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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: ont.general,ont.uucp,can.general
Subject: storm arrives -- impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <6046@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 11-Oct-85 12:23:07 EDT
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6046
Posted: Fri Oct 11 12:23:07 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 11-Oct-85 12:23:07 EDT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 44

Effective one week from today, i.e. Friday 18 Oct 1985, unless I am given
some really good arguments to the contrary, utzoo will cease to accept or
forward the following newsgroups and their subgroups:

	net.philosophy
	net.politics
	net.religion
	net.bizarre
	net.flame

In addition, there is a significant probability that some or all of the
following will also get the axe shortly:

	net.music
	net.audio
	net.abortion
	net.auto
	net.movies
	net.women
	net.sf-lovers

The reason for all this is simple:  our phone bills are reaching the
danger point.  The last monthly bill was over $1000.  The cost-sharing
agreement with various local sites helps, but not enough.  The general
trends in overall traffic, traffic per newsgroup, and phone bills are
upward.  That first list of newsgroups, with their subgroups, constitutes
25% of recent traffic.  The second list adds another 15-20%.

When I say "really good arguments", please note that I do not mean telling
me that you just love net.X and would be driven to the depths of despair
(or homicidal rage) if it vanished.  What I mean is telling me why the group
in question is worth enough to you that WE should pay $200+/year for it.

Our expenditures on the network are justified in terms of the technical
information flow.  None of the above groups can be defended in this way.
Note that I have picked only the indisputably non-technical groups with
heavy traffic.  I regard things like net.sources.mac with a very jaundiced
eye, and their day may come, but right now I'm willing to consider them
legitimate.

I deeply regret having to do this, but I see no other solution.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.config
Subject: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <6047@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 11-Oct-85 12:25:38 EDT
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6047
Posted: Fri Oct 11 12:25:38 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 11-Oct-85 12:25:38 EDT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 39

Effective one week from today, i.e. Friday 18 Oct 1985, barring radical
changes of mind, utzoo will cease to accept or forward the following
newsgroups and their subgroups:

	net.philosophy
	net.politics
	net.religion
	net.bizarre
	net.flame

In addition, there is a significant probability that some or all of the
following will also get the axe shortly:

	net.music
	net.audio
	net.abortion
	net.auto
	net.movies
	net.women
	net.sf-lovers

This will affect most of Eastern Canada, since we are the central feed
for the region.

The reason for all this is simple:  our phone bills are reaching the
danger point.  That first list of newsgroups, with their subgroups,
constitutes 25% of recent traffic.  The second list adds another 15-20%.

Our expenditures on the network are justified in terms of the technical
information flow.  None of the above groups can be defended in this way.
Note that I have picked only the indisputably non-technical groups with
heavy traffic.  I regard things like net.sources.mac with a very jaundiced
eye, and their day may come, but right now I'm willing to consider them
legitimate.

I deeply regret having to do this, but I see no other solution.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: ont.general,ont.uucp,can.general
Subject: Re: storm arrives -- impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <6051@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 17-Oct-85 16:04:23 EDT
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6051
Posted: Thu Oct 17 16:04:23 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 17-Oct-85 16:04:23 EDT
References: <6046@utzoo.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 7

The cuts originally promised for tomorrow will be postponed a few days,
tentatively to Wednesday 23 Oct 1985.  I have been ill (still am, to
some extent) and haven't finished sorting through the commentary I've
received on them.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: ont.general,ont.uucp,can.general
Subject: Re: storm arrives -- Q&A
Message-ID: <6052@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 17-Oct-85 17:45:14 EDT
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6052
Posted: Thu Oct 17 17:45:14 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 17-Oct-85 17:45:14 EDT
References: <6046@utzoo.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 51

As might be expected, there's been quite a bit of mail in response to word of
the impending cutbacks.  I've generally sent individual replies, but thought
that the audience at large might be interested in my answers to some specific
questions people ask.

Q. What about more effective cost-sharing?
A. What about it?  Can you find four or five local sites that are willing to
take 1/N share (N == number of sites) with *NO* upper limit?  Most of our
current cost-sharing partners set upper limits, which is sensible for them
because 1/N of the bill is almost always larger than said upper limits.  Note
that utzoo absorbs the rest, which means that *we* are taking >1/N share with
no upper limit except that set by our management's patience... which we are
dangerously close to exceeding.

Q. Can we arrange individual contributions to keep net.xxx alive?
A. Can you arrange enough of them?  What do we do if contributions fall short?
Cut off the group?  How in the world do we administer such a thing?  Note that
I do not personally object to *having* the "doomed" groups, just to paying Long
Distance bills for them.  If somebody else wants to bring them in from outside,
I'm willing (for now, at least) to redistribute them locally.  Caveat: other
site administrators may not share my views on this; the recent newsgroup cuts
at utcs were motivated by other considerations.

