Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Path: sparky!uunet!gumby!wupost!eclnews!wucs1!amc
From: a...@wucs1.wustl.edu (Adam Costello)
Subject: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware Manual)
Message-ID: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
Keywords: hardware reference manual
Sender: use...@wuecl.wustl.edu (News Administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: wucs1
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 00:00:37 GMT
Lines: 41
One of the things I loved most about my old C-64 was the custom
hardware. It was documented, so I could program it, experiment with
it, and play with it.
One of the main reasons I chose to buy an Amiga was that I was
impressed by the hardware. I knew that there was much less useful
software for the Amiga, but that's not what turns me on.
For people who want their computers to be productive and don't want to
have to think too hard, there's Apple and IBM. For people who want to
enjoy their computers, and especially for people who want to enjoy
programming their computers, there's Amiga.
If Commodore refuses to release a hardware manual for future Amigas,
they will be betraying their most loyal customers, the very customers
for whom IBM and Apple were never even an option. Commodore should
compete by striving to be different from its competitors, not by trying
to mimic them. Compatibility has always been one of the strengths of
IBM and Apple. Capability has always been the strength of Amiga. The
Amiga can do things other computers simply cannot do, but only if
programmers know how the machine works.
If the OS is documented, programmers can choose to use it for
compatibility. If the hardware is documented, programmers can choose
to use it for capability. If both are documented, the programmer has a
choice. It's a trade-off that is best evaluated by the programmer on a
per-program basis, not once-and-for-all by Commodore.
If Commodore fails to document the hardware, lots of Commodore's paying
customers will suffer. They may even desert.
And if none of the above is convincing, consider this: hackers will
figure out much of the hardware anyway, but not all of it, which is an
even more dangerous situation than the one Commodore is afraid of. If
Commodore does document the hardware, at least hardware programmers
have a chance to know what they're doing, and Commodore can make some
money from books sales.
It's not too late for a change-of-mind!
AMC
Nntp-Posting-Host: kolsaas.ifi.uio.no
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!sunic!aun.uninett.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!stigo
From: st...@ifi.uio.no (Stig Arne Olsen)
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware Manual)
Message-ID: <1992Nov18.124549.12281@ifi.uio.no>
Keywords: hardware reference manual
Sender: st...@ifi.uio.no (Stig Arne Olsen)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:45:49 GMT
Lines: 14
Originator: st...@kolsaas.ifi.uio.no
This problem can be solved very easily. In the U.S., where the coders
want to run their c-coded spreadsheets in 24 bit color - relase NO
hardware ref. In Europe, very there is still some fun involved in
programming, release it!
I do feel a bit sorry for the people trying to port Linux, however,
but then again, C= is probably to proud of their Unix efforts so they
won't make it easy for other people to make a freely distributable version.
--
| Stig A. Olsen | st...@ifi.uio.no | "Ja til EF" |
| Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a baseball bat. |
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Path: sparky!uunet!nwnexus!uw-coco!uw-beaver!june.cs.washington.edu!wille
From: wi...@june.cs.washington.edu (Robert Wille)
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware Manual)
Message-ID: <1992Nov18.225947.5840@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
Keywords: hardware reference manual
Sender: n...@beaver.cs.washington.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.edu> <1992Nov18.124549.12281@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 22:59:47 GMT
Lines: 31
In article <1992Nov18.124549.12...@ifi.uio.no>, st...@ifi.uio.no (Stig Arne Olsen)
writes:
|>
|> This problem can be solved very easily. In the U.S., where the coders
|> want to run their c-coded spreadsheets in 24 bit color - relase NO
|> hardware ref. In Europe, very there is still some fun involved in
|> programming, release it!
|>
|> I do feel a bit sorry for the people trying to port Linux, however,
|> but then again, C= is probably to proud of their Unix efforts so they
|> won't make it easy for other people to make a freely distributable version.
|>
|> --
|> | Stig A. Olsen | st...@ifi.uio.no | "Ja til EF" |
|> | Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a baseball bat. |
If you've been following the thread 'New hardware reference guide?' you
would know that someone (I forgot who) from C= stated that people working
on OS's would be able to hardware docs. Just because there isn't a
hardware reference guide doesn't mean that documentation on the hardware
doesn't exist. According to the previously mentioned article, people who
have a *legitimate* reason (creating the best-ever demo doesn't qualify
as a legitimate reason) for needing docs on the hardware will be able
to get them. I don't know if the Linux group will be able to get
documentation or not, but I hope so and it isn't too unreasonable that
they will.
--
Robert
There is evidence that the brain is like a computer. If that's true,
then there really aren't any stupid people. Just people running DOS.
Nntp-Posting-Host: sognsvann.ifi.uio.no
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!sunic!aun.uninett.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!stigo
From: st...@ifi.uio.no (Stig Arne Olsen)
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware Manual)
Message-ID: <1992Nov19.154759.12082@ifi.uio.no>
Keywords: hardware reference manual
Sender: st...@ifi.uio.no (Stig Arne Olsen)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.edu> <1992Nov18.124549.12281@ifi.uio.no>
<1992Nov18.225947.5840@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:47:59 GMT
Lines: 38
Originator: st...@sognsvann.ifi.uio.no
In article <1992Nov18.225947.5...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>,
wi...@june.cs.washington.edu (Robert Wille) writes:
> In article <1992Nov18.124549.12...@ifi.uio.no>, st...@ifi.uio.no
(Stig Arne Olsen) writes:
> |> [my stuff]
> If you've been following the thread 'New hardware reference guide?' you
> would know that someone (I forgot who) from C= stated that people working
> on OS's would be able to hardware docs. Just because there isn't a
Well, so they think it's better that SOME get the hardware ref., but not
all? That SUCKS!
> hardware reference guide doesn't mean that documentation on the hardware
> doesn't exist. According to the previously mentioned article, people who
I never said that the documentation did not exist, the whole discussion
here is whether it should be made available to the public or not.
I imagine it's pretty hard to design new chips without documenting how
they work :-)
> have a *legitimate* reason (creating the best-ever demo doesn't qualify
> as a legitimate reason) for needing docs on the hardware will be able
> to get them. I don't know if the Linux group will be able to get
> documentation or not, but I hope so and it isn't too unreasonable that
> they will.
I doubt it. Linux is not a commercial product, so it wouldn't surprise me
a bit if C= wouldn't release it to them. I also remember one time that
someone wanted to include some CLI-commands in their public-domain work,
this was something _everybody_ already had, and would only make it more
easy to install the utility (forgive me for not remembering the exact
program),but Commodore refused. I have no reason to think they have
become more easy to deal with now.
> --
> Robert
--
| Stig A. Olsen | st...@ifi.uio.no | "Ja til EF" |
| Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a baseball bat. |
Path: sparky!uunet!cbmvax!bj
From: b...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Brian Jackson - Amiga Networking)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware Manual)
Message-ID: <37190@cbmvax.commodore.com>
Date: 21 Nov 92 00:26:37 GMT
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.edu> <1992Nov18.124549.12281@ifi.uio.no>
<1992Nov18.225947.5840@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
<1992Nov19.154759.12082@ifi.uio.no>
Reply-To: b...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Brian Jackson - Amiga Networking)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
Lines: 64
Keywords: hardware reference manual
In article <1992Nov19.154759.12...@ifi.uio.no> st...@ifi.uio.no
(Stig Arne Olsen) writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.225947.5...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>,
wi...@june.cs.washington.edu (Robert Wille) writes:
>> ... someone (I forgot who) from C= stated that people working
>> on OS's would be able to hardware docs. Just because there isn't a
>Well, so they think it's better that SOME get the hardware ref., but not
>all? That SUCKS!
Hey. Commodore makes the chips, Commodore makes the machines,
Commodore writes the docs, Commodore pays the engineers and Commodore
decides what does and does not get released to the public.
We did it your way up til now and it created FAR more problems for
engineering, users and developers than it was worth. So, this time,
we're doing it differently. If, in your view, that "SUCKS!" then so
be it. The fact is that "demo coders", while creating 'neato' things
to look at, do little or nothing for sales and they create an entire
generation of Amiga programmers that have failed to learn how to do it
right. The result is application software (you know, the stuff that
people pay MONEY for and expect to work on new machines) that is chock
full of silly, pointless coding errors and, often, _slower_ code than
if it had been coded properly from the start.
>> hardware reference guide doesn't mean that documentation on the hardware
>> doesn't exist. According to the previously mentioned article, people who
>
>I never said that the documentation did not exist, the whole discussion
>here is whether it should be made available to the public or not.
>I imagine it's pretty hard to design new chips without documenting how
>they work :-)
No. A discussion is where people _discuss_ a topic. What we have here
is people _demanding_ something and then complaining like children
when they are told "no".
>> have a *legitimate* reason (creating the best-ever demo doesn't qualify
>> as a legitimate reason) for needing docs on the hardware will be able
>> to get them. I don't know if the Linux group will be able to get
>> documentation or not, but I hope so and it isn't too unreasonable that
>> they will.
>I doubt it. Linux is not a commercial product, so it wouldn't surprise me
>a bit if C= wouldn't release it to them. I also remember one time that
>someone wanted to include some CLI-commands in their public-domain work,
>this was something _everybody_ already had, and would only make it more
>easy to install the utility (forgive me for not remembering the exact
>program),but Commodore refused. I have no reason to think they have
>become more easy to deal with now.
Please don't spread such bogus mythology. Anyone with an application that
requires any/all of the Workbench files on their distribution can
acquire a Workbench license for a _small_ fee and have at it. Matt
Dillon's DICE (registered version) comes with this. No big deal.
There is nothing whatsoever "hard to deal with" with that.
>> Robert
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Brian Jackson Amiga Networking Group, Commodore-Amiga Inc.
b...@cbmvax.commodore.com
{uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!bj or network...@cbmvax.commodore.com
uva uvam vivendo varia fit
Path: sparky!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!joeles
From: joe...@cup.portal.com (Joel Edward Swan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware
Message-ID: <70081@cup.portal.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 19:29:03 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.edu>
<1992Nov18.124549.12281@ifi.uio.no>
<1992Nov18.225947.5840@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
<1992Nov19.154759.12082@ifi.uio.no> <37190@cbmvax.commodore.com>
<1992Nov21.123328.10653@ifi.uio.no>
Lines: 91
>
>In article <37...@cbmvax.commodore.com>, b...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Brian Jackso
n
> - Amiga Networking) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov19.154759.12...@ifi.uio.no> st...@ifi.uio.no (Stig Arne O
l
>sen) writes:
>> Hey. Commodore makes the chips, Commodore makes the machines,
>> Commodore writes the docs, Commodore pays the engineers and Commodore
>> decides what does and does not get released to the public.
>
>We all know that, but who buys the machines? Commodore?
So what?
>
>> We did it your way up til now and it created FAR more problems for
>> engineering, users and developers than it was worth. So, this time,
>> we're doing it differently. If, in your view, that "SUCKS!" then so
>> be it. The fact is that "demo coders", while creating 'neato' things
>> to look at, do little or nothing for sales and they create an entire
>> generation of Amiga programmers that have failed to learn how to do it
>> right. The result is application software (you know, the stuff that
>> people pay MONEY for and expect to work on new machines) that is chock
>> full of silly, pointless coding errors and, often, _slower_ code than
>> if it had been coded properly from the start.
>
>Ok, if you didn't like my use choice of words, I'm sorry, no offence
>intended.
>
>I think you missed my point earlier that a lot of people buy machines
>because of the demos. This is something that is very unique for the Amiga.
All I can say to this is BULL. I've been with the Amiga since 1985. I know
0 (that's zero) people who dished out between $500US and $3000Us to buy an
Amiga for some demos. I DO know of dozens who have bought Amigas because
they run software that either makes money for them or can entertain for more
than 5 minutes.
>So, I think your point about not doing anything for sales is wrong.
And 99.99% of Amiga owners think your lame reasons are wrong.
>How many A500 vs A3000 has there been sold? If you don't release any
>new machines between the A1200 and A4000, I think you will see that the
>same thing will happen again, the A1200 will be the clear winner.
>I don't know if you guys at Commodore have even seen programs like ProTracker,
>that have become almost a standard in the demo world. Now there even exists
>mod-players for ms-dos machines!
Does protracker break all of the OS, kill multitasking and go entirely to
the hardware? No? Wow! So why are you using it as an illustration? It
doesn't belong here.
>I wouldn't blame you (C=) if you redesigned the whole chip-set so that all
>hardware coded stuff broke. It's not your problem if my code doesn't work!
Ah, but how wrong you are. When programs break, users get hacked off. This
gives the machine a bad name and can sink sales. Remember, you wouldn't be
the only one going directly to the hardware. Unfortunately, "serious"
applications would do the same because it's a bad habit.
>And you must realize that there is a difference between coding applications
>and demos. Demos are not supposed to last a lifetime. When you release new
Only problem is, application developers would also write broken code.
Unfortunately it can only be everyone or no one. That's the unfortunate
CRUX of the matter.
>chip sets, people just adjust after a while. It's not so critical as you
>seem to think. If you worry about getting the best possible hardware, let
>me worry about my programs working.
And CBM must also "worry" about their image. They don't need to be seen as
a crash prone machine with software that breaks too many rules.
>> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
>> Brian Jackson Amiga Networking Group, Commodore-Amiga Inc.
>> b...@cbmvax.commodore.com
>> {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!bj or network...@cbmvax.commodore.com
>> uva uvam vivendo varia fit
>
>| Stig A. Olsen | st...@ifi.uio.no | "Ja til EF" |
>| Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a baseball bat. |
-Joel
-------
========================================================================
/ Joel E. Swan....Pres./...Media Specialties, Ltd., Oak Forest, IL.USA /
/ & Senior Producer..../...Moody Broadcasting Network, Chicago, IL. USA /
/ Portal ID: joeles..../...joe...@cup.portal.com /
========================================================================
Path: sparky!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!news.qut.edu.au!qut.edu.au!podesta
From: pode...@qut.edu.au
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware
Message-ID: <1992Nov24.131420.59227@qut.edu.au>
Date: 24 Nov 92 13:14:20 EST
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.e <70081@cup.portal.com>
Organization: Queensland University of Technology
Lines: 19
In article <70...@cup.portal.com>, joe...@cup.portal.com (Joel Edward Swan) writes:
>>I think you missed my point earlier that a lot of people buy machines
>>because of the demos. This is something that is very unique for the Amiga.
>
> All I can say to this is BULL. I've been with the Amiga since 1985. I know
> 0 (that's zero) people who dished out between $500US and $3000Us to buy an
> Amiga for some demos. I DO know of dozens who have bought Amigas because
> they run software that either makes money for them or can entertain for more
> than 5 minutes.
>
BULL.
I know dozens of people here in Australia who bought the Amiga specifically
for the games AND DEMO scene. I know only one or two that have Amigas (a3000)
who bought it mainly for other purposes - mainly graphics and ray-tracing.
Even these people would be very unhappy if the games/demo scene died off.
James.
Path: sparky!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!joeles
From: joe...@cup.portal.com (Joel Edward Swan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware
Message-ID: <70281@cup.portal.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 00:16:25 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu><1992Nov13.221116.15921
@ariel.ec.usf.e <70081@cup.portal.com> <1992Nov24.131420.59227@qut.edu.au>
Lines: 46
>In article <70...@cup.portal.com>, joe...@cup.portal.com (Joel Edward Swan) wr
i
>tes:
>>>I think you missed my point earlier that a lot of people buy machines
>>>because of the demos. This is something that is very unique for the Amiga.
>>
>> All I can say to this is BULL. I've been with the Amiga since 1985. I know
>> 0 (that's zero) people who dished out between $500US and $3000Us to buy an
>> Amiga for some demos. I DO know of dozens who have bought Amigas because
^^^^^
>> they run software that either makes money for them or can entertain for more
>> than 5 minutes.
>>
>BULL.
>
>I know dozens of people here in Australia who bought the Amiga specifically
>for the games AND DEMO scene. I know only one or two that have Amigas (a3000)
^^^^^
Interesting how you put that "games" in there when I said "demos." Now, ask
how many of them will buy games that die if they try to add another floppy
drive, or some memory, or an accelerator, or..... Demos can come and go,
they are free. Once you start shelling out money, it's a different story.
The point is to keep any program from breaking - it's those programs that
get and keep customers. Did those "dozens" of people spend all that hard
earn money JUST to watch demos? No. They wanted to play games too. I'll
bet they also get interested in WPs, etc.
>who bought it mainly for other purposes - mainly graphics and ray-tracing.
>Even these people would be very unhappy if the games/demo scene died off.
>
>James.
>
As I would be unhappy. But, if I had to choose between the two I would not
pick the hardware hacking demos (this of course assumes that you can't write
a good demo without going to the hardware.)
Besides, the point is really moot. They won't be released - period.
-Joel
-------
========================================================================
/ Joel E. Swan....Pres./...Media Specialties, Ltd., Oak Forest, IL.USA /
/ & Senior Producer..../...Moody Broadcasting Network, Chicago, IL. USA /
/ Portal ID: joeles..../...joe...@cup.portal.com /
========================================================================
Path: sparky!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!news.qut.edu.au!qut.edu.au!podesta
From: pode...@qut.edu.au (Department of Computing Science, QUT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware
Message-ID: <1992Nov27.132607.59542@qut.edu.au>
Date: 27 Nov 92 13:26:07 EST
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.e <70281@cup.portal.com>
Organization: Queensland University of Technology
Lines: 57
In article <70...@cup.portal.com>, joe...@cup.portal.com (Joel Edward Swan) writes:
>>I know dozens of people here in Australia who bought the Amiga specifically
>>for the games AND DEMO scene. I know only one or two that have Amigas (a3000)
> ^^^^^
> Interesting how you put that "games" in there when I said "demos." Now, ask
> how many of them will buy games that die if they try to add another floppy
> drive, or some memory, or an accelerator, or..... Demos can come and go,
> they are free. Once you start shelling out money, it's a different story.
You can't write good action games without banging the hardware. So any
arguing about demos implicitly includes arguing about action games.
Don't try and tell me you can do fast action games through the OS coz you
can't as anybody who has written one will tell you.
There is no reason for a game to die when another floppy is added, or some
memory is added just because the hardware has been hit.
Most games buyers are not about to upgrade to an accelerator so they don't
care if the damn thing will work on a different machine. All that is
necessary is writing on the package that tells what machines the game
will run on. That's what all the IBlames have been doing successfully for
many years.
> The point is to keep any program from breaking - it's those programs that
> get and keep customers. Did those "dozens" of people spend all that hard
> earn money JUST to watch demos? No. They wanted to play games too. I'll
> bet they also get interested in WPs, etc.
Please stop bring Application programs into this argument. I still don't
see that they are relevant. No application programmer would hack the
hardware nowadays so its just wasting time talking about it.
Huge amounts of people buy the amiga coz the games are as good as the
consoles, but there are more and there are demos and application programs.
If the machine no-longer had brilliant games - which it won't without
banging the hardware - then these people wouldn't give a damn about
buying an amiga or a pc. Most end-users don't even know what a computer
really is and certainly aren't going to realise that the Amiga has a
far superior operating system to the competition.
>
> As I would be unhappy. But, if I had to choose between the two I would not
> pick the hardware hacking demos (this of course assumes that you can't write
> a good demo without going to the hardware.)
As I said above, by picking that your also picking the fast arcade action
games, so your in a minority group.
>
> Besides, the point is really moot. They won't be released - period.
>
> -Joel
There's no such thing as a certainty, though I'm inclined to agree with you.
Still, the argument raises some interesting issues from time to time.
I'm much more inclined to attempt some games using the OS than I was before
it started. However, it's a pity the arcade game scene has to die out.
James
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Path: sparky!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!bnrgate!bmerh85!bmerh85!hamish
From: Hamish.Macdon...@x400gate.bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald)
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware
In-Reply-To: podesta@qut.edu.au's message of 27 Nov 92 18:26:07 GMT
Message-ID: <1992Nov27.145120.19429@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
Lines: 19
Sender: n...@bmerh85.bnr.ca (Usenet News)
Organization: Bell Northern Research
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.e
<70281@cup.portal.com> <1992Nov27.132607.59542@qut.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 14:51:20 GMT
>>>>> On 27 Nov 92 18:26:07 GMT,
>>>>> In message <1992Nov27.132607.59...@qut.edu.au>,
>>>>> pode...@qut.edu.au (Department of Computing Science, QUT) wrote:
Department> You can't write good action games without banging the
Department> hardware. So any arguing about demos implicitly includes
Department> arguing about action games. Don't try and tell me you can
Department> do fast action games through the OS coz you can't as
Department> anybody who has written one will tell you.
You people still don't get it....
With AGA and an A1200 or A4000, how do *you* or these other "game
authors" (read twits) *KNOW* that it the OS isn't fast enough without
banging the hardware.
By all accounts, the OS IS fast enough.
We're not talking ECS here.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Path: sparky!uunet!think.com!ames!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!syma!joek
From: j...@cogs.sussex.ac.uk (Josef Karthauser)
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware
Message-ID: <1992Nov27.162256@cogs.sussex.ac.uk>
Sender: joek@cogs (Josef Karthauser)
Organization: University of Sussex
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.e <1992Nov27.145120.19429@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1992 16:22:56 GMT
Lines: 38
In article <1992Nov27.145120.19...@bmerh85.bnr.ca>,
Hamish.Macdon...@x400gate.bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald) writes:
|> >>>>> On 27 Nov 92 18:26:07 GMT,
|> >>>>> In message <1992Nov27.132607.59...@qut.edu.au>,
|> >>>>> pode...@qut.edu.au (Department of Computing Science, QUT) wrote:
|>
|> Department> You can't write good action games without banging the
|> Department> hardware. So any arguing about demos implicitly includes
|> Department> arguing about action games. Don't try and tell me you can
|> Department> do fast action games through the OS coz you can't as
|> Department> anybody who has written one will tell you.
|>
|> You people still don't get it....
|>
|> With AGA and an A1200 or A4000, how do *you* or these other "game
|> authors" (read twits) *KNOW* that it the OS isn't fast enough without
|> banging the hardware.
|>
|> By all accounts, the OS IS fast enough.
|>
|> We're not talking ECS here.
The point about writing games in Machine Code and "Banging the hardware" is that
the programmer has TOTAL control over the environment. There is a programming
phrase that you can't _trust_ any piece of code that wasn't written by you, and a
lot of "hackers" still subscribe to this idea. If a bug occurs you can guarantee
that it is in your code, but using the OS, which is totally unnecessary for a
SINGLE task, you can't prove that the bug is your fault. I've had really obscure
bugs which occured and weren't my fault at all!
I'm not saying that you can't or shouldn't write games that use the OS, but part
of the FUN of writing games in machine code is to see just how far you can push
the machine, try pushing the machine in C using OS calls.
Cheers,
Joe
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Path: sparky!uunet!usc!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!bnrgate!bmerh85!bmerh85!hamish
From: Hamish.Macdon...@x400gate.bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald)
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware
In-Reply-To: joek@cogs.sussex.ac.uk's message of Fri, 27 Nov 1992 16:22:56 GMT
Message-ID: <1992Nov27.183334.24465@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
Lines: 15
Sender: n...@bmerh85.bnr.ca (Usenet News)
Organization: Bell Northern Research
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.e
<1992Nov27.145120.19429@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
<1992Nov27.162256@cogs.sussex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 18:33:34 GMT
>>>>> On Fri, 27 Nov 1992 16:22:56 GMT,
>>>>> In message <1992Nov27.162...@cogs.sussex.ac.uk>,
>>>>> j...@cogs.sussex.ac.uk (Josef Karthauser) wrote:
Josef> I'm not saying that you can't or shouldn't write games that use
Josef> the OS, but part of the FUN of writing games in machine code is
Josef> to see just how far you can push the machine, try pushing the
Josef> machine in C using OS calls.
So fine, do it, just do two things:
1) Don't expect C= to tell you how to use the hardware without the OS.
2) Make sure that people who get this game *know* that it is likely to
break on new machines.
Path: sparky!uunet!psinntp!tfd!afp!gna!amipb.gna.org!amipb
From: am...@amipb.gna.org (Philippe Berard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware
Message-ID: <amipb.04t9@amipb.gna.org>
Date: 9 Dec 92 08:36:05 GMT
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.e <1992Nov27.183334.24465@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
Organization: IWANIMA
Lines: 37
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
In article <1992Nov27.183334.24...@bmerh85.bnr.ca> Hamish.Macdon...@x400gate.bnr.ca
(Hamish Macdonald) writes:
> >>>>> On Fri, 27 Nov 1992 16:22:56 GMT,
> >>>>> In message <1992Nov27.162...@cogs.sussex.ac.uk>,
> >>>>> j...@cogs.sussex.ac.uk (Josef Karthauser) wrote:
>
> Josef> I'm not saying that you can't or shouldn't write games that use
> Josef> the OS, but part of the FUN of writing games in machine code is
> Josef> to see just how far you can push the machine, try pushing the
> Josef> machine in C using OS calls.
>
> So fine, do it, just do two things:
>
> 1) Don't expect C= to tell you how to use the hardware without the OS.
This is the MISTAKE of the year (but it's in CBM's habitudes).
> 2) Make sure that people who get this game *know* that it is likely to
> break on new machines.
OK. Now how much would these new machines cost. So we will be
developping games that will be fast on high-end stations but not
on low-cost, game machines like the 1200 ? I'm thinking guys saying
this kind of sentence are like the 'men in grey' shown in Brazil.
Did you ever played a game, Hamish ? You should know that a good
programmer always have a favourite game, and mine is Gravity Force,
but I can't see how to program it in C or Assembly, with OS calls,
and speed in mind. That's I M P O S S I B L E on the 1200, but maybe
on the 4000, and it's not a game machine.
Sincerely,
-- Philippe
.----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Philippe Berard (French Amiga User) | |
| "They hold a cup of wisdom, | UseNet : am...@amipb.gna.org |
| But there is nothing within" (Kate Bush). | |
`----------------------------------------------------------------------------'
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!
bnrgate!bmerh85!bmerh85!hamish
From: Hamish.Macdon...@x400gate.bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald)
Subject: Re: Attn Commodore: You are making a Big Mistake (Hardware
In-Reply-To: amipb@amipb.gna.org's message of 9 Dec 92 08:36:05 GMT
Message-ID: <1992Dec11.163722.1397@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
Lines: 23
Sender: n...@bmerh85.bnr.ca (Usenet News)
Organization: Bell Northern Research
References: <1992Nov12.000037.27562@wuecl.wustl.edu>
<1992Nov13.221116.15921@ariel.ec.usf.e
<1992Nov27.183334.24465@bmerh85.bnr.ca> <amipb.04t9@amipb.gna.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 16:37:22 GMT
>>>>> On 9 Dec 92 08:36:05 GMT,
>>>>> In message <amipb.0...@amipb.gna.org>,
>>>>> am...@amipb.gna.org (Philippe Berard) wrote:
[... gripe about the need to go to the hardware for games ...]
Philippe> Did you ever played a game, Hamish ?
Used to...
I can't play many games any more.... MOST OF THEM *WON'T* WORK ON MY
A3000!
Why? Because the writers haven't figured out how to make their
programs work on all Amigas!
Philippe> You should know that a good programmer always have a
Philippe> favourite game, and mine is Gravity Force, but I can't see
Philippe> how to program it in C or Assembly, with OS calls, and speed
Philippe> in mind. That's I M P O S S I B L E on the 1200, but maybe
Philippe> on the 4000, and it's not a game machine.
Just because you can't see how to do it doesn't make it impossible.