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Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ibmpa!ericm
From: ericm@ibmpa
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix,comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt
Subject: Risc System/6000
Summary: product announcement
Message-ID: <4115@ibmpa.UUCP>
Date: 16 Feb 90 02:37:11 GMT
Sender: n...@ibmpa.UUCP
Reply-To: er...@ibmsupt.UUCP (Eric Murray)
Followup-To: comp.unix.aix
Organization: IBM AWD, Palo Alto
Lines: 177
Posted: Fri Feb 16 03:37:11 1990


ok, here's the offical product announcement...
this'll give y'all more things to speculate on.






---------------cut here---------------






HIGH-PERFORMANCE RISC WORKSTATION FAMILY ANNOUNCED

IBM today announced the RISC System/6000* family -- a series of nine
high-performance workstations and servers that offer customers on the
leading edge of technology the power and solutions they are seeking
for computing's most advanced, sophisticated challenges.

Based on IBM's new POWER (Performance Optimization With Enhanced
RISC) Architecture, the family includes the industry's highest desktop
workstation performance at more than 27 million instructions per second
(MIPS) and 7 million floating-point operations per second (MFLOPS).
With complete system prices starting at $12,995, it also offers
industry-leading price/performance.

The nine POWERstations and POWERservers -- with top performance of
41 MIPS and 13 MFLOPS -- are designed to work in heterogeneous, open
systems networks with workstations from IBM and other manufacturers.
They will be supported by hundreds of third-party applications and
backed by IBM's service and support network.

This performance is supported by an aggressive software developer
program to aid software developers in porting their products to the
new family.  To date, this program has resulted in commitments to port
more than 600 applications worldwide in areas ranging from mechanical
and electrical design to structural mechanics and computer-aided
software engineering.

"The RISC System/6000 family brings unprecedented power to the desks
of scientists, engineers, designers and other professionals," said
George H. Conrades, IBM senior vice president and general manager, US
Marketing & Services.  "It enables our customers to do more, whether
their POWERstations are operating on their own, interconnected with a
mainframe or sharing the resources of a distributed computing
environment.  Today, we are joined by hundreds of IBM Business Partners
and software developers in offering our customers the industry's most
advanced workstation solution."

The four-member POWERstation family and the five POWERservers
feature a high-performance implementation of IBM's Micro Channel bus
architecture, and are designed to exploit a new version of AIX --
IBM's implementation of the UNIX operating system -- also announced
today.  The family is complemented by the new Xstation 120, a very
low-priced X server terminal, giving users concurrent access to a
variety of applications.

The RISC System/6000 family achieves its premium performance with
three major technical advances:  a new superscalar processor capable
of executing multiple instructions in a single cycle; the industry's
most advanced RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computer) floating-point
processor for numeric-intensive applications, such as quantitative
analysis, and optimized 3-D graphics capabilities for such complex
applications as visualization and mapping.

"The RISC System/6000 family is the latest example of our continuing
drive to bring the benefits of advancing technology to our customers,"
said IBM President Jack D. Kuehler.  "Today's announcement
demonstrates our continuing commitment to open systems and industry
standards, and our determination to become a leader in the workstation
and open systems environment."

RISC System/6000 Family

The family begins with the RISC System/6000 POWERstation 320, the most
powerful desktop workstation available.  It has a rated performance of
27.5 MIPS and 7.4 MFLOPS, with a complete system starting at $12,995.
The POWER Architecture and advanced IBM CMOS microprocessor design
combine to achieve this exceptional level of performance.

The workstation family also includes the deskside POWERstations 520
and 530, offering greater memory and disk storage capacity.  These
systems provide performance of up to 34.5 MIPS and 10.9 MFLOPS.

The POWERstation 730, with an integrated Supergraphics Processor
Subsystem, is a deskside unit that combines extensive high-function,
3-D graphics with a high-performance superscalar RISC workstation.
Its capabilities include a shading processor for solid modeling and
other 3-D engineering designs.

The RISC System/6000 family is especially rich in graphics capability.
Four new graphics adapters range from grayscale to high-function 3-D,
allowing customers to implement solutions ranging from desktop
publishing to mechanical design to 3-D animated visualization of
scientific phenomena.

The RISC System/6000 family also includes five high-performance
servers with prices starting at $20,375.  The POWERservers 320, 520,
530, 540 and 930 can be configured either as LAN-attached servers
for multiple users -- compute server or file server -- or as
multi-user systems using ASCII terminals or Xstation 120s.  These
systems offer performance of up to 41 MIPS and 13 MFLOPS.  The MFLOPS
rating is several times faster than other servers in this price class.

New AIX Version

AIX Version 3 for RISC System/6000 is an outstanding UNIX operating
environment and software development platform.  While conforming to
open software standards, it includes many new and improved features,
such as physical disk space management, advanced file system and

program management facilities, extended realtime support and enhanced
virtual memory.

The new UNIX implementation will provide a windowed hypertext
retrieval system that offers a versatile and innovative approach to
providing customers with access to online publications and help
information.  Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc
(CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a
network POWERserver.

User Interfaces

IBM announced industry-leading graphical user interfaces: AIXwindows
Environment/6000, based on the OSF/Motif graphical user interface
from the Open Software Foundation; and AIX NextStep Environment/6000,
based on the innovative NextStep environment from NeXT Inc.
AIXwindows Environment/6000 and AIX NextStep Environment/6000 will be
available as separate licensed programs.  Customers can choose the
interface most applicable to their environments.

Service and Support

Each POWERstation and POWERserver will be backed by IBM service and
support.  IBM announced a one-year warranty that includes 24-hour,
seven-day-a-week availability of hardware service.  Full software
service is included in the license charge.

In addition, IBM has significantly increased its number of skilled
systems engineers to assist customers in the design, configuration,
installation and support of the RISC System/6000 family.

IBM also announced SystemXtra for the RISC System/6000 family, a fee
service offering that provides a total service solution after system
installation.  It includes a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week telephone hot
line for hardware and software problems and usage assistance, in
addition to onsite installation of software maintenance.

A number of IBM manufacturing and development sites were involved in
today's announcement, including:  Austin, Texas; Basingstoke, United
Kingdom; Boca Raton, Florida; Bordeaux, France; Burlington, Vermont;
Charlotte, North Carolina; East Fishkill, New York; Endicott, New York;
Essonnes, France; Fujisawa, Japan; Haifa, Israel; Havant, United
Kingdom; Hursley, United Kingdom; Kingston, New York; Lexington,
Kentucky; Manassas, Virginia; North Harbour, United Kingdom;
Poughkeepsie, New York; Raleigh, North Carolina; Rochester, Minnesota;
San Jose, California; Santa Palomba, Italy; Sindelfingen, West Germany;
Toronto, Canada; Vimercate, Italy; Yamato, Japan and Yorktown, New York.

*Trademarks:  RISC System/6000 is a trademark of International
              Business Machines Corporation.





---------------cut here---------------




 eric murray      ibmsupt!er...@uunet.uu.net       {ucbvax,uunet}!ibmsupt!ericm 
                     KILL YOUR TELEVISION!

