Path: sparky!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!davidm
From: dav...@cbmvax.commodore.com (David Miller - CATS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <30730@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Date: 4 May 92 16:05:44 GMT
Reply-To: syd...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bill Sydnes)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
Lines: 39
[Posted at the request of Bill Sydnes and Jeff Scherb. -- DavidM]
I have noticed some comments on the network over the past few
weeks questioning Commodore's commitment to the Amiga. Normally,
we don't comment on postings on public networks, but this time
I'd like to set the record straight.
The majority of Commodore's revenue comes from the Amiga line
of computers, and almost all of Commodore's R&D efforts are
focused on enhancing the Amiga to continue to provide outstanding
power and functionality at a competetive price.
We have just released the Amiga 600, a brand-new machine aimed at
the home market. This machine is capable of supporting an internal
IDE hard drive, has an industry-standard PCMCIA credit-card slot,
and includes an on-board RF modulator for the home user.
We have plans to release a number of other new Amiga models this
year. While I can't reveal the details of these machines at this
point, I would like to say that we plan to provide significantly
better capability and value for the user in these new systems.
Significant R&D efforts are underway in the area of CDTV technology,
both in improved systems and in peripherals for other Amiga computers.
A large and continuing R&D effort exists to improve the performance
and functionality of the Amiga chip set.
Finally, we are examining the possibility of bringing new technology
to the Amiga, in an effort to leverage the R&D efforts of the computer
industry as a whole, and to take advantage of the price benefits
that come with industry standards.
I believe these efforts illustrate our strong commitment to the Amiga
and CDTV.
William Sydnes
Vice President, Engineering
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Path: sparky!uunet!gumby!destroyer!news.iastate.edu!barrett
From: barr...@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <1992May4.214339.8580@news.iastate.edu>
Sender: n...@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
References: <30730@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Date: Mon, 4 May 1992 21:43:39 GMT
Lines: 51
In article <30...@cbmvax.commodore.com> syd...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bill Sydnes)
writes:
[stuff deleted]
> I believe these efforts illustrate our strong commitment to the Amiga
> and CDTV.
Talk is cheap, let's examine the facts. In the past five years, no new
mid-range Amiga systems have been introduced. In the past two years since the
A3000, no high-end systems have been introduced. In addition, in the past
five only two low-end systems have been introduced, and these two systems have
only been introduced in Europe. In the past two years, no new products
whatsoever have been introduced in the U.S. Finally, no significantly new
Amiga technologies have been intorduced in the past seven years.
I do call into question Commodore's commitment to the Amiga. Especially
since, in the past three years, a total of nine new PC compatible systems have
been introduced. If Commodore is so committed to the Amiga, then why have new
PC clone systems outnumbered new Amiga systems by almost three to one recently,
and by almost four to one since the original Amiga was introduced?
In addition to calling into question Commodore's commitment to the Amiga, I
especially call into question Commodore's commitment to the U.S. market. It
wasn't very long ago that it seemed that Commodore was finally doing things
right. They were finally advertizing on a national scale, and were even
taking out very nice ads in the newspaper of my university! They were also
developing new high-end UNIX systems right and left. Then something went
terribly wrong. No national ads have been seen in years, no ads have been
placed in the ISU newspaper, Commodore has canceled all efforts to get the
university computer dealer to carry the Amiga, all developments for Amiga
UNIX were canceled and the Amiga UNIX development team was disbanded, and so
on. In short, where the U.S. market is concerned, Commodore has failed
miserably, in effect grabbing defeat seemingly right from the jaws of victory.
For those of you reading this in comp.sys.amiga.misc, and saying "Oh
no, not another -MB- post", I am crossposting this to .misc on purpose. I
want what I have to say to be heard. The situation with Amiga development
has decayed to the point that mere words from a Commodore middle manager
cannot fix it. What we need are RESULTS, not talk. To the Commodore
officials again, if you really are working on new technologies, when why
don't you just get the new systems on to the market? Enough with the hopeful
chatter, which we've heard enough of already. We've been hearing rumors of
new technologies, 32-bit chipsets, and DIG-based operating systems for the
past four years, and I am tired of the total lack of results, if nobody else
is. You guys need to get your own act in geer and produce something of
substance before any words from you can be believed.
