Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!mephisto!udel!mmdf
From: BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Commodore, Amiga, Apple, and MAC
Message-ID: <15003@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 26 Mar 90 20:26:03 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 25
Posted: Mon Mar 26 21:26:03 1990
FLAME ON!!!!!
Once again, Commodore has let Apple slip ahead of them in the
area of technological innovation. Had Commodore released (or at
least publicly shown) their video card, developed by the University
of Lowell, they might have captured some headlines for new
innovations. But I doubt that the introduction of the video
card will get any attention now that Apple's new 24-bit graphics
accelerator has been shown publicly. The Lowell card pails next
to this thing, which will do animation as fast as the Lowell card,
but with full 24-bit color.
Also once again, Commodore has let Apple slip ahead of them in the
area of new technological innovatiion. Had Commodore released (or
at least publicly shown) the Amiga 3000, they might have captured
some headlines for developing innovative new computer systems. But
I doubt that the introduction of the Amiga 3000 will get any attention
now that Apple's 40Mhz 68030-based MAC IIFX has been shown. The Amiga
3000 pails next to this thing, which included a plethura of newly
developed custom chips. A total of ELEVEN custom chips are used
to give the MAC IIFX impressive speed while relieving the CPU of
a lot of I/O and sound duty. Unlike the Amiga 3000, however,
all of these custom chips run at the full speed of the microprocessor.
flame off
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psuvax1!husc6!purdue!haven!udel!mmdf
From: BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Amiga Fading? : Revisited
Message-ID: <15047@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 26 Mar 90 22:19:15 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 45
Posted: Mon Mar 26 23:19:15 1990
Several months ago, I posted a message to this and another list
entitled "Amiga Fading?" This was a comment about an article in
TIME which compared Commodore's big bashes in New York and Las Angeles
to a party for an aging star. I basically agreed with the article,
and commented that the Amiga, as a serious influence on the computer
industry, is fading fast.
In the last few months since I wrote that message, I have had my
opppinions confirmed over and over and over again. Nobody in the
computer industry pays attention to the Amiga anymore, even in
areas such as multimedia where the Amiga really shines. The Amiga
is rapidly becoming a home computer and game machine, going the
way of the Commodore 64 and Atari ST.
Commodore is developing some Amiga-based UNIX systems, but they
won't really be Amiga systems. The systems will, most likely, be
based on the Lowell video card. From such systems, the Amiga custom
chips could be totally removed from the systems without affecting
the system's marketability as a UNIX system.
I don't really see any hope for the Amiga as it currently is.
The Amiga's custom chips are years out-of-date, and, in the higher-
end machines, will be replaced by the TI 32010 used in the Lowell
card. The operating system is also years out-of-date -- lacking
critical capabilities such as full virtual memory and support for
memory-management units -- and will be replaced by UNIX in the
higher-end machines. Thus, the new higher-end machines can hardly
be called Amigas at all.
I look forward to the new machines, since I am a UNIX fanatic
and am also looking forward to the possibility of finally being
able to use scientific software -- such as Mathematica -- which is
totally lacking for the Amiga. But other people won't be so happy,
because it will mean that the only good software that will be
available for "Amiga" machines in the future will be expensive and
only available for Amiga UNIX.
Is there any real hope for the real, true Amiga? I doubt it.
Commodore has their attentions on UNIX, and the computer industry
doesn't pay attention to the Amiga at all.
Marc Barrett
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From: BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: MAC ][cx appraisal
Message-ID: <15049@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 26 Mar 90 22:19:44 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 58
Posted: Mon Mar 26 23:19:44 1990
Iowa State just opened up a fancy new MAC lab, and I have been using
one of their ][cx systems since it opened. I am very impressed with this
system. The multitasking is much better than I had been told [I have
been fed a lot of bull about MAC multitasking from fellow Amiga users]
the system is very easy-to-use, and the graphics just plain look GREAT.
Let's face it: the Amiga, the way it currently is, is in depserately
in need of a total facelift. The Amiga looks kludgy, feels kludgy, and
just plain IS kludgy. Everything about the Amiga looks and feels
kludgy. The Amiga suffers from too much UNIX-itis kludginess, and far
too little professionalism. The Amiga's interlaced graphics is alo
a sore spot. Without a flicker-fixer, the Amiga's graphics are
about as pleasing to the eye as a kick in the face is pleasing to
the head.
On the other hand, the MAC looks professional, feels professional,
and is professional to the bone. Everything is professional, from the
screen graphics [in which a screen graphics is a constant exact point
size in height and width] to the fonts [which are drawn in accordance
to point size and not pixel size like on the Amiga] and to the graphical
user-interface [all windows have shadows, the background screens are
always pattern-dithered, if multiple icons and menu-selected the
resulting windows are neatly stacked with each one just up&left of the
one in front of it, etc...].
The graphics capabilities adhere neatly to this professionalism.
Although the ][cx, in spite of its speed, does not have near the
animation capbility of the Amiga, I have found that 95% of operations
use static graphics, anyway. This is why those $150 SuperVGA cards
for the IBM [with 1024x768x256-color graphics -- my upstairs neighbor
did recently pick up one of these for $150], which can take up to
half a second to re-draw the screen, are still very popular. The
MAC's ability to display 256 colors out of 16 Million makes its
graphics look all the more professional.
There are also other areas which the Amiga can't even touch.
Such as built-in networking on ALL MAC models [very, very important
in an environment such as a lab or classroom. This is one of the
many reasons why Apple sells 10 million times more computers to
schools and colleges than Commodore].
It has been said that an Amiga can run MAC software, but a MAC
can't run Amiga software. This is true, but I don't see why any
MAC user would want to run Amiga software. There is much more
MAC software available than Amiga software. There is very little
scientific available for the Amiga, and tons available for the
MAC. Networking software for the Amiga is virtually nonexistant,
and so on. If Mathematica was available for the Amiga, I would
purchase it, but it isn't available for the Amiga. I can see
why. Most software developers that spend money on the Amiga lose
money on it. This is why so many Amiga developers have gone under
recently.
Lately, it has been my oppinion that what ails the Amiga is
Commodore's total lack of direction with it until recently. I
am beginning to see that this is not entirely the case. What
ails the Amiga is the Amiga itself.
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!snorkelwacker!apple!oliveb!amiga!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Commodore, Amiga, Apple, and MAC
Message-ID: <10363@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Date: 27 Mar 90 01:29:27 GMT
References: <15003@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
Lines: 65
Posted: Tue Mar 27 02:29:27 1990
In article <15...@snow-white.udel.EDU>
BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett) writes:
>FLAME ON!!!!!
> Once again, Commodore has let Apple slip ahead of them in the
>area of technological innovation. Had Commodore released (or at
>least publicly shown) their video card, developed by the University
>of Lowell, they might have captured some headlines for new
>innovations.
Commodore has publically shown the ULowell card. The last show I attended
that had it on display was the World of Commodore show in Toronto, where it
was running the X windows, in color of course, under AMIX.
>But I doubt that the introduction of the video card will get any attention
>now that Apple's new 24-bit graphics accelerator has been shown publicly.
The Apple card sounds pretty good, even at the $2000 price tag. But it's
mainly good for Apples, of course, since this is the first card of it's kind
(eg, general purpose QuickDraw engine) shown for an Apple machine. But a
big part of the announcement is that Apple would have you believe this is
the first time hardware graphics acceleration has taken place. Sort of like
the way they invented multitasking with Multifinder was released. Of
course, this is an old technique, pioneered by IBM, who, by the way, invented
the 3.5" disk several years after it was used by both Apple and Commodore,
and also managed to invent multitasking, several years after Commodore used
it and zillion after it was invented, or even available on a personal
computer.
>A total of ELEVEN custom chips are used to give the MAC IIFX impressive speed ...
Actually, a normal, every-day 32k external cache has more to do with the Mac IIfx
going fast than anything else. What Apple terms "custom chips" are simple gate
arrays. They are, for instance, doing some kind of DMA transfer for hard disk
I/O, rather than the 8 bit programmed I/O they've used in the past. Pretty much
what we've been doing all along. While most of the Mac IIfx does go faster than
the 7.16MHz of the A2000, everything I've seen so far indicates only the cache
is running a real 40MHz 68030 cycle.
Apparently Apple's hype "works good". I have yet to see a hard-core
architectural description of the IIfx, just the stuff being discussed on the
Apple net groups. NeXT's "mainframe on a chip" made things sound real good,
until you opened the hood and took a look around.
>Unlike the Amiga 3000, however, all of these custom chips run at the full speed
>of the microprocessor.
Well, you certainly seem to know quite a bit about the Mac IIfx and the A3000.
Care to reveal some real sources (eg, print articles) so's I can read up
on 'em too?
BTW, for those who haven't been paying attention, all the IIfx display cards run
over NuBus. The CPU slams on the brakes every time it talks to NuBus. There is
one card that provides an AMD 29k at 30MHz to execute QuickDraw commands, and
costs $2000. Really not bad for a video display with it's own CPU -- you can
pay over twice that for a similar unit on a PClone. Of course, you can also buy
A2000s for most rooms in the house for the price of one decked out IIfx. In any
case, this can really make QuickDraw scream -- Apple claims 5x to 20x speedups.
Of course, if you're using one of those programs that's working internally
thinking in Postscript, and just uses QuickDraw to put the pixels up on the
screen, you won't go any faster on this Mac setup.
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests"
{uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy
Too much of everything is just enough
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From: BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Whither Amiga?
Message-ID: <15134@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 27 Mar 90 17:35:57 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 55
Posted: Tue Mar 27 18:35:57 1990
I have been pointing out, for some time, the fact that the Amiga is
no longer a serious force in the computer industry. So far, I have
gotten precisely the the responses I expected. The responses were to
the effect that the Amiga is still the best low-end computer money
can buy.
But this is exacly my point. Everything Commodore produces ends
up a home computer. The Amiga will forever remain a home computer,
and Commodore will forever remain a home computer company. Commodore
may be satisfied with this, but I am not. There are no longer any
serious uses for the Amiga in the business, scientific, or
workstation markets. Therefore, there is no business, scientific,
or workstation software for the Amiga.
The Amiga's ability to display a puny 4096 colors is no longer
state-of-the-art. Companies that previously used Amigas (with its
ability to display 4096 colors at once) will now use Macs (with
their ability to display any of 16 Million colors at once).
Since 1985, Apple has improved the MAC by leaps and bounds,
but Commodore has hardly improved the Amiga at all. None of the
current Amiga models is more than slightly different than the
original Amiga 1000.
'But', you may say, 'Commodore does not have the R&D budget
that Apple has.' True, but do you realize just how many times
bigger Commodore is compared to NeXT, Inc.? And yet, NeXT has
managed to muster a R&D budget larger than Commodore's, and
produce more truly innovative products than Commodore.
In order to aviod being relegated to the home computer market,
Commodore must find a way to produce a video card for the Amiga
with the ability to display millions of colors at once. I have
already outlined [in previous messages] a way to do precisely
this: by modifying the Lowell board to turn the two overlay bit-
planes into control planes for a HAM mode. If Commodore's
engineers cannot do this, then they should contact Jay Minor and
the original designers of the Lowell video card. This would
allow the Amiga to compete directly with the MAC in the
scientific, multimedia, and workstation markets.
Commodore needs to do this immediately. I originally made
my ideas about this public a year ago. As far as I know,
nothing has been done so far. That is a whole year of wasted
time. Time is growing ahort, and no more time can be wasted.
BTW, I would like everyone here to know that I have pure
motived in stirring up trouble here. I love the Amiga, and
I do not want it to become a simple home computer.
Marc Barrett
AMIGA : Yesterday's Technology, FOREVER!!!!!
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!romp!auschs!awdprime!
sabre.austin.ibm.com!robin
From: ro...@sabre.austin.ibm.com (Robin D. Wilson/1000000)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Commodore, Amiga, Apple, and MAC
Message-ID: <1917@awdprime.UUCP>
Date: 27 Mar 90 18:45:26 GMT
References: <15003@snow-white.udel.EDU> <10363@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Sender: n...@awdprime.UUCP
Reply-To: ro...@reed.UUCP (Robin D. Wilson/1000000)
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin, TX
Lines: 22
Posted: Tue Mar 27 19:45:26 1990
>In article <15...@snow-white.udel.EDU>
BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett) writes:
>>Unlike the Amiga 3000, however, all of these custom chips run at the full speed
>>of the microprocessor.
I thought that on the A1000/500/2000 line the custom chips ran 2x as fast as
the main processor. So Apples manage to slow their down, and set some new
records for speed; hmm. The real speed increase is in the rate at which their
marketing mumbo-jumbo has proliferated.
BTW, how do you know that the A3000's custom chips don't "run at the full
speed of the microprocessor"? Has this stuff been announced already and
they left me out?
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newstop!sun!concertina!fiddler
From: fidd...@concertina.Sun.COM (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Commodore, Amiga, Apple, and MAC
Message-ID: <133557@sun.Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: 27 Mar 90 23:35:53 GMT
References: <15003@snow-white.udel.EDU> <10363@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Sender: n...@sun.Eng.Sun.COM
Lines: 51
Posted: Wed Mar 28 00:35:53 1990
In article <10...@cbmvax.commodore.com>, da...@cbmvax.commodore.com
(Dave Haynie) writes:
> In article <15...@snow-white.udel.EDU>
BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett) writes:
> > Once again, Commodore has let Apple slip ahead of them in the
> >area of technological innovation. Had Commodore released (or at
>
> Commodore has publically shown the ULowell card. The last show I attended
>
> >But I doubt that the introduction of the video card will get any attention
> >now that Apple's new 24-bit graphics accelerator has been shown publicly.
>
> The Apple card sounds pretty good, even at the $2000 price tag. But it's
> mainly good for Apples, of course, since this is the first card of it's kind
> (eg, general purpose QuickDraw engine) shown for an Apple machine.
SuperMac and Radius both are selling QuickDraw accelerators. RaterOps may
also be shipping one.
> But a big part of the announcement is that Apple would have you believe this is
> the first time hardware graphics acceleration has taken place.
They and AMD both ignore to above mentioned products...even though one of
them uses the AMD 29000. Marketing trolls are curious thingies.
> >A total of ELEVEN custom chips are used to give the MAC IIFX impressive speed ...
>
> Actually, a normal, every-day 32k external cache has more to do with the Mac IIfx
> going fast than anything else. What Apple terms "custom chips" are simple gate
> arrays. They are, for instance, doing some kind of DMA transfer for hard disk
> I/O, rather than the 8 bit programmed I/O they've used in the past. Pretty much
> what we've been doing all along. While most of the Mac IIfx does go faster than
> the 7.16MHz of the A2000, everything I've seen so far indicates only the cache
> is running a real 40MHz 68030 cycle.
At least two of the chips are, essentially, versions of the 6502 running some of
the I/O for the 68K. Weird memory that does latched read/writes. Expensive. Only
from Apple so far. But a bit faster.
> BTW, for those who haven't been paying attention, all the IIfx display cards run
> over NuBus. The CPU slams on the brakes every time it talks to NuBus. There is
> one card that provides an AMD 29k at 30MHz to execute QuickDraw commands, and
> costs $2000. Really not bad for a video display with it's own CPU -- you can
> pay over twice that for a similar unit on a PClone. Of course, you can also buy
> A2000s for most rooms in the house for the price of one decked out IIfx. In any
> case, this can really make QuickDraw scream -- Apple claims 5x to 20x speedups.
Just about the exact same speedup shown by the SuperMac accellerator.
------------
"...Then anyone who leaves behind him a written manual, and likewise
anyone who receives it, in the belief that such writing will be clear
and certain, must be exceedingly simple-minded..." Plato, _Phaedrus_
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!samsung!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!udel!mmdf
From: BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Amiga Rebirth?
Message-ID: <15187@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 28 Mar 90 04:55:04 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 39
Posted: Wed Mar 28 05:55:04 1990
It is no doubt that the new MAC IIfx will severely damage what
little portion of the professional computer market the Amiga still
hangs onto. The Amiga is even in severe danger of losing the
multimedia market -- the market that it should have a hold on, but
doesn't. Thanks to the new Apple video cards -- which have 24-bit
color and the ability to output NTSC compatible video at the flick
of a dip switch -- most the companies that previously bought
Amigas as alternatives to high-end video workstations will now
buy Macs instead.
What the Amiga needs now is a new beginning. The Amiga needs
a chance to start over and correct the billions of mistakes that
Commodore has made in the past five years. Commodore needs to
bring out a new Amiga system that is as powerful and innovative
now as the Amiga 1000 was back in 1985. The Amiga 1000 was the
first system to offer thousands of colors, a double-sided 3 1/2"
drive, and stereo sound. Commodore needs to produce a brand new
machine which would be a quantum leap above all of these areas :
millions of colors, a read/write optical disk, and 16-bit stereo
sound.
Unfortunately, I see little chance of this happening. The
Amiga 3000 will, most likely, be a bitter disappointment, and
offer few improvements to the actual chipset. I really, really
hope Commodore proves me wrong, but I doubt they will. Sigh.
I miss the good-old days when the Amiga blew away everything
to a $15,000 radius. I guess I'll have to be happy with my
home computer. It will always remain a home computer.
-MB-
P.S. Why doesn't Commodore purchase that small company that
markets the Amiga video transputer, and sell it as standard
hardware? That would be just what the Amiga needs to propel it
back into prominence again.
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usenet.ins.cwru.edu!mephisto!udel!mmdf
From: BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Amiga Ideas....
Message-ID: <15241@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 28 Mar 90 14:08:44 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 55
Posted: Wed Mar 28 15:08:44 1990
As I said in my last message, I have had pure motives in all the
trouble I've started here. since the Amiga 1000 was intorduced in
1985, Commodore has not been on the offense in the computer industry
at all. quite the contrary, everything Commodore has introduced since
1985 has been an effort to 'catch up' to the rest of the industry.
With IBM, compaq, and Apple introducing powerful new workstation
systems, unless Commodore gets into shape, they do not stand a chance
in anything but the low-end home computer market. I do not want to
see this happen. And is doesn't necessarily have to happen. All
it requires is to prevent this is a little capital and a lot of
imagination.
Instead of contributing trouble now, I would like to contribute
ideas. I have already outlined the possibility of instilling a
10-bitplane HAM mode into the Lowell video board. This alone would
cause Apple a lot of trouble. This would allow Commodore to produce
a product with the capability of producing millions of colors on the
screen with less than 2/5 the amount of memory per frame as the
Apple graphics board requires.
There is also this small company called Digital Animation Productions
which is producing a product called the Video Transputer. The last
I heard, there are having quite a time trying to develop and market
this product themselves. What if Commodore were to purchase this
small company, and make the Video Transputer circuitry standard
hardware for an Amiga Graphics Workstation? What would THAT do to
the FX??? (A LOT. The Video Tranputer has the same graphics
capabilities as the FX, but a hell of a lot faster. Put into a high-
end 68030-based Amiga, and given a 32-bit communications channel to
the 68030, it would, quite literally, blow the FX out of the water,
for approximately the same price).
Then there is also the Video Toaster. I doubt NewTek would want
to be acquired by Commodore. But what if Commodore were to license
the Video Toaster, and offer an Amiga 3000 package with the Video
Toaster? I was in one of only TWO Amiga user's groups nationwide
which were priviledged to see the V.T., and it blew me away. And
NewTek hasn't been sitting on their hands with it for the last two
years, either. It is 10 times more powerful now than it was then,
and man was it powerful then. The trouble is, a lot of companies
don't like to touch third-party hardware because of the risks
involved. They'd rather go with hardware from the company that
produces the system. An Amiga 3000 package with Video Toaster would
be just what the doctor ordered for such companies.
Other ideas can be considered. I just want Commodore to go
with one of them, instead of sitting on their hands as they have
since the MAC II was originally introduced.
-MB-
AMIGA <middle deleted> FOREVER!!!
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!lll-winken!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
samsung!munnari.oz.au!murdu!ucsvc!wehi!baxter_a
From: BAXTE...@wehi.dn.mu.oz
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: CONTRACT ON MARC BARRETT
Message-ID: <6190@wehi.dn.mu.oz>
Date: 29 Mar 90 09:33:53 GMT
Organization: Walter & Eliza Hall Institute
Lines: 14
Posted: Thu Mar 29 10:33:53 1990
Marc Barrett is now personally responsible for stopping the sale of
5 A500 within this institute. The Guy who was arranging the group to
get them thought he would read up on the Amiga by reading, yep, you
guessed it, comp.sys.amiga. Of couse, he was struck by the number of
postings telling people how useless and out of date Amiga equiptment
is (sic), so they're all buying macs.
If any any ever sees this shit, would they accept a small donation
to help form a fund (all please donate freely) to take out a contract
on Marc? At first I thought he ment well. I am now moderately sure
he is simply one of the least subtle cases of industrial sabatage
I have ever seen.
Regards Alan
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Commodore, Amiga, Apple, and MAC
Message-ID: <10435@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Date: 29 Mar 90 20:28:29 GMT
References: <15003@snow-white.udel.EDU> <10363@cbmvax.commodore.com>
<1917@awdprime.UUCP>
Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
Lines: 37
Posted: Thu Mar 29 21:28:29 1990
In article <1...@awdprime.UUCP> ro...@reed.UUCP (Robin D. Wilson/1000000)
writes:
>>In article <15...@snow-white.udel.EDU>
BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett) writes:
>>>Unlike the Amiga 3000, however, all of these custom chips run at the full speed
>>>of the microprocessor.
>I thought that on the A1000/500/2000 line the custom chips ran 2x as fast as
>the main processor.
Essentially true. The Amiga chips run a memory cycle in two 7.16 MHz clock
cycles, the 68000 in those systems runs a memory cycle in four 7.16 MHz clock
cycles (for NTSC; the PAL machines run 7.09 MHz clocks).
Since the A2500/30, the CPU subsystem speed was fully decoupled from the
Video subsystem speed. When the CPU needs to access anything in the video
subsystem, it synchronizes to video speeds. You can expect all future
Amigas to work basically this way, regardless of the video and CPU clock
speeds in any given machine.
All Mac II's except the Mac IIci have a similar split. The video subsystem
is on the NuBus, and the CPU must sync up and take wait states to communicate
over the NuBus, which runs a minimum memory cycle of two 10MHz clocks (though
most NuBus devices require at least three 10MHz clocks). Older Mac IIs (the
Mac II and Mac IIx) use a 15.6 MHz CPU clock, twice that of the Mac 512/Mac
Plus 7.8 MHz clock, probably because they use a number of the same gate arrays,
all of which were designed to run at 7.8MHz. The Mac IIci runs a CPU clock
of 25MHz, and slows down to talk to some of it's I/O chips. The Mac IIfx
runs a 40MHz CPU and cache clock, and slows down for reads of main memory any
other access of I/O, whether on the motherboard or NuBus. I haven't read
enough on it to know just how much of a slowdown there is for various
motherboard resources. That's no big surprise, though; DRAM isn't as fast
as SRAM, but it's a heck of a lot faster than most things CPUs communicate
with, like I/O chips and ROM.
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests"
{uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy
Too much of everything is just enough
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Commodore, Amiga, Apple, and MAC
Message-ID: <10436@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Date: 29 Mar 90 20:48:29 GMT
References: <15003@snow-white.udel.EDU> <10363@cbmvax.commodore.com>
<133557@sun.Eng.Sun.COM>
Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
Lines: 56
Posted: Thu Mar 29 21:48:29 1990
In article <133...@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> fidd...@concertina.Sun.COM (Steve Hix)
writes:
>In article <10...@cbmvax.commodore.com>, da...@cbmvax.commodore.com
(Dave Haynie) writes:
>> In article <15...@snow-white.udel.EDU>
BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett) writes:
>> > Once again, Commodore has let Apple slip ahead of them in the
>> >area of technological innovation. Had Commodore released (or at
>> The Apple card sounds pretty good, even at the $2000 price tag. But it's
>> mainly good for Apples, of course, since this is the first card of it's kind
>> (eg, general purpose QuickDraw engine) shown for an Apple machine.
>SuperMac and Radius both are selling QuickDraw accelerators. RaterOps may
>also be shipping one.
Not all of them are general purpose, though. At least, when I read the
write-up of the ARM based accelerator (Radius?), the implication was that it
would only speed up the operations of software that specifically knew about
the board. In other words, it didn't replace the QuickDraw routines on the
Mac, it simply provided a speedup for programs (like the CAD package sold
by the same company) that knew about that card. According to the BYTE
article, RasterOps does make a similar unit.
>They and AMD both ignore to above mentioned products...even though one of
>them uses the AMD 29000. Marketing trolls are curious thingies.
Well, that's to be expected. Even if one of these does the same basic
thing as the Apple card, you better believe Apple will imply they did it
first. IBM pretty much made this Standard Operating Procedure, and Apple
has picked up on it really nicely.
>At least two of the chips are, essentially, versions of the 6502 running some of
>the I/O for the 68K.
6502s are in many standard cell libraries. I imagine the I/O tasks weren't all
that big, and they were byte oriented. You can gain quite a bit by going to
an I/O processor like that. Commodore's A2232 seven port serial card uses a
4502 for I/O, and manages to keep up with seven RS-232 lines at 19,200 baud
each. The 4502/6502 pumps bytes as well as a 68030, and responds to interrupts
much quicker.
>Weird memory that does latched read/writes. Expensive. Only from Apple so far.
