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Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!
mailrus!cornell!batcomputer!itsgw!steinmetz!uunet!hsi!stevens
From: stev...@hsi.UUCP (Richard Stevens)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP>
Date: 20 Sep 88 19:37:51 GMT
Organization: Health Systems Intl., New Haven, CT
Lines: 18

AT&T is now promoting their "Software Developer Conferences"
for System V, Release 4.0 (the merging of System V and SunOS).
The first one ended last week in New York, and from what I heard
on the net, was "sold out" ahead of time.  I really don't want to
take 3 days to attend one of these, unless the content is really good.
(I remember Microsoft and IBM doing this for many $$$ for OS/2
a year or so ago.)

Can someone who attended tell us if it was worthwhile ??
Is all of the information available elsewhere, so we don't have
to sit at a conference for 3 days to find out what'll change,
or are they trying to "coerce" you to attend just to find out
what's going on ??

	Richard Stevens
	Health Systems International, New Haven, CT
	   stev...@hsi.uu.net
           ... { uunet | yale } ! hsi ! stevens

Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 88 17:37:45 GMT

In article <1...@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> stev...@hsi.UUCP (Richard Stevens) writes:
>Can someone who attended tell us if it was worthwhile ??

A friend who attended said it was horrifying, actually...
-- 
NASA is into artificial        |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
stupidity.  - Jerry Pournelle  | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry he...@zoo.toronto.edu

Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!
cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!gatech!uflorida!haven!ncifcrf!nlm-mcs!adm!smoke!gwyn
From: g...@smoke.ARPA (Doug Gwyn )
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <8570@smoke.ARPA>
Date: 23 Sep 88 22:00:36 GMT
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp>
Reply-To: g...@brl.arpa (Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) <gwyn>)
Organization: Ballistic Research Lab (BRL), APG, MD.
Lines: 4

In article <1988Sep22.173745.14...@utzoo.uucp> he...@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) 
writes:
>A friend who attended said it was horrifying, actually...

Come on, Henry, how about some INFORMATION.

Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA>
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 88 21:32:23 GMT

In article <8...@smoke.ARPA> g...@brl.arpa (Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) <gwyn>) writes:
>>A friend who attended said it was horrifying, actually...
>
>Come on, Henry, how about some INFORMATION.

Herewith roughly what my friend told me.  Note, this is him talking (more
or less, I did the typing based on my notes from a phone call to him -- he's
hard to reach by mail), not me.  I take no responsibility for errors! :-)

---------
The biggest problem is "filling in the gap rather than narrowing it".
"Why do you want both NFS and RFS?"  Many people saw this as pointless
duplication of effort, leading to unnecessary complexity and all the
problems that brings.

Details on licensing were scarce.  Worse, direct questions on the subject
were evaded rather than answered.

There is no agreement between AT&T and Sun to avoid divergence of the
two systems *after* SVR4.  This horrified everyone.  "Then what's the
point of all this?!?"

The kernels will be very big, probably needing a 16MB machine just to get
started.  Nobody liked the sound of that.

Administration will be a nightmare, especially with two different network
filesystems and all the permission complications that implies.  What are
the semantics and implications of symbolic links in such an environment?

Training people to use and administer such a complex system will be
lengthy and difficult.

There was inadequate detail on the commands that will be part of the
standard environment.

ABI implies that a conforming machine must have kernel support for both 
NeWS *and* X.  This is ridiculous for people who plan to run neither.

The over-friendly system-administration interface isolates even the
knowledgeable administrator from what is really happening underneath.
This is fine IF IT WORKS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.  People with experience
with things like 3Bs know damn well that it doesn't, at least not as
normally supplied by AT&T.  And when it doesn't work, you're up the creek,
since the internals are not documented.  Troubleshooting one's own
problems is impossible.

In general, overall, the system is not getting simpler or cleaner.  Quite
the contrary:  it is getting bloated, complex, and slow.  It will be
difficult and expensive to run, support, and learn.

As for the presentation, it was good but not great.  The level of detail
was inconsistent and often ridiculously low for software developers.
"Two hours one morning when we learned nothing whatsoever."  "Much more
technical content could have been provided in the same length of time."
People did *not* like the way some questions, e.g. licensing, were evaded
rather than answered; even an honest "I don't know" (which is what the
real software people normally said in that situation) is better.
---------
-- 
NASA is into artificial        |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
stupidity.  - Jerry Pournelle  | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry he...@zoo.toronto.edu

Path: utzoo!utgpu!attcan!uunet!super!udel!princeton!njin!rutgers!orstcs!
bionette!kramer
From: kra...@bionette.CS.ORST.EDU (Jack Kramer - CMBL)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <6638@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU>
Date: 27 Sep 88 14:43:03 GMT
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp>
Sender: u...@super.ORG
Reply-To: kra...@bionette.UUCP (Jack Kramer - CMBL)
Organization: Oregon State University - CGRB
Lines: 3

I would like to continue reading this group but all the clutter takes
up too much time.  Is there any way to filter out messages from
particular persons such as Henry Spencer.

Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!rutgers!mailrus!uwmcsd1!marque!
uunet!steinmetz!davidsen
From: david...@steinmetz.ge.com (William E. Davidsen Jr)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <12248@steinmetz.ge.com>
Date: 27 Sep 88 17:53:50 GMT
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp>
Reply-To: david...@crdos1.UUCP (bill davidsen)
Organization: General Electric CRD, Schenectady, NY
Lines: 50


  I'd like to post a few comments on the ATT V.4 conferences. I haven't
been yet, but have a few general comments.

In article <1988Sep26.213223....@utzoo.uucp> he...@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) 
writes:

| The kernels will be very big, probably needing a 16MB machine just to get
| started.  Nobody liked the sound of that.

  A Sun rep told me that it would run on our 4MB Sun/3 and 386i
machines. He didn't know or wouldn't say about the Sun/2.

| Training people to use and administer such a complex system will be
| lengthy and difficult.

  I really doubt that the user will know or care what the kernel does.
Certainly most of our users don't care if a file is local or NFS
mounted.

| There was inadequate detail on the commands that will be part of the
| standard environment.

  I heard the same thing.

| ABI implies that a conforming machine must have kernel support for both 
| NeWS *and* X.  This is ridiculous for people who plan to run neither.

  I would expect most if not all of that to be in device drivers. ABI
doesn't imply that all machine have all possible devices, as far as I
can see. Programs from identical version of V.3 won't port if the needed
hardware isn't supported.

| The over-friendly system-administration interface isolates even the
| knowledgeable administrator from what is really happening underneath.

  ATT seems to have gone from "having to know all the nuts and bolts" to
making them inaccessible.

| In general, overall, the system is not getting simpler or cleaner.  Quite
| the contrary:  it is getting bloated, complex, and slow.  It will be
| difficult and expensive to run, support, and learn.

  It's not getting smaller, for sure. If the extra features are added in
a modular fashion I would expect that it would be cleaner.

Disclamer: I've identified the fact, comments, and opinions pretty clearly.
-- 
	bill davidsen		(w...@ge-crd.arpa)
  {uunet | philabs}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen
"Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me

Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!husc6!uwvax!oddjob!mimsy!chris
From: ch...@mimsy.UUCP (Chris Torek)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <13768@mimsy.UUCP>
Date: 28 Sep 88 08:54:49 GMT
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<12248@steinmetz.ge.com>
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Lines: 12

In article <12...@steinmetz.ge.com> david...@steinmetz.ge.com
(William E. Davidsen Jr) writes:
>A Sun rep told me that [the merged Sun/SysV system] would run on our
>4MB Sun/3 and 386i machines.

Sun will also tell you that SunOS 3.x runs on a 1MB Sun 2.  It does
---but it pages so much that it takes several tens of seconds to move
windows!  (Even a 4 MB Sun 3 running 3.2 or 3.5 is short on physical
memory.)
-- 
In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7163)
Domain:	ch...@mimsy.umd.edu	Path:	uunet!mimsy!chris

Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!
mailrus!nrl-cmf!cmcl2!phri!marob!daveh
From: da...@marob.MASA.COM (Dave Hammond)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <424@marob.MASA.COM>
Date: 29 Sep 88 14:33:09 GMT
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp> <6638@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU>
Reply-To: da...@marob.masa.com (Dave Hammond)
Organization: ESCC  New York City
Lines: 27

In article <6...@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> kra...@bionette.UUCP (Jack Kramer - CMBL) 
writes:
>I would like to continue reading this group but all the clutter takes
>up too much time.  Is there any way to filter out messages from
>particular persons such as Henry Spencer.

Since you haven't indicated that the above is intended as humor, I
feel bound to inform you that Henry Spencer is one of the most
knowledgeable and respected Unix community members.  His contributions
of software and sage council are (Unix) world reknown and take a back seat
to precious few others.

