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soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J. Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug9.102643.27249@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 9 Aug 91 10:26:43 GMT
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: cc
Lines: 41


	This posting describes the classes of otherwise qualified
articles that I am not posting to comp.archives, and explains why.

	I am not scanning the Apple/Macintosh newsgroups or
comp.os.coherent (the newsgroup for Mark Williams Company's
Coherent operating system).  Posting ftp pointers on these products
might contribute to the usefulness of Macintosh hardware or the
Coherent Operating System, and could possibly result in somebody
buying one of these products, which would, in turn, help fund
efforts to make it illegal for me to write many kinds of programs.
There are other parties who are also attempting to restrict computer
programming, but Apple and MWC are particularly nefarious offenders,
and there are other boycott efforts underway against both Apple and
MWC, which makes it especially important that I not negate those efforts.

	Please don't post articles about Mac and Coherent users
being collateral victims, as that my volunteering to provide a
service for the non-Mac and non-MWC users does not actually worsen
the lot of Mac users or MWC users in absolute terms.  Also, note that
I am scanning the articles from these ignored newsgroups that are
cross-posted to other newsgroups.  If you feel strongly that
these newsgroups should be scanned, I am quite willing to send you
the regular expression describing the newsgroups that are being
ignored so that you can arrange to scan the articles that have been
posted exclusively to those groups and to post them to comp.archives.

	For the time being, I am attempting to post information only
on non-proprietary software.  I am trying to determine the
appropriate fee structure and forum for announcements of proprietary
software.  In order to avoid sending other people's commercial advertising
to sites that don't agree to it, and in order to be sure that the
main usenet hierarchies can be carried on NSFNet, proprietary software
announcements should probably be carried on some other hierarchy such
as "biz", "clarinet", or "msen."  I think that Ed's vision of value-added
proprietary news services might be an appropriate forum for proprietary
announcements.

Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209

Path: gmdzi!unido!fauern!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!
zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!twwells!bill
From: b...@twwells.com (T. William Wells)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <6EsdaVVDF8oEsV-a@twwells.com>
Date: 10 Aug 91 16:58:50 GMT
References: <1991Aug9.102643.27249@agate.berkeley.edu>
Organization: None, Mt. Laurel, NJ
Lines: 23

In article <1991Aug9.102643.27...@agate.berkeley.edu>
	a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J. Richter) writes:
:       I am not scanning the Apple/Macintosh newsgroups or
: comp.os.coherent (the newsgroup for Mark Williams Company's
: Coherent operating system).  Posting ftp pointers on these products
: might contribute to the usefulness of Macintosh hardware or the
: Coherent Operating System, and could possibly result in somebody
: buying one of these products, which would, in turn, help fund
: efforts to make it illegal for me to write many kinds of programs.

As the original moderator of comp.archives, I strongly recommend
that Mr. Richter be forbidden to post to comp.archives until he
decides that it is not the proper place for political statements.
There is a hierarchy for that kind of nonsense; comp is not it.

I happen to find Apple's and MW's actions reprehensible, but I
strongly disagree with any attempt to use the regular Usenet for
political purposes unless those purposes are within the charter
of the particular newsgroups.

---
Bill                            { uunet | decwrl | telesci }!twwells!bill
b...@twwells.com

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J. Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug11.021919.21515@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 11 Aug 91 02:19:19 GMT
References: <1991Aug9.102643.27249@agate.berkeley.edu> 
<6EsdaVVDF8oEsV-a@twwells.com>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: UC Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Lines: 91

In article <6EsdaVVDF8oEs...@twwells.com> b...@twwells.com (T. William Wells) 
writes:
>In article <1991Aug9.102643.27...@agate.berkeley.edu>
>As the original moderator of comp.archives, I strongly recommend
>that Mr. Richter be forbidden to post to comp.archives until he
>decides that it is not the proper place for political statements.
>There is a hierarchy for that kind of nonsense; comp is not it.

	Depending on your precise definition of "political statements"
and "nonsense", it is either an error for you to attach such labels to
my actions, or not all actions which can be described with such labels
should necessarily be prohibited in the comp hierarchy.  The important
distinction between the class of efforts that I think Bill means to
ban and my efforts has to do the fact that my efforts do not make it
more difficult for somebody to cause comp.archives to cover all of the
newsgroups.  Some hypothetical examples should elucidate my point.

	Suppose that I believed in a religious prohibition against
eating pork and that there were job openings in the meat packing
business and that I decided to apply only to those job openings that
did not involve packing pork products.  Would my effort to live my
life to a slightly stricter moral standard constitute "nonsense" or a
"political statement?"  Arguments can be made that all religion is
"nonsense" and that _political statement_ is so broad a term that it
includes all religious practices; it's a question of semantics.  The
important question is would you insist that orthodox jews and muslims
be forbidden from working in all meat packing industries, even though
my insistence on not working in the pork packing industry would not
interfere with anybody else's efforts to work in the pork industry?  I
think that the answer to this question should be "absolutely not",
partially because they would not be substantially impeding with the
efforts of others.

	Let's consider a similar example that removes the question of
religion.  Consider the case of a moralistic vegetarian who was
willing to work on farms but not ranches.  Do you insist that this
vegetarian should be legally prohibited from working in the
agriculture industry at all, even though this vegetarian's efforts are
not substantially impeding the efforts of those who are willing to
work on ranches?  I am not asking whether or not you approve of such
actions, but, rather, whether or not such actions ought to be
prohibited.

	Let's return to my situation.  I have carefully arranged my
efforts so that my scanning of the non-Mac non-MWC newsgroups does not
substantially interfere with anybody else's efforts to scan only the
set of Macintosh or MWC articles.  To that end, I have stated my
willingness to publish the regular expression describing exactly which
news groups I am ignoring, and I have indicated the disposition of
cross-posted articles (they are scanned).  Not only that, but I have
been making an exception for Macintosh-related postings that do pass
the automatic scanning criteria, and forwarding them (in the future, I
may adjust the scanning criteria or just save them to a file which I
would make publicly available).  I make this exception because I don't
want to be accused of causing any Macintosh posting to "fall through
the cracks" or to put anybody who is scanning the Macintosh newsgroups
in danger of causing duplicate postings.

	If anything, my efforts make it easier for somebody else to
cause comp.archives to cover the remaining newsgroups, because the
effort that I am saving others by scanning the bulk of the newsgroups
outweighs the effort that they would have to make to cause their
software to ignore the groups that I am scanning.

>I happen to find Apple's and MW's actions reprehensible, but I
>strongly disagree with any attempt to use the regular Usenet for
>political purposes unless those purposes are within the charter
>of the particular newsgroups.

	You may still "disagree" with my decisions in the sense that
you would feel compelled to scan Macintosh newsgroups if you were in
my shoes.  That belief alone is not sufficient to demonstrate that
this practice which you eschew should be banned.

	For the record, I am not sure that interfering with
attempts to provide a service to Mac and MWC users efforts would
necessarily be wrong.  I am, however, currently going to great lengths
to avoid opening that can of worms.

	I think that certain types of "political statements", such as
attaching political messages comp.archives repostings, are wrong
because they, at the very least, constitute an intentional effort to
post material into an inappropriate newsgroup.  I do not believe that
my repostings of non-Mac non-MWC ftp information are inappropriate to
comp.archives, nor do I believe that my repostings constitute
"political statements" by any meaningful definition of the term, nor
do I believe that my efforts make it substantially harder for anyone
to cover the newsgroups that I am ignoring.

Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209

Path: gmdzi!unido!fauern!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!samsung!
cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!d75!exeter.austin.ibm.com!woan
From: w...@exeter.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S Woan)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <4101@d75.UUCP>
Date: 11 Aug 91 02:59:07 GMT
References: <1991Aug9.102643.27249@agate.berkeley.edu> 
<6EsdaVVDF8oEsV-a@twwells.com>
Sender: n...@d75.UUCP
Reply-To: w...@cactus.org
Organization: Austin School of Hardknocks
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In article <6EsdaVVDF8oEs...@twwells.com> b...@twwells.com (T. William Wells) 
writes:
>As the original moderator of comp.archives, I strongly recommend
>that Mr. Richter be forbidden to post to comp.archives until he
>decides that it is not the proper place for political statements.
>There is a hierarchy for that kind of nonsense; comp is not it.

"nonsense" hmm... As long as he is not stopping someone else from
doing it, his "inaction" seems like a perfectly good form of public
protest.

>I happen to find Apple's and MW's actions reprehensible, but I
>strongly disagree with any attempt to use the regular Usenet for
>political purposes unless those purposes are within the charter
>of the particular newsgroups.

If somebody wishes to do the same for the coherent and mac groups then
let them... If not so be it, Adam seems to be doing a community
service out "of the goodness of his heart" as it is; who are we to
tell him that in order to contribute, he must go against his beliefs.



-- 
+-----All Views Expressed Are My Own And Are Not Necessarily Shared By------+
+------------------------------My Employer----------------------------------+
+ Ronald S. Woan                w...@cactus.org or w...@austin.vnet.ibm.com +
+ other email addresses             Prodigy: XTCR74A Compuserve: 73530,2537 +

Path: gmdzi!unido!fauern!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!
zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!udel!minnie.me.udel.edu!johnston
From: johns...@minnie.me.udel.edu
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <61208@nigel.ee.udel.edu>
Date: 11 Aug 91 19:24:33 GMT
Sender: use...@ee.udel.edu
Lines: 59
Nntp-Posting-Host: minnie.me.udel.edu

In article <4...@d75.UUCP>, w...@exeter.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S Woan) 
writes...
>In article <6EsdaVVDF8oEs...@twwells.com> b...@twwells.com (T. William Wells) 
writes:
>>As the original moderator of comp.archives, I strongly recommend
>>that Mr. Richter be forbidden to post to comp.archives until he
>>decides that it is not the proper place for political statements.

I disagree.  How can it help to censor Mr. Richter?  According to a 
recent version of Gene Spafford's "List of Active Newsgroups", the 
content of comp.archives is described as:

comp.archives		Descriptions of public access archives. (Moderated)

Has the charter of this group been changed, or has it always been 
"comp.archives.gnot_Mac_or_Coherent"?  

>If somebody wishes to do the same for the coherent and mac groups then
>let them... If not so be it, Adam seems to be doing a community
>service out "of the goodness of his heart" as it is; who are we to
>tell him that in order to contribute, he must go against his beliefs.

Mr. Richter has offered to provide the regular expression that will 
allow someone else to scan and index the mac and coherent groups
without duplication, which would result in a waste of net bandwidth. 

AR> To that end, I have stated my
AR> willingness to publish the regular expression describing exactly which
AR> news groups I am ignoring, and I have indicated the disposition of
AR> cross-posted articles (they are scanned).

If it is true that the charter of comp.archives does not permit
politically-motivated exclusion of information, I trust that he
will also be forthright enough to post the Mac and Coherent archive
listings in comp.archives where they belong under the group's charter.

He seems to give himself a bit of wiggle room with the following:

AR> For the record, I am not sure that interfering with
AR> attempts to provide a service to Mac and MWC users efforts would
AR> necessarily be wrong.

Personally, I find the notion that Mr. Richter chooses to promote the
political agenda of the Free Software Society by effectively practicing
CENSORSHIP in a usenet newsgroup to be very dissapointing.    

How can censorship possibly further such a cause?  I sincerely hope
that Mr. Richter will reconsider.  I encourage those who wish to share 
information about Mac and Coherent archives to employ Mr. Richter's 
"regular expression";  and to submit the information thus gathered to 
comp.archives for posting.  Until he makes available his methods and
agrees to follow the group's charter, I suggest that archive information
for the Macintosh and Coherent operating systems be posted to the 
un-moderated groups within the comp.archives hierarchy.

Freedom of information is also a matter of principle.  If Stallman 
and disciples are right, their ideas will succeed without resorting 
to petty attempts to limit public access to information.

-- Bill (johns...@minnie.me.udel.edu)
-- 38 Chambers St.; Newark, DE 19711; (302)368-1949

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!maelstrom.Berkeley.EDU!alanc
From: al...@maelstrom.Berkeley.EDU (Alan Coopersmith)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug12.050157.10322@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 91 05:01:57 GMT
References: <61208@nigel.ee.udel.edu>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: ucb
Lines: 20


Excluding Mac & Coherent (and also Apple II?) listings for political reasons
opens a whole bag of worms...almost every company has some political reason
to be censored.

For instance lets add IBM to the bad companies list...they are supporting
censorship of electronic communications on their Prodigy service...an issue
that strikes much closer to home with most USENet readers...

Another analogy...what if Chuck Musciano took his Movie Ratings List that is
posted weekly to rec.arts.movies and deleted any movie who's content or
maker didn't agree with his politics?  The value of the list is lessened

I agree with your right to hold the views that you do, but when you impose
them on the net.community, I cannot support your actions.

----------------------
   Alan Coopersmith
al...@ocf.berkeley.edu
----------------------

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J. Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug12.052411.12247@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 91 05:24:11 GMT
References: <61202@nigel.ee.udel.edu>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: cc
Lines: 49

In article <61...@nigel.ee.udel.edu> johns...@minnie.me.udel.edu writes:
>If it is true that the charter of comp.archives does not permit
>politically-motivated exclusion of information, I trust that he
>will also be forthright enough to post the Mac and Coherent archive
>listings in comp.archives where they belong under the group's charter.

	I am only willing to choose between scanning the non-Mac and
non-MWC newsgroups (or a subset of them) and not contributing postings
to comp.archives at all.  I am also considering restricting the perl
program that I wrote to prevent my programming efforts from being
used to do a list things that ultimately fund the efforts of Apple
and MWC.

>Personally, I find the notion that Mr. Richter chooses to promote the
>political agenda of the Free Software Society [sic] by effectively
>practicing CENSORSHIP in a usenet newsgroup to be very dissapointing.    

	Your use of the terms _censorship_ and _exclusion_ are misleading
when you define them to include actions that don't impede anybody else's
publication or distribution activities.  Your whole argument is based on
expanding the term _censorship_ to cover not only everything that people
would call "secrecy", but also the limits of the good samaritan nature of
private citizens.  Many of the wrongs that people describe with the word
"censorship" have to do with direct interference in the activities of
others.  When I mentally replace the word _censorship_ with "not
volunteering to scan Mac and MWC newsgroups", your whole argument
becomes meaningless, except for the following vague line.

>Freedom of information is also a matter of principle.

	Privacy ("secrecy") and freedom from slavery are related to
our notions of human dignity, while "freedom of information" (whatever
that means) presumably refers some kind of civil right.  In general, I
don't feel obligated to help others do harmful things by providing
them with information that I may have, and I certainly don't feel
obligated to undertake a search for such information on demand.

>How can censorship possibly further such a cause?

	Refraining from spending my effort increasing the value of
Macintoshes and the Coherent OS means that I will not be helping to
fund their efforts.  I believe that the unfortunate reality is that
funding will effect the outcome of UI coypright and software patent
battles, and will also effect how much incentive or disincentive
other parties have for engaging in similar practices.

Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!agate!appel
From: ap...@soda.berkeley.edu (Shannon D. Appel)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <APPEL.91Aug11224714@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 12 Aug 91 06:47:14 GMT
References: <61208@nigel.ee.udel.edu>
	<1991Aug12.050157.10322@agate.berkeley.edu>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: csua
Lines: 37

Dear Mr. Richter,

Please censor all articles concerning IBM, who censors PROGIDY email.
Please censor all articles from or about llnl or lbl who are involved
    in nuclear weapon research.
Please censor all articles about Sys5 or any other AT&T release, who
    is trying to stifle the X11 Windowing system.
Please censor all articles from att.com for the same reason.
Please censor all articles from or about xcf.berkeley.edu because you
    don't like them.
Please censor all articles concerning Microsoft (Windows, MS-DOS, etc)
    because they have been involved in look and feel law suits.
Please censor all articles from or about Xerox who has been involved
    in look and feel law suits.
Please censor all articles from apple.com or about MACintoshes, because
    Apple has been involved in look and feel law suits.
Please censor all articles about Coherent OS.
Please censor all articles concerning MUDs which waste bandwidth all
    across the net.
Please censor all articles posted in the biz hierarchy, because they
    are trying to make money off of the net.
Please censor all articles posted to the clarinet hierarchy, for the
    same reason.
Please censor all articles in any of the *.forsale groups for the
    same reason.
Please censor all articles from stanford.edu, because they're a bunch
    of spoiled rich brats, and they've misapproriated millions of tax
    dollars.
Please censor all articles from any mil sites, because war is evil,
    and we should try and disband our huge war engine.
Please censor all articles from berkeley.edu, because the fascist
    administrators of that school have built volley ball courts on
    People's Park, in blatant disregard for the homeless.
Please censor all articles that point to any FTP sites that are not
    Politically Correct.

Thank you.

Path: gmdzi!unido!fauern!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!
agate!soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J. Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug12.073247.21744@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 91 07:32:47 GMT
References: <61208@nigel.ee.udel.edu> <1991Aug12.050157.10322@agate.berkeley.edu> 
<APPEL.91Aug11224714@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: cc
Lines: 38

In article <APPEL.91Aug11224...@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU> ap...@soda.berkeley.edu
 (Shannon D. Appel) writes:
>Dear Mr. Richter,
>
>Please censor all articles concerning IBM, who censors PROGIDY email.
>[list of other mostly silly suggestions.]

	I am not censoring anything.  I am merely not volunteering
to handle certain articles.  It is when people do not understand this
type of distinction that they incorporate "censorship" into everyday
complaints, causing people to become jaded, and not think that it's such
a big deal with the real thing comes along, like with news coverage in
the gulf war.

	Most of your other suggestions for postings that you would
like me to ignore or ("censor" in your parlance) were silly, or cases
where ignoring the articles would probably do more harm than good, or
cases where the articles to ignore cannot easily be described in
terms of comparing strings to regular expressions.  Also, I'm not
trying to start a new boycott here.  I'm just respsecting the efforts
of others with whom I agree.

	If the LPF calls for a boycott on AT&T, I won't process the
3b1 newsgroup or any other AT&T hardware newsgroups.  However, if that
happens, I will give everyone notice and once again let people know
the algorithm that I am using to ignore articles.

	I am not willing to process the Mac and MWC groups under any
circumstances or to allow my program to be used for that purpose.  If
the consensus really is that you folks would rather not have me
contributing to comp.archives at all, then so be it.

	If some heckler like Shannon feels that he or she truely
represents the majority, then he or she should call for a vote on
whether or not to accept my contribution to comp.archives.

Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J. Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug12.073849.22114@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 91 07:38:49 GMT
References: <61208@nigel.ee.udel.edu> <1991Aug12.050157.10322@agate.berkeley.edu>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: cc
Lines: 45

In article <1991Aug12.050157.10...@agate.berkeley.edu> 
al...@maelstrom.Berkeley.EDU (Alan Coopersmith) writes:
>
>Excluding Mac & Coherent (and also Apple II?) listings for political reasons
>opens a whole bag of worms...almost every company has some political reason
>to be censored.

	The folks who run Prodigy (Sears, I believe) are doing
something that people can avoid simply by switching to another
computer service, whereas Apple and MWC are attempting to restrict
people through federal law.

>Another analogy...what if Chuck Musciano took his Movie Ratings List that is
>posted weekly to rec.arts.movies and deleted any movie who's content or
>maker didn't agree with his politics?  The value of the list is lessened

	Firstly, I do not have a monopoly on posting to comp.archives,
whereas the moderator of rec.arts.movies presumably does.  Not only
that, but I am going to great lengths to make sure that the set of
articles which I am ignoring is easily identified by purely automatic
means so that others will have the ability to scan the ignored material
(with their own software).

	Secondly, if some movie company or movie producer were doing
something as bad as software patents or UI copyrights, then maybe Chuck
should be boycotting that producer or company.  If Chuck's boycotting
benefitted the rest of society more than it "lessened" the "value of
the list", then he should have no compunction about participating
in that boycott.  Perhaps he should even feel an obligation to do so.
One's job description does not excuse one from responsibility for
one's behavior.

>I agree with your right to hold the views that you do, but when you impose
>them on the net.community, I cannot support your actions.

	I am not "imposing" anything on anybody.  I am volunteering to
process a certain set of articles.  You and others are quite free to
make efforts to process the other articles, or subsets thereof,
although such efforts will harm all of us.  I am not willing to
process the Mac newsgroups.  You can choose only between merging my
partial contribution with whatever partial contributions others make
or rejecting my offer of assistance.

Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!agate!appel
From: ap...@soda.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: CFV: adamj contributions
Message-ID: <APPEL.91Aug12010854@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 12 Aug 91 09:08:54 GMT
References: <61208@nigel.ee.udel.edu>
	<1991Aug12.050157.10322@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<APPEL.91Aug11224714@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
	<1991Aug12.073247.21744@agate.berkeley.edu>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: csua
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In-Reply-To: adam@soda.berkeley.edu's message of Mon, 12 Aug 1991 07: 32:47 GMT

In article <1991Aug12.073247.21...@agate.berkeley.edu> a...@soda.berkeley.edu 
(Adam J. Richter) writes:
>	   I am not willing to process the Mac and MWC groups under any
>   circumstances or to allow my program to be used for that purpose.  If
>   the consensus really is that you folks would rather not have me
>   contributing to comp.archives at all, then so be it.
>
>	   If some heckler like Shannon feels that he or she truely
>   represents the majority, then he or she should call for a vote on
>   whether or not to accept my contribution to comp.archives.

I'll take you up on that, Adam.  I'm willing to hold an advisory
vote on whether Mr. Richter's contributions to comp.archives are wanted
or not.  It's just advisory, but I'm sure that either Adam or the
"hecklers" will be willing to list to the decision.

Here's what you do:

To vote, send mail to ap...@soda.berkeley.edu

Put ARCHIVE-YES in the subject if you think the contributions are worthwhile,
and you would like to them continue, despite the deliberate omissions.

Put ARCHIVE-NO in the subject if you're offended by the way Adam is using
this newsgroup as a soapbox to espouse his (or rather the LPF's views),
and you'd prefer him not to make censored contributions.

Anything beyond the subject will be ignored.

I'll post the numbers who fell into each category, on Friday at midnight.

Sound good?  It should end the controversy, and allow everyone to get
back to whatever else they should be doing.

Shannon

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J. Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: CFV: adamj contributions
Message-ID: <1991Aug12.090546.27617@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 91 09:05:46 GMT
References: <APPEL.91Aug11224714@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU> 
<1991Aug12.073247.21744@agate.berkeley.edu> 
<APPEL.91Aug12010854@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: cc
Lines: 17

In article <APPEL.91Aug12010...@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU> ap...@soda.berkeley.edu 
writes:
>[...]  if you're offended by the way Adam is using
>this newsgroup as a soapbox to espouse his (or rather the LPF's views),
>and you'd prefer him not to make censored contributions.

	Clarification:  For the umpteenth time, I am not engaging
in censorship.  I am also not trying to use this newsgroups as a
soapbox to advertise political views (which is what I think Shannon
meant to say instead of "espouse"), but I have had to discuss some
of these issues quite a bit in order to explain the reasons for my
decisions.

			--Adam

Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209

Path: gmdzi!unido!fauern!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!
agate!soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J. Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Vote on the future of comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug12.095632.540@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 91 09:56:32 GMT
References: <APPEL.91Aug11224714@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU> 
<1991Aug12.073247.21744@agate.berkeley.edu> 
<APPEL.91Aug12010854@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: cc
Lines: 95


	This posting is to alert comp.archives readers who do not
normally read comp.archives.admin of a vote being taken that will
effect comp.archives.

	As you may be aware, comp.archives has returned because I
wrote a program that scans the newsgroups for keywords and allows me
to select the more appropriate articles (manually) for inclusion in
comp.archives.

	As I have explained in comp.archives.admin, I refuse to use
this program or allow it to be used to generate submissions from the
Apple newsgroups or comp.os.coherent in observance of what I feel are
two very justified boycotts.

	As I have also explained in each posting, I have no intention
of interfering in anybody else's efforts to provide coverage for the
newsgroups which I am not scanning, and that I am even willing to take
measures to make sure that there aren't any postings that could be
accidentally duplicated or accidentally "fall between the cracks."

	Some people seem to feel that my unwillingness to process these
articles and my unwillingness to allow my programming effort to be
used for this purpose constitute "censorship" in a meaningful sense
of the word, in spite of my efforts to avoid interfering in the efforts
of those who might want to contribute repostings of the articles that
I am ignoring.  One person has now called a vote on whether or not I
should discontinue my contributions to comp.archives.

	I encourage those of you who are interested to read the threads
"What is being excluded from comp.archives" and "CFV: adamj contributions"
in comp.archives.admin.

	I have attached the call for votes posting below.

			--Adam J. Richter
			  a...@soda.berkeley.edu
			  comp.archives contributor

From agate!agate!appel Mon Aug 12 02:14:19 PDT 1991
Article: 330 of comp.archives.admin
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Path: agate!agate!appel
From: ap...@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: CFV: adamj contributions
In-Reply-To: a...@soda.berkeley.edu's message of Mon, 12 Aug 1991 07: 32:47 GMT
Message-ID: <APPEL.91Aug12010...@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: csua
References: <61...@nigel.ee.udel.edu>
	<1991Aug12.050157.10...@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<APPEL.91Aug11224...@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
	<1991Aug12.073247.21...@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1991 09:08:54 GMT
Lines: 34

In article <1991Aug12.073247.21...@agate.berkeley.edu> a...@soda.berkeley.edu 
(Adam J. Richter) writes:
>	   I am not willing to process the Mac and MWC groups under any
>   circumstances or to allow my program to be used for that purpose.  If
>   the consensus really is that you folks would rather not have me
>   contributing to comp.archives at all, then so be it.
>
>	   If some heckler like Shannon feels that he or she truely
>   represents the majority, then he or she should call for a vote on
>   whether or not to accept my contribution to comp.archives.

I'll take you up on that, Adam.  I'm willing to hold an advisory
vote on whether Mr. Richter's contributions to comp.archives are wanted
or not.  It's just advisory, but I'm sure that either Adam or the
"hecklers" will be willing to list to the decision.

Here's what you do:

To vote, send mail to ap...@soda.berkeley.edu

Put ARCHIVE-YES in the subject if you think the contributions are worthwhile,
and you would like to them continue, despite the deliberate omissions.

Put ARCHIVE-NO in the subject if you're offended by the way Adam is using
this newsgroup as a soapbox to espouse his (or rather the LPF's views),
and you'd prefer him not to make censored contributions.

Anything beyond the subject will be ignored.

I'll post the numbers who fell into each category, on Friday at midnight.

Sound good?  It should end the controversy, and allow everyone to get
back to whatever else they should be doing.

Shannon


Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!
compass!mcmullan
From: mcmul...@compass.com (Greg McMullan)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <7073@compass.com>
Date: 12 Aug 91 14:07:51 GMT
References: <61208@nigel.ee.udel.edu> <1991Aug12.050157.10322@agate.berkeley.edu> 
<1991Aug12.073849.22114@agate.berkeley.edu>
Sender: r...@compass.com
Organization: Compass, Inc.  Wakefield, MA
Lines: 31


*sigh*  I wasn't going to comment on this mess, but since it looks like the
complaint might actually cause Adam to stop providing his comp.archives
postings, I suppose I'd better do what I can.

Hmm...I've now deleted several versions of what I was trying to say as
being too longwinded.  I guess I can keep it very brief by simply stating
the two following points:

1)  Adam - please don't stop the postings because some people are
complaining that you aren't doing what they want you to.  I really
appreciate the work that you have put into keeping comp.archives going.
The newsgroup is a very valuable service, and I missed it when Ed was not
able to keep it going.

2) To the people out there complaining about Adam's exclusion of articles:
I have perl code that will allow scanning an NNTP feed and selecting
articles that look like they are good candidates for reposting to
comp.archives.  Since Adam is willing to give us a regex for the newsgroups
that he is excluding, it is not at all difficult to modify my code to scan
just those newsgroups, and then you can repost the articles that Adam is
excluding.  I do not have a full news feed, or either the time or
motivation to worry about missing Apple or Coherent postings (they don't
apply to anything that I do), but I will certainly help as I can if someone
else wants to put out the effort.  If noone is willing to expend the effort
to scan the apple and coherent newsgroups, will you kindly not whine and
moan about people who are providing a useful service just because it
doesn't match what you would like to see?

Greg McMullan
mcmul...@compass.com

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rutgers!
mcnc!wolves!ggw
From: g...@wolves.uucp (Gregory G. Woodbury)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug17.054333.25267@wolves.uucp>
Date: 17 Aug 91 05:43:33 GMT
References: <1991Aug12.050157.10322@agate.berkeley.edu> 
<1991Aug12.073849.22114@agate.berkeley.edu> <7073@compass.com>
Organization: Wolves Den UNIX
Lines: 41

In article <7...@compass.com> mcmul...@compass.com (Greg McMullan) writes:
>
>1)  Adam - please don't stop the postings because some people are
>complaining that you aren't doing what they want you to.  I really
>appreciate the work that you have put into keeping comp.archives going.
>The newsgroup is a very valuable service, and I missed it when Ed was not
>able to keep it going.

"...when Ed was not able to keep it going."   HA!
"...when Ed decided he wanted to make money off of it."  is probably a
better description (at least the way I understand his resignation
speech.:-(

The "good old days" are gone, but Mr V. was hardly a spotless example of
net good samaritanism.

Haven't you heard Albert Langer's contentions in news.admin that Usenet
is a well organized entity with democratic principles?   (Oops, sorry,
wrong soapbox..... :-)

As much as I disagree with Adam J's political agenda, it is not the
place of the net to vote up or down on his contributions.  I can
disagree with his agenda while appreciating that the service is being
provided.  At this point the net is STILL a free entity, and we are free
to express our pleasure or displeasure.  It should not be a matter for
casting before the feet of the hoi polloi, and thus reducing the net to
a democratic mediocrity.

I WILL NOT vote in the straw poll, and urge Adam and all to simply
ignore the results.

On the other hand, please listen to the opinions expressed and try not
to be so, so, (hmm..., ah yes) "activist" about your particular phobias
and pet peeves.  Your style of "discussing" (er announcing) the missing
information just begs for abusive responses.  A less confrontational
position would be much better for all concerned.
-- 
Gregory G. Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC
UUCP: ...dukcds!wolves!ggw   ...duke!wolves!ggw           [use the maps!]
Domain: g...@cds.duke.edu     ggw%wol...@duke.cs.duke.edu
[The line eater is a boojum snark! ]           <standard disclaimers apply>

Path: gmdzi!unido!math.fu-berlin.de!ox.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!
soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug21.075529.3452@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 91 07:55:29 GMT
References: <1991Aug12.073849.22114@agate.berkeley.edu> <7073@compass.com> 
<1991Aug17.054333.25267@wolves.uucp>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: cc
Lines: 28

In article <1991Aug17.054333.25...@wolves.uucp> g...@wolves.uucp 
(Gregory G. Woodbury) writes:
>In article <7...@compass.com> mcmul...@compass.com (Greg McMullan) writes:
>"...when Ed was not able to keep it going."   HA!
>"...when Ed decided he wanted to make money off of it."  is probably a
>better description (at least the way I understand his resignation
>speech.:-(
>
>The "good old days" are gone, but Mr V. was hardly a spotless example of
>net good samaritanism.

	Comp.archives.admin readers might be interested in knowing that
even though Ed's time is limitted, he has provided me with a great deal
of help in my efforts to generate submissions for comp.archives.  I
believe that Ed's heart is in the right place, and that he saw the
proprietarization of comp.archives as the only way to keep it going at
the time.

	BTW, I don't see anything wrong with distributing a proprietary
version of comp.archives on an explicitly proprietary news hierarchy in
order to make some money.  Such a service ought to be conducted outside
of the main usenet hierarchies and there are some legal issues would
need to be resolved, but I think that such a service could be quite
useful.  I don't think that trying to set up such a service represents
a "spot" on anybody's "net good samaritanism."

Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209

Path: gmdzi!unido!math.fu-berlin.de!ox.com!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
wupost!uunet!mcsun!cernvax!chx400!bernina!bernina!neeri
From: ne...@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Ulrich Neeracher)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <NEERI.91Aug25212421@iis.ethz.ch>
Date: 25 Aug 91 19:24:21 GMT
References: <61208@nigel.ee.udel.edu>
	<1991Aug12.050157.10322@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<APPEL.91Aug11224714@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
	<1991Aug12.073247.21744@agate.berkeley.edu>
Sender: n...@bernina.ethz.ch (USENET News System)
Organization: Integrated Systems Laboratory, ETH, Zurich
Lines: 18
In-Reply-To: adam@soda.berkeley.edu's message of 12 Aug 91 07:32:47 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: etzj-gw

In article <1991Aug12.073247.21...@agate.berkeley.edu> a...@soda.berkeley.edu 
(Adam J. Richter) writes:
>	If the LPF calls for a boycott on AT&T, I won't process the
>3b1 newsgroup or any other AT&T hardware newsgroups.

LPF's will be done.

>	I am not willing to process the Mac and MWC groups under any
>circumstances or to allow my program to be used for that purpose.

Who don't you also show your committment to Free Software (I'm aware that the
FSF and the LPF are different organizations) and copyleft your program ?

Matthias

-----
Matthias Neeracher                                   ne...@iis.ethz.ch
   "The fundamental act of friendship among programmers is the sharing
    of programs." -- Richard Stallman, _The Gnu Manifesto_

Path: gmdzi!unido!math.fu-berlin.de!ox.com!caen!spool.mu.edu!agate!
soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug25.213757.675@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 25 Aug 91 21:37:57 GMT
References: <APPEL.91Aug11224714@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU> 
<1991Aug12.073247.21744@agate.berkeley.edu> <NEERI.91Aug25212421@iis.ethz.ch>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: cc
Lines: 15

In article <NEERI.91Aug25212...@iis.ethz.ch> ne...@iis.ethz.ch 
(Matthias Ulrich Neeracher) writes:
>Who don't you also show your committment to Free Software (I'm aware that the
>FSF and the LPF are different organizations) and copyleft your program ?

	Making a piece of software freely redistributable is usually
a nice thing to do, and I'm willing to help facilitate with the
distribution of some of these pieces of software by posting
information to comp.arhives.  However, I certainly don't think that
anybody has an obligation to make all of their software freely
redistributable, particularly when doing so could have substantial
negative consequences for society.

Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209

Path: gmdzi!unido!unidui!math.fu-berlin.de!ox.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!
soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug25.214341.1387@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 25 Aug 91 21:43:41 GMT
References: <APPEL.91Aug11224714@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU> 
<1991Aug12.073247.21744@agate.berkeley.edu> <NEERI.91Aug25212421@iis.ethz.ch>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: cc
Lines: 15

In article <NEERI.91Aug25212...@iis.ethz.ch> ne...@iis.ethz.ch 
(Matthias Ulrich Neeracher) writes:
>Who don't you also show your committment to Free Software (I'm aware that the
>FSF and the LPF are different organizations) and copyleft your program ?

	Making a piece of software freely redistributable is usually
a nice thing to do, and I'm willing to help facilitate the
distribution of some of these pieces of software by posting
information to comp.arhives.  However, I certainly don't think that
anybody has an obligation to make all of their software freely
redistributable, particularly when doing so could have substantial
negative consequences for society.

Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209

Path: gmdzi!unido!fauern!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!think.com!sdd.hp.com!
news.cs.indiana.edu!maytag!xenitec!iguana!merce
From: me...@iguana.uucp (Jim Mercer)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Aug27.013203.18032@iguana.uucp>
Date: 27 Aug 91 01:32:03 GMT
References: <APPEL.91Aug11224714@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU> 
<1991Aug12.073247.21744@agate.berkeley.edu> <NEERI.91Aug25212421@iis.ethz.ch>
Organization: Ed (the iguana) Memorial Society
Lines: 22

In article <NEERI.91Aug25212...@iis.ethz.ch> ne...@iis.ethz.ch 
(Matthias Ulrich Neeracher) writes:
>In article <1991Aug12.073247.21...@agate.berkeley.edu> a...@soda.berkeley.edu 
(Adam J. Richter) writes:
>>	If the LPF calls for a boycott on AT&T, I won't process the
>>3b1 newsgroup or any other AT&T hardware newsgroups.
>
>LPF's will be done.

i would think that boycotting something from the source (ie. *.att.com) would
have a suitable effect.

boycotting the 3b1 groups would just be further alienating those particular
users.  they've already been pretty much dropped by at&t.

also, if you were to truly boycott AT&T, you would basically have to stop
processing period, since almost all unix is derived directly or indirectly
from at&t/bell labs. 

-- 
[ Jim Mercer   work: j...@lsuc.on.ca  home: me...@iguana.uucp  +1 519 570-3467 ]
[  "In the blackboard jungle, the lunch box, reflecting one's identification  ]
[   with a fashionable character or show, was a passport to either social     ]
[   acceptance or, as in the case of Red Plaid, oblivion." -- Scott Bruce     ]

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!cernvax!chx400!bernina!bernina!neeri
From: ne...@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Ulrich Neeracher)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <NEERI.91Aug31234117@iis.ethz.ch>
Date: 31 Aug 91 21:41:17 GMT
References: <APPEL.91Aug11224714@soda.ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
	<1991Aug12.073247.21744@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<NEERI.91Aug25212421@iis.ethz.ch> <1991Aug27.013203.18032@iguana.uucp>
Sender: n...@bernina.ethz.ch (USENET News System)
Organization: Integrated Systems Laboratory, ETH, Zurich
Lines: 20
In-Reply-To: merce@iguana.uucp's message of 27 Aug 91 01:32:03 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: iis-gw

In article <1991Aug27.013203.18...@iguana.uucp> me...@iguana.uucp (Jim Mercer) 
writes:
>also, if you were to truly boycott AT&T, you would basically have to stop
>processing period, since almost all unix is derived directly or indirectly
>from at&t/bell labs. 

Which leads to a point I (and some others) were trying to make: As I'm not
aware of any major Hardware and/or Operating System vendor that operates
strictly on ethically unobjectionable terms, it seems to be rather unfair to
boycott a limited list of companies and let others get away. What I find
particularly offensive with the LPF boycott list is that it excludes IBM,
although there exists considerable evidence that their rise has been achieved
with a lot of monopolistic muscle (for literature supporting my paranoid
ramblings, read DeLamarter, _Big Blue_).

Matthias

-----
Matthias Neeracher                                   ne...@iis.ethz.ch
   "There once was an Age of Reason, but we've progressed beyond it."
                                   -- Ayn Rand, _Atlas Shrugged_

Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!soda.berkeley.edu!adam
From: a...@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J Richter)
Newsgroups: comp.archives.admin
Subject: Re: What is being excluded from comp.archives
Message-ID: <1991Sep1.112028.25773@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 1 Sep 91 11:20:28 GMT
References: <NEERI.91Aug25212421@iis.ethz.ch> <1991Aug27.013203.18032@iguana.uucp> 
<NEERI.91Aug31234117@iis.ethz.ch>
Sender: use...@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator)
Organization: cc
Lines: 29

In article <NEERI.91Aug31234...@iis.ethz.ch> ne...@iis.ethz.ch 
(Matthias Ulrich Neeracher) writes:
>Which leads to a point I (and some others) were trying to make: As I'm not
>aware of any major Hardware and/or Operating System vendor that operates
>strictly on ethically unobjectionable terms, it seems to be rather unfair to
>boycott a limited list of companies and let others get away.

	It is not the purpose of the LPF's boycotts to dispense a
precise measure of punitive justice, but rather to induce offenders
to reform and to deter potential offenders.

	Your argument also raises a number of issues having to do
with the question of what _fairness_ is and what makes it important
or unimportant in various contexts, but I won't get into those
arguments for now.

>What I find
>particularly offensive with the LPF boycott list is that it excludes IBM,
>although there exists considerable evidence that their rise has been achieved
>with a lot of monopolistic muscle (for literature supporting my paranoid
>ramblings, read DeLamarter, _Big Blue_).

	The LPF is not concerned with all uses of "monopolistic muscle,"
nor is it sensible for any organization to boycott some company that
apparently isn't doing anything wrong at the moment.  After all, the
idea of a boycott is to change the target's current behavior.

Adam J. Richter			a...@soda.berkeley.edu
409 Evelyn Avenue, Apt. 312	....!ucbvax!soda!adam
Albany, CA 94706		Home: (415)528-3209