>But a bit faster.
Well, yeah, if you latch your writes, you can run one no-wait-state write. If
the very next cycle is a write, you probably have to wait, but if it's a cache
hit or a read, it's probably a win.
>Just about the exact same speedup shown by the SuperMac accellerator.
Maybe that one does a full QuickDraw interpreter. I haven't heard anything
about it.
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests"
{uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy
Too much of everything is just enough
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!njin!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!udel!mmdf
From: BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Amiga Impact!
Message-ID: <15547@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 31 Mar 90 21:51:00 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 46
Posted: Sat Mar 31 22:51:00 1990
I have made a real ass of myself here lately by focusing too much
on what impact the introduction of the new video hardware from Apple
will have on the Amiga. I would like now to focus on what impact
Commodore's soon-to-be-introduced products will have on Commodore's
other primary competitors: IBM, Compaq, Atari, and SUN. The products
Commodore is getting ready to itroduce include: the remaining ECS
chip, AmigaOS 1.4 (2.0???), Amiga UNIX, the A2260 video card,
the Amiga 3000, and a number of networking products for Amiga UNIX.
SUN : I put SUN in here because, from what I've seen, an Amiga
setup including the A2500/30, the A2260, and Amiga UNIX will be
almost identical to a SUN Sparcstation in looks and performance.
SUN is in more trouble than they may yet realize. If Commodore can
market the AmigaStation (as I call it) successfully to universities
that are looking for inexpensive UNIX workstations, it will be a
huge success.
ATARI : Atari is on it's death bed already. The new operating
system alone will put Atari ten-feet under. I won't go into what
the other products will do (too gruesome).
IBM : Probably not much, as IBM is getting out of the personal
computer business and pushing instead instead into the high-end
(over $20,000!) workstation market.
COMPAQ : I am hoping that the Amiga 3000 has EISA slots. If it
does, Compaq is in trouble. If not, Commodore should work on a
version of the Amiga 3000 that does have EISA slots. The slots
themselves are easy to design, and take nothing away from IBM
hardware compatibility. Putting EISA slots into the Amiga 3000
would be easy, and should take Commodore nothing more than a few
weeks to do it. The tough part would be designing an EISA
BridgeBoard. The most important part, though, is the slots.
Commodore should just put the slots in, and take their time with
the EISA BridgeBoard. The slots must be there first, but the
BridgeBoard can come later.
An Amiga 3000 with EISA slots and an optional EISA BridgeBoard
would do damage to Compaq, though. It would also provide another
implementation for EISA, and more popularity for Commodore.
I would put the NeXT in here except that it, with it's
capabilities such as Display PostScript, should not be heavily
impacted. I do think Commodore should seriously consider putting
together an Amiga UNIX system for desktop publishing that would
include Display PostScript. This WOULD impact the NeXT.
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!snorkelwacker!usc!wuarchive!udel!mmdf
From: BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Commodore Woes
Message-ID: <16448@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 11 Apr 90 03:40:55 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 29
Posted: Wed Apr 11 04:40:55 1990
This is a terrible thing to say about a person, but I cannot wait
until Irving Guould dies. He has done nothing but try to kill the
Amiga since Commodore bought it in 1984. What with those multi-million-
dollar annual bonuses he gives himself (10% of Commodore's annual
profits!) and expense account expenses, he is still trying to kill
the Amiga.
I am ashamed to be a Commodore stockholder. I did not buy the stock
for profits, but so that my letters to Commodore would carry more weight.
But Guould and Mehdi Ali (actually, I think Mr. Ali is an even worse
threat than Guould) have done absolutely nothing to reward stockholders
for their investments in the company.
Last Fall, Commodore spent $16 Million on an advertizing compaign.
At the same time, Guould and Ali grabbed a total of $4 Million for
themselves. What did these two do to deserve that much money?? They
don't deserve big bonuses, THEY DESERVE TO BE SHOT!!
At a time when Commodore is really struggling to gain a market
share in North America -- and is resorting to laying off critical
technical support people in Canada (how is THAT supposed to increase
sales, anyway?) -- these two people (I hesitate to call them that)
are doing nothing but attempt to speed up the sinking. I really
hope Copperman has the guts to do something (anything!) to overthrow
these two, so that Commodore can really get some work done.
-MB-
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!uhccux!ames!think!
zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!wuarchive!udel!mmdf
From: BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE....@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Commodore Top Management
Message-ID: <16463@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 11 Apr 90 06:07:52 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 33
Posted: Wed Apr 11 07:07:52 1990
The Commodore upper management people do seem to finally have their
acts together. Commodore now has an absolutely top-notch crack R&D
team, especially in software development. Hardware development could
be better, though, but is suffering from the two years whem under
Max Toy, R&D funds for Amiga projects were cut back somewhat in favor
of R&D on PC clone hardware.
However, no matter how good the upper management people are, they
can't do much unless the top management people permit it. I am
speaking of Mr. Guould and Mr. Ali. In the past, Mr. Guould has
often gotten in the way of technological innovations (being in his
eighties, he can't have the young, innovative spirit that young
people have), but he doesn't seem to be getting in the way directly
now. However, Mr. Guould and Mr. Ali still aren't doing much good
by sucking away millions of dollars for their own personal uses.