> William Sydnes
> Vice President, Engineering
---
| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: barr...@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
Path: sparky!uunet!vtserf!creatures!csgrad.cs.vt.edu!lawsons
From: laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Shannon Lawson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <2622@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
Date: 5 May 92 12:37:28 GMT
References: <30730@cbmvax.commodore.com> <1992May4.214339.8580@news.iastate.edu>
Sender: use...@creatures.cs.vt.edu
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Organization: VPI&SU Computer Science Department, Blacksburg, VA
Lines: 57
In article <1992May4.214339.8...@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
writes:
>
> Talk is cheap, let's examine the facts.
Let's!
>In the past two years since the
>A3000, no high-end systems have been introduced.
I assume you're lumping the A3000T in with this? It hasn't been out THAT long.
Granted, it's not a major technological breakthrough, but it is a newer high-
end system.
>Finally, no significantly new
>Amiga technologies have been intorduced in the past seven years.
^^^^^^^^^^
I assume you mean "introduced" here. Let's see now... I have 2 Megs of chip
RAM now. That's significant. I have a significantly improved OS to play
with. I have a de-interlaced display. I have a 68030/68882, and though not
Amiga-specific, is certainly a significant improvement over the A1000 I had
back in '85. Yes, it would be nice to have better audio capability, as well
as better out-of-the-box graphics capability. Believe it or not, I think C=
has gone a long way toward making the Amiga line more dependable, more
flexible, and more attractive as an applications platform.
Maybe I'm naive. Maybe C= hasn't lived up to our expectations. Maybe our
expectations are premature. In any event, I say we give them an opportunity
to deliver the kind of products we KNOW they are capable of. Be patient.
> In addition to calling into question Commodore's commitment to the Amiga, I
>especially call into question Commodore's commitment to the U.S. market.
I agree that we could see a stronger commitment over here, but the facts
argue that C='s money is made in Europe. It's no wonder that they choose to
target the European market over the US market. Perhaps the new technologies
will catch on over here. If they do, I can't imagine C= ignoring that fact.
>The situation with Amiga development
>has decayed to the point that mere words from a Commodore middle manager
>cannot fix it. What we need are RESULTS, not talk.
I'm sure they'll be happy to plop a new system on your doorstep in the
morning! :-) In the past, I've noticed that C= plays things pretty
conservatively when discussing unreleased technologies. The fact that the
engineering VP went out of his way to make a statement on the net seems
hopeful to me. Let's wait and see...
Who knows? Even -MB- might be surprised...
>| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: barr...@iastate.edu
-----
Shannon Lawson, Virginia Tech || E-mail: laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu
"Knowledge is chimera, for beyond it ever lies other knowledge, and the
incompleteness of what is known renders the knowing false." - S.R. Donaldson
Path: sparky!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!news.iastate.edu!
barrett
From: barr...@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
Date: 5 May 92 22:28:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992May5.222810.518
References: <30730@cbmvax.commodore.com> <1992May4.214339.8580@news.iastate.edu>
<2622@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
Sender: n...@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Lines: 84
In article <2...@creatures.cs.vt.edu> laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Shannon Lawson)
writes:
>In article <1992May4.214339.8...@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>>In the past two years since the
>>A3000, no high-end systems have been introduced.
>
>I assume you're lumping the A3000T in with this? It hasn't been out THAT long.
>Granted, it's not a major technological breakthrough, but it is a newer high-
>end system.
I lumped the A3000T with the A3000 because the A3000T and A3000 were
basically announced at the same time. It was development and production
delays that caused the A3000T to actually hit the market so much later.
>>Finally, no significantly new
>>Amiga technologies have been intorduced in the past seven years.
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>I assume you mean "introduced" here. Let's see now... I have 2 Megs of chip
>RAM now. That's significant. I have a significantly improved OS to play
>with. I have a de-interlaced display. I have a 68030/68882, and though not
>Amiga-specific, is certainly a significant improvement over the A1000 I had
>back in '85. Yes, it would be nice to have better audio capability, as well
>as better out-of-the-box graphics capability. Believe it or not, I think C=
>has gone a long way toward making the Amiga line more dependable, more
>flexible, and more attractive as an applications platform.
>
>Maybe I'm naive. Maybe C= hasn't lived up to our expectations. Maybe our
>expectations are premature. In any event, I say we give them an opportunity
>to deliver the kind of products we KNOW they are capable of. Be patient.
I've been patient for the past seven years. I've lost patience. They have
not proven that they are capable of anything beyond relatively minor
improvements like inckuding a faster HD controller or faster CPU. They may
be capable of developing good products, but they have not proven it.
If you think our expectations are at all premature, I give you a comparison
of top-of-the-line IBM, MAC, and Amiga systems seven years ago and today.
(IBM)
1985: 8Mhz 8088, 640x480 EGA, 64 colors on-screen, 64 color palette
1992: 33Mhz i846, 1280x1024 SVGA, 32,768 colors on-screen, 262144 palette
(MAC)
1985: 8Mhz 68000, 512x384, 2 colors on-screen, 2 colors in palette
1992: 25Mhz 68040, 640x480, 16,777,216 colors on-screen, 16,777,216 palette
(AMIGA)
1985: 7Mhz 68000, 704x480, 4096 colors on-screen, 4096 colors in palette
1992: 25Mhz 68030, 704x480, 4096 colors on-screen, 4096 colors in palette
This is basically a comparison of the progress that the various systems
have made between 1985 and today. I will let you judge if I am being
premature in judging Commodore's efforts.
>
>> In addition to calling into question Commodore's commitment to the Amiga, I
>>especially call into question Commodore's commitment to the U.S. market.
>
>I agree that we could see a stronger commitment over here, but the facts
>argue that C='s money is made in Europe. It's no wonder that they choose to
>target the European market over the US market. Perhaps the new technologies
>will catch on over here. If they do, I can't imagine C= ignoring that fact.
It is hard to say how well Commodore could do in the U.S., because they
haven't even tried to sell machines over here. Have you seen any Commodore
delegations going from campus to campus demonstrating the virtues of Amiga
video and multimedia? Have you seen any new high-end or mid-range Amigas
with CD-ROM drives, to enhance the Amiga as a multimedia machine? Have you
seen any national TV ads for the A3000? Have you seen any MPEG-based Amiga
add-ons to enhance the Amiga's full-screen full-motion video?
Well, Commodore did try getting the Amiga into many universities, but they
gave up when their efforts did not produce big results after about two weeks.
> Shannon Lawson, Virginia Tech || E-mail: laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu
> "Knowledge is chimera, for beyond it ever lies other knowledge, and the
> incompleteness of what is known renders the knowing false." - S.R. Donaldson
>
---
| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: barr...@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
I Survived the Veishea 1992 Riots...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Path: sparky!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!qdpii!davidme
From: davi...@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <1992May6.020719.875@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au>
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
References: <1992May4.214339.8580@news.iastate.edu> <2622@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
<1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1992 02:07:19 GMT
Lines: 41
In article <1992May5.222810....@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>
> If you think our expectations are at all premature, I give you a comparison
>of top-of-the-line IBM, MAC, and Amiga systems seven years ago and today.
>
>(IBM)
> 1985: 8Mhz 8088, 640x480 EGA, 64 colors on-screen, 64 color palette
EGA was originally 640x350 - 480 line modes appeared just before VGA did, in
86/87. Also, the max colours on screen was 16, in 320x200 mode.
> 1992: 33Mhz i846, 1280x1024 SVGA, 32,768 colors on-screen, 262144 palette
I've never seen an SVGA that does 1280x1024 with 32768 colours. I have seen
1024x768 in 32768, which isn't far off, I'll admit. Also, the 32k colour
modes are a direct mapped 15-bit mode - it's not 32k out of a palette of 256k,
as you imply.
> 1985: 8Mhz 68000, 512x384, 2 colors on-screen, 2 colors in palette
> 1992: 25Mhz 68040, 640x480, 16,777,216 colors on-screen, 16,777,216 palette
For the IBMs you included 3rd party SVGA cards, so to be consistent, 24-bit
boards on the Mac are available with resolutions at least to 1280x1024.
>(AMIGA)
> 1985: 7Mhz 68000, 704x480, 4096 colors on-screen, 4096 colors in palette
> 1992: 25Mhz 68030, 704x480, 4096 colors on-screen, 4096 colors in palette
Try 1408x564 (superhires pal overscanned interlace), or 640x960 (productivity
interlace). Now, I'm the first to admit that the new modes aren't anything
to get excited over, but they do exist, and by denying that, you're not
helping your credibility. You can include the true facts, and still make a
good case that the Amiga chipset hasn't kept up with the times. Exaggeration
isn't necessary.
--
David Meiklejohn | Internet : davi...@qdpii.comp.qpdi.oz.au
Computer Systems Officer, QDPI | Fax : +61 70 92 3593
Mareeba, Australia | Voice : +61 70 92 1555
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Path: sparky!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!news.iastate.edu!barrett
From: barr...@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <1992May6.085101.18611@news.iastate.edu>
Sender: n...@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
References: <2622@creatures.cs.vt.edu> <1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
<1992May6.020719.875@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1992 08:51:01 GMT
Lines: 26
In article <1992May6.020719....@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au>
davi...@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn) writes:
>In article <1992May5.222810....@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>>(AMIGA)
>> 1985: 7Mhz 68000, 704x480, 4096 colors on-screen, 4096 colors in palette
>> 1992: 25Mhz 68030, 704x480, 4096 colors on-screen, 4096 colors in palette
>
>Try 1408x564 (superhires pal overscanned interlace), or 640x960 (productivity
>interlace). Now, I'm the first to admit that the new modes aren't anything
>to get excited over, but they do exist, and by denying that, you're not
>helping your credibility. You can include the true facts, and still make a
>good case that the Amiga chipset hasn't kept up with the times. Exaggeration
>isn't necessary.
I did not include any interlaced modes on the other systems, so I did
not include any for the Amiga stats. Besides, how useful is a 25Hz PAL
interlaced mode that flickers like a concert strobe light? (ICK!!) I was
consistant when I compared non-interlaced modes to non-interlaced modes.
>David Meiklejohn | Internet : davi...@qdpii.comp.qpdi.oz.au
>Computer Systems Officer, QDPI | Fax : +61 70 92 3593
>Mareeba, Australia | Voice : +61 70 92 1555
---
| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: barr...@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
Path: sparky!uunet!vtserf!creatures!csgrad.cs.vt.edu!lawsons
From: laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Shannon Lawson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <2626@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
Date: 6 May 92 12:06:55 GMT
References: <1992May4.214339.8580@news.iastate.edu> <2622@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
<1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
Sender: use...@creatures.cs.vt.edu
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Organization: VPI&SU Computer Science Department, Blacksburg, VA
Lines: 43
In article <1992May5.222810....@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>In article <2...@creatures.cs.vt.edu> laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Shannon Lawson)
writes:
>>In article <1992May4.214339.8...@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>
> I've been patient for the past seven years. I've lost patience.
>
> If you think our expectations are at all premature, I give you a comparison
>of top-of-the-line IBM, MAC, and Amiga systems seven years ago and today.
>
Although it is true that C= is somewhat behind right now, I think they're
trying to tell us that they're working to rectify the problem. Like I said,
let's see what happens. I'm sure they're trying to get whatever it is out
the door as soon as they can.
