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From: k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: DECUS is an "association"?
Date: 13 Apr 1994 19:21:57 -0400
Organization: Hadron.com in exile
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I found it interesting reading the Blipvert about Robert Palmer's
keynote at the upcoming DECUS Symposium in New Orleans.  It was not
really news, as it was something he said he would do last year while he
was visiting us in Atlanta.  Yes, he could have changed his mind, he is
a busy mind.  I am glad to see he will be there.

What I found interesting was the reference to DECUS as an association of
IT Professionals (or something to that effect).

Is this something "new"?  I had always thought of DECUS as a user group,
as a User Society, not as a "professional association".  To me, the
"user group" is a friendly place for the sharing of technical
information, while the "professional association" (unless it is the
SCA:) is a stodgy group in suits that comes to be lectured at so that
they can state to their bosses that they went and hear "This Big Name"
speak on some "Topic of Current Relevance", before they all went down to
the local bars and got blotto.

Was DECUS always referred to as an association and I was too busy to
notice, or has something else changed and we just have not been told
about it?


-- 
                Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
		  Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
		       Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
	     Are creative spellings like a patentable life form?

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From: kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: DECUS is an "association"?
Message-ID: <1994Apr13.230253.2979@eisner>
Date: 13 Apr 94 23:02:53 -0400
References: <2ohuqlINNp0h@umbc7.umbc.edu>
Organization: DECUServe
Lines: 10

In article <2ohuql...@umbc7.umbc.edu>, k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
> What I found interesting was the reference to DECUS as an association of
> IT Professionals (or something to that effect).

That was the language of the copywriter we hire to put together the marketing 
stuff.  There is _no_ deep message here - period.

--
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter - Chapter marketing  | EMAIL:...@decus.org
                                                       | FAX:508.478.9889

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From: k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: DECUS is an "association"?
Date: 14 Apr 1994 08:28:09 -0400
Organization: Hadron.com in exile
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In article <1994Apr13.230253.2979@eisner>,
JEFF KILLEEN <kil...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>In article <2ohuql...@umbc7.umbc.edu>, k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
>> What I found interesting was the reference to DECUS as an association of
>> IT Professionals (or something to that effect).
>
>That was the language of the copywriter we hire to put together the marketing 
>stuff.  There is _no_ deep message here - period.
>

But, someone had to have approved that language.  And, "deep message"
or not, there is an implication in that language, and that implication
appears to me to be a departure from what DECUS _is_.  Unless this "User
Society" has become a professional association over night, why call it
one?  Why accept the language of a copywriter what was hired to put
together the "marketing stuff"?


-- 
                Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
		  Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
		       Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
	     Are creative spellings like a patentable life form?

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eisner!killeen
From: kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: DECUS is an "association"?
Message-ID: <1994Apr14.222124.3002@eisner>
Date: 14 Apr 94 22:21:24 -0400
References: <2ohuqlINNp0h@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr13.230253.2979@eisner> 
<2ojcspINNfq9@umbc7.umbc.edu>
Organization: DECUServe
Lines: 15

In article <2ojcsp...@umbc7.umbc.edu>, k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
> But, someone had to have approved that language.  And, "deep message"
> or not, there is an implication in that language, and that implication
> appears to me to be a departure from what DECUS _is_.  Unless this "User
> Society" has become a professional association over night, why call it
> one?  Why accept the language of a copywriter what was hired to put
> together the "marketing stuff"?

I approved it - frankly I just saw it as another way of expressing what we are
about.  If I thought it was going to be read in the way you did it would have
been changed.   To quote Freud - sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

--
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter - Chapter marketing  | EMAIL:...@decus.org
                                                       | FAX:508.478.9889

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From: k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: DECUS is an "association"?
Date: 15 Apr 1994 10:02:52 -0400
Organization: Hadron.com in exile
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <2om6qcINNdgi@umbc7.umbc.edu>
References: <2ohuqlINNp0h@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr13.230253.2979@eisner> 
<2ojcspINNfq9@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr14.222124.3002@eisner>
NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc7.umbc.edu

In article <1994Apr14.222124.3002@eisner>,
JEFF KILLEEN <kil...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>In article <2ojcsp...@umbc7.umbc.edu>, k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
>> But, someone had to have approved that language.  And, "deep message"
>> or not, there is an implication in that language, and that implication
>> appears to me to be a departure from what DECUS _is_.  Unless this "User
>> Society" has become a professional association over night, why call it
>> one?  Why accept the language of a copywriter what was hired to put
>> together the "marketing stuff"?
>
>I approved it - frankly I just saw it as another way of expressing what we are
>about.  If I thought it was going to be read in the way you did it would have
>been changed.   To quote Freud - sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
>

And that shows a flaw in the current system.  There is a single point of
failure.  When I put together one of my "position statements" (i.e.
something other than an response like this), I spend a lot of time
circulating through the UNIX SIG BoD and other reviewers.  I take their
comments and criticisms (and some of it is rather harsh, because friends
can beat up friends and stay friends) seriously and revise and
recirculate until we have something we feel is good. 

In the case of the copywriter, I am sure that they generated what they
felt you wanted to see, and of course it was something you would feel
comfortable with.  But, you need to examine it from all sides, and also
see it as someone else would.  That is very difficult for an individual
to do.  And, thanks to the BoD efforts, we are now being directed by a
large number of single, separate views.  We live in a world of
perceptions, and mine are different than yours, and ours are different
than any other individual's out there.

Sometimes a cigar is just a foul smelling source of pollution (and I
used to enjoy the occasional good cigar...of course there are those who
feel that "good cigar" is an oxymoron as well).

"It is too nice out to go to work, I feel a brief bout spring fever" :-)

-- 
                Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
		  Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
		       Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
	     Are creative spellings like a patentable life form?

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From: kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: DECUS is an "association"?
Message-ID: <1994Apr15.173103.3010@eisner>
Date: 15 Apr 94 17:31:03 -0400
References: <2ohuqlINNp0h@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr13.230253.2979@eisner> 
<2ojcspINNfq9@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr14.222124.3002@eisner> 
<2om6qcINNdgi@umbc7.umbc.edu>
Organization: DECUServe
Lines: 50

In article <2om6qc...@umbc7.umbc.edu>, k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
> And that shows a flaw in the current system.  There is a single point of
> failure.  When I put together one of my "position statements" (i.e.
> something other than an response like this), I spend a lot of time
> circulating through the UNIX SIG BoD and other reviewers.  I take their
> comments and criticisms (and some of it is rather harsh, because friends
> can beat up friends and stay friends) seriously and revise and
> recirculate until we have something we feel is good. 
> 
> In the case of the copywriter, I am sure that they generated what they
> felt you wanted to see, and of course it was something you would feel
> comfortable with.  But, you need to examine it from all sides, and also
> see it as someone else would.  That is very difficult for an individual
> to do.  And, thanks to the BoD efforts, we are now being directed by a
> large number of single, separate views.  We live in a world of
> perceptions, and mine are different than yours, and ours are different
> than any other individual's out there.

I see little difference Kurt.  In this case our professionals went out talked
to members, ran key themes by the members,  phone surveyed members as to what
there hot technical issues were, and actually used the voice of the member in
the writing.  The process that lead to the end document was very much a
collective process.  Key parts where sanity checked along the way.  Personally
for this type of activity I prefer this type of sanity checking rather than
using a closed circle of friends.  Each has its advantage and each has its
weaknesses.  There was no more a single point of failure here than there was
in your process.  At some point you made the decision it was good enough to
ship - that is all I did. 

Perhaps you don't understand the role of a function head.  The role is a
reactive one and not a pro-active one.  I review what is presented and sign
off on it or don't sign off on it - it isn't my job to sit there and produce
or to spell out in detail how it should be produced.  My main concern is to
keep an eye on the process so that it stays an honest one.  I know there are
folks who don't understand that because it is very much counter cultural to
the old DECUS where volunteers did the work.  Many assume that what has happen
is business is still being done in the same way by a small group of
volunteers.  That simply isn't the case and to think that fails to grasp the 
changes that have been made.

Kurt I find it interesting that you won't accept from the folks involved that
there was nothing behind the way you read the words.  Especially given the
wide variety of the ways English words can be interpreted.  The reason I find
it interesting is you seem to be doing here the very thing you are beating up
on the BOD about on DCS - the inability to back away from something because to
do so would give the appearance of admitting a mistake. 

--
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter - Chapter marketing  | EMAIL:...@decus.org
                                                       | FAX:508.478.9889

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From: k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: DECUS is an "association"?
Date: 15 Apr 1994 23:29:24 -0400
Organization: Hadron.com in exile
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <2onm2kINNj8m@umbc7.umbc.edu>
References: <2ohuqlINNp0h@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr14.222124.3002@eisner> 
<2om6qcINNdgi@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr15.173103.3010@eisner>
NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc7.umbc.edu

In article <1994Apr15.173103.3010@eisner>,
JEFF KILLEEN <kil...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>Kurt I find it interesting that you won't accept from the folks involved that
>there was nothing behind the way you read the words.  Especially given the
>wide variety of the ways English words can be interpreted.  The reason I find
>it interesting is you seem to be doing here the very thing you are beating up
>on the BOD about on DCS - the inability to back away from something because to
>do so would give the appearance of admitting a mistake. 

So far, you have not convinced me that I am wrong.  First you state the
decision was yours, next you expand to state the decision was made with
outside input.  Anything else you would like to clarify?

I will accept that there is noting behind the words.  They mean what
they mean, and they are incorrect.

Back to the original issue.  Your copy states that DECUS is an
association of IT professionals.  Many of us members of the US Chapter
seem to think that DECUS is a User Society.  That is what the "US" 
stands for isn't it?


-- 
                Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
		  Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
		       Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
	     Are creative spellings like a patentable life form?

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killeen
From: kil...@eisner.decus.org (JEFF KILLEEN)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: DECUS is an "association"?
Message-ID: <1994Apr16.085927.3014@eisner>
Date: 16 Apr 94 08:59:27 -0400
References: <2ohuqlINNp0h@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr14.222124.3002@eisner> 
<2om6qcINNdgi@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr15.173103.3010@eisner> 
<2onm2kINNj8m@umbc7.umbc.edu>
Organization: DECUServe
Lines: 44

In article <2onm2k...@umbc7.umbc.edu>, k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
> So far, you have not convinced me that I am wrong.  First you state the
> decision was yours, next you expand to state the decision was made with
> outside input.  Anything else you would like to clarify?

They original question you asked me was who signed off on this - it was me.  
Then you raised another issue about process.  How the thing was put together 
and who had the pro forma sign off.

> I will accept that there is noting behind the words.  They mean what
> they mean, and they are incorrect.
> 
> Back to the original issue.  Your copy states that DECUS is an
> association of IT professionals.  Many of us members of the US Chapter
> seem to think that DECUS is a User Society.  That is what the "US" 
> stands for isn't it?

I know the BOD's thinking is DECUS is a User Society for individuals who
deliver Information Technology in Digital and Digital related environments. 

Why certain words are used...

	User Society - They believe DECUS is about relationships.  In fact
			they believed that was working so well they didn't
			need to worry about it when the re-org happened.

	individuals - DECUS is about people and not companies.

	who deliver - This is a key phrase - note it doesn't say "who use".
			It is for the folks who understand how to deliver
			technology in their organization.  The providers
			of technology.

	Information Technology - As we move into multi-media and the 
					information super highway we are
					moving beyond just computing.

	Digital and Digital Related - Meaning the center of the universe
					is still Digital but it is now a
					large universe.

--
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter - Chapter marketing  | EMAIL:...@decus.org
                                                       | FAX:508.478.9889

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From: k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: DECUS is an "association"?
Date: 16 Apr 1994 15:13:40 -0400
Organization: Hadron.com in exile
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <2opdd4INN23v@umbc7.umbc.edu>
References: <2ohuqlINNp0h@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr15.173103.3010@eisner> 
<2onm2kINNj8m@umbc7.umbc.edu> <1994Apr16.085927.3014@eisner>
NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc7.umbc.edu

In article <1994Apr16.085927.3014@eisner>,
JEFF KILLEEN <kil...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>In article <2onm2k...@umbc7.umbc.edu>, k...@umbc.edu (Kurt Reisler) writes:
>> So far, you have not convinced me that I am wrong.  First you state the
>> decision was yours, next you expand to state the decision was made with
>> outside input.  Anything else you would like to clarify?
>
>They original question you asked me was who signed off on this - it was me.  
>Then you raised another issue about process.  How the thing was put together 
>and who had the pro forma sign off.

You are right, and I appologize.  The process is not really the issue
here, it is the words.

>> Back to the original issue.  Your copy states that DECUS is an
>> association of IT professionals.  Many of us members of the US Chapter
>> seem to think that DECUS is a User Society.  That is what the "US" 
>> stands for isn't it?
>
>I know the BOD's thinking is DECUS is a User Society for individuals who
>deliver Information Technology in Digital and Digital related environments. 

Naw, I won't ask it.  Too nice a day...

>	Information Technology - As we move into multi-media and the 
>					information super highway we are
>					moving beyond just computing.

Somehow, the "Information Highway Road Kill" button comes to mind :-)






-- 
                Kurt Reisler (UNIX SIG Chair, DECUS US Chapter)
		  Captain, UNISIG International Luge Team
		       Only a guest at k...@umbc.edu
	     Are creative spellings like a patentable life form?

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