Q. Could some wealthier Toronto-area site take over utzoo's role?
A.  Any volunteers?  [long silence]  I thought not.

Q. I'll buy cutting net.xxx, but can we save the net.xxx.yyy subgroup, which
   is relatively small and maybe more relevant?
A. Maybe.  It is possible to get a subgroup without getting the parent group,
but it is cumbersome.  There is also the unpleasant possibility that traffic
from the parent group will migrate into the child.  I may be willing to make
the effort to save some subgroups, but I'm not making any blanket promises.

Q. What about X.25 or some other cheaper transmission path?
A. Name one that doesn't require any extra investment for equipment.  As at
many other sites, at utzoo Usenet is implemented using equipment whose official
primary purpose is other things.  Perhaps I could manage an equipment purchase
specifically for Usenet if it was going to solve the problems permanently --
but most of the proposed alternatives are very temporary indeed, at the current
growth rate.  Again, if *you* feel like buying the stuff, fine by me.

Q. How about lobbying for government financial support?
A. Sounds interesting; go ahead.  If I thought it was going to be easy and was
reasonably assured of success, I would probably participate.  In fact I think
it would be a lot of work and would almost certainly end in failure, and there
aren't enough hours in my day as it is.  I admit to a mild case of "volunteer
burnout":  I have been changing Usenet's diapers for four years now, and I'm
a bit tired of it.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.config
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <6063@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 19-Oct-85 20:55:10 EDT
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6063
Posted: Sat Oct 19 20:55:10 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 19-Oct-85 20:55:10 EDT
References: <6047@utzoo.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 5

The utzoo cuts have been postponed a few days due to my illness.
Tentative date is now Wed the 23rd.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84 (Fortune 01.1b1); site graffiti.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!ihnp4!mgnetp!we53!
busch!wucs!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!shell!graffiti!peter
From: pe...@graffiti.UUCP (Peter da Silva)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group,net.micro.mac
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <371@graffiti.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 23-Oct-85 09:09:20 EST
Article-I.D.: graffiti.371
Posted: Wed Oct 23 09:09:20 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 2-Nov-85 07:59:43 EST
References: <6047@utzoo.UUCP> <6081@utzoo.UUCP> <5356@amdcad.UUCP>
Organization: The Power Elite, Houston, TX
Lines: 17

> In article <6...@utzoo.UUCP> he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes:
> >I am starting to feel really hostile towards net.sources.mac, especially
> >since it's now #1 in volume...
> 
> net.peace as there would be little question of liability. But the
> volume is very high, the utility is very low, and I would love to get
> rid of it.

You know, if net.sources.mac contained sources it'd sure be less likely to
generate this sort of reaction. I think I've seen a total of one peice
of source code in it. Fine, binhex up the resources fork, but if you're
going to post to a sources group, post sources.
-- 
Name: Peter da Silva
Graphic: `-_-'
UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter
IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: ont.general,ont.uucp,can.general
Subject: Re: storm arrives -- impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <6073@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 23-Oct-85 17:02:31 EDT
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6073
Posted: Wed Oct 23 17:02:31 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 23-Oct-85 17:02:31 EDT
References: <6046@utzoo.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 19

I have requested our Long-Distance news feeds to shut off transmission
of:
	net.religion
	net.flame
	net.bizarre
	net.philosophy
	net.politics

and all subgroups thereof, as prophesied earlier.  The folks at lsuc are
bringing net.politics and net.religion.jewish in from outside, and are
feeding them to us for local redistribution (although site "utcs" is not
redistributing them, so people whose feed from us went through utcs will
need to find a new path if they want those groups).

I am still cogitating on the second list of "possible later cuts".  Stay
tuned for further news on this.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.config
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <6074@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 23-Oct-85 17:04:49 EDT
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6074
Posted: Wed Oct 23 17:04:49 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 23-Oct-85 17:04:49 EDT
References: <6047@utzoo.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 14

I have requested our Long-Distance news feeds to shut off transmission
of:
	net.religion
	net.flame
	net.bizarre
	net.philosophy
	net.politics

and all subgroups thereof, as prophesied earlier.  The folks at lsuc have
arranged an alternate Toronto-area feed for net.religion.jewish and
net.politics; the other groups are effectively dead hereabouts.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.config
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <6081@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 24-Oct-85 17:17:28 EDT
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6081
Posted: Thu Oct 24 17:17:28 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 24-Oct-85 17:17:28 EDT
References: <6047@utzoo.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 28

The slightly-revised list of further potential cuts in newsgroups at
utzoo is as follows:

	net.music	except net.music.synth
	net.audio
	net.abortion
	net.movies
	net.women
	net.sf-lovers
	net.origins

The changes are the addition of net.origins, the stay of execution on
net.auto (which has dropped off seismo's top-25 chart), and the exception
for net.music.synth (which can be argued to have technical relevance to
the computer-music people).  Together these groups approach 20% of the
network traffic.  Unless coherent arguments are advanced as to why we
should continue paying for them, utzoo will cease transmitting these
groups Long Distance on Friday 1 Nov 1985.  We are willing to continue
redistributing them locally, but this will depend on somebody else
bringing them up from the US.