>Have you seen any Commodore
>delegations going from campus to campus demonstrating the virtues of Amiga
>video and multimedia?
Well, since I only go to school at one campus, I can only say this: YES!
We did have a C= "Technology Fair" here last year. They had the Toaster,
CDTV, DCTV, Mandala, A2024, etc...
> Well, Commodore did try getting the Amiga into many universities, but they
>gave up when their efforts did not produce big results after about two weeks.
They spent about 2 years here. We have around 200 students with Amigas (as
well as several faculty members who own them). There are Amigas in our
labs, and there's even a Toaster in the on-campus video production studio.
Sure, we all make mistakes, Marc! I still say we wait and see, and it sounds
like most of the responses to your original post are in agreement.
>---
>| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: barr...@iastate.edu
>--------------------------------------------------
> I Survived the Veishea 1992 Riots...
-----
Shannon Lawson, Virginia Tech || E-mail: laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu
"Knowledge is chimera, for beyond it ever lies other knowledge, and the
incompleteness of what is known renders the knowing false." - S.R. Donaldson
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!
destroyer!news.iastate.edu!barrett
From: barr...@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <1992May6.144926.29907@news.iastate.edu>
Sender: n...@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
References: <2622@creatures.cs.vt.edu> <1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
<2626@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1992 14:49:26 GMT
Lines: 56
In article <2...@creatures.cs.vt.edu> laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Shannon Lawson)
writes:
>In article <1992May5.222810....@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>>Have you seen any Commodore
>>delegations going from campus to campus demonstrating the virtues of Amiga
>>video and multimedia?
>
>Well, since I only go to school at one campus, I can only say this: YES!
>We did have a C= "Technology Fair" here last year. They had the Toaster,
>CDTV, DCTV, Mandala, A2024, etc...
>
>> Well, Commodore did try getting the Amiga into many universities, but they
>>gave up when their efforts did not produce big results after about two weeks.
>
>They spent about 2 years here. We have around 200 students with Amigas (as
>well as several faculty members who own them). There are Amigas in our
>labs, and there's even a Toaster in the on-campus video production studio.
I forgot that you are from Virginia Tech, one of a very tiny few
universities where Commodore has done anything at all. The bulk of colleges
and universities in the U.S. are much more like Iowa State, where you are
lucky to find three or four Amigas locked away in a private production lab,
and where MACs (or some other computer) are being used for video production
or multimedia presentations.
>Sure, we all make mistakes, Marc! I still say we wait and see, and it sounds
>like most of the responses to your original post are in agreement.
Commodore has not made any mistakes. They haven't done anything at all!
For the past two years, since Commodore gave up on getting Amigas into more
than or two universities across the U.S., I haven't heard a peep from
Commodore. Here, MACs are currently being used for many of the things that
the Amiga is supposedly strongly suited for, mainly because Commodore has
made any efforts whatsoever to make sure that Amigas are used instead.
If Commodore waits very much longer, MACs and IBMs will be so far entrenched
in the video and multimedia markets at the grassroots level that Commodore
won't have a prayer of digging them out.
> Shannon Lawson, Virginia Tech || E-mail: laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu
> "Knowledge is chimera, for beyond it ever lies other knowledge, and the
> incompleteness of what is known renders the knowing false." - S.R. Donaldson
>
---
| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: barr...@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
I Survived the ISU Veishea 1992 Riots
Path: sparky!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
malgudi.oar.net!sunc.osc.edu!insanity!derek
From: de...@insanity.tmc.edu (Dariusz Bolski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <1992May6.221841.8349@osc.edu>
Date: 6 May 92 22:18:41 GMT
References: <1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
<1992May6.020719.875@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au> <1992May6.085101.18611@news.iastate.edu>
Sender: n...@osc.edu (Newsmaker)
Organization: OSU, Advanced Computing Center for Arts & Design
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Nntp-Posting-Host: insanity.cgrg.ohio-state.edu
In article <1992May6.085101.18...@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
> Besides, how useful is a 25Hz PAL
>interlaced mode that flickers like a concert strobe light? (ICK!!)
I assure you that over a billion of folks watching PAL all over the world would
never give it up for NTSC. Your statement just says you have a personal problem.
>| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: barr...@iastate.edu
Dariusz Bolski
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!marlin.jcu.edu.au!cpca
From: c...@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams)
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <1992May7.023028.2336@marlin.jcu.edu.au>
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Organization: James Cook University, North Queensland
References: <1992May4.214339.8580@news.iastate.edu> <2622@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
<1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 May 92 02:30:28 GMT
Lines: 32
In article <1992May5.222810....@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
> If you think our expectations are at all premature, I give you a comparison
>of top-of-the-line IBM, MAC, and Amiga systems seven years ago and today.
>
[list deleted]
>
> This is basically a comparison of the progress that the various systems
>have made between 1985 and today. I will let you judge if I am being
>premature in judging Commodore's efforts.
Come on Marc! We know C= systems have inferior graphics, but we
also know the new chipset does exist and have a pretty good idea
what it can do. It seems pretty good to me. We may not get the
resolutions we want yet, but the once the bandwidth is there hopefully
future chipsets won't take as long.
We also know they are actually going to release the chipset in a new
machine/s this year. The C= engineers are probably working like hell to
get the system to work properly and keep as much old software as possible
compatible. Flaming on the net will not get the new machines out
any quicker.
Commodore are not IBM or Microsoft. They do not have the people or the money
to make such a huge jump to the next generation of machines
quickly. But it is going to happen and happen soon. All we can do
is wait and the poorer people on the net (like me) can start saving...
>| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: barr...@iastate.edu
--
Colin Adams Honours Student - James Cook University of North Queensland
"Everyone should believe in something - I believe I'll have another drink"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Path: sparky!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!mips!
munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!qdpii!davidme
From: davi...@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <1992May7.040130.29496@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au>
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
References: <1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
<1992May6.020719.875@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au> <1992May6.085101.18611@news.iastate.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1992 04:01:30 GMT
Lines: 45
In article <1992May6.085101.18...@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>In article <1992May6.020719....@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au>
davi...@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn) writes:
>>In article <1992May5.222810....@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>>>(AMIGA)
>>> 1985: 7Mhz 68000, 704x480, 4096 colors on-screen, 4096 colors in palette
>>> 1992: 25Mhz 68030, 704x480, 4096 colors on-screen, 4096 colors in palette
>>
>>Try 1408x564 (superhires pal overscanned interlace), or 640x960 (productivity
>>interlace).
>
> I did not include any interlaced modes on the other systems, so I did
>not include any for the Amiga stats.
No, that doesn't help you. In 1985, the highest Amiga noninterlaced resolution
was 704x220 (PAL wasn't introduced until 86), although overscan was almost
unknown at the time, so say 640x200 max res.
In 1992, it's possible (and fully supported by the OS) to use 704x564, which
is deinterlaced.
>Besides, how useful is a 25Hz PAL
>interlaced mode that flickers like a concert strobe light? (ICK!!)
For you, it's not, but superhires interlaced is really designed for video
titling work, which needs interlace, and needs to be PAL in Europe and
Australia.
>I was
>consistant when I compared non-interlaced modes to non-interlaced modes.
But, you included an interlaced mode for the Amiga in 85.
Anyway, your article suggested that there had been no improvement in Amiga
graphics since 85. This is patently wrong.
What you _are_ entitled to argue is that the improvements in Amiga video,
while welcome, haven't matched the improvement seen in other systems. Then,
I'd agree with you (up to a point).
--
David Meiklejohn | Internet : davi...@qdpii.comp.qpdi.oz.au
Computer Systems Officer, QDPI | Fax : +61 70 92 3593
Mareeba, Australia | Voice : +61 70 92 1555
Path: sparky!uunet!vtserf!creatures!csgrad.cs.vt.edu!lawsons
From: laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Shannon Lawson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <2630@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
Date: 7 May 92 12:30:21 GMT
References: <1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu> <2626@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
<1992May6.144926.29907@news.iastate.edu>
Sender: use...@creatures.cs.vt.edu
Organization: VPI&SU Computer Science Department, Blacksburg, VA
Lines: 26
In article <1992May6.144926.29...@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>In article <2...@creatures.cs.vt.edu> laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Shannon Lawson)
writes:
>
>>Sure, we all make mistakes, Marc! I still say we wait and see, and it sounds
>>like most of the responses to your original post are in agreement.
>
> Commodore has not made any mistakes. They haven't done anything at all!
You wouldn't call lack of action a mistake? Everything else in your posting
seems to suggest the opposite. Now I'll agree that C= could improve their
marketing strategies, especially here in the US. All I'm saying is that maybe
(just maybe!) they're going to turn that around this time. Yes, they do need
to act quickly. Yes, I've been frustrated at times with the lack of attention
to crucial developments. And yes, I believe that C= has a chance to make a
difference. I just think they deserve the chance.
>---
>| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: barr...@iastate.edu
>--------------------------------------------------
> I Survived the ISU Veishea 1992 Riots
-----
Shannon Lawson, Virginia Tech || E-mail: laws...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu
"Knowledge is chimera, for beyond it ever lies other knowledge, and the
incompleteness of what is known renders the knowing false." - S.R. Donaldson
Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!tandem!zorch!
amiga0!mykes
From: my...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
Message-ID: <mykes.5263@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Distribution: world
References: <1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
<1992May6.020719.875@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au> <1992May6.085101.18611@news.iastate.edu>
<1992May6.221841.8349@osc.edu>
X-NewsSoftware: Amiga GRn V1.29 4/25/92 (Beta) by Mike Schwartz
Date: 7 May 92 20:51:06 PST
Organization: Amiga makes it possible
Lines: 20
In article <1992May6.221841.8...@osc.edu> de...@insanity.tmc.edu (Dariusz Bolski)
writes:
>In article <1992May6.085101.18...@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>> Besides, how useful is a 25Hz PAL
>>interlaced mode that flickers like a concert strobe light? (ICK!!)
>
>I assure you that over a billion of folks watching PAL all over the world would
>never give it up for NTSC. Your statement just says you have a personal problem.
>
When I switch either of my two A3000's at work into PAL mode (both with multisync),
the screen does indeed flicker. Noticably. I see TV flicker all the time, too.
I'd still rather have PAL TV than NTSC.
--
Author of Amiga GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle,
and Genesis Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or my...@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024
Path: sparky!uunet!van-bc!outbound!pat_meloy
From: pat_me...@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca (Pat Meloy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <pat_meloy.07sf@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca>
References: <1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
<1992May6.020719.875@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au> <1992May6.085101.18611@news.iastate.edu>
<1992May6.221841.8349@osc.edu> <mykes.5263@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG>
X-NewsSoftware: Amiga GRn V1.29 4/25/92 (Beta) by Mike Schwartz
Date: 8 May 92 03:11:49 PDT
Lines: 19
In article <mykes.5...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> my...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
writes:
>In article <1992May6.221841.8...@osc.edu> de...@insanity.tmc.edu (Dariusz Bolski)
writes:
>>In article <1992May6.085101.18...@news.iastate.edu> barr...@iastate.edu
(Marc N Barrett) writes:
>>> Besides, how useful is a 25Hz PAL
>>>interlaced mode that flickers like a concert strobe light? (ICK!!)
>>
>>I assure you that over a billion of folks watching PAL all over the world would
>>never give it up for NTSC. Your statement just says you have a personal problem.
>>
>
>When I switch either of my two A3000's at work into PAL mode (both with multisync),
>the screen does indeed flicker. Noticably. I see TV flicker all the time, too.
>I'd still rather have PAL TV than NTSC.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Is this the right way 'round?
