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From: barr...@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: A1200 and Mac Quadra 605 Comparison
Message-ID: <CIxu4F.261@news.iastate.edu>
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Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 1994 06:31:26 GMT
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A friend recently got a Mac Quadra 605 system new for $900 including the
keyboard. I thought I'd put together a comparison of this system with the
A1200, the closest system from Commodore.
A1200 Mac Quadra 605
CPU: 14Mhz 68EC020 25Mhz 68LC040
HD Interface: IDE SCSI
External HD Port? NO YES
Hard Drive: None 80M
RAM: 2M 4M
Expandable To (on MB): 2M 32M
Max Non-laced Res. 640x480 800x600
Can a VGA/SVGA Monitor
be used with all SW? NO YES
8-bit stereo audio
digitizing? NO YES
Price: $300 $900
In terms of price/performance, there is no question that the Q605 blows
the A1200 away, especially when you compare prices of complete systems.
For instance, because a good monitor for an A1200 costs about $200 more than a
good monitor for a Q605, the price difference narrows that much further from
the prices above when you look at prices for PRACTICAL systems. By time you
have added 2M of fast RAM, a 25Mhz 68030, a hard drive, and a monitor that
can be used with all software to an A1200, you are already MORE EXPENSIVE than
the superior 68LC040-based Q605!
+++++++
++++ Marc Barrett -MB-
++ IRC nick: Cyclone | e-mail: barr...@iastate.edu
+ Amiga: No excellence, just bullshit
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From: Mike_Nor...@p14.anet.bbs.bad.se (Mike Noreen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A1200 and Mac Quadra 605 Comparison
Message-ID: <OA92-901-231p14_2d26f8a0@piraya.bad.se>
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 94 10:44:43 +0200
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In the message * A1200 and Mac Quadra 605 Comparison * Marc wrote:
Hi Marc. Welcome back. It's been dull without you around. You're by
far my favourite jester. This newsgroup wouldn't be the same without
you; CSAA without you would be like the Dark Ages without the Bubonic
Plague. Keep up the good work!
MNB> A1200 Mac Quadra 605
May I ask what criteria was used to determine these two 'comparable'
systems? The Q605 costs three times more than the A1200, and they don't
have the same processors...
Then it's painfully obvious that you've chosen the comparisons in order
to make the Quadra look good. I thought you were better than that. I mean,
MNB> Non-laced Res. 640x480 800x600
It's obvious you chose that comparison because you knew that the A1200
can do 1280x512 + overscan, and in 24-bit colour - but interlaced.
I believe your Quadrais maxed out at 800x600 if run on a 14" monitor,
am I right? Also, I believe your quadra has a lot less colours than the
A1200, no? So, actually, the Quadra doesn't win that comparison, does it?
MNB> Can a VGA/SVGA Monitor
MNB> be used with all SW? NO YES
Ah, yes, your coveted 'SVGA-Compatibility'. It was wise of you
to use the word 'all', since most auto-booting games on the Amiga run at
15khz (a mode not existant on your Quadra!), and hence cannot be run on
VGA (31khz) monitors without extra hardware. As I'm sure you're aware,
most, if not all, apps would work just fine with any VGA/SVGA monitor.
So the quadra won that comparison because you used the word 'all', but
only because the A1200 is a more advanced - and complex - computer.
Here's another cute one:
MNB> Interface: IDE SCSI External
You do offcourse realize that this forces the owner of the Quadra to buy
expensive external stuff? Or an external box?
MNB> HD Port? NO YES
Excuse me? What does this mean? Isn't that the exact same comparison you
made two lines higher up? Isn't this then redundant?
MNB> 8-bit stereo audio
MNB> digitizing? NO YES
I assume you've heard the quality of samples produced by the inbuilt mic?
I have. It's poor, to say the least. Also, it is a real useful feature;
instead of having the Mac say 'BEEP' at you everytime you do something it
doesn't think you should, it may now give you a two minute rendition of
'Mary had a little lamb', and while it does, the computer is locked. Yes,
locked. This isn't a multitasking computer, remember?
MNB> In terms of price/performance, there is no question that the Q605
MNB> blows the A1200 away, especially when you compare prices of complete
MNB> systems. For instance, because a good monitor for an A1200 costs about
MNB> $200 more than a good monitor for a Q605, the price difference narrows
MNB> that much further from the prices above when you look at prices for
MNB> PRACTICAL systems. By time you have added 2M of fast RAM, a 25Mhz
MNB> 68030, a hard drive, and a monitor that can be used with all software
MNB> to an A1200, you are already MORE EXPENSIVE than the superior
MNB> 68LC040-based Q605!
This is interesting. A good monitor, is, I suppose, a multisync? It didn't
occur to you that it is more expensive because it does something a plain VGA
does not? You COULD use a TV, also. You know, like the one you allready
have?
And, again, I kindof wonder how you decided that these computers were
comparable.
Now, lets continue this comparison, shall we?
Ability to hook up to TV set: YES NO
Ability to change screenmode
independent of monitor: YES NO
Price of software: LOW VERY HIGH
Internal expansion port
which permits CPU, memory,
and clock upgrades: YES NO
Inbuilt hardware gfx
compression: YES NO
Double speed, CD^32 and
photoCD compatible CD-ROM: PLANNED NOT POSSIBLE
FMV: PLANNED NO
Availability of PD software: VERY GOOD POOR
Preemptive multitasking: YES NO
Stability of OS: GOOD POOR
Expandibility: VERY GOOD VERY POOR
Maximum number of colours
in all screenmodes: >256,000 256 (64,000 option)
Mac/PC hardware emulator: PLANNED NO
PRICE: $300 $900
From THIS comparison it is obvious that the A1200 is a better buy. Why,
you even HAVE TO BUY A MONITOR to be able to use the Quadra!!! Shocking!
And the Quadra costs *THREE* *TIMES* *MORE* and doesn't even have hardware
gfx compression! THAT SUXX!
Do you get the point, MB? Or do you want to continue pointless comparisons
like the ones you and me have just been through?
MNB> ++++ Marc Barrett -MB-
PS: Marc, don't you think it's strange that you have to go out of your
way to find comparisons in which a Quadra (which costs THREE TIMES MORE)
wins over a lowly A1200? Think about it.
MVH: Mike Noreen InterNet: radh...@p14.anet.bbs.bad.se
FidoNet: 2:201/411.14
--- Spot 1.2b Unreg.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
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From: barr...@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: A1200 and Mac Quadra 605 Comparison
Message-ID: <CJ3AB6.Ip7@news.iastate.edu>
Sender: n...@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
References: <CIxu4F.261@news.iastate.edu> <OA92-901-231p14_2d26f8a0@piraya.bad.se>
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 05:09:06 GMT
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In article <OA92-901-231p14_2d26f...@piraya.bad.se> Mike_Nor...@p14.anet.bbs.bad.se
(Mike Noreen) writes:
>In the message * A1200 and Mac Quadra 605 Comparison * Marc wrote:
>
>Hi Marc. Welcome back. It's been dull without you around. You're by
>far my favourite jester. This newsgroup wouldn't be the same without
>you; CSAA without you would be like the Dark Ages without the Bubonic
>Plague. Keep up the good work!
>
> MNB> A1200 Mac Quadra 605
>
>May I ask what criteria was used to determine these two 'comparable'
>systems? The Q605 costs three times more than the A1200, and they don't
>have the same processors...
>
>Then it's painfully obvious that you've chosen the comparisons in order
>to make the Quadra look good. I thought you were better than that. I mean,
>
> MNB> Non-laced Res. 640x480 800x600
>
>It's obvious you chose that comparison because you knew that the A1200
>can do 1280x512 + overscan, and in 24-bit colour - but interlaced.
>I believe your Quadrais maxed out at 800x600 if run on a 14" monitor,
>am I right?
Apparently not. It seems that I was wrong about the top non-laced
resolution of the Q605. Several people have informed me that it is
1024x768.
> Also, I believe your quadra has a lot less colours than the
>A1200, no?
Same color palette. BTW, the A1200 can't display any more colors than
the Q605 unless HAM is used, and HAM is VERY processor-intensive and a
nightmare to use as a general-purpose mode. Further, the Workbench can't
use HAM, so you are limited to 256 colors for any apps that use the
Workbench, the same number of colors that you get with a Q605.
> So, actually, the Quadra doesn't win that comparison, does it?
It loses, a little. The thing is that the Q605 is designed to have a
GUI in all applications. HAM is a terrible mode to use with any sort of
GUI.
> MNB> Can a VGA/SVGA Monitor
> MNB> be used with all SW? NO YES
>
>Ah, yes, your coveted 'SVGA-Compatibility'. It was wise of you
>to use the word 'all', since most auto-booting games on the Amiga run at
>15khz (a mode not existant on your Quadra!)
This is also not true, apparently. At least two people have stated that
the Q605 CAN produce 15Khz NTSC/PAL/SECAM video outputs. So you CAN run
MS Word or PhotoShop on a 1084S and get all the flicker that your heart
desires. Myself, I wish all 15Khz modes would go away forever.
>, and hence cannot be run on
>VGA (31khz) monitors without extra hardware. As I'm sure you're aware,
>most, if not all, apps would work just fine with any VGA/SVGA monitor.
>So the quadra won that comparison because you used the word 'all', but
>only because the A1200 is a more advanced - and complex - computer.
The A1200 sucks. It can't even manage half of the top non-laced
resolution that a Q605 can manage, and manages it with EXTREME slowness.
>Here's another cute one:
>
> MNB> Interface: IDE SCSI External
>
>You do offcourse realize that this forces the owner of the Quadra to buy
>expensive external stuff? Or an external box?
At least you have that option. You can't connect any SCSI peripherals
externally at all on an A1200, since it doesn't have an external SCSI port.
Or an internal SCSI port for that matter. So you are saying that losing
all options in this area is a BENEFIT?
> MNB> External HD Port? NO YES
>
>Excuse me? What does this mean? Isn't that the exact same comparison you
>made two lines higher up? Isn't this then redundant?
Maybe I goofed with my message. I just corrected it. The A1200 gives
you an internal HD port, but no external HD connectors. So you are forced
to use a hard drive internally or not at all. The Q605 gives you the option
of using a hard drive externally if it won't fit inside the case.
Here's one I should have included:
A1200 Q605
Size of HD Bay: 2.5" 3.5"
> MNB> 8-bit stereo audio
> MNB> digitizing? NO YES
>
>I assume you've heard the quality of samples produced by the inbuilt mic?
>I have. It's poor, to say the least.
Bullshit. The Q605 doesn't use those cheap crystal microphones that the LCs
used. The Q605 uses a very-low-impedence line-level input. Apple sells a
very high-quality "SmoothTalk" microphone for Macs (like the Q605) that use
line-level audio inputs.
> Also, it is a real useful feature;
>instead of having the Mac say 'BEEP' at you everytime you do something it
>doesn't think you should, it may now give you a two minute rendition of
>'Mary had a little lamb', and while it does, the computer is locked. Yes,
>locked. This isn't a multitasking computer, remember?
Turn it off. You can use the control panel, can't you?
> MNB> In terms of price/performance, there is no question that the Q605
> MNB> blows the A1200 away, especially when you compare prices of complete
> MNB> systems. For instance, because a good monitor for an A1200 costs about
> MNB> $200 more than a good monitor for a Q605, the price difference narrows
> MNB> that much further from the prices above when you look at prices for
> MNB> PRACTICAL systems. By time you have added 2M of fast RAM, a 25Mhz
> MNB> 68030, a hard drive, and a monitor that can be used with all software
> MNB> to an A1200, you are already MORE EXPENSIVE than the superior
> MNB> 68LC040-based Q605!
>
>This is interesting. A good monitor, is, I suppose, a multisync? It didn't
>occur to you that it is more expensive because it does something a plain VGA
>does not? You COULD use a TV, also. You know, like the one you allready
>have?
What if I want a diplay that I can look at for more than 10 minutes a day
without needing to get a new glasses precription every week?
The Q604 wins clearly here. To get a monitor that can give you both a
quality display and still be able to run all software on that monitor, you
*MUST* get a multisync monitor that can sync all the way down to 15Khz.
You simply have no choice in the matter. With a Q605, you can opt for a
$200 SVGA monitor with no sacrifices in compatibility.
>And, again, I kindof wonder how you decided that these computers were
>comparable.
They are both low-end machines. And roughly the same price, if you look
at prices for practical systems. By "practical" systems, I mean systems
with a good monitor (one that can give you a QUALITY display), 4M of RAM
(believe me, the A1200 needs it. It chugs along at about 1/10th the speed
of a Q605 with no fast RAM), an 80M hard drive, and (in the case of the Q605)
a keyboard. Such a system will cost you about $1150 in the case of the Q605,
and about $1000 in the case of the A1200. And the A1200 still lacks many
things, incuding a high-density floppy drives, a detached keyboard, a fast
CPU, good non-laced resoutions, sound input, an internal 3.5" HD bay, etc..
>Now, lets continue this comparison, shall we?
>
>
>Ability to hook up to TV set: YES YES
>
>Ability to change screenmode
>independent of monitor: YES YES
>
>Price of software: LOW VERY HIGH
>
>Quality of software: VERY LOW VERY HIGH
>
>Amount of software: VERY LOW VERY HIGH
>
>Internal expansion port
>which permits CPU, memory,
>and clock upgrades: YES YES
>
>Inbuilt hardware gfx
>compression: YES NO
>
>Double speed, CD^32 and
>photoCD compatible CD-ROM: PLANNED NOT POSSIBLE
>
>CD-ROM Softeware Available? NO YES
>
>FMV: PLANNED ??
>
>Availability of PD software: VERY GOOD VERY GOOD
Check the index.txt file on archive.umich.edu in /mac/00help. It is
1.2M in size. By comparison, the complete index+descriptions for the Fish
disks is 1M in size, and includes mostly duplicative entries (many many
files are in there 10 or more times each. DiskSalv, for instance).
>Preemptive multitasking: YES NO
>
>Stability of OS: GOOD GREAT
>
>Expandibility: VERY GOOD VERY GOOD
>
>Maximum number of colours
>in all screenmodes: >256,000 256 (64,000 option)
>Maximum # of colors
without HAM: 256 256
>Mac/PC hardware emulator: PLANNED YES
Apple has a system that runs both Mac and PC software. I don't like it,
but it does exist.
>System Price: $1000 $1150
>
>
>From THIS comparison it is obvious that the A1200 is a better buy. Why,
>you even HAVE TO BUY A MONITOR to be able to use the Quadra!!! Shocking!
>And the Quadra costs *THREE* *TIMES* *MORE* and doesn't even have hardware
>gfx compression! THAT SUXX!
>
>Do you get the point, MB? Or do you want to continue pointless comparisons
>like the ones you and me have just been through?
>
> MNB> ++++ Marc Barrett -MB-
>
>PS: Marc, don't you think it's strange that you have to go out of your
>way to find comparisons in which a Quadra (which costs THREE TIMES MORE)
>wins over a lowly A1200? Think about it.
Don't you think it is strange that, in order to beat the Q605 in price,
you have to do it with a system that has no fast RAM, no HD, no SCSI
interface, no HD floppy, no detached keyboard, no internal memory
expandability, no clock, no monitor, and no audio input? How *PRACTICAL*
is a system like that?
+++++++
++++ Marc Barrett -MB-
++ IRC nick: Cyclone | e-mail: barr...@iastate.edu
+ Amiga: No excellence, just bullshit
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From: tr...@shasti.xei.com (Kenneth Jamieson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A1200 and Mac Quadra 605 Comparison
Date: 5 Jan 1994 23:10:55 -0000
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises, Inc.
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Message-ID: <2gfhdv$lmu@shasti.xei.com>
References: <CIxu4F.261@news.iastate.edu> <OA92-901-231p14_2d26f8a0@piraya.bad.se>
<CJ3AB6.Ip7@news.iastate.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.jvnc.net
In article <CJ3AB6....@news.iastate.edu>,
Marc N. Barrett <barr...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>In article <OA92-901-231p14_2d26f...@piraya.bad.se> Mike_Nor...@p14.anet.bbs.bad.se
(Mike Noreen) writes:
>>Inbuilt hardware gfx
>>compression: YES NO
You don't mean HAM do you? I mean, it's a neat hack and all but
"inbuild hardware gfx compression" is a pretty grandious term for
"extremely limited heavily artifacted non general purpose mode".
>>Double speed, CD^32 and
>>photoCD compatible CD-ROM: PLANNED NOT POSSIBLE
I assume the CD^32 is the thing here right? I mean, the SCSI port
give you 2x, 3x (and in the case of the Pioneer 604X minichanger) 4x CD and
photo-cd.
--
Too tired to think of a funny .signature.
Kenneth Jamieson
tr...@shasti.xei.com / tr...@xei.jvnc.net / tr...@wisdom.bubble.org
Via Linux ALPHA 0.99 PL14l - Thanks Linus!
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From: gj...@pitt.edu (Josh Karabin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A1200 and Mac Quadra 605 Comparison
Message-ID: <11284@blue.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: 6 Jan 94 21:51:50 GMT
References: <CIxu4F.261@news.iastate.edu> <OA92-901-231p14_2d26f8a0@piraya.bad.se>
<CJ3AB6.Ip7@news.iastate.edu> <2gfhdv$lmu@shasti.xei.com>
Sender: ne...@pitt.edu
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Kenneth Jamieson writes:
: In article <CJ3AB6....@news.iastate.edu>,
: Marc N. Barrett <barr...@iastate.edu> wrote:
: >In article <OA92-901-231p14_2d26f...@piraya.bad.se> Mike_Nor...@p14.anet.bbs.bad.se
|(Mike Noreen) writes:
: >>Inbuilt hardware gfx
: >>compression: YES NO
: You don't mean HAM do you? I mean, it's a neat hack and all but
: "inbuild hardware gfx compression" is a pretty grandious term for
: "extremely limited heavily artifacted non general purpose mode".
No, he means HAM8. It's the updated version of HAM, which gives you 2 more
color bits over HAM6, quadrupling the number of base colors accessible by the
mode, cutting down the jaggies and the artifacts. Also, the base colors can be
tweeked by the new 24bit pallette of the AGA amigas, rather than the older ECS
12 bit pallette. (As I understand it, the old HAM can use the extended pallete,
for what it's worth) Then you have the fact that the AGA HAM/HAM8 modes are not
limited to any particular resolutions, so you can pick a suitable horizontal
resolution to help you remove even more artifacts.
Yep, sounds like compression to me. 24 bits in. 8 bits out. Looks really good.
Works alot faster than decoding an MPEG image. The tradeoff being, of course,
size.
--
------------------------------------- -------------------
:"I see the light : : Josh Karabin :
: at the end of the tunnel now. : :DLH Lab Consulant:
: Someone please tell me :------------------------------------
: It's not a train." : from "I see the light" by Cracker.:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: tr...@shasti.xei.com (Kenneth Jamieson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A1200 and Mac Quadra 605 Comparison
Date: 8 Jan 1994 13:46:50 -0000
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises, Inc.