I, for one, hope that Henry keeps providing Usenet with the same high
quality contributions that he always has in the past.

If you truly feel Henry's words are a waste of _your_ time, I suggest
you read up on how to add him to your news `kills' file.  However, in
my opinion you would be doing yourself a great disservice by doing so.

BTW, I am not a Henry Spencer groupie.  I simply appreciate the good
advice that he and the dozens of other unix.wizards regulars dispense.
I have learned more about Unix from reading Usenet than any other source in
the past few years.

Dave Hammond
  UUCP: uunet!masa.com!{marob|dsix2}!daveh
DOMAIN: da...@marob.masa.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <1988Sep29.173254.26081@utzoo.uucp>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 88 17:32:54 GMT

I should add some clarifications on some of the things I posted; some
conversations with Sun people have led to some extra illumination.

>The kernels will be very big, probably needing a 16MB machine just to get
>started.  Nobody liked the sound of that.

This appears to have been somewhat exaggerated, but you will need 4MB, and
one wonders how good performance will be in 4 (given that existing recent
Sun releases don't exactly sparkle in 4).

>Training people to use and administer such a complex system will be
>lengthy and difficult.

People have misunderstood this to mean "training every user".  Individual
users don't have to understand the whole mess.  Unfortunately, a competent
system administrator or systems programmer *does*, and that's the real
problem area.  (The sysadmin needs to know about it all to make sure that
he isn't doing something that will have unexpected consequences; the systems
programmer needs to know what tools he's got to work with.)

>ABI implies that a conforming machine must have kernel support for both 
>NeWS *and* X.  This is ridiculous for people who plan to run neither.

I'm told that there is no particular kernel support needed, but the
relevant libraries must be present even if the machine runs no windowing
at all.  The reason is to be sure that people on that machine can use
windowing facilities on other machines, if present.
-- 
The meek can have the Earth;    |    Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
the rest of us have other plans.|uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry he...@zoo.toronto.edu

Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!seismo!sundc!pitstop!sun!amdcad!ames!mailrus!
purdue!decwrl!labrea!polya!shap
From: s...@polya.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan S. Shapiro)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Summary: SVR4 size debunked
Keywords: bloat, vms, SXID
Message-ID: <4194@polya.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 30 Sep 88 18:51:15 GMT
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp> <862@yunexus.UUCP>
Reply-To: s...@polya.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan S. Shapiro)
Organization: Stanford University
Lines: 5

No way SVR4 will require 16M.  I have seen it running on reasonably
configured machines.

Jon Shapiro
AT&T Bell Laboratories

Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!husc6!mailrus!ames!pacbell!rtech!gonzo!daveb
From: da...@gonzo.UUCP (Dave Brower)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <433@gonzo.UUCP>
Date: 1 Oct 88 08:15:21 GMT
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp> <6638@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> 
<424@marob.MASA.COM>
Reply-To: da...@gonzo.UUCP (Dave Brower)
Organization: Gonzo Media Group
Lines: 12

In <6...@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> kra...@bionette.UUCP (Jack Kramer - CMBL) writes:
>>I would like to continue reading this group but all the clutter takes
>>up too much time.  Is there any way to filter out messages from
>>particular persons such as Henry Spencer.

Though the pounding has started already, consider the possiblity he
means a "positive" filter as opposed to a kill-file style negative
filter.  That is, he *only* wants to read articles from Henry or Chris
or Doug or dmr.  At least, that's what I thought he meant.  I've wanted
one too...

-dB

Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!
ukma!mailrus!ames!elroy!jpl-devvax!lwall
From: lw...@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Larry Wall)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <2983@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>
Date: 4 Oct 88 01:49:14 GMT
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp> <6638@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> 
<424@marob.MASA.COM> <433@gonzo.UUCP>
Reply-To: lw...@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Larry Wall)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA.
Lines: 20

In article <4...@gonzo.UUCP> da...@gonzo.UUCP (Dave Brower) writes:
: In <6...@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> kra...@bionette.UUCP (Jack Kramer - CMBL) writes:
: >>I would like to continue reading this group but all the clutter takes
: >>up too much time.  Is there any way to filter out messages from
: >>particular persons such as Henry Spencer.
: 
: Though the pounding has started already, consider the possiblity he
: means a "positive" filter as opposed to a kill-file style negative
: filter.  That is, he *only* wants to read articles from Henry or Chris
: or Doug or dmr.  At least, that's what I thought he meant.  I've wanted
: one too...