This is corruption in action, and it must stop.
Commodore has recently laid off a number of technical support
people in Canada. For the $2 Million that Mr. Ali grabbed for
himself, those TEN people who were laid off could be kept on for
another year. Cutting back on tech support will only turn sales
into a downward spiral -- Ask Atari about that!
I don't know how many people will receive this, as a lot of
people have called my postings "crap" and have put me on thir
(oops) their kill files. Fine, I don't really care if they
receive my messages on not. It is entirely up to them whether
they want to read what I have to say, and if they don't read
it then the world will not come to and end.
-MB-
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ogicse!dali!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!
zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!udel!sbcs!root
From: r...@sbcs.sunysb.edu (SBCS System Staff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Where to complain about Marc Barretts posting(s)
Message-ID: <7640@sbcs.sunysb.edu>
Date: 12 Apr 90 11:56:27 GMT
Sender: r...@sbcs.sunysb.edu
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Lines: 8
Posted: Thu Apr 12 12:56:27 1990
If you want to let people at iastate.edu know how you feel about
Marc Barrett & his posting about CBM's Mr Gould/Mr Ali, drop
a line to ga....@isumvs.iastate.edu (Mr Wayne Hauber). Let
them know that the sort of posting Marc made is unacceptable,
even for Usenet.
Rick Spanbauer
State U of NY/Stony Brook
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!dino!grafix.iastate.edu!wayne
From: wa...@grafix.iastate.edu (Wayne Hauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: We've talked to Marc Barrett
Message-ID: <1108@dino.cs.iastate.edu>
Date: 13 Apr 90 21:39:42 GMT
Sender: use...@dino.cs.iastate.edu
Reply-To: wa...@grafix.iastate.edu (Wayne Hauber)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 7
Posted: Fri Apr 13 22:39:42 1990
I have received several complaints about Marc Barrett from this
newsgroup. We've talked to Marc about these complaints and expect the
situation to improve.
--
Wayne Hauber | (515) 294-9890
Programming Consultant/BITNET Inforep | ga....@isumvs.bitnet
Iowa State University Computation Center | ga....@isumvs.iastate.edu
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!wuarchive!udel!mmdf
From: BARR...@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: An Official Apology to the List
Message-ID: <16959@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 16 Apr 90 05:28:17 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 18
Posted: Mon Apr 16 06:28:17 1990
One of my recent messages ("Commodore Upper Management") was totally
out of line in the manner in which it was worded. I was completely
wrong in the manner in which it was expressed, and I should not have
expressed my oppinions in such a hostile and immature manner. Consider
this to be an official apology to the peoople on this list who were
offended by that message.
This is not, however, an apology to the two Commodore management
people in question. My oppinions about them -- that they should be
completely removed from Commodore management -- still stands.
Again, I should not have posted that message in such an outright
offensive manner. In the future, I will attempt to express my oppinions
in a much more low-key and less caustic manner.
-MB-
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!wuarchive!udel!mmdf
From: BARR...@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: A3000: Another Home Computer.
Message-ID: <17087@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 17 Apr 90 08:10:02 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 35
Posted: Tue Apr 17 09:10:02 1990
If the rumors of the recently-posted stats on the Amiga 3000
are confirmed, then my suspicions about this system are confirmed.
This is no workstation. I am bitterly disappointed that
Commodore could not produce a system better than this. As far
as I'm concerned, Commodore has yet another Home Computer on
their hands.
I suspect that the rest of the industry will prove me right.
This system will not succeed in the workstation market. I am
willing to bet the value of my Commodore stock that this thing
will be selling in the home computer market by Christmas. Mark
my words here.
Here we have a system with good CPU power, a great operating
system, and some of the worst graphics in a system produced in
a long time. I wish Commodore has held onto this system for
a bit longer, and given it some better graphics. To survive
as a workstation, even a low-end one, it is required that the
system be able to display 256 colors out of a large palette.
Four colors out of 64 won't cut it, at any resolution. Even
IBM EGA can equal this.
Even Atari agrees with my logic here. The new 'TT' can
display 256 colors out of 16M at a resolution of 640x480. I
was hoping that Commodore would be able to at least equal the
'TT', but I guess not.
SIGH. I had really bright hopes for the Amiga 3000, but
Commodore has a real habit of always squelching my hopes.
Hardware-wise, excepting the 68030 and 32-bit slots, this
system is a real piece of junk.
-MB
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: A3000: Another Home Computer.
Message-ID: <10928@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Date: 18 Apr 90 01:11:26 GMT
References: <17087@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
Lines: 17
Posted: Wed Apr 18 02:11:26 1990
In article <17...@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARR...@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett)
writes:
>To survive as a workstation, even a low-end one, it is required that the
>system be able to display 256 colors out of a large palette.
Damn, I wish I had known that. I've been going along all this time doing all
this useful work on my 1000x800x2 Amiga 2500 here and some 1280x1024x1 Apollos.
I hear folks also find monochrome Suns and NeXTs useful workstations. I guess
we were all wrong; they're totally useless without color. Guess they'll all be
heading for the dumpsters tomorrow morning. Man, am I bummed.
> -MB
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
{uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy
"I have been given the freedom to do as I see fit" -REM
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!dino!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!
wuarchive!udel!mmdf
From: BARR...@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: A Clarification.
Message-ID: <17274@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 19 Apr 90 05:21:09 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 15
Posted: Thu Apr 19 06:21:09 1990
I would like to clarify some from that last message. I love the
amiga, and I do not want Commodore to go out of business. But I
just don't like seeing the Amiga die slowly the way it is. It is
aggravating. Whereas once the Amiga had the best color capability
in the industry, it now has one of the worst.
With OS2.0 and UNIX, it has the best operating system setup in
the industry, there is absolutely no question about that! It
is also one of the best number crunchers around. But, at the same
time, all this is at the expense of what made the Amiga what it
is today: color graphics. There may be a way around this, though.
If someone could find a way to use one of those super-cheap high-res
VGA cards on an Amiga with Amiga programs, this would be great.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, I guess.
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!wuarchive!udel!mmdf
From: BARR...@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Amiga Progress
Message-ID: <17288@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Date: 19 Apr 90 07:23:22 GMT
Sender: m...@udel.EDU
Lines: 66
Posted: Thu Apr 19 08:23:22 1990
In article <6...@bula.se> Bjorn Knuttson <bjo...@bula.se> writes:
>In article <A9D5DB83D07F201...@ISUVAX.BITNET> Marc Barrett <FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE.
>EDU!BARRETT> writes:
>> I'm sure you wouldn't want to fork out the money that an A3000 with
>>24 bit color would cost. But that isn't what I'm asking for. For
>>Commodore to have put a 640x480x8 bitplane resolution mode into the
>>A3000 would not have been hard. It already has a 640x400x4 bitplane
>>mode. This would have been a marginal improvement at best, and would
>>not have raised the cost one iota. The palette would not even have
>>to have been improved, just the color bandwidth, and even it only
>>slightly. This was not too much to ask.
>Well, to do that, Commodore would have had to redesign the custom-chips.
>The current chips are done in NMOS. To get 8 bitplanes they would have
>to make the chips in CMOS. I have talked to Jay Miner about this. He
>told me that it would be impossible to hack the current chipset into
>doing any more than they do today. (That's why they had to reduduce
>the number of colors to get 640*400 non-interlaced.)
>I'm pretty certain that Commodore is working on CMOS versions of the
>chipset. But I wouldn't describe making a whole chipset as easy.
>To put a 640x480x8 bitplane resolution mode into the A3000 without
>redesigning the chipset wouldn't be hard, it would be impossible.
Commodore is going to have to improve the chipset eventually, or
stop making computers. They must improve the sound and video
capabilities of the low-end machines eventually. If, as you say,
the chipset cannot be improved, then the Amiga has no future.
What is Commodore going to do, say, five years from now, when
an inexpensive, cheap-to-make, low-end Amiga is needed, with the
graphics capabilities that workstations have today?
Commodore has already sat on the Amiga too long. They have
made it faster and faster, without actually improving it all.
That the chipset is difficult to improve is no excuse. Do you think
Apple and IBM are just going to say "Oh, my, Commodore can't improve
the chipset of their systems, so we'd better stop improving ours."?
I sure hope they don't!! There is something that is vital to
the computer industry, called "PROGRESS", that Commodore hasn't
done at all in the past half decade. Commodore MUST progress,
or get out of the computer market. Period.
Commodore hasn't improved the Amiga at all in the past five
years. In the same time period, Apple and IBM have vastly
improved their machines. Amiga users used to criticize Apple
and IBM for stifling industry progress, but now who's the guilty-
as-sin party for doing their uttermost best to stifle industry
progress?
AMIGA : YESTERDAY'S TECHNOLOGY, FOREVER!!!!
Despite how much people hate the above slogan, it describes
the Amiga better than any slogan ever made. The speed, color,
sound, and I/O capabilities of the custom chipset have not been
improved AT ALL in the past half decade. What does the next
half-decade hold? Commodore has been living on the laurels
of the Amiga 1000 far too long. They must improve it. If
they don't, I will enjoy watching them go out of business.
To stife progress is a sin against the computer industry, and
any company guilty of it -- no matter who they are -- deserves
to go out of business.
Go ahead and flame me personally. Call me a whiner. Call
me an *ssh*le. Go ahead and even get me kicked off the Net.
But I won't stop using the above slogan until someone proves
to me that it's wrong.
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
samsung!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Amiga Progress
Message-ID: <10999@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Date: 20 Apr 90 08:19:23 GMT
References: <17288@snow-white.udel.EDU>
Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
Lines: 19
Posted: Fri Apr 20 09:19:23 1990
In article <17...@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARR...@owl.ecil.iastate.edu
(Marc Barrett) writes:
> Commodore hasn't improved the Amiga at all in the past five
>years. In the same time period, Apple and IBM have vastly
>improved their machines.
I know this is a silly question, Marc, but do you ever use your computer for
anything but slideshows or animations? You seem to judge the entire worth
of a computer by the number of colors in the display, and not one thing else.
Before you grace us with another mindless tirade, you could stand to undergo
a little self-evaluation. I'd like to believe that human beings have changed
a bit in the last million or so years, but sometimes I wonder...
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
{uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy
"I have been given the freedom to do as I see fit" -REM