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <2gmdga$g8@shasti.xei.com>
References: <CIxu4F.261@news.iastate.edu> <CJ3AB6.Ip7@news.iastate.edu>
<2gfhdv$lmu@shasti.xei.com> <11284@blue.cis.pitt.edu>
In article <11...@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, Josh Karabin <gj...@pitt.edu> wrote:
>Kenneth Jamieson writes:
>: You don't mean HAM do you? I mean, it's a neat hack and all but
>
[Speaking about HAM8]
>
>Yep, sounds like compression to me. 24 bits in. 8 bits out. Looks really good.
>Works alot faster than decoding an MPEG image. The tradeoff being, of course,
>size.
>
Ok - then to qualify as "hardware Graohics compression" in the way you
are useing the phrase then it has to be transparent to the programmer at 24
bits.
In other words, I need a software interface wherein I specify a 24 bit
value to the hardware for each pixel and the hardware chooses ITSELF whether
to use a HAM style pixel or use another base color.
If this is not done in hardware then you are just talking about
another < 24 bit video mode in a world full of them. And it is no more a
hardware graphics compression (the way you are saying it) than any of them.
>
>--
>------------------------------------- -------------------
>:"I see the light : : Josh Karabin :
>: at the end of the tunnel now. : :DLH Lab Consulant:
>: Someone please tell me :------------------------------------
>: It's not a train." : from "I see the light" by Cracker.:
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Too tired to think of a funny .signature.
Kenneth Jamieson
tr...@shasti.xei.com / tr...@xei.jvnc.net / tr...@wisdom.bubble.org
Via Linux ALPHA 0.99 PL14l - Thanks Linus!
Path: gmd.de!xlink.net!zib-berlin.de!uniol!caty!cbmger!peterk
From: pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Peter Kittel Germany)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A1200 and Mac Quadra 605 Comparison
Message-ID: <14437@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com>
Date: 11 Jan 94 17:26:02 GMT
References: <CIxu4F.261@news.iastate.edu> <CJ3AB6.Ip7@news.iastate.edu>
<2gfhdv$lmu@shasti.xei.com> <11284@blue.cis.pitt.edu> <2gmdga$g8@shasti.xei.com>
Reply-To: pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Peter Kittel Germany)
Organization: Commodore Germany
Lines: 40
In article <2gmdga...@shasti.xei.com> tr...@shasti.xei.com (Kenneth Jamieson) writes:
>>Kenneth Jamieson writes:
>>: You don't mean HAM do you? I mean, it's a neat hack and all but
>>
>>Yep, sounds like compression to me. 24 bits in. 8 bits out. Looks really good.
>>Works alot faster than decoding an MPEG image. The tradeoff being, of course,
>>size.
>
> Ok - then to qualify as "hardware Graohics compression" in the way you
>are useing the phrase then it has to be transparent to the programmer at 24
>bits.
No. You have to differentiate between displaying and generating. There are
many compressing schemes, where the compression is done in software and the
decoding and displaying in hardware.
> In other words, I need a software interface wherein I specify a 24 bit
>value to the hardware for each pixel and the hardware chooses ITSELF whether
>to use a HAM style pixel or use another base color.
No, you don't need this for a definition. This is only your definition,
that's probably shared by only very few people.
> If this is not done in hardware then you are just talking about
>another < 24 bit video mode in a world full of them. And it is no more a
>hardware graphics compression (the way you are saying it) than any of them.
We're talking about a mode and a compression method where the *decoding*
is done in hardware. This brings you the advantage of low memory needs
and following this major speed advantages when loading such images (*no*
CPU interaction needed, just DMA!, ok you can even compress HAM data more
with IFF run-length algorithm, but that's an additional method that has
nothing to do with HAM in principal, it's the same as for "normal" CLUT
modes), so that you can easily animate them for example. That you need
skilled software and longer time to generate such data, is admitted, but
also doesn't hurt the definition.
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com!