I was told that we NTSC folks see more flicker (more like a pulse isn't
it?) on PAL screens because our lighting systems are 60hz and clash with
the 50hz PAL displays. Has anyone looked at a PAL screen with the lights
off? Any diff?
Path: sparky!uunet!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <31045@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Date: 15 May 92 05:47:01 GMT
References: <1992May5.222810.518@news.iastate.edu>
<1992May6.020719.875@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au> <1992May6.085101.18611@news.iastate.edu>
<1992May6.221841.8349@osc.edu> <mykes.5263@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG>
<pat_meloy.07sf@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca>
Reply-To: da...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
Lines: 30
In article <pat_meloy.0...@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca> pat_me...@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca
(Pat Meloy) writes:
> I was told that we NTSC folks see more flicker (more like a pulse isn't
>it?) on PAL screens because our lighting systems are 60hz and clash with
>the 50hz PAL displays. Has anyone looked at a PAL screen with the lights
>off? Any diff?
There is some truth to that. If you have flourescent lights, you're getting
flashed at 60Hz, though you don't see it anymore than you see a Productivity
or "flickerFixed" screen flicker. However, if you have something that's
not quite the same frequency, such as PAL at 50Hz/25Hz update, you'll not
only see the flicker of PAL, you'll see a 10Hz beat generated between the
display and your lights. This doesn't happen with incadescent lights, or
in the dark. As for just plain PAL flickering, of course its flicker is
more visable than NTSC, you get something changing at a 25Hz rate rather
than 30Hz for NTSC. In TV use, as with NTSC, a PAL screen tends to display
real life moving images rather than static computer displays, so the
flicker isn't anywhere noticable as an Amiga displaying graphics using the
same kind of mode. I only notice NTSC flicker on computer generated
cable company graphics. I notice a bit more flicker on PAL, but more often
on slow scenes or those stupid and annyoing station ID icons everyone over
there seems to like sticking in the corner of the TV display (unfortunately,
these seem to be gradually making their way to the New World....).
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
{uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh BIX: hazy
"What would they do if I just sailed away?" -Jimmy Buffett
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!
news.iastate.edu!barrett
From: barr...@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: Position Statement from Commodore VP of Engineering
Message-ID: <1992May17.024044.28311@news.iastate.edu>
Sender: n...@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
References: <mykes.5263@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> <pat_meloy.07sf@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca>
<31045@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1992 02:40:44 GMT
Lines: 39
In article <31...@cbmvax.commodore.com> da...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
writes:
>There is some truth to that. If you have flourescent lights, you're getting
>flashed at 60Hz, though you don't see it anymore than you see a Productivity
>or "flickerFixed" screen flicker. However, if you have something that's
>not quite the same frequency, such as PAL at 50Hz/25Hz update, you'll not
>only see the flicker of PAL, you'll see a 10Hz beat generated between the
>display and your lights. This doesn't happen with incadescent lights, or
>in the dark.
I've tried that. I do not have any flourescent lights in my apartment, and
even with the incandescent lights off, I still discern flicker in non-
interlaced PAL mode. The flicker is different from the flicker in interlaced
mode, though. The parts of the screen that I am staring straight at do not
flicker, but any parts of the screen that might be in the periphery of my
vision flicker annoyingly. It is my guess that peripheral vision is more
susceptable to flicker. All in all, it still is enough for PAL to give me
headaches.
[stuff deleted]
>I notice a bit more flicker on PAL, but more often
>on slow scenes or those stupid and annyoing station ID icons everyone over
>there seems to like sticking in the corner of the TV display (unfortunately,
>these seem to be gradually making their way to the New World....).
Well, stations here in the Midwest have been using them for a couple of
years now. Ususally during movies, but most especially during syndicated TV
shows such as Star Trek TNG. (And, if you think that's bad, the Des Moines FOX
station puts the results of Lotto drawings up in the middle of ST-TNG epidodes!
ARRRG!!)
>Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
> {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh BIX: hazy
> "What would they do if I just sailed away?" -Jimmy Buffett
---
| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: barr...@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------