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!hoptoad!gnu
From: g...@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix,comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <10307@hoptoad.uucp>
Date: 19 Feb 90 06:41:26 GMT
References: <4115@ibmpa.UUCP>
Organization: Grasshopper Group in San Francisco
Lines: 52
Posted: Mon Feb 19 07:41:26 1990

>    . . . POWERstations and POWERservers . . .

I like the way they adopted the Sun Marketing naming convention
(SPARCstations and SPARCservers).

>                          . . . a complete system starting at $12,995.

Including OS and window system?  Manuals?  Ethernet?  Compilers?  In
the original RT/PC announcement a few years ago, the lowball price
didn't even include a keyboard or monitor, which cost $thousands!  One
analysis showed that if Sun had charged as much for Unix as IBM, they
could've thrown in the workstation for free!

Also, one breakdown I saw was that this system only has four slots --
and all of them are in use.  No expandability.

>               Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc
> (CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a
> network POWERserver.

At extra cost

> IBM announced industry-leading graphical user interfaces . . .
> available as separate licensed programs.  Customers can choose the
> interface most applicable to their environments.

At extra cost

>           IBM announced a one-year warranty that includes 24-hour,
> seven-day-a-week availability of hardware service.  Full software
> service is included in the license charge.

License charge?  For a warranty?  Oh, I get it!  If you buy the Unix
from them, you are forced to buy full software support for it!  Well,
no problem, I'm sure there are lots of third party vendors selling Unix
for the RIOS...

> In addition, IBM has significantly increased its number of skilled
> systems engineers to assist customers in the design, configuration,
> installation and support of the RISC System/6000 family.

I heard from a usually reliable source that there are TWO people
in the Bay Area who are trained to configure and repair these machines.
That's a "significant increase" from last year, when there were NONE!

> IBM also announced SystemXtra for the RISC System/6000 family, a fee
> service . . . . . . . . . . . .  total service solution . . .

At extra cost.
-- 
John Gilmore      {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid}!hoptoad!gnu      g...@toad.com
Just say *yes* to drugs.  If someone offers you a drug war, just say no.

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!aplcen!haven!ncifcrf!adam
From: a...@ncifcrf.gov (Adam W. Feigin)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix,comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <1514@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov>
Date: 19 Feb 90 13:39:06 GMT
References: <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <10307@hoptoad.uucp>
Reply-To: a...@fcs260c.UUCP (Adam W. Feigin)
Organization: Pixel Pushers of America
Lines: 55
Posted: Mon Feb 19 14:39:06 1990

In article <10...@hoptoad.uucp> g...@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes:
>>    . . . POWERstations and POWERservers . . .
>
>I like the way they adopted the Sun Marketing naming convention
>(SPARCstations and SPARCservers).

Well, since they licensed the graphics technology from SGI, and they
call their machines the "POWER Series" and IBM is going after Sun and
their SPARCstations/servers, its natural that IBM should call their
machines in this manner.

>
>>                          . . . a complete system starting at $12,995.
>
>Including OS and window system?  Manuals?  Ethernet?  Compilers?  In
>the original RT/PC announcement a few years ago, the lowball price
>didn't even include a keyboard or monitor, which cost $thousands!  One
>analysis showed that if Sun had charged as much for Unix as IBM, they
>could've thrown in the workstation for free!

Correct. The base price does NOT include OS & Window system or
ethernet (I assume that you get manuals & compilers with the OS, but I
could be wrong, and I certainly wouldn't put it past IBM NOT to
include them, and charge extra for them, as they have a nasty habit of
doing). I did notice that in the glossy that the 3-button mouse and
keyboard are marked as "optional products".. Nice, very nice, looks
like IBM is up to their old tricks again. They never learn, do they ??

(BTW the price sheet I have show the OS + X-Window System at $2000)

>Also, one breakdown I saw was that this system only has four slots --
>and all of them are in use.  No expandability.

I'm not sure about this, but the base system comes with a 120MB
DBA ("Direct Bus Attached" -- whatever that means) disk; I dont know
if you need a slot for a controller, but if you want to add more disk,
you gotta buy a controller. Lets not forget a slot for ethernet
(optional), a slot for graphics (you really dont want to see anything,
do you ??, you can just watch the blinkin' lights...)

>>               Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc
>> (CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a
>> network POWERserver.
>
>At extra cost

Of course !!

It will be a cold day in hell when the temperature is below freezing
when IBM gets serious about the Unix/Workstation market.

-- 
Internet: a...@ncifcrf.gov			Adam W. Feigin
UUCP: {backbonz}!ncifcrf!adam		    Senior Systems Manager
Mail: P.O. Box B, Bldg 430	National Cancer Institute-Supercomputer Center
      Frederick, MD 21701		Frederick Cancer Research Facility

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rice!brazos.rice.edu!schafer
From: scha...@brazos.rice.edu (Richard A. Schafer)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix,comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <5098@brazos.Rice.edu>
Date: 19 Feb 90 17:14:33 GMT
References: <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP>
Sender: r...@rice.edu
Reply-To: scha...@brazos.rice.edu (Richard A. Schafer)
Followup-To: comp.unix.aix
Organization: Rice University
Lines: 120
Posted: Mon Feb 19 18:14:33 1990

In article <10...@hoptoad.uucp>, g...@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes:
> >    . . . POWERstations and POWERservers . . .
> 
> I like the way they adopted the Sun Marketing naming convention
> (SPARCstations and SPARCservers).
> 
> >                          . . . a complete system starting at $12,995.
> 
> Including OS and window system?  Manuals?  Ethernet?  Compilers?  In
> the original RT/PC announcement a few years ago, the lowball price
> didn't even include a keyboard or monitor, which cost $thousands!  One
> analysis showed that if Sun had charged as much for Unix as IBM, they
> could've thrown in the workstation for free!
I just signed on IBMLINK and ran a configuration on the standard grayscale
configuration.  I don't come up with the $12,995 price, but did produce the
following configuration:

Powerstation 320   $7475
120MB disk         $1950
Grayscale adapter  $1395
keyboard           $ 255
mouse              $ 130
mono display       $1295
                   ------ Hardware total, $12,500
AIX 3.0            $1250
AIX Xwindows       $ 500
                   ------ Software total, $ 1,750
                          Package total,  $14,250
 
> Also, one breakdown I saw was that this system only has four slots --
> and all of them are in use.  No expandability.
The system described above has 3 slots still available.
 
> >               Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc
> > (CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a
> > network POWERserver.
> 
> At extra cost
Or in the traditional hard-copy form for no additional cost.
 
> > IBM announced industry-leading graphical user interfaces . . .
> > available as separate licensed programs.  Customers can choose the
> > interface most applicable to their environments.
> 
> At extra cost
Yep, since they allow you to choose Ethernet or Token-Ring adapters, 
these are optional items.  In addition, you can configure the machine
as an asynch timesharing machine, which a host of asynch adapters.  So
I don't think it's unreasonable to do it this way.
> 
> >           IBM announced a one-year warranty that includes 24-hour,
> > seven-day-a-week availability of hardware service.  Full software
> > service is included in the license charge.
> 
> License charge?  For a warranty?  Oh, I get it!  If you buy the Unix
> from them, you are forced to buy full software support for it!  Well,
> no problem, I'm sure there are lots of third party vendors selling Unix
> for the RIOS...
Excuse me?  You're objecting to having software support included as part
of the $1,250 purchase price for AIX?  Given what I remember about
SUN pricing, software support included in a $1,250 purchase price for
AIX doesn't sound too bad to me.
> 
> > In addition, IBM has significantly increased its number of skilled
> > systems engineers to assist customers in the design, configuration,
> > installation and support of the RISC System/6000 family.
> 
> I heard from a usually reliable source that there are TWO people
> in the Bay Area who are trained to configure and repair these machines.
> That's a "significant increase" from last year, when there were NONE!
> 
> > IBM also announced SystemXtra for the RISC System/6000 family, a fee
> > service . . . . . . . . . . . .  total service solution . . .
> 
> At extra cost.
Yep, and considering what SystemXtra is, they'd be crazy to give it away.
SystemXtra is essentially a "we do all the hardware and software maintenance
for you, answer end-user questions, etc." arrangement.  While I have
no interest in it, if I wanted that kind of hand-holding, I'd sure be
prepared to pay for it.

> -- 
> John Gilmore      {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid}!hoptoad!gnu      g...@toad.com
> Just say *yes* to drugs.  If someone offers you a drug war, just say no.
I just ran a slightly different configuration, getting a non-standard
package with an Ethernet adapter and the CD-ROM player thrown in.  Here's 
what you get:

Powerstation 320   $7475
120MB disk         $1950
grayscale adapter  $1395
scsi controller    $1200
ethernet adapter   $ 695
keyboard           $ 255
mouse              $ 130
CD-ROM drive       $1695
mono display       $1295
                   -----  Hardware total, $16,090

(this configuration leaves 1 slot available, having added the Ethernet
card and SCSI card to the previous configuration.)

AIX                $1250
CD-ROM hypertext   $ 115
AIXWindows         $ 500
                   -----  Software total, $1,865

(Interesting note: the standard shipment comes with the software
preloaded, and you do not get actual diskette copies unless you make 
them yourself.  You can purchase the "backup copy option" for the 
software listed above for an additional $400, which gets you diskette
copies sent with the shipment.)

                          Package total, $17,955

I still haven't found what they're including in the $12,995 price, but
presumably it's the hardware listed in the first configuration above,
plus something that costs $495. :-)

Richard

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ogicse!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
samsung!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!stingray!marc
From: marc@stingray..austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson/140000;1C-22)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Summary: Quick Pricer, Document G320-9881
Keywords: data
Message-ID: <1566@awdprime.UUCP>
Date: 20 Feb 90 00:43:06 GMT
References: <1514@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <10307@hoptoad.uucp> 
<5107@brazos.Rice.edu>
Sender: n...@awdprime.UUCP
Reply-To: m...@awdprime.austin.ibm.com.UUCP (Marc J. Stephenson)
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin, TX
Lines: 47
Posted: Tue Feb 20 01:43:06 1990

*********************  DISCLAIMER *************************
*   The following posting is done on my own to provide    *
*   a source of information for people interested in the  *
*   RISC System/6000.  Nothing that follows should be     *
*   considered a stance, statement, or position by IBM.   *
*   Contact your IBM representative to get an authorized  *
*   position.  I just work here.                          *
******************  End  of Disclaimer ********************

There has been some speculation and confusion in this newgroup about
what comes with a Risc System/6000 system.  Hopefully, that confusion
may be alleviated by an available document:

There is a document available from IBM called the 'Risc System/6000 Quick
Pricer' (document number G320-9881-0) which provides information on
the RISC System/6000 family and AIX Version 3 for RISC System/6000 
and US prices.  Requests for copies of that publication should be made
to your IBM Authorized Dealer or your IBM Marketing Representative.
The prices in the document are NOT to be used in lieu of those in
the Sales Manual, HONE Configurator, INFOLink, or announcement letters.

Anyway, the above-mentioned document contains unofficial prices, as
all the information is subject to change.  Now that that is laid out,
the Quick Pricer says that for a $12,995 POWERstation 320 Desktop Workstation
you get:
 
 (Under a heading which states that the configuration includes Ethernet,
  keyboard, 3-button mouse, AIX Version 3 for RISC System/6000 (1-2 user),
  and graphical user interface),
 1. POWERstation 320, 1280x1024 19" Mono Display, Grayscale Graphics
	   Display Adapter, 8 MB RAM, and 120 MB Disk

The graphical user interfaces mentioned in the document are AIXwindows
Environment/6000 and AIX NextStep Environment/6000.  I don't know if the
configuration would include your choice of these or what (call your IBM
rep).

No FORTRAN compiler is supplied with the base OS.  FORTRAN, COBOL, Pascal,
and Ada are listed in the back as separate items.

Hope this helps, but like I said, nothing I posted is official.  Yes,
I might be paranoid about it, but I want it to be perfectly clear.

Marc Stephenson (m...@stingray.austin.ibm.com)
Location: F57/992, (79)3-3796, ZIP 2401, 1C-22/992, Austin, Texas
Internal: m...@stingray.austin.ibm.com		VNET: MARC at AUSVM6
External: uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ibmaus!auschs!stingray.austin.ibm.com!marc

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!romp!auschs!awdprime!
woan.austin.ibm.com!ron
From: r...@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan/2100000)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix,comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Keywords: cheap system!
Message-ID: <1559@awdprime.UUCP>
Date: 19 Feb 90 20:47:10 GMT
References: <1514@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <10307@hoptoad.uucp>
Sender: n...@awdprime.UUCP
Reply-To: @cs.utexas.edu:ibmchs!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron
Followup-To: comp.unix.aix
Organization: IBM-Austin, AWD
Lines: 20
Posted: Mon Feb 19 21:47:10 1990

From the marketing announcement that I have, it looks like a base
workstation package will run $14,250+$695=$14945 for the base desktop
model with (8MB RAM, 120MB Hard Disk, Keyboard, Mouse, AIX3,
AIXwindows, NFS, 4-bit greyscale adapter, 19-inch monochrome monitor).
I assume that, as was with the RT, manuals and all such are included
with this. Oh yeah, one year warranty (not bad considering the 90day
standard) tossed in with all this.

Not a bad price, even so, considering 27.5 MIPS (peak 100) and
7.5MFLOPS. That works out to be $543.45/MIP system cost which is the
lowest in the industry, even among name brand 386/486 PCs, I believe.
Data General seems to be runnerup with their 88K based system. Remeber
IBM also offers the JMB and NeXtStep interfaces (additional charge,
but available).

+-----All Views Expressed Are My Own And Are Not Necessarily Shared By------+
+------------------------------My Employer----------------------------------+
+ Ronald S. Woan  (IBM VNET)WOAN AT AUSTIN, (AUSTIN)r...@woan.austin.ibm.com +
+ outside of IBM       @cs.utexas.edu:ibmchs!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron +
+ last resort                                        w...@peyote.cactus.org +

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!aplcen!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!romp!auschs!d75!
cello!toysrus!dcm
From: d...@toysrus.uucp (dcm)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix,comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Keywords: IBM bashing: alive & well
Message-ID: <3144@cello.UUCP>
Date: 19 Feb 90 19:37:54 GMT
References: <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <10307@hoptoad.uucp>
Sender: n...@cello.UUCP
Reply-To: d...@toysrus.austin.ibm.com.UUCP (dcm)
Followup-To: comp.unix.aix
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin, TX
Lines: 111
Posted: Mon Feb 19 20:37:54 1990

In article <10...@hoptoad.uucp> g...@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes:
>
>I like the way they adopted the Sun Marketing naming convention
>(SPARCstations and SPARCservers).

	Who knows?  Maybe someone at Sun heard about the new IBM
	machines and thought "what a great naming convention!" :-)

>>                          . . . a complete system starting at $12,995.
>
>Including OS and window system?  Manuals?  Ethernet?  Compilers?  In
>the original RT/PC announcement a few years ago, the lowball price
>didn't even include a keyboard or monitor, which cost $thousands!  One

	Have anyone seen a pricelist yet?  Does anyone know what
	the minimal configuration includes?  I don't...
	
	The nice thing about packaging is that it gives customers
	complete flexibility about what they get. The other option,
	which some computer manufacturers have taken advantage of,
	is to charge $X over the 'minimal configuration' and include
	the world, thereby forcing each and every customer to pay the
	$X regardless of what they want.  Which way is better?  Hell,
	I don't know.  I personally like the packaging.  As long as
	it's easy to get the packages I need and they're affordable,
	who needs *everything*?  Not every customer...

>analysis showed that if Sun had charged as much for Unix as IBM, they
>could've thrown in the workstation for free!

	Well, as everyone has pointed out, the RT was probably a flop.
	IBM is at least attempting to learn from their mistakes and do
	it better this time.  I can tell you they're serious about it.
	All we ever hear around here is "got to be better than the RT in
	every way".  I'm almost getting sick and tired of hearing it.
	It *is* a major consideration.

>Also, one breakdown I saw was that this system only has four slots --
>and all of them are in use.  No expandability.

	What are the four slots being used for in the configuration
	you saw?

>>               Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc
>> (CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a
>> network POWERserver.
>
>At extra cost

	I'm pretty sure they'll have on-line man pages too.  I don't
	think they'll force you to buy the CD-ROM to run 'man'.

>
>> IBM announced industry-leading graphical user interfaces . . .
>> available as separate licensed programs.  Customers can choose the
>> interface most applicable to their environments.
>
>At extra cost

	Well, at least the customer can *choose* their interface.
	They're not forced to pay for one(s) they don't want.

>
>>           IBM announced a one-year warranty that includes 24-hour,
>> seven-day-a-week availability of hardware service.  Full software
>> service is included in the license charge.
>
>License charge?  For a warranty?  Oh, I get it!  If you buy the Unix
>from them, you are forced to buy full software support for it!

	The way I read this paragraph is "the AIXV3 license charge will
	include full software service".  I'm not sure about the hardware
	service.  I imagine they'll do what everyone does:  offer a
	service contract.
 
>I heard from a usually reliable source that there are TWO people
>in the Bay Area who are trained to configure and repair these machines.
>That's a "significant increase" from last year, when there were NONE!

	Then again, the RS/6000 isn't being released in volume yet.  Give
	them a chance to get service people in place around the country.
	They're smart enough to know that service is very important.
	Possibly important enough to make or break the product.

>> IBM also announced SystemXtra for the RISC System/6000 family, a fee
>> service . . . . . . . . . . . .  total service solution . . .
>
>At extra cost.

	Don't most computer manufacturers offer a service program at a
	cost?  Or are they all free?

>John Gilmore      {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid}!hoptoad!gnu      g...@toad.com


	My point was not to stick up for IBM (or bash John).  At this point,
	I have nothing to gain from the success/failure of the RS/6000.
	I think we should wait and see how it turns out.  Maybe IBM did
	learn something from the RT experience.  Maybe not.  If it flops,
	then bash all you want.  I'll join you!
	
	But at least give them a chance...

		Craig Miller

p.s.	obviously, I'm not a spokesman for IBM.  Anything I said is IMHO.
--------
	Craig Miller
	contractor @ IBM Austin
	UUCP: ..!cs.utexas.edu!ibmaus!auschs!toysrus.austin.ibm.com!dcm
	"I don't believe in .signatures."

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!aplcen!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!romp!auschs!d75!cello!
toysrus!dcm
From: d...@toysrus.uucp (dcm)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix,comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <3145@cello.UUCP>
Date: 19 Feb 90 19:55:45 GMT
References: <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <1514@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov>
Sender: n...@cello.UUCP
Reply-To: d...@toysrus.austin.ibm.com.UUCP (dcm)
Followup-To: comp.unix.aix
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin, TX
Lines: 21
Posted: Mon Feb 19 20:55:45 1990

In article <1...@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov> a...@fcs260c.UUCP (Adam W. Feigin) writes:
>
>It will be a cold day in hell when the temperature is below freezing
>when IBM gets serious about the Unix/Workstation market.

	Do you have any idea how many $$ they've spent on this one?
	How many people?  How much time?  Where you ever associated
	with this project?  Anyone who was associated will tell you
	the same thing:  they're *very* serious about this one.  They
	really do want to do it right this time.

	IBM recognizes this will change their future, succeed or fail.

		Craig

p.s.	I'm not a IBM spokesman.  I speak only for myself.
--------
	Craig Miller
	contractor @ IBM Austin
	UUCP: ..!cs.utexas.edu!ibmaus!auschs!toysrus.austin.ibm.com!dcm
	"I don't believe in .signatures."

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!romp!auschs!awdprime!
woan.austin.ibm.com!ron
From: r...@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan/2100000)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Keywords: cheap system!
Message-ID: <1562@awdprime.UUCP>
Date: 19 Feb 90 22:36:53 GMT
References: <1559@awdprime.UUCP> <1514@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> 
<10307@hoptoad.uucp>
Sender: n...@awdprime.UUCP
Reply-To: @cs.utexas.edu:ibmchs!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron
Organization: IBM-Austin, AWD
Lines: 17
Posted: Mon Feb 19 23:36:53 1990

In article <1...@awdprime.UUCP>, r...@woan.austin.ibm.com (R
Woan/2100000) writes:
|>From the marketing announcement that I have, it looks like a base
|>workstation package will run $14,250+$695=$14945 for the base desktop
|>model with (8MB RAM, 120MB Hard Disk, Keyboard, Mouse, AIX3,
|>AIXwindows, NFS, 4-bit greyscale adapter, 19-inch monochrome monitor).

Whoops, I forget to mention that the $695 is for the Ethernet card. By
the way this leaves two slots free on the micro-channel bus.

						Ron

+-----All Views Expressed Are My Own And Are Not Necessarily Shared By------+
+------------------------------My Employer----------------------------------+
+ Ronald S. Woan  (IBM VNET)WOAN AT AUSTIN, (AUSTIN)r...@woan.austin.ibm.com +
+ outside of IBM       @cs.utexas.edu:ibmchs!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron +
+ last resort                                        w...@peyote.cactus.org +

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!dino!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!samsung!
cs.utexas.edu!jason
From: ja...@cs.utexas.edu (Jason Martin Levitt)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Summary: Let's get real on disks!
Keywords: DISK SPACE.
Message-ID: <1148@gort.cs.utexas.edu>
Date: 20 Feb 90 00:00:03 GMT
References: <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <5098@brazos.Rice.edu>
Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas
Lines: 36
Posted: Tue Feb 20 01:00:03 1990

In article <5...@brazos.Rice.edu> scha...@brazos.rice.edu (Richard A. Schafer) 
writes:
>I just signed on IBMLINK and ran a configuration on the standard grayscale
>configuration.  I don't come up with the $12,995 price, but did produce the
>following configuration:
>
>Powerstation 320   $7475
>120MB disk         $1950
>Grayscale adapter  $1395
>keyboard           $ 255
>mouse              $ 130
>mono display       $1295
>                   ------ Hardware total, $12,500
>AIX 3.0            $1250
>AIX Xwindows       $ 500
>                   ------ Software total, $ 1,750
>                          Package total,  $14,250
> 

Let's get real on these prices folks. A 120 MB disk? That *might*
work if your user directories are mounted with NFS.  I don't know the exact
numbers, but I bet after AIX 3.x and Xwindows is loaded plus swap
space, 120MB is barely adequate. 

Add a SCSI adapter and large hard disk please == $$$$$.

I doubt IBM will have their diskless version working well for quite a
while. Anyone know the exact disk space requirements? Recommended swap
space?

    ---Jason
-----

Jason Martin Levitt    P.O. Box 49860  Austin, Texas 78765  (512) 459-0055
Internet : ja...@cs.utexas.edu            | "Toroidal carbohydrate modules? 
UUCP     : ...cs.utexas.edu!hackbox!jason |  Make mine glazed!"
BIX      : jlevitt                        |            -- Zippy

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!aplcen!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!rice!
brazos.rice.edu!schafer
From: scha...@brazos.rice.edu (Richard A. Schafer)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <5139@brazos.Rice.edu>
Date: 20 Feb 90 17:14:10 GMT
References: <E!=opb@cs.psu.edu> <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> 
<5098@brazos.Rice.edu>
Sender: r...@rice.edu
Reply-To: scha...@brazos.rice.edu (Richard A. Schafer)
Organization: Rice University
Lines: 64
Posted: Tue Feb 20 18:14:10 1990

Reading the Wall Street Journal this morning, I saw the IBM ad
(3 full pages) for the new systems, and finally found the
fine print that describes what you get for the oft-quoted
$12,995 price. 

PowerStation 320 with 8MB of RAM
120MB disk
19" grayscale display and graphics adapter
keyboard
mouse
Ethernet adapter
AIX
"user interface environment" (I don't think this means X-windows,
    but don't know what it *does* refer to.)
NFS (it's part of AIX, I think)
hypertext document search & retrieval capability.  (I think this
    means the software support for hypertext; it clearly does not
    refer to the CD-ROM player.

While there may be questions about how much use a 120MB disk 
systems is standalone, as a workstation connected to a server,
this sounds like it could be quite interesting.  While I wasn't
able to come up with this price in any configuration I did
yesterday, I have no doubt that the price is real.

There have been lots of comments about whether IBM is serious
or not in this market.  Can anyone post the commercial prices
of an equivalently-powered workstation for comparison?  

My October 1, 1989 SUN pricelist quotes

SparcStation 1 (4/60M1-8-P3)
104MB SCSI internal disk
1.44 diskette drive
19" Mono monitor
8MB RAM                           $11,495

SunOS Current Standard Release
  (no manuals) (SS2-13)           $   450
SparcStation 1 Full System 
   Documentation Set (SS-09)      $   450
                                  -------
                                  $12,395

(I presume this includes a keyboard and mouse, even though
the price book doesn't mention it.  Although we have lots
of Sun's, I don't usually do the configurations myself.)

Given the performance numbers quoted by IBM of the PowerStation
320 versus a SparcStation 1, the fact that the above price has
a *smaller* disk than the one claimed to be totally useless by
Dan Ehrlich, and that the IBM price for AIX includes software
support services (if I read the Sun price list right, an 
equivalent level of software support to IBM's would cost you 
$95/month = $1140/year, almost the price of AIX every year),
plus a longer warranty on the IBM equipment (1 year versus
90 days on Sun's), my calculations seem to suggest that the
(much?)-less-powerful SparcStation 1 actually costs a little bit *more*
then the equivalently configured PowerStation 320.

That's the only prices I have available.  Anyone else care to
provide DEC, etc., equivalents?

Richard

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ibmarc!adg.almaden.ibm.com!griefer
From: grie...@adg.almaden.ibm.com (Allan D. Griefer)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix,comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <1387@ks.UUCP>
Date: 21 Feb 90 00:28:02 GMT
References: <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <1514@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov>
Sender: n...@ibmarc.UUCP
Reply-To: grie...@ibmarc.uucp (Allan D. Griefer)
Organization: IBM Almaden Research Center
Lines: 38
Posted: Wed Feb 21 01:28:02 1990

The following prices are accurate to the best of my knowledge, but should
not be used without checking with an IBM Salesperson.

 UNIT MDL/FC           DESCRIPTION               QTY     COST
 
    7012-320 IBM RISC/6000 PWRSTA/SVR 320          1   7475.00P
        2760 GRAYSCALE GRAPH DISP ADPT             1   1395.00P
        2980 ETHERNET HIGH PERF LAN ADPTR          1    695.00P
        6010 KEYBD 101 KEYS U.S.                   1    255.00P  
        6041 3-BUTTON MOUSE                        1    130.00P
 
    8508-001 PS/2 MONOCHROME DISPLAY               1   1295.00P 

             HARDWARE TOTALS                           11245.00*
 
     5756-030    AIX V3 FOR RISC SYSTEM/6000       1
         0200    BASIC OTC 1-2  UL GRP E5          1    1250.00
         5151    ENCRYPTION FEATURE                1
 
     5601-257    AIXWINDOWS ENVIRONMENT/6000       1
         0173    BASIC OTC GROUP E5                1     500.00
 
                  SOFTWARE TOTALS                       1750.00*

		  GRAND TOTAL  			       12995.00

This is not a complete list of order features as it doesn't include a bunch
of no cost option information.  This configuration has 120MB disk, 8MB of
memory and two free slots.  It comes with the complete AIX 3 for 1-2 users
and includes AIXWindows which includes X and MOTIF.

I hope this straightens out some of the misconceptions about what you get
for $12,995.  It is, in fact a complete system.

Opinions are strictly my own,
Allan D. Griefer,       IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose, CA
BITNET: GRIEFER at ALMADEN              Internet: grie...@ibm.com
UUCP: ...!uunet!ibmarc!griefer          mcimail: 398-8024

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!samsung!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!sgi!
shinobu!odin!xhead!jsw
From: j...@xhead.SGI.COM (Jeff Weinstein)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <4369@odin.SGI.COM>
Date: 21 Feb 90 00:40:42 GMT
References: <5139@brazos.Rice.edu> <E!=opb@cs.psu.edu> <10307@hoptoad.uucp> 
<4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <5098@brazos.Rice.edu>
Sender: n...@odin.SGI.COM
Reply-To: j...@xhead.SGI.COM (Jeff Weinstein)
Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc.
Lines: 8
Posted: Wed Feb 21 01:40:42 1990


  Could someone please post the prices for the various 3D graphics
options and systems?

Jeff Weinstein - X Protocol Police
Silicon Graphics, Inc., Entry Systems Division, Window Systems
j...@xhead.esd.sgi.com
Any opinions expressed above are mine, not sgi's.

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ibmarc!adg.almaden.ibm.com!griefer
From: grie...@adg.almaden.ibm.com (Allan D. Griefer)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <1390@ks.UUCP>
Date: 21 Feb 90 00:50:13 GMT
References: <1990Feb19.213357.7340@lavaca.uh.edu> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> 
<10307@hoptoad.uucp> <1565@awdprime.UUCP> <17175@boulder.Colorado.EDU>
Sender: n...@ibmarc.UUCP
Reply-To: grie...@ibmarc.uucp (Allan D. Griefer)
Organization: IBM Almaden Research Center
Lines: 7
Posted: Wed Feb 21 01:50:13 1990

There's a $125 distribution charge for GNU EMACS, but, last time I looked,
FSF was charging $150 for distribution.

Opinions are strictly my own,
Allan D. Griefer,       IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose, CA
BITNET: GRIEFER at ALMADEN              Internet: grie...@ibm.com
UUCP: ...!uunet!ibmarc!griefer          mcimail: 398-8024

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ibmarc!adg.almaden.ibm.com!griefer
From: grie...@adg.almaden.ibm.com (Allan D. Griefer)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Keywords: all in all, reasonable cost.
Message-ID: <1391@ks.UUCP>
Date: 21 Feb 90 00:54:22 GMT
References: <1990Feb19.213357.7340@lavaca.uh.edu> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> 
<10307@hoptoad.uucp> <1565@awdprime.UUCP> <1150@watserv1.waterloo.edu>
Sender: n...@ibmarc.UUCP
Reply-To: grie...@ibmarc.uucp (Allan D. Griefer)
Organization: IBM Almaden Research Center
Lines: 12
Posted: Wed Feb 21 01:54:22 1990

It seems that there is a little confusion on the "X server code."  This code
is to support Xstation 120s since they load over the network and the $50
charge is the license fee for each of the Xstations.

AIXwindows Environment 600, which also costs $500 is the IBM version of X
plus MOTIF plus other enhancements and doesn't have a multiple terminal fee
as far as I can tell.

Opinions are strictly my own,
Allan D. Griefer,       IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose, CA
BITNET: GRIEFER at ALMADEN              Internet: grie...@ibm.com
UUCP: ...!uunet!ibmarc!griefer          mcimail: 398-8024

Path: gmdzi!unido!fauern!sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de!ira.uka.de!apple!usc!
ucsd!ucbvax!ucdavis!ucdavis.ucdavis.edu!windley
From: wind...@cheetah.ucdavis.edu (Phil Windley/20000000)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <WINDLEY.90Feb21094531@cheetah.cheetah.ucdavis.edu>
Date: 21 Feb 90 17:45:31 GMT
References: <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <5098@brazos.Rice.edu>
	<1148@gort.cs.utexas.edu>
Sender: u...@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu
Organization: UCD Robotics Research Lab
Lines: 29
Posted: Wed Feb 21 18:45:31 1990
In-reply-to: jason@cs.utexas.edu's message of 20 Feb 90 00:00:03 GMT

In article <1...@gort.cs.utexas.edu> ja...@cs.utexas.edu (Jason Martin Levitt) 
writes:


   Let's get real on these prices folks. A 120 MB disk? That *might*
   work if your user directories are mounted with NFS.  I don't know the exact
   numbers, but I bet after AIX 3.x and Xwindows is loaded plus swap
   space, 120MB is barely adequate. 

   Add a SCSI adapter and large hard disk please == $$$$$.

   I doubt IBM will have their diskless version working well for quite a
   while. Anyone know the exact disk space requirements? Recommended swap
   space?


First you complain about 120Mb being too small and then you want diskless.
I've used RT's with a 70MB disk with user files NFS mounted.  I'd rather
have thsi configuration than a diskless product.  System stuff goes much
faster.   

Of course big disks cost money, but that's true of any system.  So what's
your gripe?


--
Phil Windley                          |  wind...@cheetah.ucdavis.edu
Division of Computer Science          |  ucbvax!ucdavis!cheetah!windley
University of California, Davis       |
Davis, CA 95616                       |  (916) 752-6452 (or 3168)

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!deimos!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!
jason
From: ja...@cs.utexas.edu (Jason Martin Levitt)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Summary: Still complaining :-)
Message-ID: <1152@gort.cs.utexas.edu>
Date: 21 Feb 90 21:37:00 GMT
References: <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <5098@brazos.Rice.edu> 
<1148@gort.cs.utexas.edu> <WINDLEY.90Feb21094531@cheetah.cheetah.ucdavis.edu>
Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas
Lines: 52
Posted: Wed Feb 21 22:37:00 1990

In article <WINDLEY.90Feb21094...@cheetah.cheetah.ucdavis.edu> 
wind...@cheetah.ucdavis.edu (Phil Windley/20000000) writes:
>>In article <1...@gort.cs.utexas.edu> ja...@cs.utexas.edu (Jason Martin Levitt) 
>>writes:
>>
>>   Let's get real on these prices folks. A 120 MB disk? That *might*
>>   work if your user directories are mounted with NFS.  I don't know the exact
>>   numbers, but I bet after AIX 3.x and Xwindows is loaded plus swap
>>   space, 120MB is barely adequate. 
>>
>>   Add a SCSI adapter and large hard disk please == $$$$$.
>>
>>   I doubt IBM will have their diskless version working well for quite a
>>   while. Anyone know the exact disk space requirements? Recommended swap
>>   space?
>
>First you complain about 120Mb being too small and then you want diskless.
>I've used RT's with a 70MB disk with user files NFS mounted.  I'd rather
>have thsi configuration than a diskless product.  System stuff goes much
>faster.   
>
>Of course big disks cost money, but that's true of any system.  So what's
>your gripe?
>

  Someone responded to my question about disk space requirements and
said that AIX 3.1 will barely fit on a 300mb hard disk.  If it's possible 
to run some kind of minimal system configuration in 120mb, will someone 
please confirm it? BTW, they posted the reply to pc.rt or unix.aix.

  Yes, you can use AIX 2.2.1 with just a 70mb disk. But if you have NFS *and*
X-WIndows and a reasonable amount of swap space, things are going to get
very tight. But that's not the point. The point is that this is definitly
*not* AIX 2.2.1, it's AIX 3.1. AIX 3.1 is a big, hairy, hulking, monster
of an operating system.  

  My gripe is that people are quoting this $12,000
price for a system that won't run. What is this 120mb disk for if you
can't put the operating system on it? If it's a Sun, then it's local
swap or other interesting things that a node which boots off of a server
might need. Since IBM hasn't introducted any diskless technology yet, you
have no choice, you must buy a SCSI adapter and big hard disk.

  If IBM's software technology can match their hardware, then their
diskless node should be a wonderful, inexpensive workstation.....*if*
their software technology can match their hardware........

   ---Jason
-----

Jason Martin Levitt    P.O. Box 49860  Austin, Texas 78765  (512) 459-0055
Internet : ja...@cs.utexas.edu            |          I
UUCP     : ...cs.utexas.edu!hackbox!jason |       put the 
BIX      : jlevitt                        |     chic in geek.   

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ogicse!caesar.cs.montana.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!
samsung!cs.utexas.edu!romp!auschs!awdprime!stingray!marc
From: marc@stingray..austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson/140000;1C-22)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000 (120MB disk feasibility)
Message-ID: <1596@awdprime.UUCP>
Date: 22 Feb 90 15:52:06 GMT
References: <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <5098@brazos.Rice.edu> 
<1148@gort.cs.utexas.edu> <WINDLEY.90Feb21094531@cheetah.cheetah.ucdavis.edu> 
<1152@gort.cs.utexas.edu> <1791@ursa-major.SPDCC.COM> <1153@gort.cs.utexas.edu>
Sender: n...@awdprime.UUCP
Reply-To: m...@awdprime.austin.ibm.com.UUCP (Marc J. Stephenson)
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin, TX
Lines: 13
Posted: Thu Feb 22 16:52:06 1990

One thing that people might wish to consider is that the UNIX market is no
longer limited to scientific/engineering; it is growing quite a bit in the
commercial sector.  Whereas a minimal system might not work so well for someone
developing an application, it might work just great for someone who is running
the application.  Why should they have to pay for a lot of disk and memory if
all that they are doing is running terminals at a video checkout counter?
Whether a customer needs more performance and disk space will largely be
controlled by what they are going to use the systems for.

Marc Stephenson (m...@stingray.austin.ibm.com)
Location: F57/992, (79)3-3796, ZIP 2401, 1C-22/992, Austin, Texas
Internal: m...@stingray.austin.ibm.com		VNET: MARC at AUSVM6
External: uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ibmaus!auschs!stingray.austin.ibm.com!marc

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ibmarc!sd2.almaden.ibm.com!drake
From: dr...@sd2.almaden.ibm.com (Sam Drake)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <1398@ks.UUCP>
Date: 22 Feb 90 18:56:39 GMT
References: <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <5098@brazos.Rice.edu> 
<1148@gort.cs.utexas.edu> <WINDLEY.90Feb21094531@cheetah.cheetah.ucdavis.edu> 
<1152@gort.cs.utexas.edu>
Sender: n...@ibmarc.UUCP
Reply-To: dr...@ibmarc.uucp (Sam Drake)
Organization: IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose
Lines: 40
Posted: Thu Feb 22 19:56:39 1990

In article <1...@gort.cs.utexas.edu> ja...@cs.utexas.edu (Jason Martin Levitt) 
writes:

>  Someone responded to my question about disk space requirements and
>said that AIX 3.1 will barely fit on a 300mb hard disk.  If it's possible 
>to run some kind of minimal system configuration in 120mb, will someone 
>please confirm it? BTW, they posted the reply to pc.rt or unix.aix.

Sure, fits, no problem.  If you have lots of Program Products (compilers,
extra cost applications, etc) you would probably want to NFS mount them,
along with /u.  Come on, IBM's not going to run 3 page ads in every 
big paper in the US advertising a configuration that won't boot!
Heck, if it wouldn't boot with a 120MB disk, we would have
priced a configuration with a 10MB disk ... woulda really been cheap then!
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

>            But that's not the point. The point is that this is definitly
>*not* AIX 2.2.1, it's AIX 3.1. AIX 3.1 is a big, hairy, hulking, monster
>of an operating system.  

I don't think the facts bear this one out, especially given that it
will boot in 120MB.  

>
>  My gripe is that people are quoting this $12,000
>price for a system that won't run. What is this 120mb disk for if you
>can't put the operating system on it? If it's a Sun, then it's local
>swap or other interesting things that a node which boots off of a server
>might need. Since IBM hasn't introducted any diskless technology yet, you
>have no choice, you must buy a SCSI adapter and big hard disk.

All refuted above.  Not true.  Naturally, the local disk is for
AIX itself and for local swap (perhaps a small /tmp).  Again, you're
no worse off (and in fact far BETTER off) than you would be with a
diskless configuration.  How can you lose?

Opinions are my own!

Sam Drake / IBM Almaden Research Center 
Internet:  dr...@ibm.com            BITNET:  DRAKE at ALMADEN
Usenet:    ...!uunet!ibmarc!drake   Phone:   (408) 927-1861

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ibmarc!sd2.almaden.ibm.com!drake
From: dr...@sd2.almaden.ibm.com (Sam Drake)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <1418@ks.UUCP>
Date: 25 Feb 90 09:09:59 GMT
References: <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> <5098@brazos.Rice.edu> 
<1148@gort.cs.utexas.edu> <WINDLEY.90Feb21094531@cheetah.cheetah.ucdavis.edu> 
<1152@gort.cs.utexas.edu> <1398@ks.UUCP> <1162@gort.cs.utexas.edu>
Sender: n...@ibmarc.UUCP
Reply-To: dr...@ibmarc.uucp (Sam Drake)
Organization: IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose
Lines: 20
Posted: Sun Feb 25 10:09:59 1990

In article <1...@gort.cs.utexas.edu> ja...@cs.utexas.edu (Jason Martin Levitt) 
writes:
>:-( :-( :-( ;-)  You're support and trust of IBM's claims is encouraging.
>But, I'm interested in some approximate numbers, not unsubstantiated 
>opinions. How much space does AIX 3.1 require? X/Motif? What is the
>the recommended amount of swap space?

My earlier reassurances that 120MB systems worked WERE substantiated. 
Merriam gives "to establish by competent evidence" as a definition for
"substantiated".  I have personally run a 320 with 120MB of disk space in use
(using pre-release software).  It would be unfair for me to comment
on exact sizes of things (since I've only seen pre-release code, any more exact
sizes I might give you would be somewhat off).  And clearly any "recommended
amount of swap space" would depend highly on the applications a given machine
was running.  But rest assured that first-hand evidence shows that a 320
with 120MB of DASD is a bootable, operable, configuration.


Sam Drake / IBM Almaden Research Center 
Internet:  dr...@ibm.com            BITNET:  DRAKE at ALMADEN
Usenet:    ...!uunet!ibmarc!drake   Phone:   (408) 927-1861

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!cmcl2!yale!cs.utexas.edu!
tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!purdue!bu.edu!xylogics!world!madd
From: m...@world.std.com (jim frost)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <1990Mar9.015943.4351@world.std.com>
Date: 9 Mar 90 01:59:43 GMT
References: <E!=opb@cs.psu.edu> <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> 
<5098@brazos.Rice.edu> <5139@brazos.Rice.edu>
Organization: Saber Software
Lines: 20
Posted: Fri Mar  9 02:59:43 1990

scha...@brazos.rice.edu (Richard A. Schafer) writes:
>my calculations seem to suggest that the
>(much?)-less-powerful SparcStation 1 actually costs a little bit *more*
>then the equivalently configured PowerStation 320.

Yep, but my sparcstation 1 worked right out of the box and hasn't
crashed yet.  Our 6000 took about a month of IBM technical support
help to get running at all and we've already had to do an OS upgrade
(which fixed a lot of stuff -- ksh no longer seems to crash the thing
-- but there's a lot to be fixed).

So it comes down to this:  I can get my compiles done in twice the
time all the time or half the time every couple of weeks.

Which do you prefer?

jim frost
j...@saber.com

[Standard disclaimers]

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ibmarc!sd2.almaden.ibm.com!drake
From: dr...@sd2.almaden.ibm.com (Sam Drake)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <1443@ks.UUCP>
Date: 9 Mar 90 19:24:21 GMT
References: <E!=opb@cs.psu.edu> <10307@hoptoad.uucp> <4115@ibmpa.UUCP> 
<5098@brazos.Rice.edu> <5139@brazos.Rice.edu> 
<1990Mar9.015943.4351@world.std.com>
Sender: n...@ibmarc.UUCP
Reply-To: dr...@ibmarc.uucp (Sam Drake)
Organization: IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose
Lines: 17
Posted: Fri Mar  9 20:24:21 1990

In article <1990Mar9.015943.4...@world.std.com> m...@world.std.com 
(jim frost) writes:

>Yep, but my sparcstation 1 worked right out of the box and hasn't
>crashed yet.

Hey, that one's hardly fair ... if you have a 6000 at all, today, you 
by definition have a pre-release, early-ship machine with pre-release,
early-ship, not-done-by-definition software.  Complaining very publically
because it's not as stable as another company's shipped production level
system isn't exactly kosher...?

Opinions are my own.


Sam Drake / IBM Almaden Research Center 
Internet:  dr...@ibm.com            BITNET:  DRAKE at ALMADEN
Usenet:    ...!uunet!ibmarc!drake   Phone:   (408) 927-1861

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!image.soe.clarkson.edu!abstine
From: abst...@image.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <1990Mar10.174015.16644@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>
Date: 10 Mar 90 17:40:15 GMT
References: <1443@ks.UUCP>
Sender: abst...@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine)
Organization: Clarkson University, Potsdam, NY
Lines: 38
Posted: Sat Mar 10 18:40:15 1990

From article <1...@ks.UUCP>, by dr...@sd2.almaden.ibm.com (Sam Drake):
> In article <1990Mar9.015943.4...@world.std.com> m...@world.std.com 
(jim frost) writes:
> 
>>Yep, but my sparcstation 1 worked right out of the box and hasn't
>>crashed yet.
> 
> Hey, that one's hardly fair ... if you have a 6000 at all, today, you 
> by definition have a pre-release, early-ship machine with pre-release,
> early-ship, not-done-by-definition software.  Complaining very publically
> because it's not as stable as another company's shipped production level
> system isn't exactly kosher...?
> 
Well, then why did IBM announce it sooo early, if they aren't prepared to
ship 'production' quality machines? Advice: if your product isn't ready
then don't announce it and ship some 'pre-release' machines and then turn
around and complain when users criticize it for not working right. It seems
like a typical IBM tactic to pre-annonounce their machines in order to try
to get some market share. Well, in the workstation market, I would predict that
if a customer is looking at some machines, and he looks at DEC, Sun, HP, and
IBM, the IBM wouldn't be the one he would pick right now because the
machines that he can actually get his hands on are 'flaky'. Making bold
promises like 'oh, it is a pre-release machine. it will be much better when
it is ready', don't really hold water. If your machine isn't ready to ship
NOW, then don't announce it. Data General did the same thing. The DG machine
machine I saw shortly after they brought them out was flaky. All the IBM
RS/6000's I've heard about are flaky. First impressions are VERY lasting 
impressions. If IBM wanted to make a big splash in the workstation
market, they should do it with something that floats once it hits, not 
something that sinks once it hits and has to be held up with a life preserver
until it can float...


-- 
Art Stine
Sr Network Engineer
Clarkson U
ABSt...@CLVMS.Clarkson.Edu

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!ibmarc!sd2.almaden.ibm.com!drake
From: dr...@sd2.almaden.ibm.com (Sam Drake)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.aix
Subject: Re: Risc System/6000
Message-ID: <1446@ks.UUCP>
Date: 12 Mar 90 07:05:58 GMT
References: <1443@ks.UUCP> <1990Mar10.174015.16644@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>
Sender: n...@ibmarc.UUCP
Reply-To: dr...@ibmarc.uucp (Sam Drake)
Organization: IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose
Lines: 40
Posted: Mon Mar 12 08:05:58 1990

In article <1990Mar10.174015.16...@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> 
abst...@image.soe.clarkson.edu (Arthur Stine) writes:
>Well, then why did IBM announce it sooo early, if they aren't prepared to
>ship 'production' quality machines? Advice: if your product isn't ready
>then don't announce it and ship some 'pre-release' machines and then turn
>around and complain when users criticize it for not working right. 

The RISC System/6000 machines were announced on 15 Feb, with availability
dates generally listed as second quarter 1990.  I think if you look at what
most vendors of computer hardware are doing today, you'll see that a lag time
between announcement and availability of only 1 quarter (3 months or so) is
not "sooo early".  Many products are being announced by many companies many
Years before they actually ship.  Your sentiment is well taken ... but I think
you're aiming at an innocent party.

Every customer that has a '6000 today got it knowing full well that it was
an early ship machine.  If your organization didn't have a relationship
with IBM, you wouldn't have the machine at all today; you'd be waiting
until 2Q90 along with everyone else.  If your organization wanted a fully
tested machine, it should have said, "no thanks, we'll wait for the 2Q90
date".  Since your organization has a 6000, I assume you agreed to take a
pre-release machine; and so I really still think it's unfair for folks to
be saying, in effect, "hey, the early ship machine I asked IBM to send me
isn't fully tested".  Naturally it is not, and both you and IBM knew that
when the machine was delivered.  To complain about it now is just not right.

The bottom line is that pre-release software and hardware ... by definition ...
has bugs.  Every pre-release machine by every manufacturer has had bugs.
This says NOTHING about the quality of the final, generally-available product;
you can't extrapolate at all about what 2Q90 machines will be like from 
what early machines are like.  

If you order and receive a machine after the general availability
date in 2Q90, and it has bugs then, by all means flame away.  

Opinions are entirely my own; I do NOT speak for my employer.  Really!


Sam Drake / IBM Almaden Research Center 
Internet:  dr...@ibm.com            BITNET:  DRAKE at ALMADEN
Usenet:    ...!uunet!ibmarc!drake   Phone:   (408) 927-1861

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		       SCO Files Lawsuit Against IBM

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