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Path: sparky!uunet!darwin.sura.net!mips!atha!canada!lyndon
From: lyn...@ampr.ab.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd
Subject: Funding 4.4BSD Development
Message-ID: <79@ampr.ab.ca>
Date: 25 Jun 92 21:52:28 GMT
Organization: Alberta Packet Radio Network
Lines: 19

Before everyone throws their money away trying to keep CSRG alive,
consider that the way every gov't institution works makes it impossible
for us to "fund" the CSRG. Any money sent to UCB goes into the general
revenue fund (at least that's the way it works at every gov't and
post-secondary institution I have dealt with). It would be damned
near impossible to work something out to get the money directly into
CSRG unless you had enough of it to make the Regents or the Governing
Council sit up and take notice. Note that a few hundred thousand dollars
probably won't even make them blink.

It you want to see BSD continue as a living entity, take your money
down to the BSDI folks and exchange it for a distribution tape.

At this point BSDI and CSRG aren't really that different. Yes, BSDI is
in it for the bucks, but then again BSD from UCB was never really "free"
either. We payed via the license fee, and the money that lets UCB operate
to begin with doesn't come out of thin air.

TANSTAAFL.

Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd
Path: sparky!uunet!think.com!ames!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!
fcom.cc.utah.edu!
gateway.univel.com!gateway.novell.com!thisbe!terry
From: t...@thisbe.npd.Novell.COM (Terry Lambert)
Subject: Re: Funding 4.4BSD Development
Message-ID: <1992Jun26.021947.28286@gateway.novell.com>
Sender: terry@thisbe (Terry Lambert)
Nntp-Posting-Host: thisbe.eng.sandy.novell.com
Organization: Novell NPD -- Sandy, UT
References:  <79@ampr.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1992 02:19:47 GMT
Lines: 59

In article <7...@ampr.ab.ca>, lyn...@ampr.ab.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) writes:
|> At this point BSDI and CSRG aren't really that different. Yes, BSDI is
|> in it for the bucks, but then again BSD from UCB was never really "free"
|> either. We payed via the license fee, and the money that lets UCB operate
|> to begin with doesn't come out of thin air.

1)	CSRG sources are freely redistributable.

2)	BSDI sources are a trade from one encumbered set of files (from AT&T)
	to another set of encumbered files (from BSDI).

3)	The great attraction of CSRG is that I can freely distribute my hacks
	of their sources and thus look like a nice guy (8-)).  Since I have
	SVR3.* and SVR4.* source licenses, I don't care about getting sources
	to BSDI's ideas of the "correct" files; I can have CSRG's, no problem;
	what advantage does BSDI give me?  With sources, I can be my own
	support service.

4)	As you say, given that UCB is a publicly supported University, and we
	paid to let UCB operate in the first place.  Question:  How does it
	make sense to pay BSDI, yet again for the same service?

5)	Everyone who has paid a license fee for the BSD sources, which has,
	lately, been more of a Kermit style distribution charge/donation,
	has put money toward the work on BSD, work which BSDI is directly
	benefitting from in their product.

6)	As has already been pointed out, and probably will be again, BSDI is
	rumored to be planning to provide source for only those items which
	have been, by virtue of "copyleft", required to be freely available:
	ie: a binary BDSI/source BSD distribution.

7)	BSDI has benefitted from the efforts of a large number of people in
	this group, who have also provided code, "CSRG style", without hooks
	on use in a commercial product.


I am not against anyone making a buck from public code which they have
modified and put effort into; I am simply pointing out the glaring holes in
your argument.  BSDI and CSRG are certainly different.  For what I would use
the source for (teaching and reference, as well as a basis for derivative
works), BSDI simply doesn't cut it.  It's place is as a fine product to keep
BSD alive in the marketplace as a viable alternative to megaconstructs like
SVR4, and for the individual tinker and contract diff-provider for embedded
applications requiring a changed UNIX kernel.  Mt. XINU has done this sort
of thing for a long time.  If BSD UNIX is to be a commercial success, BSDI
certainly offers impossible-to-live-without-in-commercial-UNIX *support*!
But I`m not going to buy it if I can't, 1 year down the pike, show everything
to a CS student, or have an undergraduate port it to a VAXStation 3100 as a
3 quarter project.

		My two cent's worth (making a total of four, for today),

					Terry Lambert
					terry_lamb...@gateway.novell.com
					t...@icarus.weber.edu
---
Disclaimer:  Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of
my present or previous employers.

Path: sparky!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ames!pasteur!
hermes.Berkeley.EDU!bostic
From: bos...@hermes.Berkeley.EDU (Keith Bostic)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd
Subject: Re: Funding 4.4BSD Development
Message-ID: <1992Jun29.175021.8142@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 29 Jun 92 17:50:21 GMT
References: <1992Jun25.234031.6037@kithrup.COM> 
< VIXIE.92Jun27111848@adelphi.pa.dec.com> 
<57926@mimsy.umd.edu>
Sender: n...@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU (NNTP Poster)
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 37
Nntp-Posting-Host: hermes.berkeley.edu

Let me talk about the who/what/where of NET/2, so that we don't start
more rumors about who did what to whom in a vicious, but evil plot N
years ago.

Also, my memory is as bad as most people's and worse than some, and I'm
not going to paw through email from four years ago until the subpoena's
in my hands.  So, these are my recollections, worth what you're paying
for them, and they're probably not too far wrong.

The freely redistributable pieces of 4.3BSD-Reno were placed on-line by
UUNET.  I don't remember when or where the deal got made, but Rick Adams
and John Gilmore and I, and I'm sure some other people, talked it over,
thought it was a good idea and did it.  Since there wasn't a freely
redistributable release available from the University at the time, there's
no issue as to when UUNET made it available.

The NET/1 release was made in November of 1988, and was immediately placed
online by UUNET.

The Net/2 release was made in July of 1991.  UUNET did not immediately
place it online, and there are two reasons for the delay.

First, since UUNET is reachable from non-domestic sites, Rick had to wait
until the GTDA license for the NET/2 release was approved.  (Don't ask me
about all the ramifications of various licenses, it's amazingly complex.
Suffice it to say that the GTDA license made NET/2 freely redistributable
outside of the US.)  I got the GTDA license in November of 1991, so there's
no way that Rick should have placed NET/2 online before then.

Second, the CSRG explicitly asked Rick to not place NET/2 online or include
it in the UUNET source distributions for an unspecified time so that we
could make some money from the release.  Rick agreed to this request.   Once
other organizations (who refused our request to not make NET/2 part of their
distributions for a few months) started making NET/2 available, Rick quite
reasonably wanted to do so as well, and we agreed.

--keith

Path: sparky!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!pasteur!hermes.Berkeley.EDU!bostic
From: bos...@hermes.Berkeley.EDU (Keith Bostic)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd
Subject: Re: Funding 4.4BSD Development
Message-ID: <1992Jul1.003912.16115@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 1 Jul 92 00:39:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: pasteur.1992Jul1.003912.16115
References: <18729@plains.NoDak.edu> <1992Jun27.160309.21709@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> 
<1992Jun30.103533.5424@eng.ufl.edu>
Sender: n...@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU (NNTP Poster)
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 36
Nntp-Posting-Host: hermes.berkeley.edu

First, we want to express our appreciation for all the suggestions that
have been made in this newsgroup for various ways of funding the CSRG.
We haven't been able to respond to everyone personally, but we want you
to know that we appreciate your offers and the good wishes that accompanied
them!  Thanks!

Second, I don't think it would be a good idea for me to work on an effort
to fund the CSRG through net contributions, for several reasons.  To be
perfectly honest, I don't have the time, and it's not something at which
I'd be very good.  If someone else makes the effort, however, we will
gladly accept any funding that will enable us to make 4.4BSD cleaner and
more stable.

As Sean Fagan said, we can be funded as a "gift", which means that the
University gets approximately 2% of the money and we get the rest.  So,
any contributions will go directly to pay for work on 4.4BSD.  Also, since
the University is a tax exempt non-profit institution, any gift is tax
deductible.  The letter accompanying the contribution should say be
something like:

	Enclosed is a gift in the amount of ___ which is given to
	CSRG as an unrestricted gift to further its research goals.

The check itself should be made out to ``The Regents of the University of
California'', and mailed to:

	Keith Bostic
	457 Evans Hall
	Dept. of EECS
	University of California
	Berkeley, CA  94720

We'll post to this newsgroup and let you know how this rather unorthodox
funding effort works!

Keith Bostic

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