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From: gav...@spades.aces.com (Ehud Gavron)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Date: 8 Dec 1993 15:14 MST
Organization: ACES Research Inc.
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Distribution: world
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Reply-To: gav...@ACES.COM
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Recently the DECUS US chapter has shown itself incapable of providing
adequate services, pleasing its members, or making a profit.
In a fit of self-dismissal, DECUS paid officials removed the volunteers
but kept their salaries intact.
Maybe it's time we changed this TRULY-non-profit organization into
nothing and created a NEW organization run by people who know what
they're doing... and aren't in bed with DEC. Maybe we can even get
an organization that dates MicroSoft, Sun, DEC, and others on an
equal footing... and is beholden to none.
Please respond in News. I'm wondering if I'm the only one who's tired
of seeing an 8,000 people conference with breakfasts, nice hotels,
Wednesday night activies, and QUALITY become a mockery of a mini-
conference...
Ehud
--
Ehud Gavron (EG76)
gav...@aces.com
p.s. None of this is meant at Jeff Killeen personally, nor at any
other person. I just think DECUS has been killed by the same
lack of brains that is killing Digital.
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From: kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Message-ID: <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner>
Date: 9 Dec 93 02:43:10 -0500
References: <8DEC199315144313@spades.aces.com>
Organization: DECUServe
Lines: 37
In article <8DEC1993...@spades.aces.com>,
gav...@spades.aces.com (Ehud Gavron) writes:
> In a fit of self-dismissal, DECUS paid officials removed the volunteers
> but kept their salaries intact.
A point of clarification - this plan was driven by the 6 elected volunteer
directors, the 2 volunteer delegate, and the paid Digital delegate. No one
from Digital pressured this. It was $$$$ that drove it.
> Maybe it's time we changed this TRULY-non-profit organization into
> nothing and created a NEW organization run by people who know what
> they're doing... and aren't in bed with DEC. Maybe we can even get
> an organization that dates MicroSoft, Sun, DEC, and others on an
> equal footing... and is beholden to none.
Isn't this already COMDEX and INTEROP? - except for the non-profit part
> Please respond in News. I'm wondering if I'm the only one who's tired
> of seeing an 8,000 people conference with breakfasts, nice hotels,
> Wednesday night activies, and QUALITY become a mockery of a mini-
> conference...
Nice hotels continue, the Wednesday night activities will return in Anaheim
(i.e. Disneyland), free breakfasts won't be coming back. I also want to see
audio taping and full sack sitter services back. I am not cooking the books
but between the Symposia, Seminars, and Tradeshow over 7,000 folks are
attending the event this week.
However isn't the real issue not the logistics but the content and the
opportunity interact with your peers? If so what content and peer interaction
opportunities are missing and what needs to be improved? There is a whole new
volunteer management team place. This team has none of the handicaps the old
team that kept them from implementing rapid change. Now is a good time for
input and it wanted.
--
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter - Chapter marketing | EMAIL:...@decus.org
| FAX:508.478.9889
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From: p...@euclid.JPL.NASA.GOV (Peter J. Scott)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Date: 12 Dec 1993 03:37:06 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2ee3l2$5gj@netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov>
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In article <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner>,
kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN) writes:
> I am not cooking the books
> but between the Symposia, Seminars, and Tradeshow over 7,000 folks are
> attending the event this week.
But you are hiding the fact that the symposium registration was only
3,600, the lowest fall attendance I've heard of. That is the figure
traditionally used for benchmarking.
--
This is news. This is your | Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech
brain on news. Any questions? | (p...@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov)
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From: kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Message-ID: <1993Dec12.011815.1555@eisner>
Date: 12 Dec 93 01:18:15 -0500
References: <8DEC199315144313@spades.aces.com> <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner>
<2ee3l2$5gj@netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov>
Distribution: world
Organization: DECUServe
Lines: 21
In article <2ee3l2$5...@netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov>,
p...@euclid.JPL.NASA.GOV (Peter J. Scott) writes:
> In article <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner>,
> kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN) writes:
>> I am not cooking the books
>> but between the Symposia, Seminars, and Tradeshow over 7,000 folks are
>> attending the event this week.
>
> But you are hiding the fact that the symposium registration was only
> 3,600, the lowest fall attendance I've heard of. That is the figure
> traditionally used for benchmarking.
I am dealing with the fact that the DECUS national event is not just Symposia
anymore. The final numbers were 7,500 plus folks registered. There are
shifts occuring in the population of the national event.
The interesting thing is that there is still more than enough revenue from the
national event to support itself. The problem that had to be addressed was
there was no longer enough revenue to support the overhead.
--
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter - Chapter marketing | EMAIL:...@decus.org
| FAX:508.478.9889
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From: k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Date: 13 Dec 1993 22:27:32 -0500
Organization: Hadron.com in exile
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In article <1993Dec12.011815.1555@eisner>,
JEFF KILLEEN <kil...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
[stuff deleted]
>
>The interesting thing is that there is still more than enough revenue from the
>national event to support itself. The problem that had to be addressed was
>there was no longer enough revenue to support the overhead.
>
What a lovely clinical term, "the overhead". Almost as cynical
as Tom McIntyre of the US Chapter BoD stating at the
leadership (X-leadership) meeting on Saturday the 4th, that the
volunteer leadership "had not been fired, we had been laid-off".
Would you like to clarify what "the overhead" consists of:
- the Symposium Committee
- the SIG Council
- the NLC and support for the LUGS
- the volunteer staff of the Update.Daily
- the Seminars Committee
- any other volunteer positions and committees?
These are the same people who made the symposium, they are not "the
overhead". They contributed to the spirit and financial health of the
chapter. The overhead is higher up the food chain.
And, what are the volunteers to be replaced with? Paid
professionals, and the DECUS Staff (who, being asked to do more,
must do it with less, as there were rumors of a layoff in the
DECUS office this week). And, the Board has selected a team of
volunteers to form a knowledge base to help the professionals.
Meanwhile, the bulk of that knowledge base is in shock.
And what of "the overhead", who was so unceremoniously dumped?
They were told that they were expected to continue on, as if
nothing had happened, so that the San Francisco symposium could
be successful. This they did. They were told they had to help
ensure that the New Orleans symposium, which had been yanked out
of their hands, would be successful. The jury is still out on
that one.
And, no one told them "thank you".
--
Kurt Reisler (UNISIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
Only a guest at k...@umbc4.umbc.edu
Are creative spellings like a patentable life form?
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From: kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Message-ID: <1993Dec13.234705.1569@eisner>
Date: 13 Dec 93 23:47:05 -0500
References: <8DEC199315144313@spades.aces.com> <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner>
<2ejbr4INNs87@umbc7.umbc.edu>
Organization: DECUServe
Lines: 26
In article <2ejbr4...@umbc7.umbc.edu>, k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
> Would you like to clarify what "the overhead" consists of:
>
> - the Symposium Committee
> - the SIG Council
> - the NLC and support for the LUGS
> - the volunteer staff of the Update.Daily
> - the Seminars Committee
> - any other volunteer positions and committees?
>
> These are the same people who made the symposium,
I know this is a painful observation for those of us that were just fired but
the people who make Symposium are the technical providers. It is the speakers
the membership truly value. (and yes I was fired also - what happened to the
LUGs hurt a lot)
> And, no one told them "thank you".
Kurt you will get no argument out of me that last week's implementation was
total leadership failure by the BOD. I happened to agree with 75 percent of
their vision but their implementation process was very very painful to watch.
--
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter - Chapter marketing | EMAIL:...@decus.org
| FAX:508.478.9889
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
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From: m...@rayssd.ssd.ray.com (Barone)
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Message-ID: <CI1otJ.916@rayssd.ssd.ray.com>
Organization: Raytheon Submarine Signal Division
References: <8DEC199315144313@spades.aces.com> <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 21:53:42 GMT
Lines: 34
In article <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner> kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF
KILLEEN) writes:
> Nice hotels continue, the Wednesday night activities will return in Anaheim
> (i.e. Disneyland), free breakfasts won't be coming back. I also want to see
> audio taping and full sack sitter services back. I am not cooking the books
> but between the Symposia, Seminars, and Tradeshow over 7,000 folks are
> attending the event this week.
What hasn't been mentioned yet is that the sessions will end each
night at 5 or 6 PM. No more VMS Magic or Networks Jeopardy and the such.
The "fun" part has been cut out. Also, if 7000 people attended, why did
I continually hear $800,000 bandied about when it came to DECUS' losses
for this symposium. Further, the SIGs and LUGs have lost all funding,
which guarantees that much of the volunteer structure will whither as LUGs
dry up by the droves. If a better, transitional plan had been in place,
this probably would not be happening. If liability is transferred to
the LUGs, as implied (or stated -- I have yet to read anything on this),
then even finanically viable LUGs are going to cease to exist. (How many
people will feel like dealing with tax law and such to incorporate --
effectively becoming a company for free?)
The main problem I had was that I had to rely on rumors and innuendos
as my source of information about what was going on. (I arrived at my
hotel around 4:30 and was too tired to attend the BoD meeting. But then
again, no one indicated that important proclamations would be announced.)
At no point during the symposium did the BoD try to do some damage control
and invite LUGs and SIGs to some type of meeting to clarify things. One
couldn't help but feel the atmosphere of resentment and anger as many
people walked about the symposium with shredded ribbons on their badges.
I can't help but feel betrayed.
--
Joe Barone
m...@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
CRIMLUG Chair
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From: kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Message-ID: <1993Dec15.082909.1581@eisner>
Date: 15 Dec 93 08:29:09 -0500
References: <8DEC199315144313@spades.aces.com> <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner>
<CI1otJ.916@rayssd.ssd.ray.com>
Organization: DECUServe
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In article <CI1ot...@rayssd.ssd.ray.com>, m...@rayssd.ssd.ray.com (Barone) writes:
> In article <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner> kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF
> KILLEEN) writes:
>> Nice hotels continue, the Wednesday night activities will return in Anaheim
>> (i.e. Disneyland), free breakfasts won't be coming back. I also want to see
>> audio taping and full sack sitter services back. I am not cooking the books
>> but between the Symposia, Seminars, and Tradeshow over 7,000 folks are
>> attending the event this week.
>
> What hasn't been mentioned yet is that the sessions will end each
> night at 5 or 6 PM. No more VMS Magic or Networks Jeopardy and the such.
> The "fun" part has been cut out.
The evening sessions have been eliminated. It does not necessarily follow that
fun has also been cut. I have seen discussions about desire to keep VMS
magic.
> Also, if 7000 people attended, why did
> I continually hear $800,000 bandied about when it came to DECUS' losses
> for this symposium.
Because a large number of those folks were Tradeshow only folks which
generates minimal registration fees.
> Further, the SIGs and LUGs have lost all funding,
> which guarantees that much of the volunteer structure will whither as LUGs
> dry up by the droves. If a better, transitional plan had been in place,
> this probably would not be happening. If liability is transferred to
> the LUGs, as implied (or stated -- I have yet to read anything on this),
> then even finanically viable LUGs are going to cease to exist. (How many
> people will feel like dealing with tax law and such to incorporate --
> effectively becoming a company for free?)
All good questions. There are Board members who have suggested that we are
being alarmist when _we_ suggest LUGs will "dry up by the droves". That it is
only the "marginal" LUGs that will fail and the rest will survive.
--
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter - Chapter marketing | EMAIL:...@decus.org
| FAX:508.478.9889
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From: k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Date: 15 Dec 1993 22:46:58 -0500
Organization: Hadron.com in exile
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Message-ID: <2eolniINNqef@umbc7.umbc.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc7.umbc.edu
In article <1993Dec13.234705.1569@eisner>,
JEFF KILLEEN <kil...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>In article <2ejbr4...@umbc7.umbc.edu>, k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
>> Would you like to clarify what "the overhead" consists of:
>>
>> - the Symposium Committee
>> - the SIG Council
>> - the NLC and support for the LUGS
>> - the volunteer staff of the Update.Daily
>> - the Seminars Committee
>> - any other volunteer positions and committees?
>>
>> These are the same people who made the symposium,
>
>I know this is a painful observation for those of us that were just fired but
>the people who make Symposium are the technical providers. It is the speakers
>the membership truly value. (and yes I was fired also - what happened to the
>LUGs hurt a lot)
It just so happens that a lot of the volunteers who "put on the
symposium" are also the technical providers. They do both
sessions and seminars. So they did both, made the venue possible,
and provided the sessions.
And, while I recognize that you were fired as NLC chair, I also
note that you were on the first list of those who were
immediately "re-hired" by the BoD to handle marketing, which is
what I think you were responsible for on the MC as well. So, you
are not exactly "out in the cold" as a lot of the other volunteer
leadership are.
>> And, no one told them "thank you".
>
>Kurt you will get no argument out of me that last week's implementation was
>total leadership failure by the BOD. I happened to agree with 75 percent of
>their vision but their implementation process was very very painful to watch.
It was a lot more than painful, it was sickening to see what was
done to the volunteers, providers and leadership of the US
Chapter. It was also amazing that no consideration was given to
the effects that the decisions by the US Chapter BoD would have
on the other DECUS Chapters, world-wide.
--
Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
Only a guest at klr@.umbc.edu
Are creative spellings like a patentable life form?
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From: kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Message-ID: <1993Dec16.000135.1590@eisner>
Date: 16 Dec 93 00:01:35 -0500
References: <8DEC199315144313@spades.aces.com> <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner>
<2ejbr4INNs87@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1993Dec13.234705.1569@eisner>
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In article <2eolni...@umbc7.umbc.edu>, k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
> And, while I recognize that you were fired as NLC chair, I also
> note that you were on the first list of those who were
> immediately "re-hired" by the BoD to handle marketing, which is
> what I think you were responsible for on the MC as well. So, you
> are not exactly "out in the cold" as a lot of the other volunteer
> leadership are.
Kurt I had a lot of LUG folks coming up to me all week asking me very
important questions for which I had no answers. It was a very painful week
for me. It still is painful watching the LUGs erode basically when a few
minor actions could save most of them.
--
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter - Chapter marketing | EMAIL:...@decus.org
| FAX:508.478.9889
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From: k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Date: 16 Dec 1993 11:44:48 -0500
Organization: Hadron.com in exile
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Message-ID: <2eq3a0INNfnl@umbc7.umbc.edu>
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In article <1993Dec16.000135.1590@eisner>,
JEFF KILLEEN <kil...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>
>Kurt I had a lot of LUG folks coming up to me all week asking me very
>important questions for which I had no answers. It was a very painful week
>for me. It still is painful watching the LUGs erode basically when a few
>minor actions could save most of them.
>
It was painful for all of us in leadership. I also think that it was
painful for some of the members of the BoD as well. It is not just the
LUGs that are eroding, it is the entire volunteer structure that the
chapter is founded on.
I am still waiting for answers from the BoD. Meanwhile, I am building a
portfolio of submissions for New Orleans. And, I am looking into
contingency plans, should those submissions not be scheduled.
--
Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
Only a guest at klr@.umbc.edu
Are creative spellings like a patentable life form?
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
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From: m...@rayssd.ssd.ray.com (Barone)
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Message-ID: <CI7Atu.AFq@rayssd.ssd.ray.com>
Organization: Raytheon Submarine Signal Division
References: <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner> <CI1otJ.916@rayssd.ssd.ray.com>
<1993Dec15.082909.1581@eisner>
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 22:37:05 GMT
Lines: 18
In article <1993Dec15.082909.1581@eisner> kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF
KILLEEN) writes:
> > Also, if 7000 people attended, why did
> > I continually hear $800,000 bandied about when it came to DECUS' losses
> > for this symposium.
>
> Because a large number of those folks were Tradeshow only folks which
> generates minimal registration fees.
Should I interpret the lack of refutation to the financial loss
claim as tacit agreement? If so, I believe that you mentioned in another
article that the "national events" were the only viable source of income
for the Chapter. I would appreciate it if you could clarify this
inconsistency in your statements. Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m...@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
CRIMLUG Chair
Path: gmd.de!xlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!eisner!killeen
From: kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: Proposal: A NEW organzation to SUPPLANT DECUS
Message-ID: <1993Dec18.041317.1617@eisner>
Date: 18 Dec 93 04:13:17 -0500
References: <1993Dec9.024310.1547@eisner> <CI1otJ.916@rayssd.ssd.ray.com>
<1993Dec15.082909.1581@eisner> <CI7Atu.AFq@rayssd.ssd.ray.com>
Distribution: na
Organization: DECUServe
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In article <CI7At...@rayssd.ssd.ray.com>, m...@rayssd.ssd.ray.com (Barone) writes:
> In article <1993Dec15.082909.1581@eisner> kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF
> KILLEEN) writes:
>> > Also, if 7000 people attended, why did
>> > I continually hear $800,000 bandied about when it came to DECUS' losses
>> > for this symposium.
>>
>> Because a large number of those folks were Tradeshow only folks which
>> generates minimal registration fees.
>
> Should I interpret the lack of refutation to the financial loss
> claim as tacit agreement? If so, I believe that you mentioned in another
> article that the "national events" were the only viable source of income
> for the Chapter. I would appreciate it if you could clarify this
> inconsistency in your statements. Thanks.
I never commented one way or another that national events were the only viable
source.
DECUS needed about 1.2 million in margin (profit) from San Francisco to cover
the other Chapter operations. We walked away with with about $350,000. The
event did not loose money but that is immaterial. We failed achieve the
profit needed to continue Chapter operations at there old levels. As I have
said the event in and of itself is financially sound.
--
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter - Chapter marketing | EMAIL:...@decus.org
| FAX:508.478.9889