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From: r...@mplvax.UUCP (Richard Currier)
Newsgroups: net.news.group,net.news.adm,net.news.config
Subject: Removing Macintosh related groups from the net.
Message-ID: <226@mplvax.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 29-Oct-85 13:25:26 EST
Article-I.D.: mplvax.226
Posted: Tue Oct 29 13:25:26 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 30-Oct-85 12:45:27 EST
Organization: Marine Physical Laborator of SIO at UCSD
Lines: 36



I must strongly protest the discussed removal of the Macintosh related
groups.  I use the groups for my WORK which, among other things, involves 
looking into the feasiblity of using the Macintosh as an inexpensive 
graphics terminal IN THE UNIX ENVIRONMENT. 

There is a growing number people in my organization using the Macintosh
to offload some of our word processing/engineering drawing tasks to lighten
the load on our Unix systems in addition to using them as intelligent/graphics
terminals IN THE UNIX ENVIRONMENT. A steady flow of information and software 
from others doing the same kinds of research is essential to our WORK. 

Finding the MacWrite to troff converter and the MacPaint to imagen software 
on the group has been helpful to our WORK. It allows us to create documents
with drawings in the Macintosh environment and upload them to be modified and
distributed to others in our UNIX ENVIRONMENT and converted to hardcopy on
our laser printer.

I emphasize the WORK because that is what this network is supposed to be used
for: the dissemination of information for the purpose of increasing one's eff-
ectiveness at WORK. If there is a legal problem with "shareware" then find out
about it and act accordingly. If there is no real problem, then leave the 
shareware alone. I have found a few gems come through that more than justify
the existence of the group. Software, by the way, that I use in my WORK. 

I have to strongly protest any attempt to limit mac.sources in any way until 
it can be shown that there are no other alternatives. Net.micro.mac and Net.
mac.sources are useful, productive and legitimate groups and will remain so 
certainly as long as there people on the net investigating the use of the 
Macintosh in the UNIX WORK PLACE.

-- 

	richard currier		marine physical lab	u.c. san diego
	{ihnp4|decvax|akgua|dcdwest|ucbvax}	!sdcsvax!mplvax!rec

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.group,net.news.adm,net.news.config
Subject: Re: Removing Macintosh related groups from the net.
Message-ID: <6100@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 30-Oct-85 16:04:35 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6100
Posted: Wed Oct 30 16:04:35 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 30-Oct-85 16:04:35 EST
References: <226@mplvax.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 15

> [net.sources.mac is highly relevant to my work, therefore...]
> I have to strongly protest any attempt to limit mac.sources in any way until 
> it can be shown that there are no other alternatives. Net.micro.mac and Net.
> mac.sources are useful, productive and legitimate groups and will remain so 
> certainly as long as there people on the net investigating the use of the 
> Macintosh in the UNIX WORK PLACE.

Have you considered mailing floppies as an alternative?  It's a LOT cheaper,
and it means that the bills are paid by you rather than by others.  You are
ignoring the fact that many of the sites paying the bills are *not* using
the Macintosh in Unix-related work.  It sounds like interesting stuff, but
why exactly should I pay for voluminous newsgroups related to it?
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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From: cmo...@amdimage.UUCP (chris moore)
Newsgroups: net.news.group,net.news.adm,net.news.config
Subject: Re: Removing Macintosh related groups from the net.
Message-ID: <706@amdimage.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 6-Nov-85 16:39:32 EST
Article-I.D.: amdimage.706
Posted: Wed Nov  6 16:39:32 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 10-Nov-85 06:50:12 EST
References: <226@mplvax.UUCP> <6100@utzoo.UUCP>
Reply-To: cmo...@amdimage.UUCP (chris moore)
Organization: AMDIMAGE, Sunnyvale, CA
Lines: 34

In article <6...@utzoo.UUCP> he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes:
>> [net.sources.mac is highly relevant to my work, therefore...]
>> I have to strongly protest any attempt to limit mac.sources in any way until 
>> it can be shown that there are no other alternatives. Net.micro.mac and Net.
>> mac.sources are useful, productive and legitimate groups and will remain so 
>> certainly as long as there people on the net investigating the use of the 
>> Macintosh in the UNIX WORK PLACE.
>
>Have you considered mailing floppies as an alternative?  It's a LOT cheaper,
>and it means that the bills are paid by you rather than by others.  You are
>ignoring the fact that many of the sites paying the bills are *not* using
>the Macintosh in Unix-related work.  It sounds like interesting stuff, but
>why exactly should I pay for voluminous newsgroups related to it?
>-- 
>				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
>				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

I missed the beginning of this discussion, but I have to disagree
with Henry's comment.  Sure, there are a lot of sites not using
Macintoshes, (including mine), but there are also a lot of sites
not interested in religion, sports, graphics, telecommunications, or
dozens of other subjects which are supported by the network. Maybe
I've missed something here, but I don't see why the Macintosh group
should be singled out when there are a lot of other groups that
I don't care about, but I'm paying bills to move them.


-- 

Of course we have backup tapes.  Do you want last year or the
 year before?

 Chris Moore (408) 749-4692
 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!amdimage!cmoore

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From: ho...@rosevax.UUCP (Andy Hogan)
Newsgroups: net.news.group,net.news.adm,net.news.config
Subject: Re: Re: Removing Macintosh related groups from the net.
Message-ID: <235@rosevax.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 7-Nov-85 09:01:57 EST
Article-I.D.: rosevax.235
Posted: Thu Nov  7 09:01:57 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 11-Nov-85 06:32:13 EST
References: <226@mplvax.UUCP> <6100@utzoo.UUCP>
Organization: Rosemount Inc., Eden Prairie, MN
Lines: 29


 Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology writes:
>> [net.sources.mac is highly relevant to my work, therefore...]
>> I have to strongly protest any attempt to limit mac.sources in any way until 
>> it can be shown that there are no other alternatives. ....
> 
> Have you considered mailing floppies as an alternative?  It's a LOT cheaper,
> and it means that the bills are paid by you rather than by others.  

Mailing floppies suffers from two relatively minor problems (possible physical
damage, including magnetic scrambling, and relatively long delays for non-first
class mail) and one MAJOR one as compared to electronic distribution: very
low connectivity.  Or am I supposed to buy 1000 floppies (at $3 minimum each)
and get a bulk mailing license?  This is the exact reason electronic mail
and computer bulletin boards are popular means for distributing personal-
computer public domain software.

>You are
> ignoring the fact that many of the sites paying the bills are *not* using
> the Macintosh in Unix-related work.  It sounds like interesting stuff, but
> why exactly should I pay for voluminous newsgroups related to it?

Oh, phoo.  NO sites are using net.(religion, movies, etc.) in their 
Unix-related work.  Why pick on a group that IS being used?

-- 
Andy Hogan   Rosemount, Inc.   Mpls MN
path: ...ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!mmm!rosevax!hogan
Working is not a synonym for Quality.

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.group,net.news.adm,net.news.config
Subject: Re: Removing Macintosh related groups from the net.
Message-ID: <6132@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 12-Nov-85 11:37:25 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6132
Posted: Tue Nov 12 11:37:25 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 12-Nov-85 11:37:25 EST
References: <226@mplvax.UUCP> <6100@utzoo.UUCP>, <706@amdimage.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 14

> ...  Sure, there are a lot of sites not using
> Macintoshes, (including mine), but there are also a lot of sites
> not interested in religion, sports, graphics, telecommunications, or
> dozens of other subjects which are supported by the network. Maybe
> I've missed something here, but I don't see why the Macintosh group
> should be singled out when there are a lot of other groups that
> I don't care about, but I'm paying bills to move them.

Because net.sources.mac is ten times the volume (hence cost) of any of
those other groups, if you ignore the "debate" groups that we don't get
any more anyway.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

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Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.news.group,net.news.adm,net.news.config
Subject: Re: Re: Removing Macintosh related groups from the net.
Message-ID: <6133@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 12-Nov-85 11:44:37 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.6133
Posted: Tue Nov 12 11:44:37 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 12-Nov-85 11:44:37 EST
References: <226@mplvax.UUCP> <6100@utzoo.UUCP>, <235@rosevax.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 26

> Mailing floppies suffers from ...
> one MAJOR [problem] as compared to electronic distribution: very
> low connectivity.  Or am I supposed to buy 1000 floppies (at $3 minimum each)
> and get a bulk mailing license?  This is the exact reason electronic mail
> and computer bulletin boards are popular means for distributing personal-
> computer public domain software.

Provided, of course, that you aren't paying for them.  1000 floppies at
$3 each is about three months of our phone bills.  Given an organized
mailing scheme, the floppies could be swapped around for years.  No, I am
not actually seriously suggesting this as an alternative to Usenet, just
pointing out that Usenet is a very expensive way to swap Macintosh software.
When was the last time you contributed money to your nearest backbone site's
phone bills?  If the answer is "never", then maybe you should start pricing
floppies just in case.

> ...NO sites are using net.(religion, movies, etc.) in their 
> Unix-related work.  Why pick on a group that IS being used?

Because I've already done some heavy picking on the other groups you mention.
Specifically, we don't get them any more.  Incidentally, have you noticed
just what fraction of net.sources.mac is actually useful material?  It's
not too high, by the looks of it.  High time net.sources.mac was moderated.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry