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Path: utzoo!utcs!lsuc!dave
From: d...@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman)
Newsgroups: net.bugs.uucp
Subject: System V introduces yet another inconsistency
Message-ID: <454@lsuc.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 28-Feb-85 12:12:34 EST
Article-I.D.: lsuc.454
Posted: Thu Feb 28 12:12:34 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 28-Feb-85 13:51:39 EST
Organization: Law Society of Upper Canada, Toronto
Lines: 20

Since time immemorial (well, a few years anyway), the public
directory for shipping files to a remote system (normally
/usr/spool/uucppublic) has been user "uucp"'s home directory.
In other words,    uucp file site!~uucp/file     works.

I tried this the other day with a site we talk to which is
trying to follow the System V "standard". Lo and behold, the
System V standard has "uucp" as a normal user whose home
directory is /usr/lib/uucp, and the uucico login is "nuucp".

Great. Why couldn't they leave well enough alone? Now, before
I transfer anything to/from a remote site's public directory,
I have to find out whether it's ~uucp or ~nuucp. (Or else
use /usr/spool/uucppublic and hope they haven't chosen to put
the public directory elsewhere.)

Dave Sherman
-- 
{utzoo pesnta nrcaero utcs hcr}!lsuc!dave
{allegra decvax ihnp4 linus}!utcsri!lsuc!dave

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Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site eagle.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!eagle!mjs
From: m...@eagle.UUCP (M.J.Shannon)
Newsgroups: net.bugs.uucp
Subject: Re: System V introduces yet another inconsistency
Message-ID: <1242@eagle.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 28-Feb-85 21:34:35 EST
Article-I.D.: eagle.1242
Posted: Thu Feb 28 21:34:35 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 1-Mar-85 09:44:53 EST
References: <454@lsuc.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Lines: 25

> In other words,    uucp file site!~uucp/file     works.
> 
> Dave Sherman

In all the documentation, the claim has been made that the proper way of saying
what you meant is:

	uucp file site!~/file

Many machines (and many more as time goes on and people realize the need for
security) use different logins for each uucp neighbor.  The code that comes
from AT&T correctly deals with this by special casing the particular idiom
"~/file" as meaning "file in the uucppublic directory, whatever it may be
called at the destination site".  The fact that your usage may work on some
machines is simply an indication that login name uucp has /usr/spool/uucppublic
as its home directory on those machines.

Simply because you have come to depend on a "feature" that (to my knowledge)
has never been documented, you may not claim that System V has introduced an
inconsistency.  The moral of the story is that if you don't play by the letter
of the rules, you'll eventually get bitten.
-- 
	Marty Shannon
UUCP:	ihnp4!eagle!mjs
Phone:	+1 201 522 6063

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Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.bugs.uucp
Subject: Re: System V introduces yet another inconsistency
Message-ID: <5138@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 1-Mar-85 13:33:44 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.5138
Posted: Fri Mar  1 13:33:44 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 1-Mar-85 13:33:44 EST
References: <454@lsuc.UUCP>, <1242@eagle.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 29

> In all the documentation, the claim has been made that the proper way of saying
> what you meant is:
> 
> 	uucp file site!~/file

Please point to where it says this in the V7 uucp documentation.  Uucp
far pre-dates System V, and AT&T cannot retroactively say "we did this
all along".

> Many machines (and many more as time goes on and people realize the need for
> security) use different logins for each uucp neighbor.

Of course.  So do we.  But ~uucp gets the expected effect on our machine.
What does the use of separate logins for each uucp neighbor have to do
with where uucp's home directory is??

On investigation, it turns out that ~uucp is not documented in the Bell
documents.  Either this convention was invented within Bell and got
propagated by folklore, or it was invented by the Duke people who were
some of the first serious non-Bell uucp users.  The convention definitely
appears in Duke's how-to-set-up-uucp documentation, which is what first
got a lot of non-Bell sites onto the network.

It appears that AT&T has gone its arrogant, insular way and has elected
to ignore the de-facto standard of the rest of the uucp community in
favor of introducing its own.  Argh...
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site down.FUN
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!princeton!down!honey
From: ho...@down.FUN (code 101)
Newsgroups: net.bugs.uucp
Subject: Re: System V introduces yet another inconsistency
Message-ID: <457@down.FUN>
Date: Sun, 3-Mar-85 08:03:34 EST
Article-I.D.: down.457
Posted: Sun Mar  3 08:03:34 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 4-Mar-85 08:06:32 EST
References: <454@lsuc.UUCP> <1242@eagle.UUCP> <5138@utzoo.UUCP>
Organization: Princeton University, EECS
Lines: 21

uucp man pages since time immemorial have documented ~uucp.
surprisingly, henry spencer suggests that at&t's decision to
support this convention is arrogant and insular.  for shame,
henry.  are you suggesting is that some sort of magic should
make ~uucp mean something different?  unclean!

it is hardly arrogance on at&t's part for individual uucp
administrators to put uucp's home directory where they choose.
e.g., allegra has been running with the uucp home directory in
/usr/lib/uucp (where it belongs!) essentially forever, without
complaint.

not until honey danber has ~/file been properly documented; this
is now almost fixed:  the man page indicates that ~/file stands
for /usr/spool/uucppublic/file, which is almost true.  while the
default public directory is /usr/spool/uucppublic, this may be
changed by declaring LOGNAME=uufoo PUBDIR=whatever in the
Permissions file.  perhaps the real man page (which is offline,
in my office) gets it right.

	peter

Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.bugs.uucp
Subject: Re: System V introduces yet another inconsistency
Message-ID: <5169@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 5-Mar-85 12:16:33 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.5169
Posted: Tue Mar  5 12:16:33 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 5-Mar-85 12:16:33 EST
References: <454@lsuc.UUCP> <1242@eagle.UUCP> <5138@utzoo.UUCP>, <457@down.FUN>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 20

> it is hardly arrogance on at&t's part for individual uucp
> administrators to put uucp's home directory where they choose.

Except that it breaks a convention that much of the uucp world has
come to rely on.  If you don't care what you break (this attitude
is known as "arrogance" if one is feeling polite, and by less printable
words if one has just been bitten by it), you can change anything.

> not until honey danber has ~/file been properly documented; this
> is now almost fixed:  the man page indicates that ~/file stands
> for /usr/spool/uucppublic/file ...

I'm glad to hear that Honey Danber has finally documented this stuff.
I agree, by the way, that ~/file is a far-superior notation.  But a
good part of the world has been using ~uucp for quite a while, and
the conversion problem needs to be handly gently and patiently, not
by arbitrary fiat.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry