to this (on the 2000 and up) is
to allow you to select which CPU you want to use. When you
reboot, hold down both mouse buttons, and you will be presented
with a menu asking you whether you want to work with AmigaDOS
running on the 68000 or 68020, or if you want AmigaUX (which is
not yet available...)
I don't think Commodore should drop the 68000 line at all, but
should really start pushing computers with both 68000 and
68020 installed.
-= Scott =-
Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!bpa!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: AMIGA Fading?
Message-ID: <8695@cbmvax.UUCP>
Date: 23 Nov 89 05:14:38 GMT
References: <650@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA>
Organization: Commodore Technology, West Chester, PA
Lines: 40
in article <6...@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA>, userP...@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA
(UACS Publicity Director) says:
> Commodore's current solution to this (on the 2000 and up) is
That's actually 2500, or in fall-of-89-speak, 2500/20 and 2500/30.
> When you reboot, hold down both mouse buttons, and you will be
> presented with a menu asking you whether you want to work with
> AmigaDOS running on the 68000 or 68020, or if you want AmigaUX
It's a nice feature, for sure, but realize that the reason you
have it is that [a] A2000 based machines like either A2500 model
already have a 68000 in place, and [b] it was a real easy thing
to design into the A2620 and A2630 (basically for free). I put
that feature in mainly to help out developers -- you can have
just one machine, and still test out your software on a 68000
machine without taking apart your '020/'030 machine. A side
effect of this is that software that breaks on the '020/'030 can
still be run on the A2500. But don't anyone expect that to last!
We don't support software that's 68000 specific -- all software
should run on any 680x0 processor if possible. If you write
68020/30 specific code (for direct FPU calls or something), that's
OK, but you should check for the CPU type at the program's
start, and exit gracefully on a 68000, 68010, or a machine
with no FPU. The A2500 does make a good transition machine; it
gives developers with buggy software a little extra time to fix
it. But you can bet that future machines won't have a 68000 to
run this old stuff on; that would drastically cripple a full
high speed 32 bit machine.
Dropping back to the mode of your last CPU is for Intel machines.
Motorola processors did it right, with just a little bit of care
on the part of the programmer.
> -= Scott =-
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests"
{uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy
Too much of everything is just enough