I am starting to feel really hostile towards net.sources.mac, especially
since it's now #1 in volume, but there have been enough anguished screams
about the possibility of losing it that I'm not going to act on my feelings
about it... yet.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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Path: utzoo!decvax!decwrl!amdcad!phil
From: p...@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <5356@amdcad.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 25-Oct-85 20:35:46 EDT
Article-I.D.: amdcad.5356
Posted: Fri Oct 25 20:35:46 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 26-Oct-85 03:18:57 EDT
References: <6047@utzoo.UUCP> <6081@utzoo.UUCP>
Reply-To: p...@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai)
Organization: AMD, Sunnyvale, California
Lines: 24

In article <6...@utzoo.UUCP> he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes:
>I am starting to feel really hostile towards net.sources.mac, especially
>since it's now #1 in volume...

I would second that. The shareware postings are of course irritating
but even the non-commercial stuff bothers me. The way I see it,
there's a small group of mac users who have discovered this "free" way
of distributing software, namely USENET. It reminds me of the
proposals to form net.peace on the basis that USENET was a good way
for them to keep in touch. The common problem that I have with this is
that both these interests have nothing to do with the nature of the
network or its intended use, namely to support unix users. If the
volume were low net.sources.mac would be much more acceptable than
net.peace as there would be little question of liability. But the
volume is very high, the utility is very low, and I would love to get
rid of it.

Anyone else agree?
-- 
 I'm glad I left the lEast Coast.

 Phil Ngai +1 408 749-5720
 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil
 ARPA: amdcad!p...@decwrl.dec.com

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Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site yetti.UUCP
Path: utzoo!utcsri!utcs!mnetor!yetti!peter
From: pe...@yetti.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <269@yetti.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 26-Oct-85 21:01:28 EST
Article-I.D.: yetti.269
Posted: Sat Oct 26 21:01:28 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 28-Oct-85 09:03:48 EST
References: <6047@utzoo.UUCP> <6081@utzoo.UUCP> <5356@amdcad.UUCP>
Reply-To: pe...@yetti.UUCP (Peter Roosen-Runge)
Organization: York University Computer Science
Lines: 45

In article <5...@amdcad.UUCP> p...@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes:
>In article <6...@utzoo.UUCP> he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes:
>>I am starting to feel really hostile towards net.sources.mac, especially
>>since it's now #1 in volume...
>
>I would second that. The shareware postings are of course irritating
>but even the non-commercial stuff bothers me. 

I can see how positive expressions of interest in news groups or topics
(such as the recent support for net.internat) help sustain 
the net both in concept and in practice, but how does the  expression
of personal dislikes achieve anything except increase net traffic volume?
Why should I care what Ngai likes or dislikes? (and if I do care, shouldn't
net.flame be the place to get the latest bulletin on the state of his spleen?
 -- of course, I can't actually read net.flame here, but that's another
issue.)

>  ... these interests have nothing to do with the nature of the
>network or its intended use, namely to support unix users. 

It seems to me that the "nature" of the net is going to depend on what its
participants want to read and what they find valuable -- which is not going
to be a fixed quantity but is going to change with time.  At the moment,
macs and mac software are one popular topic among many; tomorrow, it may
Amigas, for all I know (:-)).  So what?

The last phrase about "intended use" is a giveaway as to what's really
going on here -- the 'original inhabitant' syndrome: we are supposed 
to be locked into some personal conception of the net creators or Mr. Ngai
as to what it's all about. Luckily that's not the way technology works (at
least in a reasonably free society).  By now a lot of people are 
getting accounts on Unix machines or buying Unix boxes just to get access to
the net. So the net  no longer exists just "to support unix users"; rather Unix 
is a (currently indispensable) tool for the net.

> Phil Ngai +1 408 749-5720
> ARPA: amdcad!p...@decwrl.dec.com
-- 

   Peter H. Roosen-Runge, Department of Computer Science, York University
                          Toronto M3J 1P3 , Ontario, Canada
_____________________________________________________________________________
	From a land where Lord Spencer rules -- No Admittance
	to Undesirable Newsgroups.
_____________________________________________________________________________

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Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site spice.cs.cmu.edu
Path: utzoo!decvax!bellcore!petrus!scherzo!allegra!mit-eddie!think!harvard!
seismo!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!spice.cs.cmu.edu!tdn
From: t...@spice.cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Newton)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group,net.micro.mac,net.sources.mac
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <472@spice.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 28-Oct-85 00:32:38 EST
Article-I.D.: spice.472
Posted: Mon Oct 28 00:32:38 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 28-Oct-85 23:38:44 EST
Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, CS/RI
Lines: 44

<Note to net.micro.mac and net.sources.mac readers:  this is a reply to a
 message that appeared in net.news.group.  I'm sorry about posting a non-
 source article to a sources newsgroup, but considering that net.bizarre
 was deleted without warning (even if it was mostly trash) . . .         >

Phil Ngai writes:
>In article <6...@utzoo.UUCP> he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes:
>>I am starting to feel really hostile towards net.sources.mac, especially
>>since it's now #1 in volume...
>
>I would second that. The shareware postings are of course irritating
>but even the non-commercial stuff bothers me. The way I see it,
>there's a small group of mac users who have discovered this "free" way
>of distributing software, namely USENET. It reminds me of the
>proposals to form net.peace on the basis that USENET was a good way
>for them to keep in touch. The common problem that I have with this is
>that both these interests have nothing to do with the nature of the
>network or its intended use, namely to support unix users. If the
>volume were low net.sources.mac would be much more acceptable than
>net.peace as there would be little question of liability. But the
>volume is very high, the utility is very low, and I would love to get
>rid of it.
>
>Anyone else agree?

No -- I don't agree.  Shareware postings by people who stand to gain from them
financially (the author(s) of the program or even its user(s) in the case of a
"you get $X from registrations of copies with your serial number"-type deal)
shouldn't be allowed.  But leave the rest of net.sources.mac alone!!!

If your criterion for eliminating a group is that it doesn't directly 'support
unix users' but that it has a high volume, you can start by getting rid of the
mega-flamage nets such as net.flame, net.politics, and net.religion.  None of
them has anywhere near the utility of net.sources.mac.  For that matter, you
can probably also get rid of various non-unix newsgroups such as net.micro.pc,
net.auto, net.cooks, and net.consumers while you're at it.  Since there won't
be any need for anything other than net.sources.* and net.unix.*, you'll have
no reason not to go ahead and delete net.news.group.

Now there's an idea!!  Delete net.news.group.  All the discussions could be
held in net.bizarre (which seems like a much more appropriate place  :-).

                                        -- Thomas Newton
                                           Thomas.New...@spice.cs.cmu.edu

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group,net.micro.mac,net.sources.mac
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <6090@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 29-Oct-85 11:35:49 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6090
Posted: Tue Oct 29 11:35:49 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 29-Oct-85 11:35:49 EST
References: <472@spice.cs.cmu.edu>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 9

> If your criterion for eliminating a group is that it doesn't directly 'support
> unix users' but that it has a high volume, you can start by getting rid of the
> mega-flamage nets such as net.flame, net.politics, and net.religion...

That is exactly what is being done, and that is the context in which the
desirability of net.sources.mac was originally raised.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <6091@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 29-Oct-85 11:44:49 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6091
Posted: Tue Oct 29 11:44:49 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 29-Oct-85 11:44:49 EST
References: <6047@utzoo.UUCP> <6081@utzoo.UUCP> <5356@amdcad.UUCP>, <269@yetti.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 35

> It seems to me that the "nature" of the net is going to depend on what its
> participants want to read and what they find valuable -- which is not going
> to be a fixed quantity but is going to change with time.  At the moment,
> macs and mac software are one popular topic among many; tomorrow, it may
> Amigas, for all I know (:-)).  So what?

The nature of the net is also going to depend on who's paying the bills --
"he who pays the piper calls the tune" -- and the people paying the bills
are mostly Unix systems interested specifically (although not exclusively)
in Unix support.

> .... Luckily that's not the way technology works (at
> least in a reasonably free society)....

As the man who gets the phone bills for a backbone site, I assure you that
there is nothing "free" about Usenet!  :-)

> _____________________________________________________________________________
> 	From a land where Lord Spencer rules -- No Admittance
> 	to Undesirable Newsgroups.
> _____________________________________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________________________________

	From a land where Lord Spencer pays the bills -- if you
	want net.flame, you can finance it yourself!
_____________________________________________________________________________

P.S.  I hear tales that some people in net.news.group don't seem to have
realized that There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, and are criticizing
newsgroup cuts.  I got sick of net.news.group and unsubscribed long ago,
so if you want me to see it you'll have to send me mail.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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Path: utzoo!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc3!mplvax!rec
From: r...@mplvax.UUCP (Richard Currier)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group,net.micro.mac,net.sources.mac
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <227@mplvax.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 30-Oct-85 12:06:29 EST
Article-I.D.: mplvax.227
Posted: Wed Oct 30 12:06:29 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 3-Nov-85 02:37:49 EST
References: <472@spice.cs.cmu.edu> <6090@utzoo.UUCP>
Reply-To: r...@mplvax.UUCP (Richard Currier)
Organization: Marine Physical Laborator of SIO at UCSD
Lines: 33

In article <6...@utzoo.UUCP> he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes:
>> If your criterion for eliminating a group is that it doesn't directly support
>> unix users' but that it has a high volume, you can start by getting rid of
>> the mega-flamage nets such as net.flame, net.politics, and net.religion...
>
>That is exactly what is being done, and that is the context in which the
>desirability of net.sources.mac was originally raised.
>-- 
>				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
>				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

Mr Spencer, I'm sure you have the best interests of the net at heart but I
must assert that net.sources.mac is used by a number of people at my organ-
ization and many others at other sites that I have been communicating with
regularly over the past year for legitimate UNIX related work. We are inves-
tigating the use of the Macintosh as a productivity tool in the UNIX environ-
ment. This group directly supports the WORK efforts of many UNIX users. If you
have not as yet gotten a large volume of response to the discussion of killing
the group it is because most users of the net probably don't monitor the ad-
ministrative groups and don't realize that a group is on the way out until it
happens. I stumbled on the fact myself. I plan, however, to take a more serious
interest in the way the net is run in the future. It seems that the net has
grown out of its adolescence into a more mature state that will need the 
support and active interest of its users if it is to be usefull in the unix
work place. There must be a way to govern the creation and especially the 
deletion of newsgroups that better serves the unix community that depends on
the net for vital information.

direction
-- 

	richard currier		marine physical lab	u.c. san diego
	{ihnp4|decvax|akgua|dcdwest|ucbvax}	!sdcsvax!mplvax!rec

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From: h...@bu-cs.UUCP (Bill Henneman)
Newsgroups: net.news.group,net.micro.mac
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <748@bu-cs.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 5-Nov-85 10:00:58 EST
Article-I.D.: bu-cs.748
Posted: Tue Nov  5 10:00:58 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 7-Nov-85 05:15:04 EST
Organization: Boston Univ Comp. Sci.
Lines: 24

This is probably going to cause incredible flame traffic, but what the
heck.  I would like to see net.xxx.sources stay around, but would like
to propose that the word *sources* be interpreted in the computer
science sense (i.e., stuff that goes into a compiler or assembler), not
the more general common usage: ASCII text only, no binaries.  This would
have three side-effects:

1) the much-discussed concern over abuse of the net by for-profit
shareware posters vanishes;

2) the amount of traffic to the newsgroup declines;

3) the potential for malignant trojan horse practical jokes vanishes (it
hasn't been a problem here, but	it has happened on some BBSs).


This is a compromise solution, and it comes at some cost to the readers
of the net.  Nonetheless, I feel that the restricted sources group would
be of value, and certainly of greater value than having the group vanish
altogether.

					Bill Henneman
					Computer Research Center
					Boston University

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group,net.micro.mac,net.sources.mac
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <6121@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 5-Nov-85 12:04:06 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6121
Posted: Tue Nov  5 12:04:06 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 5-Nov-85 12:04:06 EST
References: <472@spice.cs.cmu.edu> <6090@utzoo.UUCP>, <227@mplvax.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 24

> Mr Spencer, I'm sure you have the best interests of the net at heart

Actually, I have the survival of the local section of the net at heart.
The bills are becoming unsupportable; the volume of traffic must come down.
(No, compress and 2400 baud are not enough -- we already use both.  The
net has demonstrated a remarkable ability to outgrow such temporary fixes,
and in fact to grow faster than the rate of introduction of such fixes.)

> I must assert that net.sources.mac is used by a number of people at my organ-
> ization and many others at other sites that I have been communicating with
> regularly over the past year for legitimate UNIX related work...

I am willing to believe this.  Are you willing to prove it by using groups
like net.sources.mac to publish things that are of use to non-Mac users,
i.e. NOT JUST MAC-SPECIFIC BINARIES?!?  There is little evidence of this to
date.

I agree that net.sources.mac directly supports the work-related efforts of
many people, a fair number of them involved with Unix as well.  What I don't
believe, I'm afraid, is that the rest of us are getting a fair return on it.
Yes, the net helps you:  what have you done to return the favor?
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: ont.general,ont.uucp,can.general
Subject: more cuts, slightly late
Message-ID: <6123@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 5-Nov-85 17:04:43 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6123
Posted: Tue Nov  5 17:04:43 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 5-Nov-85 17:04:43 EST
References: <6046@utzoo.UUCP>, <6073@utzoo.UUCP>, <6080@utzoo.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 14

As warned of earlier, we no longer pass the following over Long Distance
links, and have requested our Long Distance feeds to stop sending them
to us.

	net.music	except net.music.synth
	net.audio
	net.abortion
	net.movies
	net.women
	net.sf-lovers
	net.origins
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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Path: utzoo!decvax!bellcore!petrus!scherzo!allegra!linus!gatech!royt
From: r...@gatech.CSNET (Roy M Turner)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group,net.micro.mac
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <1883@gatech.CSNET>
Date: Tue, 5-Nov-85 19:43:14 EST
Article-I.D.: gatech.1883
Posted: Tue Nov  5 19:43:14 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 7-Nov-85 02:49:14 EST
References: <6047@utzoo.UUCP> <6081@utzoo.UUCP> <5356@amdcad.UUCP> <371@graffiti.UUCP>
Reply-To: r...@gatech.UUCP (Roy M Turner)
Organization: School of Information and Computer Science, Georgia Tech, Atlanta
Lines: 22

In article <3...@graffiti.UUCP> pe...@graffiti.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>
>You know, if net.sources.mac contained sources it'd sure be less likely to
>generate this sort of reaction. I think I've seen a total of one peice
>of source code in it. Fine, binhex up the resources fork, but if you're
>going to post to a sources group, post sources.
>

Well, perhaps you could recommend a language for the postings?  Pascal?
MSBasic?  Assembler? C (and are all the C's available for the Mac
compatible??)?  XLISP??  As it is now, the binhex files aren't readable by
humans, but they *are* usable by all MacIntosh owners (unless you have done
something funky to your Mac, of course).  If source is posted, then it is
usable to only a small percentage of MacIntosh owners, ie, those with that
particular language.  If you want the source, you are probably wanting to
change something in it (else you would just compile it anyway), and can ask
the author of it, and if he or she wants you to have access to the source,
he/she can send it to you.

Roy

PS--don't bother with flames, my "n" key is getting worn out! :-)

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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!houxm!vax135!petsd!peora!jer
From: j...@peora.UUCP (J. Eric Roskos)
Newsgroups: net.news.group,net.micro.mac
Subject: Re: impending newsgroup cuts
Message-ID: <1778@peora.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 6-Nov-85 08:33:37 EST
Article-I.D.: peora.1778
Posted: Wed Nov  6 08:33:37 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 7-Nov-85 06:16:45 EST
References: <748@bu-cs.UUCP>
Organization: Perkin-Elmer SDC, Orlando, Fl.
Lines: 13

> I would like to see net.xxx.sources stay around, but would like to propose
> that the word *sources* be interpreted in the computer science sense
> (i.e., stuff that goes into a compiler or assembler), not the more general
> common usage:  ASCII text only, no binaries.

But some of us don't have compilers, because we bought our machines back
in the early days, and so have small macs that can't compile...
-- 
Shyy-Anzr:  J. Eric Roskos
UUCP: Ofc:  ..!{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!vax135!petsd!peora!jer
     Home:  ..!{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!vax135!petsd!peora!jerpc!jer
  US Mail:  MS 795; Perkin-Elmer SDC;
	    2486 Sand Lake Road, Orlando, FL 32809-7642

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Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!shell!graffiti!peter
From: pe...@graffiti.UUCP (Peter da Silva)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group,net.micro.mac
Subject: Net.*SOURCES*.mac
Message-ID: <415@graffiti.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 6-Nov-85 13:13:04 EST
Article-I.D.: graffiti.415
Posted: Wed Nov  6 13:13:04 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 9-Nov-85 06:45:11 EST
References: <371@graffiti.UUCP> <1883@gatech.CSNET>
Organization: The Power Elite, Houston, TX
Lines: 58

> In article <3...@graffiti.UUCP> pe...@graffiti.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
> >
> >You know, if net.sources.mac contained sources it'd sure be less likely to
> >generate this sort of reaction. I think I've seen a total of one peice
> >of source code in it. Fine, binhex up the resources fork, but if you're
> >going to post to a sources group, post sources.
> >
> 
> Well, perhaps you could recommend a language for the postings?

Whatever they're written in. NEON if that's what you used.

> Pascal? MSBasic?  Assembler?

Sure!

> C (and are all the C's available for the Mac compatible??)?

No, but that's a seperate gripe. Post in 'C' if that's what you used.

> XLISP??

Be nice. Be nice to see some XLISP source in any group, but I don't
think it's a "real" language. Certainly I don't have any applications
for it.

> As it is now, the binhex files aren't readable by
> humans, but they *are* usable by all MacIntosh owners (unless you have done
> something funky to your Mac, of course).

But it's useless to non-macintosh owners who get upset at net.sources.mac
because they see it as a resource drain. That was my original point.

> If source is posted, then it is
> usable to only a small percentage of MacIntosh owners, ie, those with that
> particular language.

True, and the corrolory of my previous point. I'm not arguing for or against
binhexes. I'm arguing for sources. For public relations if nothing else. If
the binhex is posted, it's only usable by a small percentage of programmers
who use that particular language, those who are macintosh owners. :->

> If you want the source, you are probably wanting to
> change something in it (else you would just compile it anyway), and can ask
> the author of it, and if he or she wants you to have access to the source,
> he/she can send it to you.

I want the source so I can see about porting it to non-macintosh machines.
If you can't write code that can be easily ported, feel free to hide behind
BINHEX. Writing non-portable code in a high-level language is a sign of
incompetance. I wouldn't want to run code written by an incompetant programmer
under any circumstances. Unfortunately, I have to: I have a "home computer".
The software involved is the operating system. But... that's another story.
-- 
Name: Peter da Silva
Graphic: `-_-'
UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter
IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter

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sdcc7!ln63fkn
From: ln63...@sdcc7.UUCP (Paul van de Graaf)
Newsgroups: net.news.group
Subject: Ban the binaries!
Message-ID: <162@sdcc7.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 8-Nov-85 11:04:58 EST
Article-I.D.: sdcc7.162
Posted: Fri Nov  8 11:04:58 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 11-Nov-85 06:42:46 EST
References: <748@bu-cs.UUCP> <1778@peora.UUCP>
Reply-To: ln63...@sdcc7.UUCP (Paul van de Graaf)
Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center
Lines: 40

In article <1...@peora.UUCP> j...@peora.UUCP (J. Eric Roskos) writes:
 	[ In response to a proposal to ban posting binaries ]
>But some of us don't have compilers, because we bought our machines back
>in the early days, and so have small macs that can't compile...

So, Upgrade your Mac!  Buy a decent compiler!  Subscribe to Compuserve!
Join a User Group!  I suppose Mac owners are SO CHEAP they want the other
Usenet sites to pay for their upgrades :-).  As it is now, the backbone
sites only support their "free" software.

Net.sources.mac sets a bad precedent by posting only binaries.  Now we have
the Amiga & Atari ST.  Can we afford to post binaries for these machines?
OF COURSE NOT!  Suppose Hack was distributed as 108 binaries...  Usenet 
would probably no longer exist.

Binaries are bad for many reasons:
1.)  Very Poor bandwidth.  7 bits of ASCII ~= 7 bits of code. 
			   A 5 line "hello world" program generates about 4K
			   bytes of code on a VAX.

2.)  Not Human readable.   Enough said.

3.)  Not portable.	   Might end up with 3 binaries of the same program for
			   the Mac, Amiga, and ST.  A well written C program
			   with a lot of #ifdefs might serve all three.

4.)  Repetition.	   A bug or upgrade usually requires a second post.  
			   A context diff or ed script usually suffices for
			   sources.  Also, the same runtime, stdio or floating
			   point libraries can get posted numerous times with 
			   binaries.

5.)  Shareware concerns.   Enough said.

The only thing worse that's worse than binaries is assembly language, but at
least it's human readable. [ well... some of it is :-) ] 

Let's get rid of binaries now, or at least restrict them to moderated groups.

Paul van de Graaf		sdcsvax!sdcc7!ln63fkn		U. C. San Diego	

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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!beth
From: b...@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (JB)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group,net.micro.mac
Subject: FLAME Re: Net.*SOURCES*.mac
Message-ID: <1316@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 11-Nov-85 10:03:29 EST
Article-I.D.: sphinx.1316
Posted: Mon Nov 11 10:03:29 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 12-Nov-85 04:32:06 EST
References: <415@graffiti.UUCP>
Organization: Wits' End
Lines: 66

[(This file must be converted with Asbestos 4.0)]

******************** FLAME ON:

From: pe...@graffiti.UUCP (Peter da Silva), Message-ID: <4...@graffiti.UUCP>:
>> As it is now, the binhex files aren't readable by
>> humans, but they *are* usable by all MacIntosh owners (unless you have
>> done something funky to your Mac, of course).
>
>But it's useless to non-macintosh owners who get upset at net.sources.mac
>because they see it as a resource drain. That was my original point.

Oh my God, you mean there's stuff in net.sources.***MAC*** that are only
useful to ***MAC*** users?!?!  Well, I say we torch the whole damn group
then.  Better torch net.math too, cause it has stuff that's only useful
to people interested in math.  And net.micro.amiga.  And net.*.  Looks
like we can only keep net.announce.newusers and net.general.  Great idea,
Peter.

>> If source is posted, then it is
>> usable to only a small percentage of MacIntosh owners, ie, those with that
>> particular language.
>
>True, and the corrolory of my previous point. I'm not arguing for or against
>binhexes. I'm arguing for sources. For public relations if nothing else. If
>the binhex is posted, it's only usable by a small percentage of programmers
>who use that particular language, those who are macintosh owners. :->

And the sources are only directly usable by an ever smaller percentage:
those who are Macintosh owners who have a particular compiler.  Another
great idea.  There is no net.binhex.mac (clearly there never should be -
it would only be of interest to people with Mac's).  If only source was
posted, 100% of the people who now get benefit from net.sources.mac would
lose benefit from a significant percentage of the postings.  But ***MAC***
users should be willing to donate net.sources.***MAC*** to people who
don't have ***MACs***, right?  Brilliant idea, Peter.

>I want the source so I can see about porting it to non-macintosh machines.
>If you can't write code that can be easily ported, feel free to hide behind
>BINHEX. Writing non-portable code in a high-level language is a sign of
>incompetance. I wouldn't want to run code written by an incompetant programmer
>under any circumstances. Unfortunately, I have to: I have a "home computer".

Well excuuuuse me, you arrogant little twerp.  I thought net.sources.
***MAC*** was for ***MAC*** users.  I didn't know you Commodore 64 users
were interested in calls to the Macintosh toolbox.  Want us inconsiderate
Mac owners to write every thing in Basic for you too, Peter?  Competent
programmers only write in Basic anyway, right Peter?

BTW Peter, *I'm* not interested in reading postings by incompetAnt
spellers.  So what do you think we ought to do about incompetAnt spellers
who show their incompetAnce in postings to net.micro.mac, especially when
they clearly have nothing worthwhile to contribute to people who are
interested in Macs?  I have an idea:  Torch 'em.  If you're not
interested in Mac stuff, stay the hell out of net.micro.***MAC*** and
net.sources.***MAC***, and then the ***MAC*** stuff won't bother you.

******************** FLAME STILL ON, you little twerp.

-- 

--JB         (Beth Christy, U. of Chicago, ..!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!beth)

"I once heard the remainder of a colony of ants, which had been partially
 obliterated by a cow's foot, seriously discussing the intentions of the
 gods towards their civilization."   -- Archy the Cockroach

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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!mark
From: m...@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton)
Newsgroups: net.news.group
Subject: Re: Ban the binaries!
Message-ID: <1600@cbosgd.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 11-Nov-85 15:50:39 EST
Article-I.D.: cbosgd.1600
Posted: Mon Nov 11 15:50:39 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 12-Nov-85 04:41:58 EST
References: <748@bu-cs.UUCP> <1778@peora.UUCP> <162@sdcc7.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Oh
Lines: 32

I agree with Paul.  I think one of the reasons why net.sources.mac
has so much volume is that the binaries suck in libraries and
runtime systems and such.

Since we are now faced with several machines for which it might
make equal sense to post binhex images, I propose the following:

First idea: create a new top level distribution "sw" (for software).
This is used for software distribution ala net.sources.  We create
subgroups such as sw.sources, sw.binhex, sw.disc, sw.wanted, sw.bugs.
(Moderation might fit in here somewhere too, I can see sw.mod.sources,
for example.)  This distribution is not necessarily carried by the
whole net, but just the parts that want it.  In particular, I can
imagine that sw.binhex might be only carried by places that want it.
This would require that an alternate backbone be set up, so that only
backbone sites using it would have to carry it.

[To all of you who are griping about losing net.sources.mac because
some backbone site won't pay for your free lunch, quit griping and
form your own link to another site that carries it!  If you form
your own backbone you'll have control over it.  If you won't pay for
the traffic, and you can't find someone else who is generous enough
to pay for it for you, then you have no business berating people
who are unwilling to pay your bills.]

Second idea: set up one or several hosts which are "sources servers",
with the binaries (or binhex or whatever) available for public UUCP
dialin.  People who want the files can call the nearest server and
grab the program.  net.sources.mac could be used to announce that
a new program is available from some set of servers.

	Mark Horton

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.config,net.news.group,net.micro.mac
Subject: Re: FLAME Re: Net.*SOURCES*.mac
Message-ID: <6134@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 12-Nov-85 11:56:07 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6134
Posted: Tue Nov 12 11:56:07 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 12-Nov-85 11:56:07 EST
References: <415@graffiti.UUCP>, <1316@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 19

> And the sources are only directly usable by an ever smaller percentage:
> those who are Macintosh owners who have a particular compiler.  ...

But indirectly usable by a much larger community, potentially at least.
That was the point.  Mac binaries are useless to non-Mac people.

> ...  I thought net.sources.***MAC*** was for ***MAC*** users...

Just how many Mac users are helping to pay for it?

> ...If you're not
> interested in Mac stuff, stay the hell out of net.micro.***MAC*** and
> net.sources.***MAC***, and then the ***MAC*** stuff won't bother you.

I read neither group, but whenever I get utzoo's phone bills I am all too
fully aware of their existence.  Sorry, ignoring it won't make it go away.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry