Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!tektronix!ogcvax!omsvax!icalqa!hplabs!sri-unix! warbob.rice@Rand-Relay From: warbob.rice%Rand-Re...@sri-unix.UUCP Newsgroups: net.graphics Subject: Blit solution to windows Message-ID: <4266@sri-arpa.UUCP> Date: Sat, 13-Aug-83 12:33:39 EDT Article-I.D.: sri-arpa.4266 Posted: Sat Aug 13 12:33:39 1983 Date-Received: Fri, 19-Aug-83 12:48:07 EDT Lines: 11 From: Bob.Warfield <warbob.rice@Rand-Relay> The Blit is *NOT* an appropriate solution to the problem of providing windows for Unix. It is *HARDWARE* limited in the number of windows it supports. The versions I've heard about actually use a separate RS232 line for each window. Furthermore, there is no icon support. I realize everybody doesn't like icons, but I do, and I think each user should be given the choice. This is easy to do, since most icons can be replaced by a box containing text ala VisiOn. Bob Warfield
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!seismo!hao!hplabs!sri-unix!cbosgd!djb@Berkeley From: djb@Berke...@cbosgd.UUCP Newsgroups: net.graphics Subject: Re: Blit solution to windows Message-ID: <4316@sri-arpa.UUCP> Date: Wed, 17-Aug-83 11:19:28 EDT Article-I.D.: sri-arpa.4316 Posted: Wed Aug 17 11:19:28 1983 Date-Received: Sun, 21-Aug-83 03:29:18 EDT Lines: 21 From: cbosgd!djb@Berkeley (David J. Bryant) I don't know where Bob Warfield (warbob%rice.Rice@Rand-Relay) got his information, but it is very, very wrong. The blit (and when I say blit I also mean the Teletype 5620) is not hardware limited in the number of windows that can be supported. It does not, and never has used a separate RS232 line for each window. The multiplexing is done over a single RS232 port by special programs that run in the terminal and the host. You can run as many windows as you want, and over a single terminal-host RS232 connection, although having way too many is not a good idea (you can exhaust the memory available for window management, but it takes lots of overlapped window area to do this). Further, there most certainly is icon support. You can design your own icons as bitmaps, and manipulate them all over the screen. Quite a lot of the blit programs (cip, for example, and anything that uses the mouse) make good use of icons for a wide variety of applications. It's very easy to do. David Bryant Bell Labs Columbus, OH (614) 860-4516 (cbosg!djb)
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!seismo!hao!hplabs!sri-unix!FISC...@RUTGERS.ARPA From: FISC...@RUTGERS.ARPA@sri-unix.UUCP Newsgroups: net.graphics Subject: Re: Blit solution to windows, the "window solution" in general Message-ID: <4315@sri-arpa.UUCP> Date: Wed, 17-Aug-83 14:50:10 EDT Article-I.D.: sri-arpa.4315 Posted: Wed Aug 17 14:50:10 1983 Date-Received: Sun, 21-Aug-83 03:28:28 EDT Lines: 16 From: Ron <FISC...@RUTGERS.ARPA> I just recently (last week) saw a BLIT running multiple windows through a multiplexed serial line (at 19.2k baud). It was connected to a VAX 780 thing. This was at a demo at the labs that was arranged for some folks from Rutgers interested in High-level debugging. I think the whole idea of windows isn't very well used nowadays. What we wind up with are literally piles of windows on screen with little organization to them. Worse, each one tends to be a scrolling ASR33 simulator. (ron) -------
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site whuxlb.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!whuxlb!bjb From: b...@whuxlb.UUCP Newsgroups: net.graphics Subject: Re: Blit solution to windows - (nf) Message-ID: <1281@whuxlb.UUCP> Date: Fri, 19-Aug-83 20:56:37 EDT Article-I.D.: whuxlb.1281 Posted: Fri Aug 19 20:56:37 1983 Date-Received: Sat, 20-Aug-83 09:18:10 EDT Sender: b...@whuxlb.UUCP Organization: Bell Labs, Whippany Lines: 44 #R:sri-arpa:-426600:whuxlb:20600001:000:1679 whuxlb!bjb Aug 19 20:56:00 1983 I am not involved in "5620" (the product that sprung from the blit) development, but I do have a blit and feel that the previous article was rather a large bit of mis-information. The Blit is *NOT* an appropriate solution to the problem of providing windows for Unix. It is *HARDWARE* limited in the number of windows it supports. The blit is NOT hardware limited to the number of windows (7) that it supports. The blit driver, internal software and packet format limit the number of windows. I have been told by a "very reliable" source that this problem is easily resolved by using some unused bits in the packet. The versions I've heard about actually use a separate RS232 line for each window. Not only untrue, but silly. I wonder if the author of the original article is really talking about a blit at all. The blit has one serial port ONLY! It has no other i/o other then the keyboard. The 5620 will have two serial and one parallel port. Furthermore, there is no icon support. I realize everybody doesn't like icons, but I do, and I think each user should be given the choice. This is easy to do, since most icons can be replaced by a box containing text ala VisiOn. Again completely false. The blit has very good icon support. Programs running in the blit can easily load or change icons. Extensive use of icons is made by the programs that come with the blit. The blit (I am not sure about the 5620) even has a icon editor. The 5620 dot-mapped-display terminal was shown at usenix. Each of the assertions made by the author of the previous article would be obviously and patently untrue to anyone who saw it there. B. Beare ...!whuxlb!bjb
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site alice.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!eagle!alice!rob From: r...@alice.UUCP Newsgroups: net.graphics Subject: from the horse's keyboard Message-ID: <2134@alice.UUCP> Date: Mon, 22-Aug-83 21:32:15 EDT Article-I.D.: alice.2134 Posted: Mon Aug 22 21:32:15 1983 Date-Received: Tue, 23-Aug-83 15:28:22 EDT Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill Lines: 29 enough people jumped in to correct the error's in wake's article that i will only mention that the corrections are correct. fischer's complaint about windows being badly utilized is more serious. if what you stack up are asr33 windows, what you get is stacks of asr33 windows. if the blit is what he is complaining about, and that is implied by his message, i counter that there is much more going on than that. the default window program is a little scrolling terminal, but it is often replaced by programs that make much better use of the facilities available, especially the graphics. we have windows that edit files, debug programs, monitor system performance, edit icons and, of course, play games. the asr33 windows are themselves stopgaps. my personal version of the software runs by default a window that lets you edit the text on the screen, scroll around in it, and copy it to and from unix and the other windows. nothing at all like an asr33 (or a concept 100, for that matter). but i think fischer is complaining that the windows aren't interrelated in some deep way as they are in, say, smalltalk. i argue that the blit's success comes largely from the independence of the windows, which capitalizes on the multiprogramming capabilities of unix. there are plenty of examples of this in action, at least one of which he admits to having seen: debugging when the debugger and the subject process are decoupled is a whole new experience. so, the windows are quite well used, thank you, although they might not be used the way fischer expects.
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site tty3b.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!gummo!whuxlb!pyuxll!eisx!npoiv!npois!hogpc!houxm! ihnp4!we13!otuxa!tty3b!mjk From: m...@tty3b.UUCP Newsgroups: net.graphics Subject: Re: from the horse's keyboard Message-ID: <188@tty3b.UUCP> Date: Tue, 23-Aug-83 15:38:09 EDT Article-I.D.: tty3b.188 Posted: Tue Aug 23 15:38:09 1983 Date-Received: Wed, 24-Aug-83 10:31:02 EDT References: <2134@alice.UUCP> Organization: Teletype Corp., Skokie, Ill Lines: 28 If Rob Pike is the horse, I don't know what we are here at Teletype. I won't speculate, either. Since there is some confusion over what applies to the blit and what to the 5620, maybe this note will help clear that up. The 5620 is a redesign of the Blit, incorporating many of Rob's (and others) ideas. It uses a 32-bit micro (the BELLMAC-32 [trademark of Western Electric]) and come with 256K bytes RAM, 64K bytes ROM standard. The memory is planned to be expandable to 1 MB RAM, 256K ROM. The 5620 software is pretty much a straight "clean up and port" of some of the Blit software. Because of the limited bandwidth of the porters (and the seemingly limitless bandwidth of Blit software developers), I have to say "some"; in the first release (this November), not all Blit software will be available for the 5620. Suffice to say that the most important pieces (Tek 4014 emulation, multiple windows, jim text editor, cross-compiler and debugger) will be. Some others (font editor, fancier terminal program) may be. But don't worry that the rest of the Blit software won't be forthcoming; it will be. All Rob's other comments about usefulness of windows on the Blit apply equally to the 5620. The ability to have a program assume control of a window is a very powerful feature. It means, as Rob indicated, that you can do terminal emulation. It means you can design a custom terminal personality and load it into a window. Imagine a terminal designed to run vi (if that's your favorite editor); if you can write a program to implement that terminal, you can convert windows on your 5620 into that "vi terminal". Mike Kelly Teletype Corp. R&D ..!ihnp4!tty3b!mjk