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From: ne...@nevermind.kiev.ua (Alexandr Kovalenko)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:54:20 +0000 (UTC)
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I don't think that reason for removing dillon@'s commit bit is very
secret. Why it was not publishied, only Message-Id: from closed
developers@ list?

I think we (FreeBSD users/contributors community) need to know why. I
suspect it was a some internal war (maybe offending postings/commit
logs/etc) I don't know exactly what it was. I don't think it was enough
to remove his commit bit. With that reason we then should also remove
obrien@'s commit bit (he also was a little bit offending sometimes).

But, I think it is not the right way to solve any problems. We are
living in civilized world, we have tongue, not fingers (to commit
removal from access) to solve conflicts.

Please, either disclose the reason for dillon@'s commit bit removal with
explanations or give it back to him or I will switch to linux.

P.S. Dillon, thank you for you work and I hope that you will continue to
help improving it. Your patch for unionfs works perfectly here in almost
production environment!

-- 
NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food
Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group
http://uafug.org.ua/

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From: rs...@online.fr (Rahul Siddharthan)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:22:50 +0000 (UTC)
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Alexandr Kovalenko <ne...@nevermind.kiev.ua> wrote:
> I don't think that reason for removing dillon@'s commit bit is very
> secret. Why it was not publishied, only Message-Id: from closed
> developers@ list?

While I hate to pick up on a topic first posted by the project's pet
troll, I have to second Alexandr here.  As a longtime user I certainly
want to know: what's going on?

Dillon isn't any ordinary committer -- he is perhaps the guy most
responsible for making FreeBSD 4.x the most rugged and stress-proof
free operating system in existence.  (Not to mention his indirect
contributions to fixing the linux VM: his reputation extends beyond
FreeBSD.)  The mailing list archives offer no clue.  Surely some
explanation, and not just to developers@, is required when his name is
scratched out.  

- Rahul

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From: d...@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:01:48 +0000 (UTC)
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Rahul Siddharthan <rs...@online.fr> writes:
> [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed]

Short version: there was a difference of opinions.

As for the long version - there are probably as many versions of this
story as there are people involved in it.

My advice is to let it lie.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - d...@ofug.org

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From: rag...@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:36:56 +0000 (UTC)
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On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:

> Rahul Siddharthan <rs...@online.fr> writes:
> > [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed]
>
> Short version: there was a difference of opinions.
>
> As for the long version - there are probably as many versions of this
> story as there are people involved in it.
>
> My advice is to let it lie.

So Matt Dillon, after spending gobs of time learning all that Dyson did
for us (yet another VM guru driven out), and then improving on it gets the
same treatment in the end?  John left on his own terms, but from an
outside observer's view, it was pretty obvious he wasn't missed in -core
by very many.

Jamie Bowden

-- 
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <ala...@alaric.org.uk>



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From: rwat...@freebsd.org (Robert Watson)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:41:53 +0000 (UTC)
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On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:

> Rahul Siddharthan <rs...@online.fr> writes:
> > [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed]
> 
> Short version: there was a difference of opinions. 

I think there should be "short version", but that this is not quite it.

The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow
developers with the civility and respect that they deserve.  The FreeBSD
Project attempts to foster a productive environment for development; sure,
as with any online community, it's going to have its share of
disagreements and occasional flames.  It's hard to imagine any e-mail list
without occasional fiery and enthusiastic disagreement.  However, there
are times when individuals may step beyond the scope of what is considered
reasonable, expected, or acceptable.  Obviously, this is subject to
interpretation and debate, but I'd ask that those passing judgement on
this action take into account that this was given long and hard
consideration, and that it was not a decision taken lightly or without
regret. 

Robert N M Watson             FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects
rob...@fledge.watson.org      Network Associates Laboratories



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From: rs...@online.fr (Rahul Siddharthan)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:03:32 +0000 (UTC)
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Robert Watson wrote:
> The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow
> developers with the civility and respect that they deserve.

Presumably this was on -developers or in private mail, since I can't
find any serious examples in the other archives in the recent past,
but on the contrary, several extremely helpful discussions from him
(on the new scheduler, disk cache expiry etc).

As you say, occasional disagreements and flames are a fact of life.
However, as a lurker and a rather rare poster on the "technical"
lists, my impression is that Matt is one of the most friendly,
enthusiastic and genuinely helpful people around (apart from his
unquestioned merits as a hacker).  If rudeness is a criterion for
having a commit bit removed, surely there must have been several
candidates ahead of Matt in the queue.  Or maybe it was they who
eventually squashed him.

> I'd ask that those passing judgement on
> this action take into account that this was given long and hard
> consideration, and that it was not a decision taken lightly or without
> regret.

I appreciate that, of course.  That doesn't mean the decision doesn't
worry me (or, I imagine, many other people here).

I also scan the linux kernel mailing list now and then, and the
flamewars there dwarf those on the freebsd lists by orders of
magnitude.  Nevertheless, things continue, nobody (afaik) is thrown
out for bad behaviour -- at worst, Linus insists on an intermediary to
filter the discussion/patches -- and very few have ever walked away in
a huff.  Newcomers are made to feel welcome.  In contrast, time and
again newbies complain about the elitist attitude of FreeBSD.  That
can be excused, or at least "argued away", but throwing out someone of
the calibre of Matt Dillon is beyond belief.   Maybe that's the real
reason linux is more successful in the real world.  At least the
FreeBSD core team should think about it.

- Rahul

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From: rwat...@freebsd.org (Robert Watson)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:11:34 +0000 (UTC)
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On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote:

> Robert Watson wrote:
> > The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow
> > developers with the civility and respect that they deserve.
> 
> Presumably this was on -developers or in private mail, since I can't
> find any serious examples in the other archives in the recent past, but
> on the contrary, several extremely helpful discussions from him (on the
> new scheduler, disk cache expiry etc).
> 
> As you say, occasional disagreements and flames are a fact of life. 
> However, as a lurker and a rather rare poster on the "technical"  lists,
> my impression is that Matt is one of the most friendly, enthusiastic and
> genuinely helpful people around (apart from his unquestioned merits as a
> hacker).  If rudeness is a criterion for having a commit bit removed,
> surely there must have been several candidates ahead of Matt in the
> queue.  Or maybe it was they who eventually squashed him. 

While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind
speculation isn't helpful for anyone.

Robert N M Watson             FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects
rob...@fledge.watson.org      Network Associates Laboratories



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From: benja...@seattlefenix.net (Benjamin Krueger)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:54:38 +0000 (UTC)
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* Robert Watson (rwat...@freebsd.org) [030203 14:06]:
> 
> On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote:
> 
> > Robert Watson wrote:
> > > The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow
> > > developers with the civility and respect that they deserve.
> > 
> > Presumably this was on -developers or in private mail, since I can't
> > find any serious examples in the other archives in the recent past, but
> > on the contrary, several extremely helpful discussions from him (on the
> > new scheduler, disk cache expiry etc).
> > 
> > As you say, occasional disagreements and flames are a fact of life. 
> > However, as a lurker and a rather rare poster on the "technical"  lists,
> > my impression is that Matt is one of the most friendly, enthusiastic and
> > genuinely helpful people around (apart from his unquestioned merits as a
> > hacker).  If rudeness is a criterion for having a commit bit removed,
> > surely there must have been several candidates ahead of Matt in the
> > queue.  Or maybe it was they who eventually squashed him. 
> 
> While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind
> speculation isn't helpful for anyone.

You're absolutely right. I'm glad Core is going to explain why a valuable
contributor got the boot. There is no better way to to avoid rumour mongering
and blind speculation. That, after all, can only serve to hurt the project.

> Robert N M Watson             FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects
> rob...@fledge.watson.org      Network Associates Laboratories

Patiently waiting for the full story,

-- 
Benjamin Krueger

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From: rwat...@freebsd.org (Robert Watson)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:06:49 +0000 (UTC)
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On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Benjamin Krueger wrote:

> > While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind
> > speculation isn't helpful for anyone.
> 
> You're absolutely right. I'm glad Core is going to explain why a
> valuable contributor got the boot. There is no better way to to avoid
> rumour mongering and blind speculation. That, after all, can only serve
> to hurt the project. 

Do you really think publishing shopping lists of behavioral problems is
going to solve anything?

Robert N M Watson             FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects
rob...@fledge.watson.org      Network Associates Laboratories



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From: benja...@seattlefenix.net (Benjamin Krueger)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:25:10 +0000 (UTC)
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* Robert Watson (rwat...@freebsd.org) [030203 15:01]:
> 
> On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Benjamin Krueger wrote:
> 
> > > While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind
> > > speculation isn't helpful for anyone.
> > 
> > You're absolutely right. I'm glad Core is going to explain why a
> > valuable contributor got the boot. There is no better way to to avoid
> > rumour mongering and blind speculation. That, after all, can only serve
> > to hurt the project. 
> 
> Do you really think publishing shopping lists of behavioral problems is
> going to solve anything?

At the moment, not explaining any events which may have occured seems to be
hurting the project. This does little to convey a sense of stability or
trust, and the secrecy is causing many to reconsider their participation in
the project. At the very least, it is a matter of respect to the project
community.

Core has nothing to hide, and the project belongs to all involved. If the
move to remove Dillon's commit privileges truly is beneficial to the project,
then why is an explaination of this so difficult to share?

> Robert N M Watson             FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects
> rob...@fledge.watson.org      Network Associates Laboratories

-- 
Benjamin Krueger

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From: g...@FreeBSD.org (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.chat
Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:28:44 +0000 (UTC)
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On Monday,  3 February 2003 at 12:36:43 -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
>
>> Rahul Siddharthan <rs...@online.fr> writes:
>>> [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed]
>>
>> Short version: there was a difference of opinions.
>>
>> As for the long version - there are probably as many versions of this
>> story as there are people involved in it.
>>
>> My advice is to let it lie.
>
> So Matt Dillon, after spending gobs of time learning all that Dyson did
> for us (yet another VM guru driven out), and then improving on it gets the
> same treatment in the end?  John left on his own terms, but from an
> outside observer's view, it was pretty obvious he wasn't missed in -core
> by very many.

It's interesting how outside views can be inaccurate.  dyson *was*
missed.  But we discovered that he was replaceable.

I'd suggest you take a look at recent commit statistics in the VM
subtree.  You may not even recognize the name of the person who's
doing most of the work at the moment.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From: g...@FreeBSD.org (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
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Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:40:24 +0000 (UTC)
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On Monday,  3 February 2003 at 15:19:44 -0800, Benjamin Krueger wrote:
> * Robert Watson (rwat...@freebsd.org) [030203 15:01]:
>>
>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Benjamin Krueger wrote:
>>
>>>> While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind
>>>> speculation isn't helpful for anyone.
>>>
>>> You're absolutely right. I'm glad Core is going to explain why a
>>> valuable contributor got the boot. There is no better way to to avoid
>>> rumour mongering and blind speculation. That, after all, can only serve
>>> to hurt the project.
>>
>> Do you really think publishing shopping lists of behavioral problems is
>> going to solve anything?
>
> At the moment, not explaining any events which may have occured seems to be
> hurting the project. This does little to convey a sense of stability or
> trust, and the secrecy is causing many to reconsider their participation in
> the project. At the very least, it is a matter of respect to the project
> community.
>
> Core has nothing to hide, and the project belongs to all involved. If the
> move to remove Dillon's commit privileges truly is beneficial to the project,
> then why is an explaination of this so difficult to share?

We've already given an explanation.  The problem is, those of you in
this thread don't think it's enough.

Yes, we could do our dirty washing in public.  But that wouldn't be
fair to dillon.  What I can say is that yes, I too have experienced
dillon the way you describe him, friendly, helpful and effective.
Unfortunately, he's not always like that.

Consider that this was an extremely difficult decision to make.  The
fact that it was unanimous--the first time, I think, that we've been
unanimous in anything--should give the clue that whatever the problems
were, we considered them very serious, and they were impacting the
project as a whole.  In addition, we didn't see any prospect for
improvement.

I expect that won't satisfy you.  Sorry about that, but I can't see a
way to satisfy you without being unfair to dillon.

Greg
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