Add something like the following line to your kill file:

/^/%(%f!=henry@utzoo|chris@mimsy?j)

If that doesn't work, it ought to.

Larry Wall
lw...@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov

Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!
mailrus!purdue!bu-cs!encore!bzs@xenna
From: bzs@xenna (Barry Shein)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <3819@encore.UUCP>
Date: 6 Oct 88 03:12:08 GMT
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp> <6638@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> 
<424@marob.MASA.COM>
Sender: n...@encore.UUCP
Reply-To: bzs@xenna (Barry Shein)
Organization: Encore Computer Corp
Lines: 12
In-reply-to: daveh@marob.MASA.COM (Dave Hammond)

>BTW, I am not a Henry Spencer groupie.  I simply appreciate the good
>advice that he and the dozens of other unix.wizards regulars dispense.
>I have learned more about Unix from reading Usenet than any other source in
>the past few years.
>
>Dave Hammond

Gee, I'm a Henry Spencer groupie!

Any more of that plaster left?

	-Barry Shein, ||Encore||

Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <1988Oct7.210433.24573@utzoo.uucp>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp> <6638@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> 
<424@marob.MASA.COM> <3819@encore.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 88 21:04:33 GMT

In article <3...@encore.UUCP> bzs@xenna (Barry Shein) writes:
>Gee, I'm a Henry Spencer groupie!

Um, Barry, old buddy, I hate to mention this, but the specifications for
Henry Spencer groupies call for them to be young, female, and attractive,
and you don't meet any of those criteria...  :-) :-)
-- 
The meek can have the Earth;    |    Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
the rest of us have other plans.|uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry he...@zoo.toronto.edu

Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!convex!killer!vector!rpp386!jfh
From: j...@rpp386.Dallas.TX.US (The Beach Bum)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <7835@rpp386.Dallas.TX.US>
Date: 13 Oct 88 18:25:35 GMT
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp> <6638@orstcs.CS.OR
Reply-To: j...@rpp386.Dallas.TX.US (The Beach Bum)
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Dallas TX
Lines: 22

In article <1988Oct7.210433.24...@utzoo.uucp> he...@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) 
writes:
>In article <3...@encore.UUCP> bzs@xenna (Barry Shein) writes:
>>Gee, I'm a Henry Spencer groupie!
>
>Um, Barry, old buddy, I hate to mention this, but the specifications for
>Henry Spencer groupies call for them to be young, female, and attractive,
>and you don't meet any of those criteria...  :-) :-)

Um, Henry, wouldn't those be the specifications for a Henry Spencer GROPEE?

A GROUPIE is a fan, a GROPEE is someone who is GROPED.  One could presume you
to be the GROPER, as opposed to the GROUPER, which is a fish ...

And as for the .signature-of-the-month, the correct quote is

	"The meek shall inherit the Earth ...
		... their the only ones who'll take it"
-- 
John F. Haugh II (j...@rpp386.Dallas.TX.US)                   HASA, "S" Division

      "Why waste negative entropy on comments, when you could use the same
                   entropy to create bugs instead?" -- Steve Elias

Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards
Path: utzoo!henry
From: he...@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: System V Release 4.0 Developer Conferences
Message-ID: <1988Oct21.182747.17988@utzoo.uucp>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
References: <167@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> <1988Sep22.173745.14647@utzoo.uucp> 
<8570@smoke.ARPA> <1988Sep26.213223.407@utzoo.uucp> <6638@orstcs.CS.OR 
<7835@rpp386.Dallas.TX.US>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 88 18:27:47 GMT

In article <7...@rpp386.Dallas.TX.US> j...@rpp386.Dallas.TX.US (The Beach Bum) writes:
>>... the specifications for
>>Henry Spencer groupies call for them to be young, female, and attractive...
>
>Um, Henry, wouldn't those be the specifications for a Henry Spencer GROPEE?
>A GROUPIE is a fan, a GROPEE is someone who is GROPED...

No, the specifications just reflect a desire that groupies be pleasing to
the male eye (specifically, to mine).  I mean, Barry Shein is a nice guy,
and useful to have around when technical problems strike, but I'm afraid
he's not what I'd pick to decorate my office with!  :-)

The specifications for gropees are somewhat more exacting... :-) :-)
-- 
The meek can have the Earth;    |    Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
the rest of us have other plans.|uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry he...@zoo.toronto.edu