Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!sunic!dkuug!daimi!u920659
From: u920...@daimi.aau.dk (Carsten S|rensen)
Subject: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <1992Nov2.104323.2393@daimi.aau.dk>
Keywords: hardware
Sender: u920...@daimi.aau.dk (Carsten S|rensen)
Organization: DAIMI: Computer Science Department, Aarhus University, Denmark
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 92 10:43:23 GMT
Lines: 6

Just wondering... With the new AGA chipset will C= release
a new hardware reference guide? And when?

				Carsten Soerensen
				u920...@daimi.aau.dk

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
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From: s377...@snakemail.hut.fi (Markus Juhani Aalto)
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
In-Reply-To: u920659@daimi.aau.dk's message of Mon, 2 Nov 92 10:43:23 GMT
Message-ID: <S37732V.92Nov2161634@lk-hp-3.hut.fi>
Sender: use...@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lk-hp-3.hut.fi
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
References: <1992Nov2.104323.2393@daimi.aau.dk>
Date: 02 Nov 92 14:16:34 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <1992Nov2.104323.2...@daimi.aau.dk> u920...@daimi.aau.dk 
(Carsten S|rensen) writes:

   Just wondering... With the new AGA chipset will C= release
   a new hardware reference guide? And when?

				   Carsten Soerensen
				   u920...@daimi.aau.dk

Mike Sinz has stated that there won't be new hardware reference manual!
If you want to use features provided by AGA chips you have to use OS from
now on.
--


**************************************************************************
*         Markus Aalto              | Helsinki University of Technology  *
*                                   |                                    *
*  EMail: s377...@vipunen.hut.fi    | Faculty of Electric Engineering    *
*  Fax:   358-0-8746991 (Sometimes) |                                    *
*                                   | Undergraduate in Computer Science  *
**************************************************************************

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From: mc...@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <1992Nov2.201536.9913@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: 2 Nov 92 20:15:36 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620
Lines: 35

In article <S37732V.92Nov2161...@lk-hp-3.hut.fi> s377...@snakemail.hut.fi 
(Markus Juhani Aalto) writes:

>In article <1992Nov2.104323.2...@daimi.aau.dk> u920...@daimi.aau.dk 
(Carsten S|rensen) writes:
>
>   Just wondering... With the new AGA chipset will C= release
>   a new hardware reference guide? And when?
>
>				   Carsten Soerensen
>				   u920...@daimi.aau.dk
>
>Mike Sinz has stated that there won't be new hardware reference manual!
>If you want to use features provided by AGA chips you have to use OS from
>now on.
>--

This seems a bit silly, for two reasons:

	1) It would be interesting to read about the AGA chip-set

	2) Someone, somewhere, sooner or later, will disassemble the 3.0
	   Kickstart to figure out how to program the new chips directly
	   (I would, if I had the ROM... :-( ), and there's nothing to stop
	   that person releasing any information they may find.

>**************************************************************************
>*         Markus Aalto              | Helsinki University of Technology  *
>*                                   |                                    *
>*  EMail: s377...@vipunen.hut.fi    | Faculty of Electric Engineering    *
>*  Fax:   358-0-8746991 (Sometimes) |                                    *
>*                                   | Undergraduate in Computer Science  *
>**************************************************************************
        
	-- Mark Knibbs
	ed93...@black.ox.ac.uk	<< New address
	mc...@vax.ox.ac.uk	<< Old address

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From: ja...@cdevil.unx.sas.com (James Cooper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <Bx5Ao0.4JJ@unx.sas.com>
Date: 3 Nov 92 14:52:48 GMT
References: <1992Nov2.201536.9913@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
Sender: n...@unx.sas.com (Noter of Newsworthy Events)
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Nntp-Posting-Host: cdevil.unx.sas.com


In article <1992Nov2.201536.9...@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, mc...@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>In article <S37732V.92Nov2161...@lk-hp-3.hut.fi> s377...@snakemail.hut.fi 
(Markus Juhani Aalto) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Nov2.104323.2...@daimi.aau.dk> u920...@daimi.aau.dk 
(Carsten S|rensen) writes:
>>
>>   Just wondering... With the new AGA chipset will C= release
>>   a new hardware reference guide? And when?
>>
>>                                 Carsten Soerensen
>>                                 u920...@daimi.aau.dk
>>
>>Mike Sinz has stated that there won't be new hardware reference manual!
>>If you want to use features provided by AGA chips you have to use OS from
>>now on.
>>--
>
>This seems a bit silly, for two reasons:
>
>       1) It would be interesting to read about the AGA chip-set
>
>       2) Someone, somewhere, sooner or later, will disassemble the 3.0
>          Kickstart to figure out how to program the new chips directly
>          (I would, if I had the ROM... :-( ), and there's nothing to stop
>          that person releasing any information they may find.

Nothing but good sense, if they have any.  Everyone seems to want to be
able to bang directly on the hardware, but they also want retargetable
graphics.  Sorry, folks, you can't have both.

If everyone will simply start using the system calls to work with the
display, instead of bangin' bits, maybe the system can move forward a
little.  We probably could have had RTG already, if it weren't for all
the bit bangers screaming about things not working on new machines...

-- 
---------------
Jim Cooper
(ja...@unx.sas.com)                             bix: jcooper

Any opinions expressed herein are mine (Mine, all mine!  Ha, ha, ha!),
and not necessarily those of my employer.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Path: sparky!uunet!utcsri!torn!cunews!nrcnet0!bnrgate!bmerh85!bmerh85!hamish
From: Hamish.Macdon...@x400gate.bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald)
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
In-Reply-To: jamie@cdevil.unx.sas.com's message of Tue, 3 Nov 1992 14:52:48 GMT
Message-ID: <1992Nov03.173522.27765@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
Lines: 11
Sender: n...@bmerh85.bnr.ca (Usenet News)
Organization: Bell Northern Research
References: <1992Nov2.201536.9913@vax.oxford.ac.uk> <Bx5Ao0.4JJ@unx.sas.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 17:35:22 GMT

>>>>> On Tue, 3 Nov 1992 14:52:48 GMT,
>>>>> In message <Bx5Ao0....@unx.sas.com>,
>>>>> ja...@cdevil.unx.sas.com (James Cooper) wrote:

James> If everyone will simply start using the system calls to work
James> with the display, instead of bangin' bits, maybe the system can
James> move forward a little.  We probably could have had RTG already,
James> if it weren't for all the bit bangers screaming about things
James> not working on new machines...

What about those wanting to write their own operating system?

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Path: sparky!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!paladin.american.edu!
news.univie.ac.at!hp4at!mcsun!sunic!seunet!pop!bjst
From: b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn Stenberg)
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <1992Nov4.134857.24783@sth.frontec.se>
Nntp-Posting-Host: pop.sth.frontec.se
Organization: IDK/Frontec, Sweden
References: <1992Nov2.201536.9913@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Nov 92 13:48:57 GMT
Lines: 42

 u920...@daimi.aau.dk (Carsten S|rensen) writes:
>>> Just wondering... With the new AGA chipset will C= release
>>> a new hardware reference guide? And when?

 s377...@snakemail.hut.fi (Markus Juhani Aalto) writes:
>> Mike Sinz has stated that there won't be new hardware reference manual!

 mc...@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Mark Knibbs) writes:
>	2) Someone, somewhere, sooner or later, will disassemble the 3.0
>	   Kickstart to figure out how to program the new chips directly
>	   (I would, if I had the ROM... :-( ), and there's nothing to stop
>	   that person releasing any information they may find.

True, but I don't think this person will induce as much potential damage as
if CBM published the AGA specs in - say - the RKRMs.
No Amiga documentation (perhaps with the exception of some Fred Fish submitted
stuff) reaches as many software developers as does the RKRMs.

By not releasing hard core hw specs CBM can limit the amount of poorly written
software produced. Those who really want to go on the hardware will do so
anyway, no matter what CBM does.

CBM used to release hw references for (almost) everything in the Amiga, but
a lot of people misused it, and produced bad working software.
This imposed a lot of work and expenses on CBM, money which I'm sure could
have been used for better purposes.

I applause CBMs initiative NOT to release the hw refs. Aren't you too tired of
software not working on the new Amigas?
It's been the same thing with all the new Amigas now, A500->A3000,
A3000->A4000 etc. Lot's of software doesn't work, partly because is goes
directly on the hardware instead of following CBM guidelines.

I'M FED UP!!!

Thanks Commodore.

		-- Bjorn

      ///  Bjorn Stenberg, Stockholm, Sweden         b...@sth.frontec.se
     ///  main() { printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);}
\\\ ///  "- Your documentation no longer confuses me, old version!"

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cmcl2!psinntp!psinntp!viper!news
From: br...@visix.com (Brett Bourbin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <BxGvwE.4op@visix.com>
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:05:01 GMT
References: <1992Nov4.134857.24783@sth.frontec.se>
Sender: n...@visix.com
Reply-To: br...@visix.com
Organization: Visix Software, Reston, Virginia
Lines: 22

In article <1992Nov4.134857.24...@sth.frontec.se> b...@sth.frontec.se  
(Bjorn Stenberg) writes:
> By not releasing hard core hw specs CBM can limit the amount of poorly  
written
> software produced.

Please! Hitting the hardware != POORLY Written Software

There is well done software to has to go to the hardware
There is poor software that goes to the hardware
There is well done software that uses the OS
There is poor software that uses the OS

>       ///  Bjorn Stenberg, Stockholm, Sweden         b...@sth.frontec.se
>      ///  main() {  
printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);}
> \\\ ///  "- Your documentation no longer confuses me, old version!"

--			       __
Brett Bourbin		\  / /(_  /\/  11440 Commerce Park Drive
  br...@visix.com	 \/ / __)/ /\  Reston, Virginia 22091
  ..uupsi!visix!brett	 Software Inc  703.758.8230

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From: b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn Stenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <1992Nov11.124537.21704@sth.frontec.se>
Date: 11 Nov 92 12:45:37 GMT
References: <1992Nov4.134857.24783@sth.frontec.se> <BxGvwE.4op@visix.com>
Organization: IDK/Frontec - System Design Group
Lines: 25
Nntp-Posting-Host: pop.sth.frontec.se

b...@sth.frontec.se  (Bjorn Stenberg) writes:
> > By not releasing hard core hw specs CBM can limit the amount of poorly  
> > written software produced.

br...@visix.com writes:
> Please! Hitting the hardware != POORLY Written Software

Sure, there's lots of shit banging the hardware and works. Unfortunately,
there's even more shit banging the hardware which does *NOT* work.

I think saying that 'the less people are hitting hardware the more programs
are likely to work well' is a pretty fair statement.

Problems arise because when our friend the hacker gets 250+ registers to
schmack and hit anyway he likes, he's likely to do something wrong.
If he instead gets a few simple, properly written routines to do it, he'll
have a greater chance of getting away with what he wants to accomplish.

I never said -all- hardware hitting software was bad software.

		-- Bjorn

       ///  Bjorn Stenberg, Stockholm, Sweden         b...@sth.frontec.se
      ///  main() { printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);}
 \\\ ///  "- Your documentation no longer confuses me, old version!"

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!sunic!dkuug!imada!news
From: bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese)
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <1992Nov11.150900.15090@imada.ou.dk>
Sender: n...@imada.ou.dk (USENET News System)
Organization: Dept. of Math. & Computer Science, Odense University, Denmark
References: <1992Nov11.124537.21704@sth.frontec.se>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:09:00 GMT
Lines: 12

In article <1992Nov11.124537.21...@sth.frontec.se> b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn  
Stenberg) writes:
> I think saying that 'the less people are hitting hardware the more programs
> are likely to work well' is a pretty fair statement.

Consider this: "The more knowledge people have about the hardware the more
likely their programs will work well."

--

Bjoern Reese                   |     Email: bre...@imada.ou.dk
Odense University, Denmark     |     Voice: +45 65 932 182 (private)

Path: sparky!uunet!pipex!warwick!uknet!mcsun!sunic!seunet!pop!bjst
From: b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn Stenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <1992Nov15.104025.10090@sth.frontec.se>
Date: 15 Nov 92 10:40:25 GMT
References: <1992Nov11.124537.21704@sth.frontec.se> 
<1992Nov11.150900.15090@imada.ou.dk>
Organization: IDK/Frontec - System Design Group
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: pop.sth.frontec.se

bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) writes:
> Consider this: "The more knowledge people have about the hardware the more
> likely their programs will work well."

Well, this HAS been tested for the past seven years, with little success...

		-- Bjorn

       ///  Bjorn Stenberg, Stockholm, Sweden         b...@sth.frontec.se
      ///  main() { printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);}
 \\\ ///  "- Your documentation no longer confuses me, old version!"

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!sunic!dkuug!imada!news
From: bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese)
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <1992Nov16.130752.18379@imada.ou.dk>
Sender: n...@imada.ou.dk (USENET News System)
Organization: Dept. of Math. & Computer Science, Odense University, Denmark
References: <1992Nov15.104025.10090@sth.frontec.se>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:07:52 GMT
Lines: 64

In article <1992Nov15.104025.10...@sth.frontec.se> b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn  
Stenberg) writes:
> bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) writes:
> > Consider this: "The more knowledge people have about the hardware the more
> > likely their programs will work well."
> 
> Well, this HAS been tested for the past seven years, with little success...

IMHO, there are four reasons to this lack of success:

1) The Seka assembler.
   It was extremely popular in the demo scene, because it
   gave you the feeling of total control over the machine.
   Most of the coders came from the C64, or a similar 8 bit
   machine, and they wanted to know exactly what was going
   on at any time. The Seka assembler allowed the continuation
   of the bad programming style of the 8 bit machines.

2) The "Machine Language" book from Abacus.
   Being the only book easily available which claimed to
   teach you Assembly Language, it rose to fame. Sadly it
   a) contained a huge amount of bugs, and b) supported
   the Seka assembler.

3) The early version of the Hardware Reference Guide.
   This manual is amoung the worst documentations I've ever
   seen. Cryptical explanations, lousy (even buggy) examples.
   Anyone having tried to figure out how to draw lines, or
   using the CIAs, will know what I mean.

4) The demo scene was/is a learning ground for upcomming
   programmers.
   People make mistakes; beginners more than experienced.
   Some of these mistakes continued to flourish as sourcecodes
   and tricks were shared amoung coders. Problem was/is, that
   many coders rather get famous quick, than learn the craft
   well, so they just copied the code of other coders.

Now, this shows us that C= was partly to blame, because of
their incomprehensive Hardware Ref Guide. Well, the Hardware
Ref Guide was partly unusable, and besides only a minority of
the upcomming coders had a copy, but did that stop them? NO!
My prediction is that it will not stop them either, if C=
doesn't release a new Hardware Ref Guide, featuring the AGA
chips. As the AGA chips are made available in low-price
machines, and hence available to new upcomming coders, there
will a massive interest in how to program the chips, and
with or without a Guide, they will try. So I say, it is better
to release a new Guide, in order to set guidelines and to
prevent fatal errors.

Also, I think this discussion is biased. Most of the people
on Internet are students at college or university level, or
employees at a commercial company. This kind of people are
well educated in programming, and if some of them were raised
in the demo scene, they most likely have converted (like me.)
Even though we are Amiga users, I don't think that we
represent a very wide variety of the common Amiga users.
I am not complaining, just trying to set things in perspective.

--

Bjoern Reese                   |     Email: bre...@imada.ou.dk
Odense University, Denmark     |     Voice: +45 65 932 182 (private)

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agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!mcsun!fuug!funic!news.cs.hut.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!oahvenla
From: oahve...@snakemail.hut.fi (Osma Ahvenlampi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <OAHVENLA.92Nov17002933@lk-hp-4.hut.fi>
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:29:33 GMT
References: <1992Nov15.104025.10090@sth.frontec.se> 
<1992Nov16.130752.18379@imada.ou.dk>
Sender: use...@cs.hut.fi (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Lines: 20
In-Reply-To: breese@monet.imada.ou.dk's message of Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:07:52 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.130752.18...@imada.ou.dk> bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk 
(Bjoern Reese) writes:
[...]
>doesn't release a new Hardware Ref Guide, featuring the AGA
>chips. As the AGA chips are made available in low-price
>machines, and hence available to new upcomming coders, there
>will a massive interest in how to program the chips, and
>with or without a Guide, they will try. So I say, it is better
>to release a new Guide, in order to set guidelines and to
>prevent fatal errors.

This is the whole point. C= won't release the Hardware information, because
that would mean saying that it's OK to directly access hardware, when it's
not. They don't, on the other hand, mind if some coder works out the
addresses from graphics.library, even if he gets them wrong, as everyone, who
really wants to have his programs work correctly, doesn't use this info.
Democoders can use it all they want, it's not a big deal if demos crash
on new computers, they've been crashing left and right since the start.
--
Osma Ahvenlampi  -  oahve...@snakemail.hut.fi   * Workstation power for micro-
All my opinions are not necessarily really mine * computer price: Amiga := FUN

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podesta
From: pode...@qut.edu.au
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <1992Nov18.134641.58767@qut.edu.au>
Date: 18 Nov 92 13:46:41 EST
References: <1992Nov15.104025.10090@sth.frontec.se> 
<1992Nov16.130752.18379@imada.ou.dk> <OAHVENLA.92Nov17002933@lk-hp-4.hut.fi>
Organization: Queensland University of Technology
Lines: 32

In article <OAHVENLA.92Nov17002...@lk-hp-4.hut.fi>, oahve...@snakemail.hut.fi 
(Osma Ahvenlampi) writes:
> In article <1992Nov16.130752.18...@imada.ou.dk> bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk 
(Bjoern Reese) writes:
> [...]
>>doesn't release a new Hardware Ref Guide, featuring the AGA
> 
> This is the whole point. C= won't release the Hardware information, because
> that would mean saying that it's OK to directly access hardware, when it's

I don't get it. What's the big deal????
Why don't Commodore just release it and say something like:

"BANGING THE HARDWARE IS NOT UPWARDLY COMPATIBLE"

Then all of us who don't give a damn about upward compatibility
(ie. in demos and some games) can write our demos and have fun, and
those who want to write software that will last forever can go through
the OS.

People have argued that you should write a ECS version, using hardware, and
include an OS friendly AGA version. WHY??? If your gonna go to all that
trouble, just write an ECS version, and change the hardware routines
for the AGA versions. Even machine code can be modular :) If a new machine
comes out, we insert new code. This way we are always getting the most out
of the system...rather than just wasting MIPS by going through the OS.

I mean the OS is GREAT. I love it. It's one of the reasons that Amiga rules..
but its a development environment, not a demo or game environment.


James.

Disclaimer: The above opinions are mine...obviously

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!sunic!dkuug!imada!news
From: bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese)
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
Message-ID: <1992Nov19.140544.28847@imada.ou.dk>
Sender: n...@imada.ou.dk (USENET News System)
Organization: Dept. of Math. & Computer Science, Odense University, Denmark
References: <1992Nov18.134641.58767@qut.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:05:44 GMT
Lines: 46

In article <1992Nov18.134641.58...@qut.edu.au> pode...@qut.edu.au writes:
> In article <OAHVENLA.92Nov17002...@lk-hp-4.hut.fi>, oahve...@snakemail.hut.fi  
(Osma Ahvenlampi) writes:
> >                          C= won't release the Hardware information, because
> > that would mean saying that it's OK to directly access hardware, when it's
> 
> I don't get it. What's the big deal????
> Why don't Commodore just release it and say something like:
> 
> "BANGING THE HARDWARE IS NOT UPWARDLY COMPATIBLE"
> 
> Then all of us who don't give a damn about upward compatibility
> (ie. in demos and some games) can write our demos and have fun, and
> those who want to write software that will last forever can go through
> the OS.

That is EXACTLY how I feel too. The demo won't run on a new chipset, but
so what? I don't care. There's no, or little, money in doing demos. We're
doing demos for the fun of it.

You people with the big machines actually have an option: Don't watch
demos!!! If you're so afraid that demos will crash your machine or
that it may harm your hardware, don't watch demos! If C= doesn't
release the hardware specs, I can ensure you that it doesn't mean
that democoders will start producing OS-demos; more likely they will
leave the Amiga world.

Why can't you let us write our demos and have the fun what we want?

> I mean the OS is GREAT. I love it. It's one of the reasons that Amiga rules..
> but its a development environment, not a demo or game environment.

I agree again. The OS is GREAT, and I can understand that the software
engineers at C= aren't feeling too happy about people like me, when I
stuff the OS, which they have been working hard at for several years. But
I think that every programmer should be given to freedom to do as he/she
likes, based on guidelines from C=. If we don't care about upwards
compatibility, it's our problem (we probably never intended these
programs to run on a future machine; we made them to show what the
current machine can do, and remember: we never got any money for our
efforts!!)

--

Bjoern Reese                   |     Email: bre...@imada.ou.dk
Odense University, Denmark     |     Voice: +45 65 932 182 (private)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Path: sparky!uunet!utcsri!skule.ecf!torn!nott!bnrgate!bmerh85!bmerh85!hamish
From: Hamish.Macdon...@x400gate.bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald)
Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide?
In-Reply-To: breese@monet.imada.ou.dk's message of 19 Nov 92 14:05:44 GMT
Message-ID: <1992Nov19.182351.3063@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
Lines: 30
Sender: n...@bmerh85.bnr.ca (Usenet News)
Organization: Bell Northern Research
References: <1992Nov18.134641.58767@qut.edu.au> <1992Nov19.140544.28847@imada.ou.dk>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 18:23:51 GMT

>>>>> On 19 Nov 92 14:05:44 GMT,
>>>>> In message <1992Nov19.140544.28...@imada.ou.dk>,
>>>>> bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) wrote:

Bjoern> I agree again. The OS is GREAT, and I can understand that the
Bjoern> software engineers at C= aren't feeling too happy about people
Bjoern> like me, when I stuff the OS, which they have been working
Bjoern> hard at for several years.

Bjoern> But I think that every programmer should be given to freedom
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bjoern> to do as he/she likes, based on guidelines from C=. If we
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bjoern> don't care about upwards compatibility, it's our problem (we
Bjoern> probably never intended these programs to run on a future
Bjoern> machine; we made them to show what the current machine can do,
Bjoern> and remember: we never got any money for our efforts!!)

That's exactly what is happening.

Commodore's guidelines in this case are:

  "We are not going to do anything at all to help you program this
   machine other than use the OS routines."

They're not *stopping* you from banging the hardware, they're just not
telling you how to do it.

Nothing is stopping you from investigating the hardware and figuring
out how to do it yourselves.